[treytalkssports.comParticipant]

It’s a fad to recognize, with the Warriors small-ball championship, that the NBA has shifted away from big men and you don’t need a dominate big man to win a championship. 

I think this the tail end of a movement that was necessitated by a dearth of quality big man prospects. From 2000-2010, very few big man prospects come out and succeeded in the NBA, compared to other decades. Busts throughout the decade like Brown, Curry, Swift, Tskitishvili, Ming (injuries), Wilcox, Milicic, Kaman, Okafor (relatively), Swift (Robert), Bynum, Bargnani, Williams (Sheldon), O’Bryant, Oden, Jianlian, Thabeet, and Udoh, have left the NBA woefully depleted of quality big man. The natural result of this is that small ball would take over, and per possession stats would support the idea that pick-and-roll basketball and open court basketball are more efficient than postup basketball, because there were so few good postup players. 

I don’t think small ball is completely gone, but like a Pheonix from the ashes, big men are going to resurrect and reinvent the way they do basketball, and the NBA will shift back towards needing big men to win championships.

Just consider the past 5 drafts of big men: Favors, Cousins, Monroe, Valancunas (2011 big men mostly busted), Davis, Drummond, Leonard, Len, Noel, Adams, Gobert, Embiid, Nurkic, and this year has Okafor, Cauley-Stein, Anthony-Towns, Porzingis, and Turner. 

I’m not saying that all these players are going to pan out, but I think the pendulum is swinging back. The effects of this movement, and how the game will change, will not be fully seen for at least another 5 years, because many of the players will need time to develop and teams will need to adapt to learn to use them. 

But I don’t think all these big men will be confined to spotups, clean ups, or picks on offense for their entire careers. I think many of these bigs will develop versatile offensive games. 

In fact, I think many of those big men could be max players, which is something we don’t have a lot of in the NBA right now. 

Rather than reacting to the tail end of one NBA movement, a smart team will anticipate the swing back toward big man. For that reason, especially if I am a team that is at least 4-5 years away from being a contender, then I am picking a big man, because I think your going to need one to win a championship. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kingofbumsParticipant]

 Yao ming a bust? What in the world….injuries may have shorten his career but he played long enough and was definitely good enough to not be called a bust. Same with bynum…he wasnt really a "bust"

[kingofbumsParticipant]

 Yao ming a bust? What in the world….injuries may have shorten his career but he played long enough and was definitely good enough to not be called a bust. Same with bynum…he wasnt really a "bust"

[treytalkssports.comParticipant]

 Don’t nitpick – Obviously when they played they weren’t busts, but because of their short careers, the NBA had fewer qualitiy big men. My point was to show how many big there were in those drafts that did not succeed, long-term in the NBA, which led to a dearth of quality big men and a rise of small ball. 

[treytalkssports.comParticipant]

 Don’t nitpick – Obviously when they played they weren’t busts, but because of their short careers, the NBA had fewer qualitiy big men. My point was to show how many big there were in those drafts that did not succeed, long-term in the NBA, which led to a dearth of quality big men and a rise of small ball. 

[NBAjunkie81Participant]

 The fact is Legit 7 footers who can score & defend are more rare than white tigers but talent goes in cycles… B/c the college game has been exceoriated by Mega talents entering the Draft early & No longer playin a full four years in college we are begiining to see some VERY weak drafts in terms of Guards… the ONLY legit Guard in this 2015 Draft is Mudiay & he has major holes in his game… a guy like D’Angelo Russell is NO WAY entering the Draft after one year under normal or older circumstances… In this Decade 2010 – 2020 we are now seeing an Uptick in Mega – Talent Bigs… Boogie Cousins, Anthony Davis, Nerlens Noel, Joel Embiid, Karl Anthony Towns & Jahlil Okafor are all Future Stars drafted from 2010 on & will Dominate by the end of the Decade… Yao Ming & bynum certainly had their careers shortened by injuries but Neither was a bust… Bynum was a HUGE part of the Lakers two rings in 09 & 10′ & after barely playing his first two seasons, Bynum had 4 straight years where he played 50 – 65 games plus ALL the Lakers playoff games including 23 playoff games in Each of the Championship years… Bynum Averaged 15 pts, 11 reb, 2 blocks & 50+% FG shooting during those 4 years… In the 2012, Bynum’s final year before the Sixers were suckered into Wrecking their whole Franchise by trading for him Bynum AVERAGED 19 points, 12 rebounds, 2 blocks & shot a fg% of 56%! while playing 77 games between reg season & playoffs… Bynum was SO respected that Phila traded their TWO Best players (Igudola & Nic Vucevick) & TWO 1st round draft picks (2012 & 2017) for Bynum & it was considered a GREAT move by Phila. In fact, Bynum was SO well respected that Phila was Immediately installed as a Top 3 team in the East (Miami, Indiana, Phila) depending on Bynum’s CONTINUED health… Bynum was ONLY 25 years old when Phila traded for him… Yao Money Grip Ming (as he was known to opponents & teamates) was an absolute BEAST… When you consider that had Ming, Oden & Bynum all stayed healthy we would NOT be talking about a Guard / Small Ball League… B/c ALL 3 men were potentially dominant & a Legit 7 foot +… Ming was Drafted in 2002 # 1 overall – in front of Duke star Jay Williams a future Superstar Guard who we NEVER talk about his tragic career ending injury –  in a VERY weak Draft… But like Most drafts, that ONLY produce 1 – 3 Legit stars, Ming was a Star… At Mings peak he averaged 25 points, 11 rebounds, 2 blocks & 52% FG% – Overall his Career Averages were 19 points, 9 rebounds, 2 blocks & 52% FG% – these are Phenomenal Stats! Over an 8 year career – he barely played that final year… But Ming was perfectly healthy his first 3 years. It wasn;t until his 4th year that Yao began to miss time. After playing 82, 82 & 80 games those first 3 years, he dropped down to 57, 48 & 55 games over the Next 3 years but in his 7th season he played 77 games & put up his usual Great #’s & hopes were high going into 2011. But that year he played a mere 5 games & was Never seen again… Where Many NBA Bigs are actuallty Under 6’10” when measured W/O shoes at the scouting combine, Yao was an amzing 7’6” & he was a HUGE man…. But you are 100% correct that both Bynum & Ming were Great players who Both played at a Star level for 5+ years & while wondering what they would have accomplished had they had more time is frustrating, they can Hardly be called busts b/c running on an NBA hardcourt 82 games a year + playoffs exacts a Mighty Toll on a human body – especially at weights of 300+ lbs & as a result MANY careers end before their time… 

[NBAjunkie81Participant]

 The fact is Legit 7 footers who can score & defend are more rare than white tigers but talent goes in cycles… B/c the college game has been exceoriated by Mega talents entering the Draft early & No longer playin a full four years in college we are begiining to see some VERY weak drafts in terms of Guards… the ONLY legit Guard in this 2015 Draft is Mudiay & he has major holes in his game… a guy like D’Angelo Russell is NO WAY entering the Draft after one year under normal or older circumstances… In this Decade 2010 – 2020 we are now seeing an Uptick in Mega – Talent Bigs… Boogie Cousins, Anthony Davis, Nerlens Noel, Joel Embiid, Karl Anthony Towns & Jahlil Okafor are all Future Stars drafted from 2010 on & will Dominate by the end of the Decade… Yao Ming & bynum certainly had their careers shortened by injuries but Neither was a bust… Bynum was a HUGE part of the Lakers two rings in 09 & 10′ & after barely playing his first two seasons, Bynum had 4 straight years where he played 50 – 65 games plus ALL the Lakers playoff games including 23 playoff games in Each of the Championship years… Bynum Averaged 15 pts, 11 reb, 2 blocks & 50+% FG shooting during those 4 years… In the 2012, Bynum’s final year before the Sixers were suckered into Wrecking their whole Franchise by trading for him Bynum AVERAGED 19 points, 12 rebounds, 2 blocks & shot a fg% of 56%! while playing 77 games between reg season & playoffs… Bynum was SO respected that Phila traded their TWO Best players (Igudola & Nic Vucevick) & TWO 1st round draft picks (2012 & 2017) for Bynum & it was considered a GREAT move by Phila. In fact, Bynum was SO well respected that Phila was Immediately installed as a Top 3 team in the East (Miami, Indiana, Phila) depending on Bynum’s CONTINUED health… Bynum was ONLY 25 years old when Phila traded for him… Yao Money Grip Ming (as he was known to opponents & teamates) was an absolute BEAST… When you consider that had Ming, Oden & Bynum all stayed healthy we would NOT be talking about a Guard / Small Ball League… B/c ALL 3 men were potentially dominant & a Legit 7 foot +… Ming was Drafted in 2002 # 1 overall – in front of Duke star Jay Williams a future Superstar Guard who we NEVER talk about his tragic career ending injury –  in a VERY weak Draft… But like Most drafts, that ONLY produce 1 – 3 Legit stars, Ming was a Star… At Mings peak he averaged 25 points, 11 rebounds, 2 blocks & 52% FG% – Overall his Career Averages were 19 points, 9 rebounds, 2 blocks & 52% FG% – these are Phenomenal Stats! Over an 8 year career – he barely played that final year… But Ming was perfectly healthy his first 3 years. It wasn;t until his 4th year that Yao began to miss time. After playing 82, 82 & 80 games those first 3 years, he dropped down to 57, 48 & 55 games over the Next 3 years but in his 7th season he played 77 games & put up his usual Great #’s & hopes were high going into 2011. But that year he played a mere 5 games & was Never seen again… Where Many NBA Bigs are actuallty Under 6’10” when measured W/O shoes at the scouting combine, Yao was an amzing 7’6” & he was a HUGE man…. But you are 100% correct that both Bynum & Ming were Great players who Both played at a Star level for 5+ years & while wondering what they would have accomplished had they had more time is frustrating, they can Hardly be called busts b/c running on an NBA hardcourt 82 games a year + playoffs exacts a Mighty Toll on a human body – especially at weights of 300+ lbs & as a result MANY careers end before their time… 

[mike_r232Participant]

 This is interesting to bring up.  There are teams that can certainly win with small ball, but I agree, I think big men are still important.  The Warriors had a perfect opponent to go completely small with since the Cavs don’t have an all star big to counter balance their strategy.  It’s interesting that we had seen previous reports of a possibility of Okafor falling to pick #4 (has since corrected itself).  In years past, teams would die to be able to pick Okafor at #1 or #2.  He’s an incredibly talented scorer with great size that required double and triple teams every time he touched the ball.  I think the last few years, and this year, have brought some good bigs back into the game.  So bigs are certainly not dead, but overall big man talent was just down over the last few years. 

If you had told me a couple years ago that the Warriors would win a championhip, but would barely play David Lee or Andrew Bogut, I would not have believed you.

 

 

[mike_r232Participant]

 This is interesting to bring up.  There are teams that can certainly win with small ball, but I agree, I think big men are still important.  The Warriors had a perfect opponent to go completely small with since the Cavs don’t have an all star big to counter balance their strategy.  It’s interesting that we had seen previous reports of a possibility of Okafor falling to pick #4 (has since corrected itself).  In years past, teams would die to be able to pick Okafor at #1 or #2.  He’s an incredibly talented scorer with great size that required double and triple teams every time he touched the ball.  I think the last few years, and this year, have brought some good bigs back into the game.  So bigs are certainly not dead, but overall big man talent was just down over the last few years. 

If you had told me a couple years ago that the Warriors would win a championhip, but would barely play David Lee or Andrew Bogut, I would not have believed you.

 

 

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 A dominant big man that can score and draw double teams from the low post will always have value in the NBA. However, I definitely wouldn’t say that the NBA is shifting in that direction. If anything, its the other way around, as more teams are beginning to realize that it’s more efficient to create good looks through the pick and roll and spreading the floor with shooters. 

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 A dominant big man that can score and draw double teams from the low post will always have value in the NBA. However, I definitely wouldn’t say that the NBA is shifting in that direction. If anything, its the other way around, as more teams are beginning to realize that it’s more efficient to create good looks through the pick and roll and spreading the floor with shooters. 

[ballislyfe25Participant]

I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s more efficient than a dominant low post big man as much as I’d say it’s easier to find players who can effectively run the pick and roll. Teams are more likely to find a guard who excels in the pick and roll game (and benefits from the rules/way the game is officiated) than a Hakeem, Demarcus Cousins, or even a Zach Randolph. Both types of players command a double team, and the post up big commands it closer to the basket.

The smartest teams will utilize all of their players skills (especially the best players) and the weapons at their disposal and not fit them into a system. The Spurs, for all of the talk about their "system", developed the way the have because of the great players they have had on their roster. The role players are the ones that they can be selective about and their great scouting and coaching maximizes the players they do get. 

At the end of the day, this is basketball and players should aim be well rounded and excel in multiple facets of the game. I enjoy the player who can play on the block but also take his man off the bounce or be a proficient screen and roll player.

[ballislyfe25Participant]

I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s more efficient than a dominant low post big man as much as I’d say it’s easier to find players who can effectively run the pick and roll. Teams are more likely to find a guard who excels in the pick and roll game (and benefits from the rules/way the game is officiated) than a Hakeem, Demarcus Cousins, or even a Zach Randolph. Both types of players command a double team, and the post up big commands it closer to the basket.

The smartest teams will utilize all of their players skills (especially the best players) and the weapons at their disposal and not fit them into a system. The Spurs, for all of the talk about their "system", developed the way the have because of the great players they have had on their roster. The role players are the ones that they can be selective about and their great scouting and coaching maximizes the players they do get. 

At the end of the day, this is basketball and players should aim be well rounded and excel in multiple facets of the game. I enjoy the player who can play on the block but also take his man off the bounce or be a proficient screen and roll player.

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 That’s kind of the point I was trying to make except you said it better. Of course, you have to play to your personnel. If you have a prime shaq, Duncan or even demarcus cousins on your team then you dump the ball into the post and create offense through that. You just have to makesure that you surround them with shooters and playmakers that can be effective out of a double team. The rockets and Lakers teams that won titles used this strategy to perfection and you could absolutely still win with it today with the right personell.

There just aren’t that many big men today that are effective enough in the low post and good enough passers to the point that you can consistently generate a quality look from pounding the ball inside. Meanwhile, the number of quality guards is probably higher than ever. Also, a lot of the more promising young bigs that have come into the league since 2000 haven’t really been able to stay healthy.

 

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 That’s kind of the point I was trying to make except you said it better. Of course, you have to play to your personnel. If you have a prime shaq, Duncan or even demarcus cousins on your team then you dump the ball into the post and create offense through that. You just have to makesure that you surround them with shooters and playmakers that can be effective out of a double team. The rockets and Lakers teams that won titles used this strategy to perfection and you could absolutely still win with it today with the right personell.

There just aren’t that many big men today that are effective enough in the low post and good enough passers to the point that you can consistently generate a quality look from pounding the ball inside. Meanwhile, the number of quality guards is probably higher than ever. Also, a lot of the more promising young bigs that have come into the league since 2000 haven’t really been able to stay healthy.

 

[bumbleb33Participant]

 definitely not shifting back to big men, at least not traditional low post big men. There is just a lack of truly skilled big men in the league. Anthony davis will become a stretch 5 and perform a similar role to draymond green. Demarcus cousins is pretty good but I dont think he is so dominant offensively that he can outscore smallball from the paint.

[bumbleb33Participant]

 definitely not shifting back to big men, at least not traditional low post big men. There is just a lack of truly skilled big men in the league. Anthony davis will become a stretch 5 and perform a similar role to draymond green. Demarcus cousins is pretty good but I dont think he is so dominant offensively that he can outscore smallball from the paint.

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