[IknoBall12Participant]

 I was thinking the other day about how much flack MJ gets for running a horrible team over the years and I couldn’t help but think has joe Dumars really been that much better? I mean this is probably the 1 year MJs bobcats has played decent but other than that they’ve been horrible. And with the blunders Dumars has mad through signings and other acquisitions it really just makes me wonder. Thoughts?

[FastAndFuriousParticipant]

 Jordan.

At least Dumars got a ring with his dumb gambles.

 

[FastAndFuriousParticipant]

 Jordan.

At least Dumars got a ring with his dumb gambles.

 

[220Participant]

 Dumars has done a better job running a team than MJ. Dumars team made it to two finals winning one and Dumars has done a vastly better job drafting than MJ. At this point if I was an owner looking to hire one of them for GM I’d be searching for other options because I wouldn’t hire either.

[220Participant]

 Dumars has done a better job running a team than MJ. Dumars team made it to two finals winning one and Dumars has done a vastly better job drafting than MJ. At this point if I was an owner looking to hire one of them for GM I’d be searching for other options because I wouldn’t hire either.

[King CaluchaParticipant]

 There’s no way a team should be so terrible for so long as the Bobcats.

[King CaluchaParticipant]

 There’s no way a team should be so terrible for so long as the Bobcats.

[llperez]

both are horrible but neither holds a candle in suckiness to Isiah Thomas.

[aaucoachParticipant]

 as bad as isiah thomas?isiah turned indy into a power in the east,and brought some great talent into ny.isiah was trying to do the same thing that donny walsh did,which was create cap space to sign lebron.isiah brought zach randolph and crawford into ny.you mean to tell me that ny wouldnt be better off with those 2 as opposed to stoudemire and smith.isiah drafted very well in ny and was able to bring in talent.anybody that ranks isiah up there with jordan and dumars just doesnt know bball,or are too young to know who scott layden is

as far as bad execs go,jordan nor dumars could hold a candle to billy king or chris grant of the cavs

 

 

 

 

[aaucoachParticipant]

 as bad as isiah thomas?isiah turned indy into a power in the east,and brought some great talent into ny.isiah was trying to do the same thing that donny walsh did,which was create cap space to sign lebron.isiah brought zach randolph and crawford into ny.you mean to tell me that ny wouldnt be better off with those 2 as opposed to stoudemire and smith.isiah drafted very well in ny and was able to bring in talent.anybody that ranks isiah up there with jordan and dumars just doesnt know bball,or are too young to know who scott layden is

as far as bad execs go,jordan nor dumars could hold a candle to billy king or chris grant of the cavs

 

 

 

 

[llperez]

 Yeah, I don’t agree with you at all. I could spend the next hour writing why Thomas was the worst gm but just go ahead and google"Thomas worst gm ever" if you have a free evening sometime. He also was given a blank check to spend more then anyone in the league and was in charge of a major market that had been to the finals not too long ago and still couldn’t do anything. 

[llperez]

 Yeah, I don’t agree with you at all. I could spend the next hour writing why Thomas was the worst gm but just go ahead and google"Thomas worst gm ever" if you have a free evening sometime. He also was given a blank check to spend more then anyone in the league and was in charge of a major market that had been to the finals not too long ago and still couldn’t do anything. 

[aaucoachParticipant]

 what would i need to google that for?only terrible contract he signed was jerome james.1 area where he was really poor at was coaching hires,but from a standpoint of evaluating and bringing in talent,he is far superior to guys like jordan,and dumars

[aaucoachParticipant]

 what would i need to google that for?only terrible contract he signed was jerome james.1 area where he was really poor at was coaching hires,but from a standpoint of evaluating and bringing in talent,he is far superior to guys like jordan,and dumars

[hbomb3300Participant]

I think Chris Grant gets a pass in any "worst gm" convo because of the Baron Davis/Kyrie trade, and because a lot of his bad decisions were actually Gilbert’s orders.

[hbomb3300Participant]

I think Chris Grant gets a pass in any "worst gm" convo because of the Baron Davis/Kyrie trade, and because a lot of his bad decisions were actually Gilbert’s orders.

[aaucoachParticipant]

 nah,cant give him a pass.what exactly was his plan in drafting bennet,when he just drafted thompson.i dont think anybody has had a worse run of very high lotto picks than grant.thompson,waiters,bennet is cringe worthy.poor drafting is really why bad teams stay bad.

[aaucoachParticipant]

 nah,cant give him a pass.what exactly was his plan in drafting bennet,when he just drafted thompson.i dont think anybody has had a worse run of very high lotto picks than grant.thompson,waiters,bennet is cringe worthy.poor drafting is really why bad teams stay bad.

[llperez]

both are horrible but neither holds a candle in suckiness to Isiah Thomas.

[GlenTaylorSucksParticipant]

It’s stunning to me that a guy like Jordan is as bad at running a team as he was good at playing. Jordan’s draft record has been nothing short of terrible. The lone bright spots in his track record are Kemba and MKG, and they even have some pretty significant weaknesses, and better players were on the board (Drummond and Beal, for example). Passing over Brook Lopez for Augustin, and picking guys like Ajinca and Biyombo have worked out terribly, and then Jordan decides it’s a good idea to trade for crappy players like Gordon and give up their draft picks. Jordan also has taken on some horrible deals (Tyrus Thomas, Corey Maggette, etc.), hired AWFUL coaches, and just generally placed his faith in questionable players (BJ MULLENS AND JOSH MCROBERTS). It’s no wonder the ‘cats have only made one playoff appearance (as an 8th seed promptly swept).

Dumars at least put together one title team, and had them contending for a while, before offering some of the worst contracts in recent memory (ridiculous overpaying of Gordon/Charlie V, Smith, Prince, Hamilton, etc.) and putting together clearly (well, to everyone else but him) mismatching parts. Dumars has a much better drafting record than Jordan. Even though he epically whiffed with Darko, and to a lesser degree Brandon Knight, he’s made some pretty damn solid draft picks with Drummond, Monroe, Stuckey, Amir Johnson, Jerebko, Singler, KCP, etc. 

[GlenTaylorSucksParticipant]

It’s stunning to me that a guy like Jordan is as bad at running a team as he was good at playing. Jordan’s draft record has been nothing short of terrible. The lone bright spots in his track record are Kemba and MKG, and they even have some pretty significant weaknesses, and better players were on the board (Drummond and Beal, for example). Passing over Brook Lopez for Augustin, and picking guys like Ajinca and Biyombo have worked out terribly, and then Jordan decides it’s a good idea to trade for crappy players like Gordon and give up their draft picks. Jordan also has taken on some horrible deals (Tyrus Thomas, Corey Maggette, etc.), hired AWFUL coaches, and just generally placed his faith in questionable players (BJ MULLENS AND JOSH MCROBERTS). It’s no wonder the ‘cats have only made one playoff appearance (as an 8th seed promptly swept).

Dumars at least put together one title team, and had them contending for a while, before offering some of the worst contracts in recent memory (ridiculous overpaying of Gordon/Charlie V, Smith, Prince, Hamilton, etc.) and putting together clearly (well, to everyone else but him) mismatching parts. Dumars has a much better drafting record than Jordan. Even though he epically whiffed with Darko, and to a lesser degree Brandon Knight, he’s made some pretty damn solid draft picks with Drummond, Monroe, Stuckey, Amir Johnson, Jerebko, Singler, KCP, etc. 

[Scott42444Participant]

 Does Jordan really make all of the personnel decisions?  I thought that Rod Higgins was the GM?  I don’t know if the comparison between the two are apt.  Although, Jordan could be blamed for the bad coaching hires and putting his friends in positions to make decisions instead of maybe the more qualified members of the NBA community (although I believe that Higgins and their head coach are both more than deserving of their current jobs).  Jordan DOES seem to be more hands-on in the day to day operations than many owners.  Really, I think that even a guy like Mark Cuban gets given the credit for personnel moves (and drafting choices) when he is more than likely allowing people to just DO THEIR JOBS that he hired them for.  I don’t really blame Jerry Reinsdorf if the Bulls make a bad free agent signing, and both Reinsdorf and Jordan have the titles of President of Basketball Operations and Majority Owner.  As a matter of fact, I believe that I blame John Paxson more than I should, since he is V.P. of Basketball Operations when Gar Forman is the General Manager of the team.  So much so (and this is common with Bulls fans) that I call them the amalgam name GarPax.  It’s happening with the Chicago White Sox too, since Kenny Williams became the V.P. of Operations and Rick Hahn is now the G.M.  

Anyway, I digress.  I guess the point is that the Pistons have an owner and a player who makes decisions on the personnel.  I don’t know if Jordan should be put into the same category as Dumars because they have different roles within an organization.  Hell, for awhile it didn’t seem as if Jordan was really even all that interested in being around the team for some time. I think that has changed since he became the majority owner of the ‘Cats though (man, I can’t wait for them to change back to the Hornets instead of the Bobcats after their original owner Bob Johnson).  He seems more involved, which is ironic since he now doesn’t HAVE to be as involved as he should have been earlier.  Now that he has been involved more the team is starting to improve a bit.

 

[Scott42444Participant]

 Does Jordan really make all of the personnel decisions?  I thought that Rod Higgins was the GM?  I don’t know if the comparison between the two are apt.  Although, Jordan could be blamed for the bad coaching hires and putting his friends in positions to make decisions instead of maybe the more qualified members of the NBA community (although I believe that Higgins and their head coach are both more than deserving of their current jobs).  Jordan DOES seem to be more hands-on in the day to day operations than many owners.  Really, I think that even a guy like Mark Cuban gets given the credit for personnel moves (and drafting choices) when he is more than likely allowing people to just DO THEIR JOBS that he hired them for.  I don’t really blame Jerry Reinsdorf if the Bulls make a bad free agent signing, and both Reinsdorf and Jordan have the titles of President of Basketball Operations and Majority Owner.  As a matter of fact, I believe that I blame John Paxson more than I should, since he is V.P. of Basketball Operations when Gar Forman is the General Manager of the team.  So much so (and this is common with Bulls fans) that I call them the amalgam name GarPax.  It’s happening with the Chicago White Sox too, since Kenny Williams became the V.P. of Operations and Rick Hahn is now the G.M.  

Anyway, I digress.  I guess the point is that the Pistons have an owner and a player who makes decisions on the personnel.  I don’t know if Jordan should be put into the same category as Dumars because they have different roles within an organization.  Hell, for awhile it didn’t seem as if Jordan was really even all that interested in being around the team for some time. I think that has changed since he became the majority owner of the ‘Cats though (man, I can’t wait for them to change back to the Hornets instead of the Bobcats after their original owner Bob Johnson).  He seems more involved, which is ironic since he now doesn’t HAVE to be as involved as he should have been earlier.  Now that he has been involved more the team is starting to improve a bit.

 

[HitsterParticipant]

 Bit unfair to compare an owner and a team’s top executive. Perhaps we should compare James Dolan and MJ. My initial thought about Dumars is always he’s the guy who drafted Darko.

[HitsterParticipant]

 Bit unfair to compare an owner and a team’s top executive. Perhaps we should compare James Dolan and MJ. My initial thought about Dumars is always he’s the guy who drafted Darko.

[Jester87Participant]

Dumars has been very good in his first years. A bit lucky too, the Grant Hill-Ben Wallace trade didn’t look that good at first and it wouldn’t have been probably without Hill’s injuries, but to his credit he saw something in Ben Wallace nobody else in the league saw. He also made some others good moves and the Pistons were at the top of the Eastern conference for half a decade. It’s a remarkable accomplishment. He drafted Darko over Melo, Wade, Bosh and that’s terrible in a vacuum, but teams don’t operate in a vacuum and I still think Melo was a bad fit in that team and with that coach and since they were in winning now mode you didn’t want to mess up the chemistry. Wade and Bosh just weren’t considered potential #2 picks.

He hasn’t been able to rebuild after that team got old and made some bad mistakes with free agents (Villanueva, Gordon) and those have made his job harder, but he’s also made some good draft picks (Monroe, Drummond). In the end I still think Dumars is a smart basketball mind, every GM, given the chance to work for 10-15 years makes mistakes, even bad ones. Probably his best years in Detroit are gone and it would be better for both him and his team if they split, but I don’t think he’s a bad GM and there are definitely many worse executives around the league. As Chad Ford says, if Detroit fire him it won’t take much before he gets another job and there must be a reason for it.

Jordan has failed both with the Bobcats and with the Wizards. He has so many terrible decisions in his résumé and I have a hard time thinking of good ones. I think it’s a no brainer here, Jordan is definitely worse.

[Jester87Participant]

Dumars has been very good in his first years. A bit lucky too, the Grant Hill-Ben Wallace trade didn’t look that good at first and it wouldn’t have been probably without Hill’s injuries, but to his credit he saw something in Ben Wallace nobody else in the league saw. He also made some others good moves and the Pistons were at the top of the Eastern conference for half a decade. It’s a remarkable accomplishment. He drafted Darko over Melo, Wade, Bosh and that’s terrible in a vacuum, but teams don’t operate in a vacuum and I still think Melo was a bad fit in that team and with that coach and since they were in winning now mode you didn’t want to mess up the chemistry. Wade and Bosh just weren’t considered potential #2 picks.

He hasn’t been able to rebuild after that team got old and made some bad mistakes with free agents (Villanueva, Gordon) and those have made his job harder, but he’s also made some good draft picks (Monroe, Drummond). In the end I still think Dumars is a smart basketball mind, every GM, given the chance to work for 10-15 years makes mistakes, even bad ones. Probably his best years in Detroit are gone and it would be better for both him and his team if they split, but I don’t think he’s a bad GM and there are definitely many worse executives around the league. As Chad Ford says, if Detroit fire him it won’t take much before he gets another job and there must be a reason for it.

Jordan has failed both with the Bobcats and with the Wizards. He has so many terrible decisions in his résumé and I have a hard time thinking of good ones. I think it’s a no brainer here, Jordan is definitely worse.

[Scott42444Participant]

 Yes, but Dumars hasn’t been able to fix his mistakes.  You need to be able to make wise, swift moves when you misfire on a draft pick or free agent signing.  The issues are 2 major free agent signing periods in a row.  Period.  Gordon and Villanueva were terrible overpaid.  But, let’s give him the benefit of the doubt and say that the CBA changed on him and made those signings worse than they originally were supposed to be.  He traded Gordon to Charlotte (with a 1st round pick, which will probably net a starter this year at around #10) to clear cap space to move Brandon Knight for Brandon Jennings (okay move, I guess, although I don’t really like it I can’t really hate it) and then to completely OVERPAY Josh Smith.  This mistake is wrong 3 ways.  They gave up a 2014 1st rounder, they overpaid for limited production in Josh Smith, but worst of all they will probably have to let Greg Monroe walk (even as an UFA) in order to afford Drummond when the time comes (the team’s best asset by FAR) and also to move Smith to the #4 which is where he can actually contribute up to his contract.

He’s just compounding mistakes on top of each other.  Look at the Bulls.  GarPax aren’t perfect, either.  They had Lamarcus Aldridge (who won’t win the award, but will get some MVP votes this year) and traded him for Tyrus Thomas (who is out of the league) and Victor Kryhapa (sp?) who is out of the league.  They drafted James Johnson, who just wasn’t a good fit on the team.  Marquis Teague is another one, although he was the #28 pick, which isn’t expected to do much in most drafts.  The other 2 guys drafted were #2 and #16.  Tyrus Thomas wasn’t a terrible pick at the time, since he actually was one of the Top 3 players in defensive efficiency in his rookie season.  But, over time it became noticeable that it was a bad pick.  They flipped Thomas to Charlotte (Jordan, lol) for what is probably going to be a pick in the #11-#16 range in this year’s draft.  Not good when compared to a #2 pick, but good in that Thomas isn’t even playing in the NBA right now.  Johnson was moved to Toronto for pieces that would eventually become Jimmy Butler and Nikola Mirotic.  They were able to minimize the bleeding, so to speak.  I think that is what Dumars doesn’t do well.  He makes mistakes, which every GM does, but he doesn’t fix those mistakes.  He actually just makes more.

Also, saying that Wade and Bosh weren’t considered #2 picks is fine.  But, saying that Darko WAS considered by most a #2 pick is stretching it.  Also, saying that the team picked someone who fit their roster when they took Darko would only work if he were NBA ready.  I always think a team should go for the generational talent (9 time All-Star, which I think Melo, Wade, and Bosh all are at least) every time.  But, they were in a Championship run so I can see them going for best fit.  Darko was NOT ready.  That doesn’t apply with him.  He was a developmental pick when there were NBA ready talents (Carmelo had just come off an NCAA Championship run where he was just amazing) sitting there for the taking.

Anyway, I respect your knowledge and opinion but I just disagree.  Maybe I am blind to it because I am a Bulls fan and MJ played for the Bulls and Dumars was one of the Bad Boys.  I don’t think so but it’s possible, lol.

 

 

[Scott42444Participant]

 Yes, but Dumars hasn’t been able to fix his mistakes.  You need to be able to make wise, swift moves when you misfire on a draft pick or free agent signing.  The issues are 2 major free agent signing periods in a row.  Period.  Gordon and Villanueva were terrible overpaid.  But, let’s give him the benefit of the doubt and say that the CBA changed on him and made those signings worse than they originally were supposed to be.  He traded Gordon to Charlotte (with a 1st round pick, which will probably net a starter this year at around #10) to clear cap space to move Brandon Knight for Brandon Jennings (okay move, I guess, although I don’t really like it I can’t really hate it) and then to completely OVERPAY Josh Smith.  This mistake is wrong 3 ways.  They gave up a 2014 1st rounder, they overpaid for limited production in Josh Smith, but worst of all they will probably have to let Greg Monroe walk (even as an UFA) in order to afford Drummond when the time comes (the team’s best asset by FAR) and also to move Smith to the #4 which is where he can actually contribute up to his contract.

He’s just compounding mistakes on top of each other.  Look at the Bulls.  GarPax aren’t perfect, either.  They had Lamarcus Aldridge (who won’t win the award, but will get some MVP votes this year) and traded him for Tyrus Thomas (who is out of the league) and Victor Kryhapa (sp?) who is out of the league.  They drafted James Johnson, who just wasn’t a good fit on the team.  Marquis Teague is another one, although he was the #28 pick, which isn’t expected to do much in most drafts.  The other 2 guys drafted were #2 and #16.  Tyrus Thomas wasn’t a terrible pick at the time, since he actually was one of the Top 3 players in defensive efficiency in his rookie season.  But, over time it became noticeable that it was a bad pick.  They flipped Thomas to Charlotte (Jordan, lol) for what is probably going to be a pick in the #11-#16 range in this year’s draft.  Not good when compared to a #2 pick, but good in that Thomas isn’t even playing in the NBA right now.  Johnson was moved to Toronto for pieces that would eventually become Jimmy Butler and Nikola Mirotic.  They were able to minimize the bleeding, so to speak.  I think that is what Dumars doesn’t do well.  He makes mistakes, which every GM does, but he doesn’t fix those mistakes.  He actually just makes more.

Also, saying that Wade and Bosh weren’t considered #2 picks is fine.  But, saying that Darko WAS considered by most a #2 pick is stretching it.  Also, saying that the team picked someone who fit their roster when they took Darko would only work if he were NBA ready.  I always think a team should go for the generational talent (9 time All-Star, which I think Melo, Wade, and Bosh all are at least) every time.  But, they were in a Championship run so I can see them going for best fit.  Darko was NOT ready.  That doesn’t apply with him.  He was a developmental pick when there were NBA ready talents (Carmelo had just come off an NCAA Championship run where he was just amazing) sitting there for the taking.

Anyway, I respect your knowledge and opinion but I just disagree.  Maybe I am blind to it because I am a Bulls fan and MJ played for the Bulls and Dumars was one of the Bad Boys.  I don’t think so but it’s possible, lol.

 

 

[Author]

Posts