[dipt1982Participant]

OK, So here is a question that’s been on my mind, would love to get some insight from the rest of you.

Will there ever be another superstar American White Guy. Another Larry Bird, or Tom Chambers? It seems like they never pan out nowadays. The league has seen a few over the past decade or so, but none have lived up to the hype. Adam Morrison anyone? LOL. Just a topic that I thought would draw some good conversation.

Is there a reason for this, or is it just the fact that white guys are not athletic enough to survive in the league today?

Also, does anybody think Larry Bird could be competitive in today’s NBA? He was a legend, no doubt, but the game was different back then. Any opinions…?

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

The best pt guard in the world Steve Nash…. and Larry Birds shot would still be going in 100 yrs from now.

[PaulsJayhawksParticipant]

Not too shaby either.

[llperez]

he said american, but sure there will be another white star someday. Dont know when. DOnt know if that next white superstar will be an mvp type or just a top 10 player. But its bound to happen sooner or later. I dont much care though personally.

[bobforteParticipant]

Yes, its not that white players aren’t athletic enough. Its more that as a kid most blacks think that there only way to be sucessful is through sports. So thats what they spend most of their time doing. Where as whites have had more oppurtunites meaning sports werent as heavily played. I think eventually we will have a star it might be 5 years it might be 15 but at some time there will be anohter great white player. I think Larry would be good but defensively he would prb struggle, but he would still score. If you disagree please let me know why?

[dipt1982Participant]

Nash is Canadien and Dirk is European…just a food for thought topic…

[bobforteParticipant]

Haha i dont know why i got minus points for that tell me why? I dont really care but i’d like to hear your opinion and debate it but i suppose that would be too hard for most of you.

[SteroidParticipant]

I have to disagree with you. Black people spending their time playing sports and white people having other choices doesn’t necessarily have an impact on not a lot of white americans being in the NBA. Hockey is dominated by whites and baseball is dominated by whites and latino-americans which most of them are white. It’s just that a white person, while growing up in america, are discouraged from playing basketball because they are, indeed, told that they aren’t athletic enough and can’t jump high as a black guy. This mindset is instilled in a lot of young white americans directly and indirectly. Ever wonder why there are a lot of international white NBA players that are more successful than the american born white? It’s because they aren’t affected by this stigma or stereotye. Wondered why Spain played the USA so hard in the Olympics? It’s because they aren’t affected by that stigma.

[ummm…LooneyParticipant]

im white…and i just turned 17…we’ll see.

[bobforteParticipant]

ok i can see that but that makes it more the self fulfilling prophecy than they arent athletic. THanks Steroid for giving your opinion. But Does that mean you dont think there will be a great american white player then?

[dipt1982Participant]

I don’t think there’s a stigma at all, I just don’t think most white guys can’t perform at as high of a level as the rest. I mean really, the way the game is today, most players (black) are extremely athletic and very speedy guys. You just don’t see that with most white guys, I really can’t pinpoint why? There are a lot of decent white guys in the league, Steve Blake, Kevin Love, JJ Redick, Chris Kaman, but they all lack the explosiveness to be a superstar type guy.

I really don’t care, just thought this topic would be good debate, because it’s so true…

[huff09Participant]

Im not aware of any white guys coming up through the ranks that could be an NBA all star, and the only young white american in the league currently that has the potential to become a very good player/all star would be chase budinger. But on the level of Bird or somebody similar..no.

[dipt1982Participant]

^^ Exactly, Budinger can be very good, but that’s the point I’m getting at. There’s always a ‘new Jordan’ or ‘new Kobe’ or ‘next McGrady’. Will there ever be a ‘new Bird’?

[llperez]

KLove could potentially be a 20-10 guy. But he probably wont ever be what you would call a star.

[goneParticipant]

Its because most of the minority population grows up poor not saying there are some poor white families but when you are in the ghetto you see sports as ur only way out

[dipt1982Participant]

True, Kevin Love is good, I just honestly don’t think he is that great. He seems under sized, but he gets it done…

It’s funny to watch the college game where a good amount of white guys are stars, Morrison, Reddick, Freddette, but they never translate well to the NBA game…I just don’t know why?

[dipt1982Participant]

Yeah WizKid, I agree to a point. I mean, not trying to argue, but is your point that white people just don’t like basketball enough, or see it as a means to be successful???

[WrecklessParticipant]

Its just a matter of interest in my opinion.
To be honest, I dont care if youre Black, White, Green, Yellow, Or sky blue, as long as you can play ball your fine by me.

Im black and up where i live (here in Detroit), you’d rarely see any white guys hooping at The gyms.
Its just how it is though.

[SteroidParticipant]

Yeah, I believe there will be a white-american superstar one day. I’m sure there are a lot of talented white-american basketball players. It’s just that it would be more likely for one to show up if more whites in america were encouraged to play the game.

The mindset of americans has to play a part because otherwise, it wouldn’t make sense for there to be more international white players in the NBA than american bred ones.

[bobforteParticipant]

It can’t be athleticsm. Im white i have a 38 inch vertical run a 4.61 40 which i know isnt all that fast problem is im only 5’9. I played national intramurals and im not that great a player but ill tell you what its not becasue of athletism. Now im not bragging im just saying that white people can be athletic there has to be another reason. And i do agree there is a stigma and i still believe it matters how much your playing. Its social not biological. Steriod you bring up a good point though think about hockey and how canadians dominate why? They play it all the time. Soccer? European and South American teams play all the time. Its not that Canadians skate better or that those soccer players have more feet cordination thats just dumb. Currentley there might not be a american born white player that has the potential to be a star but there will be.

[llperez]

there are a few reasons to come in to play i think. Athleticism is one big one. ANd where i grew up, white guys just didnt play ball very much or take it as seriously as black guys. On my varisty team my senior year, i was the only white guy on the 15 man squad. My teammates played all the time and we took it personal when we had bad games or someone showed us up. My white friends would just get pissed and walk off the court or joke around. It just wasnt as important to them. Having game was like a status quo for black guys like it was a badge of honor if you were respected for your game and your skills. I was the same way, but didnt know too many other white guys like that.

[bobforteParticipant]

Ma-Ma-Mama Said your right it really doesnt matter if you can play you can play. But what you said the the second part is you rarely see white guys hooping and thats just it.

[llperez]

lets be honest here, overall white players are not as athletic. Just like a week ago the very first white person ever was recorded with a 100m under 10 seconds. There have been about 35 black sprinters recorded under 10 seconds. I think running is about as diverse a sport as there is so it cant be chalked up to cultural as to why white people dont sprint as fast.

[mbdParticipant]

Sprinting NO Running Yes. Most sprinters are black long distance alot more whites compete in those If it was the 400 or something like that you would have a point. Shoot the most athletic dude in my high school was white ran a 4.4 and had a 35 inch vertical

[mbdParticipant]

not anytime soon its just mentality. Larry Bird had the mentality that nobody was better black or white. Plus he loved comp loved playing against better players it just seems like a lot not all whites are afraid to go play in the hood Bird wasnt.I only know one white guy with that mentality and he isnt going to the NBA anytime soon lol

[dipt1982Participant]

I agree llperez, Im a white guy, but I guess my drive is kind of in the minority for white guys. I hated losing, and I basically played with black guys all my life, and for the most part older black guys. I enjoyed playing with my friends who happened to be black more often because they took it more seriously, it was more competition to me.

[mbdParticipant]

Exactly most white guys dont have that mentality its like they are afraid of competition.

[SteroidParticipant]

This is a good read backing up my thoughts about this.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/18/AR2006021801482.html

[SteroidParticipant]

“I see it at summer camps. The makeup and attitude of the white kids has changed so much. No question it’s the parents and their peer groups talking them off of it. A black kid of average talent in elementary or middle school is much more likely to be encouraged. A white kid of equal talent is going to move to baseball or something non-sports. They totally get discouraged to travel that athletic path, and it’s been happening for years.

“My father begged me to not play basketball. I was a really good baseball player, and he thought I had a better chance at playing in the major leagues. But I loved basketball. For a white player to succeed in basketball, he’s got to have a backbone. He’s got to have that competitive mentality and play with a chip on his shoulder.”

[llperez]

mbd, so becasue i brought up sprinting where it’s 35 to 1 I dont have a point?

[mbdParticipant]

Their arent that many whites that are sprinters can u name one? Sprinting is not a diverse sport is the point i was making because you said that it was one.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

White guys (I know) are conditioned to having a plans for the future (college degree/trade) as well as dreams of sport. They typically calculate the odds of success and decide their future based on that thinking. We don’t live in the “hood” so were not trying to get out of the “hood”. That in itself is plenty of incentive for minority youths to suceed at b-ball/football. This only my oppinion based on my own experiences and experiences of friends I grew up with and in no way is meant to offend anybody.

[mbdParticipant]

No offense at all from my experience blacks and whites both want the same thing to have a better life. I know plenty of white ppl in the hood it justs depends on the person their are different factors for each person. I also agree with you that some blacks are conditoned to think that the only way to get out of the hood is to hoop or play a sports not all but some. Its changing though because you have to have a backup plan. I use basketball as a tool to get where i need to go most of my friends that hoop do too,white and black

[bobforteParticipant]

great article Steriod. IIperez im not disagreeing but of those times a couple were in the 60s some in the 80’s most were in the 90’s and 2000’s. Look up the progression of sprinting times have gotten faster. A lot of runners in the 20’s through 60s running 10.6 to 10.2 were white. Yeah times have gotten faster but whos doing the running. Its the same arguement what the american whites are being told with sprinting and basketball. What about White quarterbacks are they smarter? No, its what kids are being told.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

If you are talking track athletes… it’s an incomplete study the same way bicycling would be do to the proliferation of PEDs/blood doping. In other words… they are all dirty like all users.

[RUDEBOY_Participant]

lol..People seem to forget..That in the 70’s the NBA was known as a drug infested,too black league.Attendence was poor,teams were losing money..And the Finals ”WERE ON TAPE DELAY”’..Did yall hear me?The Finals were shown after thelate local news on CBS..Back then…So the media needed a white superstar to become the face of the league.. Someone to draw the white fans..And that guy was Bird…Some people thought the Rookie of the Year Award should’ve been a tie..But Bird won the rookie of the year over Magic who lead his team to the title that year..

I think Kevin Love have the talent to be a top 15 player in the league..Not sure how much endorsements he’ll get playing in Minnesota..But he has the charm & personality that draws fans..I will not be surprised if he leads the NBA in rebounding next season or made the All-Star team..

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

Graduation rates suggest otherwise… school needs to be the priority we all know, but it isn’t in many communities.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

What was your point… what do you remember personally from that time that leads you to your conclusion?

[ChewyParticipant]

Josh McRoberts! I don’t mean he SPECIFICALLY will be the next big star, but there are white american players out there that can be like him. McRoberts is 6’10, won a hs slam dunk contest, has a good looking form of his shot, and can pass the ball amazingly well. I have no idea why he has not put it together, but the next 6’10 skilled white american might….

[omphalosParticipant]

Wow, this is a surprisingly well thought out and mature discussion. I’m what you would call an “international” white guy from Australia. We have a fairly small black population over here, and I’ve never had too much experience playing black dudes. However, the few times I have I’ve loved it. They are generally more athletic and quick, I remember being the fastest on my team and getting caught easily on a break by three of their black players.

However, I’m about as competitive as a person can be this side of Mike and I’d like nothing more than to play ball. The only problem is, I didn’t develop this attitude until I was too old to really make something of myself on the court. I definitely agree that most white guys don’t appreciate basketball at a young age.

But, there is one kid I’m coaching at the moment who has a chance to play at least college ball if he grows a little bit more. I’m trying to teach him to be competitive more than anything, because his skills are already pretty sharp.

Oh, and a note on Redick, I remember hearing during the first Magic game that JJ performed the best in the athleticism tests this year. You wouldn’t know it from looking at him.

[WrecklessParticipant]

Is david lee white?

[omphalosParticipant]

Is Blake Griffin considered white? He’s got a black dad I’m pretty sure.

[mbdParticipant]

naw he is Black.

[SubZeroParticipant]

Well I hope I can make it, but I gotta walk on at college in 2 years first…just gotta keep doing that P-90X plyo lol

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

Blakes mother is white and a red head.

[goneParticipant]

I guarantee is Michael Jordan was white more white players would be scouted and drafted cuz its all bout finding the next somebody

[RUDEBOY_Participant]

What do u mean?

the fact that i said Love could be a top 15 or 20 player in the league?

or do u mean the fact that gm’s dont seem to be lookin at color these days.

most fans dont care if a team is all black as long as they’re winning..even if the team is all black..white fans will find a favorite player on that team to cheer for..

i’ve been following the NBA for years.. and 3 teams always have at least 1 white player on their team almost every year..

those teams are Utah,Boston & Indiana..check their rosters for the past 20 years…
i’m not saying those teams are racists but i’m saying they have had a white player on their roster every year….

maybe they feel they have to for community reasons..

[llperez]

landry fields has a white mom and black dad although im not sure if they are both his biological or not, just saw him with them at senior night this past year.

[SteroidParticipant]

The white quarterback is a good analogy to what happens in the NBA with white players. It’s the stereotypes and stigmas that affect the sports community more than anything else.

Education is important and that is the only way some black kids can afford to go to college is if they get a basketball or sports scholarship. Not everyone is smart enough or have the background to get college fully paid for. Whites get pushed into other things, but it is not because they are less athletic. Strictly talking sports, most white kids get pushed into baseball over basketball mainly because of the “less athletic” stereotype. I wouldn’t say all blacks don’t take education seriously. Like I said, sports is some people’s only way out to be able to go to school, and black parents really push their kids to do something because sports can pay for school and it keeps their children out of trouble. In some cases it adds discipline too. Kids doing one-and-done is on a whole other subject, but honestly, if you have a shot a being a lottery pick and make more money in the next couple of years than what you would with a college degree for your entire life, why would you pass that down? That’s asinine if you blame a kid that talented for doing that.

[llperez]

but if whites are just as athletic as blacks and the only difference is that whites are being pushed into other things, then howcome we dont see any amazing atheltic white euro players? I mean when you take into account all the white people who DO play basketball around the world, shouldnt the NBA have somebody more athletic representing white people then CHase Buddinger and josh McRoberts? Where i grew up, it didnt matter how long they played basketball or how seriously they took the sport. Black athletes were better ahtletes and picked up on basketball football track and field faster and easier. Isaw it growing up in my neghborhood. I see it in college. I see it in the pros. At what point do i stop calling it a coincidence and call it like i see it that black athletes are generally speaking more athletic?

[mbdParticipant]

Idk i mean look at Tim Tebow, Sam Bradford i know alot of white boys with 35 inch or more verticals. Shoot what about Drazen Pertovic or Toni Kukoc. Brent Barry?

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

Any kid has a better chance of playing college ball if they choose football or baseball over basketball based on the size of rosters. A football team can have over 100 players… baseball roster can have 40 guys on a college team… basketball typically 10-15 per squad. Those are the numbers that I was told by my boys coach…. and “statistics don’t lie”.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

What’s the skin tone of most european players? Are you telling me they aren’t athletic? How about the German sprint team… do they not run world class?

[llperez]

im talking about basketball. I said basketball players world wide.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

European basketball players aren’t athletic?

[Michael.S.Participant]

Most of the Euro players that come into the NBA are 7 footers….thats probably why.

Ginobili was very athletic…very

[llperez]

compared to the elite NBA players like lebron, josh smith, vince carter, derrickrose , nope.

[mbdParticipant]

those guys are super athletic. Those are the most athletic players in the NBA and idk josh smith was an elite NBA player lol

[dipt1982Participant]

This thread has actually become pretty successful, considering I questioned posting it in the first place…

[mbdParticipant]

Rudy Ferndaez? Euros are very athletic they just care more about fundamentals than dunking whats a dunk 2 points.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

They do extremely well against those players in International tournaments, don’t you think? Spains expected to win the next one without Gasol…. the best PF in the NBA.

[bobforteParticipant]

Brent Barry may not be a supurb athlete like a lebron but watch these highlights. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXg-k_1NGMY

[llperez]

i meant elite athletes, but i could name a lot more then those guys, just giving examples that the guys who truyly blow you away athleticly are black. Shaon Brown, Demar derozan, Tyrus Thomas, john wall etc…

[sheltwon3Participant]

This is an interesting topic but I still am confused that even if black people worker harder and have the mentality that they can play ball. The number of white people in the states dwarf black people. I mean just off the one in a million perfect situation there should be more white player that are really good unless the NBA is not set up to showcase a lot of the skills most white players bring to the table. Also it sometimes appears that the best white players in college are unathletic and the athletic white players are just average. If you look at David Lee and Chase Buddinger college numbers, you would not think hey this guy will be a great but Redick and Morrison had great numbers and right now David Lee is the best player of this group and Buddinger will be better than Morrison. I think some of it is NBA ball is about athleticism and confidence and maybe with so many people telling them they can’t, some white player give in. Morrison is not a terrible player despite what he shown but I think he confidence took a hit and I don’t know if he will ever get a chance to recover. I think had he not been so hyped, he could have been a solid role player.

Right, JJ Redick, David Lee, and Kevin Love seem like the closest thing right now to a white superstar.

If David Lee played better defense and improved his passing game a little more he could be a white star player but the thing is Lee has great athleticism.

Also Hinrich and Blake while not explosive have very good lateral quickness which they use to play very good defense and Blake has long arms.

Had Jason Williams played more consistent he could have been a white star player as well because he was athletic, quick and when he was no he was hard to guard.

[bobforteParticipant]

also dont know who this guy is but i just found it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgEw5Ah_vrI

[llperez]

what does them winning or losing have to do with guys who blow oyu away athletically? Bird was an mvp, did that make him the most ahtletic?

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

Pete Maravich is one of the best NBA athletes of all-time.

[btown gmParticipant]

there are good white guys out there but the league today is about speed atlethisism and white guys rely on there skill and iq. will there ever be another white guy probay but i would guess its a big man

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

So do you think Spain just out thinks them on their way to victory?

[llperez]

again, not saying spain or euros are unatheltic. Just saying they dont blow you away athleticly like many black players do. The top athletes in basketball are black players. DO you disagree with that?

[mbdParticipant]

what is athleticism to u? Is it just jumping??

[dipt1982Participant]

Spain is fundametally sound, and smart on the court, not to say black players aren’t, but that’s Spain’s cohesiveness and how they win. Not athleticism…

[bobforteParticipant]

check this guy though http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgEw5Ah_vrI i posted it but you didnt see it maybe

[dipt1982Participant]

I’m Casper Ghost white and I can admit that black players in the NBA are tremendously more athletic than white players in the NBA. Doesn’t change the way I view the game, it’s my favorite sport out of all pro athletics.

And David Lee is very athletic, but a different kind of athletic from say, ahhh, Josh Smith…I mean, it’s jsut the way it is, Lee is still successful, but on a different level…

[mbdParticipant]

Are we tlking Jumping? Or speed and quickness? How you move laterally? Cuz i know alot of white boys that will boom on you

[sheltwon3Participant]

Also jumping high is just one part of the equation, you have to be explosive enough to get up before the other guy or hand in the air a little bit. I went to school with white dudes who had pretty good athleticism but when it can to first step and just blazing quickness, they were average at best. You have to have both to be a NBA elite athlete. We can throw numbers all day but if you have looked at games and stuff in general, you can see a big difference. Brent Barry can jump no doubt about it but for every Brent Barry they are a Jason Richardson, Steve Francis, Antonio Mcdyess, etc

My bad I was trying to think of guys around his draft class they were superior athletes. It is tough because my mine is today’s players now.

A lot of super athletic black players don’t make it in the NBA.

It take athleticism skill, confidence, and the drive to get better and height and length definitely help.

[llperez]

not really interested in clicking on it, but im guessing its an athletic white player? Anyways, doesnt change anything i have been saying. If whites and blacks are equal athleticlly like some people are saying, then how come there is such a disaparity in how atheltic the white guys vs the black guys in the nba are? SOme suggested its a cultural thing, thus i brought up europe where they play basketball and are predominantly white and come from all sorts of various upbringings with culture out of the equation. ANd where are all these great euro white athletes in the NBA? If whites and blacks are equal, why such a disparity?

[mbdParticipant]

I honestly dont know why there is such a disparity maybe because alot of the white athletes play football or baseball. Like i said the fastest guy i know is white. As for the euro than i said Rudy Fernadez shoot ricky rubio is quick the whole spain team is.

[dipt1982Participant]

bobforte….yeah that’s Henry Bekkring, I remember seeing these clips years ago, he has crazy hops. But does he “PLAY” the game with crazy athleticism or can he just jump??? There is a difference…

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

No I don’t disagree with that statement as written… I do know that athletes come in all shapes and sizes. It doesn’t just mean run, jump and shoot. It includes twisting, bending, passing, hitting, catching, rebounding etc, etc. It doesn’t just have to be pretty to be athletic.

[dipt1982Participant]

mdb….it’s a combination of all of those factors rolled into one…

[llperez]

they will "boom" on me?, well i guess that settles it then, lol. Athletic means all of the above. Speed, explosion, quickness in change of direction, getting off the ground quickly without gathering. But if you know white dudes who will boom on me, then thats cool. I am white by the way.

[mbdParticipant]

i dont mean you literally i mean anybody. They have hops lol

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

Ok few things I got to point out in this thread:

1) ABSOLUTELY ridiculous statement that white players aren’t as competitive as black players. That’s just flat out not true

2) White people are not even close athletically to black people. There are obviously some exceptions, but they are just that–the exception not the rule. For example: I’m white. I played HS Football and I was the only White WR/DB on the team. Not one of the other WR’s worked out or ran sprints or anything. I did all those and was not as fast or could not jump as high as my teammates that played the same position. And I’m no slouch athletically. I ran hurdles and did the triple jump for track, played basketball my whole life–It’s just the way things are. (Btw a few got D1 scholarships and never hit the gym to train once)

3) “unless the NBA is not set up to showcase a lot of the skills most white players bring to the table. ”

I think that hits the nail on the head, Sheltwon. The NBA is more focused on individual iso athletic play now as opposed too being more of a team oriented, shooting league (Which white people tend to excel at a little more)

To answer the OP’s question (Or someones) I do think there will be another white superstar in the league within the next 20 years.

[Michael.S.Participant]

llperez…You are basing your arguement on like 10 white american players in the NBA, thats all there is…

There are 300 black players to judge from

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

Go to a football game the speed positions are largely dominated by black players. Baseball, the guys who are relied on for their speed to steal bases are predominantly black players.

[mbdParticipant]

Matt Jones
Ricky Prohel
Patrick Jeffers there are/were alot of white WRs As for Running Backs for some reason there arent that many IDK the NFL hates White RBs just like the whole Black Qb thing. Baseball not too many blacks in baseball right now mostly whites,asians and latinos.

[bobforteParticipant]

NO jumping is defenitly only one aspect of athletism but you guys were talking about dunking so i thought i would post that but thats what im saying. Its not that their isnt a player out there that isnt athletic enough or could be there are things like height, skill, etc that goes into it playing in the nba. Athletism is speed power jumping agility quickness balance fluidity etc… I grew up with Josh Heyvelt look at his Gonzaga Career he got injured a couple times and got into trouble but growing up he had a 40 inch vert and was 6 11 problem was his work ethic and after his injury he was never the same player. So for josh it wasnt his athletic ability purely off athletism (before injury) i have no doubt in my mind he was a nba star but thats not the whole picture.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

Rubio might not be fastest point guard or jump the highest… but he will play as athletic of a game of basketball as anybody in the NBA.

[dipt1982Participant]

There a quite a few black players that are not very athletic, you have a point Jammin Lebron, there’s just soooo many more black players than whites that it’s easy to pinpoint the most athletic black players…when there’s only 25 (estimate, not accurate) white players in the league, it’s a lot easier to criticize their lack of athleticism…

[llperez]

@spencer, i agree with 1 and 2 completley. Not sure about 3. Basketball is a game that can be played in many different ways. You cna be atheltic, non athletic, skilled, tall, short, have one dimension whatever. But in the end, being athletic is important and only increases all the other phases of your game. Its not really designed that way, it just is.

[mbdParticipant]

I think being athletic is overrated honestly besides Jordan and Kobe being extra athletic doesnt matter YOU HAVE TO HAVE SKILL to play basketball. Skill is the most important thing look at Josh Smith Super Athletic but cant shoot a jumper. Larry Bird Not a great athletic but Highly Skilled.

[bobforteParticipant]

SpencerHawes but why is that quarterbacks are white? Hockey players are Candian, Soccer stars are South American or European? Have you read the earlier part of the thread? Yeah at this time those players are faster but what im saying is it doesnt have to be that way.

[llperez]

jammin-lemon, i actually pointed out earlier that im not basing it off just the nba. I am basing it off growing up and everything i saw first hand playing sports, what i see in college, what isee in the nba and what i see in either internatinoal competition or players form over seas that make it to the nba and represent their repsective countries Thats all together a hell of a lot bigger sample size then just 10 guys in the nba.

[dipt1982Participant]

The NFL and the NBA comparisons are not legit, because they are completely different. Michael Vick is one of the most athletic QB’s ever, but he doesn’t fit what the NFL calls a quality QB. That’s why you see Peyton, Brees, Brady, Romo, Favre. The QB position is not based on athleticism, it’s based on totally different things, where as the NBA game of today is predominately based on athleticism…

[Michael.S.Participant]

I wanna bring up another point….

Anyone ever think that black players just care more about it than white players? Black players, in general, like to showboat, and stick out while white player are focused on scoring the 2 points and woring on thier fundamentals….

I think being athletic is just more important to blacks than whites…and this is evident.

But I dont thnk for one second that one race is naturally more athletic than another…

[bobforteParticipant]

Ok dipt1982 but what im saying is why do those players have (it) but Vick and other black athletes do not. What im saying is A Black quarterback could be like those quarterbacks you named but for some reason its not happening just like white basketball players being athletic. What im saying is what steriod was saying earlier its because what kids are being told growing up.

[dipt1982Participant]

Josh Smith might not be able to shoot a jumper, but he’s far better than Kyle Korver who CAN hit jumpers all day, and that’s because of his athleticism…sorry, it’s true

[mbdParticipant]

Korver will win a title way before Smith and will have a longer career in the NBA. Because when Smith hits 30 plus all that athleticism will disappear. You have to be skilled to play ball.

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

Well, perez, here is my take on things:

I think we can both agree that people now a days are much more athletic than they were say 30-40 years ago, right?

Well if people are changing, getting more athletic… Then rules come into place that make it tougher to defend guys that will take you on the dribble (handcheck?). That makes it better for guys like Wade/’Reke/LeBron who use their strength and athleticism to get to the rim.

But, that’s not the big picture.

If you agree with the statement that guys are more athletic now than before–there’s one thing that has not changed that benefits the more athletic guys–The height of the rim. As guys get more athletic and can get up higher and easier–and the rim hasn’t changed–that means athleticism becomes more important than shooting or team play. Combine that with rules that make it tougher to defend guys that like to drive, Athleticism wins out.

[mbdParticipant]

Has Vince Carter won anything besides a dunk contest
Nate Robinson
Gerald Green
Josh Smith
Dominique Being athletic is overrated i will take a slow white guy over a black guy who can jump out of the Gym
Im not that athletic but I have never had a problem guarding or scoring on guys that were just freak athletes,The most athletic guy in the GYM is prbly the least skilled.

[dipt1982Participant]

Well for one thing, I’m not sure most black athletes want to be QB’s, they would rather be the flashy wideout, or the flashy running back. And honestly, I’m not trying to be offensive at all guys, but it seems to me that there are a small number of black athletes that can handle the workload given to QB’s. There is so much preparation that QB’s go through everyday. Prime example, it took Vince Young 4-5 years to finally start learning the QB role efficiently. McNabb is just a stud, smart, athletic and has a cannon arm. But for the most part, black athletes aren’t strong enough mentally (not saying there stupid, no offense to anyone) to handle the responsibility of a full playbook and everything that comes with being an NFL QB…

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

Dude, its simple why QB’s are white.

The prototypical QB hands the ball off, makes accurate passes, doesn’t make dumb plays. Doesn’t involve running!

So, from a young age–the white kid who is a step slower but has a good arm plays QB. Whereas the Black QB who is quicker and has a good arm plays WR or RB because they are better there than the White QB.

Also–As good as a running QB may sound, it doesn’t translate to wins. Football is much more disciplined of a sport–Guys like Manning, Brees, and Brady are elite QB’s because they follow the script. Running QB’s are often too quick to run and they make the game more reckless which is not good for a team.

[dipt1982Participant]

^^^ Exactly

[White ChocolateParticipant]

This guy seems pretty good and athletic to me…:

[llperez]

i never played football growing up, but if was a coach, first thing i would do when handing out positions would be to find my fastest guys and set them at the skill positions. If this happens to be mostly the black kids, then obviously that takes away from the black qb candidates.

[llperez]

gordan hayward is pretty good and a decent athlete. But if you have to bring gordan hayward into the argument to validate how whites are equal athletically, then its a losing battle.

[White ChocolateParticipant]

No, I know I was just saying. I am not racist or anything but blacks tend to be the better athletes and whites tend to have higher basketball IQ’s.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

You might have to study up a bit on what teams are looking for now days in a QB. You are struggling.
As of now, youth teams are looking for the Tebow/Steve Young/Slash style QB’s that can run first and create big plays. You are basing your thoughts on your “very own ” oppinion without facts to back it up. I’m very involved with youth football and your thoughts are out-dated at best. As for receivers they are looking for kids that can catch and will agressively pursue the ball as well listen to instruction.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

Your last statement might be the definition af racist.

[llperez]

bball iq is not race thing to me. Peopel just point out a players iq more often when they are not athletic becasue it stands out more where as a great athlete might have the same or even greater bbal iq but it doesnt get as much creidt becasue they do things great athleitcly to make the game look easy. Thats really not a race issue. KObe,Jordan, CP3, Magic Ill take theri bbal iq anyday just as i would stocktons or birds.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

No… guys have been fired for saying same or similar things during broadcasts. It’s definately racist.

[McDunkin]

I have to fight the urge to mention gordon haywards sister every time i see him mentioned

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

Got a picture?

[SteroidParticipant]

The thing is, whether the athleticism stereotype is a cop-out or not, there is a lack of white american players in the NBA. It doesn’t matter if a white player can’t be athletic like a LeBron James or Josh Smith. Those guys are in a realm of their own. The main idea of my point that you are missing is that how are white international players are more successful than the white American players relatively speaking? Whether black guys are better basketball athletes, it doesn’t matter when there are white international players that out play white Americans in the NBA. There is something going on with the culture we live in as Americans. Euro players don’t have to grow up hearing that basketball is a black man’s sport. They play it and they become good at it whether they are up to par athletically or not, and the fact is, there are better white international players than there are white Americans. It’s because white Americans are discouraged to play basketball just because the black man is more suited to play basketball. I don’t see that stopping international guys from being successful like Pau or Dirk or having some significant part on a NBA team.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

Voted the best athlete of the last 100 yrs was Jim Thorpe… Native American.

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

“You might have to study up a bit on what teams are looking for now days in a QB. You are struggling.”

Ha, are you kidding? I know and enjoy football more than basketball. I know my shit, trust me.

“As of now, youth teams are looking for the Tebow/Steve Young/Slash style QB’s that can run first and create big plays.”

Yeah, because youth teams don’t pass very much! Very young kids have trouble throwing so it’s rare to find a youth team that passes more than 5 yrds down the field.

“You are basing your thoughts on your “very own ” oppinion without facts to back it up. I’m very involved with youth football and your thoughts are out-dated at best. As for receivers they are looking for kids that can catch and will agressively pursue the ball as well listen to instruction.”

You’re involved with little kid football. I’m talking grown man football. Once kids can start throwing, they’re put at QB. 6 year olds can’t throw so yea they’re going to be runners. From a young age I meant when kids start playing school football (middle school-JV), I should’ve been more specific I apologize.

You don’t need to explain me the roles of WR’s. I played WR for 10 years I know what coaches want and what makes a good receiver. Speed is the first thing most coaches look for. The other things can be taught (agressiveness, making the right cuts, etc)

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

By the way, I was a volunteer Pee Wee coach a couple years ago.

[sheltwon3Participant]

I agree llperez

If all a black person has to do was be athletic than James White and Gerald Green would be in the NBA.

Josh Smith can do more than just dunk but shooting was not one of his gifts. He can play defense decent and great when focused. His dribbling skills are really not that bad considering he is 6’9″. His biggest problem is playing out of position and with similiar skilled players. Josh Smith when he came in was called a future bust and he worked hard and last year he put up All Star numbers. Looking at his weaknesses does not make him just an athlete and having low basketball IQ.

I think in the next 20 years there will be a white person to star in the NBA but he will have to be mentally tough and maybe work harder than every other player like he may need a Kobe work ethic because there will be a lot of hater early on who will mean well but be about negativity. I am black but I actually can’t wait to see a white player be a star. Most of the white player that come into the league that I like their game i give them props. People only look at me knocking on Gordan Hayward though. They forget I was give mad props to Aldrich and was saying people that compared him to Ostertag id not know what they were talking about.

[llperez]

yeah, we’re on the same page there sheltwon.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

It’s based on what the high school coaches are asking/looking for in a QB! They have them running/using the high school play book.
Aggressiveness can not be taught… you have it or you don’t. And the little kids as you call them can hit their receivers on stride 40 yds down field.

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

This is a fact whether or not you want to admit it:
White people are generally less athletic than black people

There is no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

Depends on your definition.

[Michael.S.Participant]

Your wrong spence

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

Well, regardless the pro football game is a passing game. Disciplined pocket QB’s excel over anything right now. Mcnabb became elite when he stopped running so much and became a drop-back passer.

You are correct in saying different HS have different styles of offense, though. I suppose the reason I stated may have been incorrect about the youth playing QB. But, it doesn’t take away from the other point

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

No i am not wrong. It’s a FACT hang out with white and black people like I have my whole life. Its painfully obvious.

[McDunkin]

imagine she looked like this

and then try not to be too disappointed when you discover that she looks like this

http://www.butlersports.com/sports/w-tennis/mtt/hayward_heather00.html

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

Didn’t say you were wrong… I said it depends on your definition.

[llperez]

i really dont see any real argurment for whites being equal athletically. Someone mught bring up some random sport like gymansts where blacks hardly even compete, but in sports where both races compete heavily, blacks have an athletic advantage. And i saw it growing up first hand. There were 6 foot black dudes dunking on the regular and when 1 white guy did it, people were always like "man white boy got ups" like it was something out of the ordinary. This has been the case for the last 20 years since i started playing ball. Are there some great white athletes? of course absolutley. But thats not the norm.

[Michael.S.Participant]

I live in the Bronx and 95% of the people over here are black…thus everyone I play with is usually black and rarely is a black kid as athletic as me.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

I appreciated the first picture though.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

I see Brett Favre as good of an athlete or better than Adrian Peterson. Adrian couldn’t come any closer to being Brett Favre than Brett being Adrian. Purely athletic.

[llperez]

i dont follow foolsball, who is this favre person you speak of? Seriously though, there are people who are great athletes that are white, but that doesnt make it the norm. Can brett play db, wr, rb ? To me, those are the most purely athletic positions in football.

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

Jammin, there are exceptions to every rule.

Norsemen, Favre is nowhere near the athlete AD is. AD can run faster, jump higher, quicker, stronger all the things that make one a better athlete..

You may have posted this before but what exactly is your definition of athletic?

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

Takes more football ability to be QB…. and once it’s gone. Those position players are looking for a different line of work. It takes a great athlete to have the precise timing and skill to accurately throw a ball with 300 lb. line man trying to stop/kill you.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina.

It’s the trained and skilled part that separates athletes long term and leads to greatness as I see it.

[llperez]

im not arguing its tougher to be a qb. But i guess thats where you have to define "athletic". To me, there is a difference between skills and pure athleticisism. Shootina 3 pointer, or dribbling the basketball is not athletic. Now shooting a three while your 2 feet in the air or dribbling while going full speed and blwoing by guys who cant keep up, that athletiticsm.

And enough of the football analogies towards me, i cant really relate to that stuff. ALL I know is the raiders are the shit and asmougha will shut anybody down.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

There’s a reason stud QBs are selected immediately and stud RB’s can found in the 1st 3 or 4 rds. Runningbacks are a dime a dozen.

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

Yeah because RB’s are more pure athletes. Whereas QB’s have to have specialized skills that are tougher to come by. Just because the skill is tougher to come by doesn’t mean it means theyre more athletic.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

It’s all about oppinion… or a quarterback rolling out with 300 lb linemen chasing him throwing the ball back across his body 55 yards down field hitting his receiver in stride.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

Kinda it does.

[sheltwon3Participant]

McDunkin, who is that girl in the first pick. She kind looks like Jessica Alba and Beyonce combined

[sheltwon3Participant]

Favre is an athlete but I would never say in my head that he is very athletic but he has kept himself in great shape for a large number of years. Favre to me is very skilled and has durability that surpasses reason. I think maybe the fact that Favre is not an elite athlete is the reason he has been so durable

[llperez]

im just pissed that im 6-4 and cant dunk so i refuse to believe it’s just me, it has to be my whiteness.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

You think Favre not being an athlete is the reason he’s been durable? Explain please.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

We all have different gifts… I hope you can at least get close to dunking at 6′ 4″.

[llperez]

i can grab the rim. But i could ball, no question about that. I made up for my lack of athleticism.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

Back in high school I remember an “extremely white” kid that was about 6’2″ and about 120 lbs that could long jump 22″ ft at 15 yrs old. It was something to see.

[Michael.S.Participant]

Thats just Jessica Alba…i believe

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

I’d take a Sam Mitchell type player over a Gerld Green type player any day. Garnett never played better than when Mitchell was on the floor.

[llperez]

There were a lot more non so athletic good players in the 90’s such as sam mitchell. Nate Mcmillan, brian shaw etc… And skiils has it obvious advantages over athleiticism. But as the game grows and competition for spots in the league from both in america and overseas grows, we are seeing a greater need for a combination of both skills and athletiicsm. Its hard to get by without both in todays game.

[gregoden08Participant]

Black people are generally more athletic. It’s really not even a debate. Obviously there are exceptions, though.

[llperez]

151 posts later, and that ^^^^ pretty much sums up this thread

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

And he ends it with generally… and nothing about what athletically is? Now we need a thread listing the top 100 most athletic players and to see how many of them actually can play basketball. Is Paul Pierce in the top 100?

[llperez]

 Obviously paul pierce is not an elite athlete by nba standards. EIther way. This thread has been fun, but im burned out on it.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

Me too.

[sheltwon3Participant]

Dang lilperez i have jump soles, I will let you borrow. I kind of wish i would have use them in high school. I dunked one handed but with jump soles maybe I could have been like Nate Robinson. A white dude I went to school with was 6’2″ and he could dunk two hands. I should have been able to dunk two hands but I never had good technique dunking

[omphalosParticipant]

Yes, black dudes in America in particular are generally more athletic, by which I mean are more explosive, jump higher, run faster. There are a few reasons for this;

An exercise physiologist I knew explained to me that most black people have a different proportion between their upper and lower leg lengths than is found in white people which allows for better biomechanics and a more powerful spring. This is why they are generally higher jumpers. Yes, there are exceptions, but black people have a genetic advantage in how they are made up.

The other reason that American blacks are crazy athletic in particular – and I know this is sensitive – is that most of them descended from a slave population. Slavers would capture the strongest, most athletic Africans and bring them to America. So the population is descended from a concentrated genetic pool of strong, athletic ancestors.

As for people like Green; you guys say why isn’t he still playing? The fact is that he made it on his athleticism but sucked at basketball; there are plenty of white guys who can play the game but don’t have the requisite athleticism to get to the NBA because coaches are looking for potential superstars, not basketball players these days.

I would like to add there are exceptions to all of these, of course.

[rtbtParticipant]

Although Llperez had a good point about sprinters, it’s only one sport. And it’s a sport where all of the role models are black and we should never underestimate the critical importance of role models. In America, almost all of the basketball role models are black. It’s the same with the NFL.

I grew up in NYC but when I moved to the suburbs of DC, I was stunned to learn white kids rarely played basketball in the Maryland suburbs. It was a sport played almost exclusively by black kids. Outstanding young white athletes went into a variety of other sports

Anyway, I digressed. Let me get back to my main point. Sprinting is only one example of athleticism.

* Almost all of the world’s elite high jumpers are white

* Almost all of the world’s elite ice speed skaters are white

* Almost all of the world’s great swimmers are white

* All of the world’s great downhill skiers are white

* Almost all of the world’s elite gymnasts are white or Asian

* Almost all of the world’s best hockey players are white

* Almost all of the world’s great cyclists are white

* I don’t follow soccer, but aren’t many of the world’s great players white?

Hopefully you get the idea. In America, almost every young black male thinks about becoming NFL or NBA players. In Austria, all of the young kids want to be downhill skiers, in Canada they want to be hockey players. You can extrapolate this idea into almost every sport.

In America, the only two sports we use to judge athleticism are basketball and football.

[dipt1982Participant]

@Iv Norsman…I disagree completely with your evaluatioin of the QB position in the NFL, the ‘young teams’ being the ones going for athletic type, running QB’s is so far off. Bradford and Stafford were the 1st picks respectively the last two years, and they are the farthest thing from what you are trying to portray as the NFL QB…Tebow is an exception, believe me, I’m the biggest Tebow fan, but he is a minority in his style of play. And the NFL will slow down his running abilities, and force him to play the more traditional QB style, where the “athletes” are bigger, stronger, faster than they were in college…That’s why guys like Terrell Pryor eventually will have to change his outlook on the position and switch his style a little at some point to be successful at the next level…

I’ve heard many reports about Locker bring the best QB next season, and he fits the mold of Tebow style play, but as the season comes nearer and nearer, I’m hearing Andrew Luck’s name as the emerging QB star in college football, and he most definitely fits the traditional college style QB…I’m just sayin…

[dipt1982Participant]

Wow, what a post, gotta ton of response and some good conversation…thanks guys, glad I ended up posting this thread

[B-ball fanParticipant]

John Bryant

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

dipt… he was referring to youth teams (little kids).

But I agree with your assessment 100% on the pro game.

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

thats just because black people dont swim or go on ice.

[rtbtParticipant]

“thats just because black people dont swim or go on ice.”

Which post are you referring to ?

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

yours

[billykParticipant]

SMH… I think the post is dominated by white posters and there definatly seems to be a bias attitude…

I sense a resentment towards black athletes and it seems that even as a DOMINANT group (75 % of the population), white people since the slavery days have all these ideas about why the BLACK MAN is this or that….

1. I think that both white and blacks are good athletes… Slavery has allowed a certain level of “survival of the fitness selection” to occur among American blacks…

2. Agressiveness in sports have alot to do with how you grow up.. Example more aggressive players tend to come from areas of lower socioeconomic areas, competition grow up among siblings, parenting styles, etc….

3. Basketball IQ should based on individual players… Some players are athletic and have high bball IQ, some dont its simple… I have seen plenty white and black players with low ball IQ’s…

4. Black players that excel in playing QB in high school often times are directed towards more athletic postions and dont get a chance to develop as a QB.. Because often times the have the versatility to play other portions NOT because they are not smart enough…

5. If black kids had the same opportunity as white kids economically they wouldnt just concentrate on sports.. If parent has a BA/MA/Doctrine chances are the kid will have a higher education degree… Money, opportunity, culture, genetics and social progess all contribute to our perception on NOT just white and black athletes, but white and black people in general…

[rtbtParticipant]

billyk, I was impressed with your post. Those were some excellent observations.

I could say a lot more but let me take a moment to throw in one observation that jives with much of what you said above. Has anyone ever seen a world class boxer who came from a middle or upper class family? It’s happened once or twice but it’s a very rare occurrence. Economics and Sports are very closely related because kids from poor neighborhoods have always viewed sports as a way out.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

Be more specific on your 1st 2 points…. what made you come to those conclussions. You lost me on your the first 2 pts., but I was able to follow you you there after… I don’t completely agree with your personal assessment(s) though.

[rtbtParticipant]

“thats just because black people dont swim or go on ice.”

I’m not quite sure what your point is but I think it jives with much of what I said.

In Austria, young guys strive to be downhill skiers.
In Canada, young guys strive to be hockey players
In certain affluent neighborhoods, young white males strive to be tennis or swimming stars.
I could continue but you get the idea.

There are reasons we see very few white stars in the NBA. Most of the role models are black and many white kids are channeled into other sports. Basketball is not a way of life for them like it was in the NYC schoolyard where I grew up. For many black kids in who live in the city, basketball is almost a religion and it’s certainly a way of life.

As I mentioned above, after I moved out of NY, I was stunned to learn that very few white kids in the Maryland suburbs played basketball. And if they did, it was just one of several outlets.

As for white guys excelling in the NBA, it certainly isn’t because they don’t have the athletic ability. One of the things that makes me laugh is that old myth about white guys and jumping. I have to LOL because almost all of the world’s elite high jumpers are white. Those guys defy gravity because they jump almost 7 feet 9 inches off the ground!

Yes genetic are very important but it’s also about opportunity, role models, and economics.

[rtbtParticipant]

Allow me to throw in my two cents. I don’t think there’ s any doubt about survival of the fittest during slavery. Only the strongest survived that cruel boat ride across the ocean.

A flip side of that were the last two World Wars where millions of the strongest and best young white males were slaughtered and eliminated from the gene pool.

As for aggressiveness and sports, I think my boxing reference speaks to that. Almost every world class boxer comes from a poor neighborhood. I too believe there is a strong correlation between economic opportunity and sports. For many young men, sports is their only way out.

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

I know tons of white guys who focus their energy on playing basketball, i know 1 black guy who likes hockey, 1 black guy who likes tennis, 0 black guys who swim. the comparison is not legitimate.

I don’t have a racial bias, what I say is purely from observations from my entire life.

[JNixonParticipant]

Jimmer Freddette! He has a chance to be very good. He’s alot like Stephen Curry, but a little less talented. He has a chance to be a very good NBA player. I expect him to lead the nation in scoring next year too.

[PureshooterParticipant]

I was a good athlete in high school. I was about 6’3″ in high school and could touch the top line of the square on the backboard with a full head of steam. I remember being the only white guy in a gym full of black guys many, many times. If I ever threw one down the gym would go crazy, like I was from the special olympics or something. The disparity in natural athleticism between black athletes and white athletes is obvious, but it is definitely exacerbated by stereotypes and economic conditions. To say it “isn’t even close” is certainly overstating it.

My basketball team was basically all white, but I was the only person who primarily played basketball. Everyone else played soccer (for whatever reason) and were rich private school kids. There were definitely some kids on the team who had hops and could’ve been very good perimeter basketball players, but they just never played. Many of the teams we played were all white and one thing I definitely noticed:

Rednecks are more athletic than rich kids. I know it sounds funny, but the poor kids always had hops. They are outside and physically active from a younger age since there are fewer luxuries (tv, video games, etc.). They were all white, but the worse the environment, the more athletic. It was pretty much always true then, and I think it’s true now. Most athletes in the NBA are either A) From poor families or B) Rich kids from ex-athletes who just lucked out genetically and have been trained from Day 1.

If you don’t come from ex-athletes and have a fairly wealthy family, just forget about it. You’re probably either playing soccer, lacrosse, or swimming.

[billykParticipant]

On the first point, if you take a look historically at slave trade blacks (especially men) where bought and traded based on their physical size because the tought was the bigger and stronger the slave the more labor you can get out of that individual.. Take a look at North American blacks compared to the rest of the world, they blacks from Africa and South America generally arent as BIG and THICK as they are in North America… 400+ years of slavery has contributed to the genetic selection process… Remeber slavery based on workers output, not intelligence so the idea was the get the BIGGEST and STRONGEST…

On the second point, I believe agressiveness is a part genetic and part socialization… Some people are just gentically predisposed to be agressive… You can also be socialized, if your grew up in a competive education enviorment (aganist your peers) you will view going to school and excelling in a competitive manner… Same as basketball if your are from a place (usually in lower socioeconomical areas) where you have to compete for a particular goal, chances are you will be more aggressive… Look at CEO’s (some of the most aggressive people) of corporations, MOST are breed to compete and win at an early age and they apply this aggressiveness to the business world…

[rtbtParticipant]

SpencerIsHawesome2, your observation above is known in the scientific world as “anecdotal evidence”. In other words it doesn’t mean much. Nobody’s accusing you of racial bias but you are not looking at all of the variables.

Let me repeat what I said earlier in reference to great athletes and how their skills are channeled into specific sports because of role models and opportunities.

* Almost all of the world’s elite high jumpers are white

* Almost all of the world’s elite ice speed skaters are white

* Almost all of the world’s great swimmers are white

* All of the world’s great downhill skiers are white

* Almost all of the world’s elite gymnasts are white or Asian

* Almost all of the world’s best hockey players are white

* Almost all of the world’s great cyclists are white

* I don’t follow soccer, but aren’t many of the world’s great players white?

That’s what you call evidence. Hundreds or thousands of great young white athletes never dedicate themselves to basketball the way many young, inner city black males do. Genetics are important, but culture, role models, and opportunity are equally important.

[JoeWolf1]

I really think the average athletic ability of all humans is very similar if you were to record an average combine from every male in the world, I don’t think any race would be significantly more athletic than another. Athleticism is genetic and all humans are the same with a few variations. I’m a 28 year old white guy from Kansas who can still dunk with one hand, my friend is Asian and runs like 10 miles a day, I’ve been more athletic than dozens of black guys I’ve played against and less athletic than dozens of guys from all races too. There are more elite black athletes in the NBA, thats not a question, but there are what 400 NBA players out of 7 Billion, assume 3 billion are males we are making assumptions off of a few hundred men out of 3 or so billion. As an average from Lebron James to those 1,000 pound men they make shows about on TLC I think all humans despite their race average out extremely similarly.

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

rtbt let me say this again

I know almost no black people that swim, play tennis or hockey or ice skate.

I know A LOT of white people that play a lot of basketball

OOPS there goes your whole post.

[rtbtParticipant]

SpencerIsHawesome2, thanks for proving you don’t have a clue on this subject. You obviously think anecdotal experience, your personal observations, is more important than a global view of the evidence.

You made a great point if you’re a high school sophomore, but it wouldn’t cut it in graduate school.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

I’m sorry… I should have asked about your 1st 2 sentences not first 2 points.

[dipt1982Participant]

Iggy, Jimmer Freddette is NOT going to be an NBA star, or a very good player, in fact he’ll be lucky to get a summer league invite. He plays horrible defense and hogs the ball, he has no PG ability. All he can do is shoot, and that won’t get you far, i.e. ADAM MORRISON…

He’s not even at Steve Kerr’s level in the league, his game will not translate over to the NBA well at all…

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

Morrison’s problem had to do with blowing out a knee. What player that you can think of came back as explosive as they were previously after tearing up a knee?

[dipt1982Participant]

He still lost his touch, and shooting was him M.O. He wasn’t an explosive guy to begin with, so I’m losing you on your comment???

[JoeWolf1]

What about the Plumlee brothers? they are big and athletic, both have work to do on their games to be real difference makers, but they have the potential with their athletic ability and size to become all-star players. Also, I think Fredette will have a Dan Dickau type inpact in the NBA, a decent 2nd or 3rd string scoring pg who could drop 13 and 5 as a starter for a terrible team.

[llperez]

what happened to dickau? he had one solid year in new orleans. Havent heard of him in awhile.

[dipt1982Participant]

Dickau had very little impact in the league…one decent season a horrible team, but very little after or before that. I don’t even see Freddette as good as Dickau at the next level, at least Dickau was your typical PG, Freddette is little more than a streaky shooter…

[dipt1982Participant]

He played for the Clippers pre-season team last year and best game was 6 points, 2 assists….just not very good

[JoeWolf1]

I don’t know, I wonder if he went overseas. I always liked him, back when Gonzaga was an underdog and not a top program

[dipt1982Participant]

As of June 17, he’s currently on Yahoo sports Suns roster, maybe summer roster, not sure if that’s legit……

[billykParticipant]

To the first sentence, If you look at the attitude/bias/comments of the posts on this topic you can resonable assume that this post is dominated by white posters…Regarding the second sentence, again if you read the comments in this post about black and white basketball players you can sense a kind of resentment towards the so called “superior” athletic abilities of black players.. There have been numerous studies about WHY black people do this or that…

[weballin.netParticipant]

One thing you don’t realize and which explains the difference btw white europeans and white americans is that in European countries, youngsters are recruited in pro like teams very early. Someone like Gasol was in Barcelona youth section. In former Jugoslavia, you got teams like Red Star, Partizan, Cibona Zagreb or Ljubjana which recruit kids at age 13 or 14 and got them trained by some of the best coaches in the world. The game is better taught in Europe where we focus on fundamentals and team game than in the US where it’s more about the individuals til you go to college.
The other thing is that you got to relativize. How many white European all stars you know? Dirk, Pau, and that’s almost all for a continent with 400million people, it’s not that much. Nash is Canadian and maybe he just played without questioning about his “race” or being talked about for being white. He was in a safer environment.

[stanford hoops]

did anyone notice there were zero white kids on the mcdonalds all american team?..i dont think there were any on the jordan classic or the usa vs the world either

[JoeWolf1]

Weballin.net, I agree with you on your points on European players, but…

I don’t think Nash’s Canadian upbringing had a whole lot to do on why he is a star, he went to college in the US and made enormous strides as a player in his early years in the NBA. He was talented enough to get drafted in the mid 1st, but he wasn’t a phenom, he could have easily been another white player who faded into obscurity, but he put in the work as a pro in a game dominated by African Americans, not as a sheltered Canadian phenom.

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

You presented facts about sports such as skating, gymnastics, skiing, etc.

Most of the sports you presented, if not all, require quite a bit of money to participate. White male Americans make about 22% more money than Black male Americans. So, obviously, the correlation is that white males participate more in the richer sports and black males participate more in the cheaper sports to play.

* Almost all of the world’s elite high jumpers are white
* Almost all of the world’s elite ice speed skaters are white
* Almost all of the world’s great swimmers are white
* All of the world’s great downhill skiers are white
* Almost all of the world’s elite gymnasts are white or Asian
* Almost all of the world’s best hockey players are white
* Almost all of the world’s great cyclists are white
* I don’t follow soccer, but aren’t many of the world’s great players white?

Now, of course, I do not have complete facts to back me up, I am not pretending to be an expert here. You presented your theory and some facts. However, there is no correlation between your facts presented and determining whether or not white and black people are equal athletes.

Your theory revolves around white players dominating in sports that cost money to participate in. Well, you are just a regular Sherlock Holmes aren’t you? They have the OPPORTUNITY to play those, whereas black people do not.

Therefore, you cannot include the sports where only 1 race really has the opportunity to participate in. (Oh and by the way, what the fuck kind of white kids do you know that idolize a speed skater over Kobe or LeBron or even Adrian Peterson)

So the sports we have to look closely at to determine whether or not one race is more athletic than the others would be sports that both have equal opportunities to participate in. Now, I understand there are outside factors involved, but they are outside factors that we can work with–unlike the outside factors presented in your theory.

The sports we can look most closely at would be basketball and football. These are the 2 most popular sports in America, both are cheaper and allow for equal opportunities to play.

I think we can agree that the majortiy of Division 1 athletes, regardless of race, are devoted to the one sport they play. It’s not easy to get a D1 scholarship–most people regardless of race have to work for it and really impress.

In Division 1 College Football, 45.9% of the athletes were black in 2008.
Let’s jump to the NFL. 77% of the athletes playing in the NFL were black in 2008.
Now, what is the cause for this HUGE over 30% jump? Is it a lack of effort? Can’t be if you agree with the above statement that Division 1 athletes all are very devoted to their respective sport. The only viable answer I can think of is that the NFL is a much more physically dynamic game than College, so the more ATHLETIC black players get chosen over the less athletic white players.

Here are the same stats for basketball:
60% of D1 Basketball players are black.
82% of players in the NBA are black
Again another drastic jump. 22% difference. Again, I think it’s safe to presume that the white players and black players who are playing D1 basketball are both equally devoted to the sport (at least not near 22% difference). The most plausible reason for the jump appears to be the difference in athleticism.

Now, again, I understand there are different variables I have not accounted for. I do not have the time nor care enough to make this an extensive research paper. I base majority of my arguments on experience because that’s what I know best. I’m not an expert in this sort of thing but I know what I see, and I presented them with facts as best as I could with my limited time and available statistics.

So to sum this all up: Black people tend to be more athletic than white people.

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

For some reason I cannot edit that post, but I wanted to change the last line too:

On average, black people are more athletic than white people.

Not that it’s a big change.

[JNixonParticipant]

“Iggy, Jimmer Freddette is NOT going to be an NBA star, or a very good player, in fact he’ll be lucky to get a summer league invite. He plays horrible defense and hogs the ball, he has no PG ability. All he can do is shoot, and that won’t get you far, i.e. ADAM MORRISON…”

LOL, laugh now cry later. That’s allll I’m going to say

[sheltwon3Participant]

I actually think Freddette will be a solid back up that brings scoring to the table but all that hype comparing him to Stephon Curry is maybe a lil bit off. He will not be a star that is for sure. Are there any white players with star potential coming through the ranks. Anybody know of any.

[sheltwon3Participant]

This is like a never ending thread, you guys need to turn this into a youtube video or something.

[dipt1982Participant]

^ I didn’t think my white guy thread would take off like this…

Iggy, not trying to argue, but what exactly do you see in Freddette’s game that makes you think it would translate to the NBA? He reminds me of a less PG driven Bouldin, that kid from Gonzaga, and I certainly don’t see him around…He might get a shot at summer league, and make roster as a back up or 3rd PG, but he is no STAR

[1SACgoon916Participant]

The best whiteguy (american,he’s of german desent) in the league is chris kaman hands down.next goes mike miller then gordon hayward

[1SACgoon916Participant]

Wait its actually DAVID LEE..kant forget him he’s a walkin double double 20 10

[1SACgoon916Participant]

I hella forgot about kevin love ( another double double guy)..kirk hinrich is decent don’t forget the birdman!!!hahaha

[dipt1982Participant]

Love, Kaman, and Lee are nice, but there’s a major drop off after that. And I wouldn’t quite call any of them stars…very good though

[sheltwon3Participant]

I was about to say how do you got 3 player deep and pop up with Hayward lol. There are more white players in the League and to me David Lee is the best. Chris Kaman is probably second. Kirk Hinrich is 3rd especially when he gets minutes.

[dipt1982Participant]

Heinrich is NOT better than Kevin Love…

[JNixonParticipant]

Put him on a team like the Magic, Lakers, Warriors, Suns, or a team with a ball-dominant guard and Jimmer Freddette will be very good at the NBA level. His numbers will probably only be slightly less than Curry’s in those situations.

He plays nothing like Matt Bouldin really. Bouldin is a 6’5 PG without the speed and athleticism to drive to the rim, even with pick and roll play. Freddette has some wiggle in him and can get to the rim, even with an entire defense geared to stop him. Bouldin is like Jon Scheyer, as both have to create offense for themselves almost strictly around the the 3-point line because they lack the ability to slash much. Freddette is nothing like that.

Watch next year, I believe Freddette will lead the nation in scoring and even if he doesn’t he’s at least be top 10. That guy is not Matt Bouldin. They don’t play nearly the same lol. The only similarities are that they both can shoot, aren’t great athletes, and are white.

Just watch. It’s way too early to write him off anyway.

[dipt1982Participant]

I just don’t see his game crossing over, and he can lead the country in scoring all he wants, they have NOTHING else but him, so of course he’s gonna score. He’s got some wiggle, but is it enough when he’s being guarded by real defensive minded players, not players from the Mountain West? LOL…don’t forget Reddick and Morrison lead college in scoring as well, and they’re not any kind of stars I would write home about…Numbers like Curry? Wow, LMAO, we shall see…

[JNixonParticipant]

Remember, he’s proven himself against quality competition. He played well against Kansas State, Florida, dominated the MWC which had 3 NCAA tourny teams last year if I’m not mistake, so it’s not like he played in a bad conference especially for a mid-major. He had 49 points on Arizona last year, and he also had a 23 point game head-to-head against Jeff Teague as a Sophomore. This guy isn’t just putting up numbers on bad teams. And he’s doing it with entire defenses drawn up to stop him.

He can get to the rim in the pick and roll with ease, and the NBA is a pick and roll league. Think about how J.J. Redick and Adam Morrison scored and how Morrison scored and compare it with how Freddette gets his points.

I’m not understanding the comparisons you’re throwing out….None of the players you are throwing out play like Freddette. And they also don’t score with the ball like Freddette does, all need screens to get their JUMP SHOTS off. Freddette can slash to the rim and score, and he can shoot the ball. He’s more versatile as a scorer than them

[dipt1982Participant]

Yeah, but the NBA is a long league, where as in college you don’t see big, big guys like he will on a nightly basis in the league. No matter all the stats you bring up doesn’t PROVE he will succeed at the next level. I just don’t buy it, don’t see him being a factor in the NBA, maybe a role player, but he won’t be anywhere that will need him to control the ball and be the main focus on a team.

As for the comparisons, I’m not saying he is JJ Redick or Adam Morrison at all, I’m just stating the facts that those guys were monster scorers in college as is Freddette, but it didn’t crossover to the league. And JJ Redick played against far better competition than Freddette. And yes, the pick and roll game is a big part of the NBA, but he lacks the speed to be that kind of guy, he’s not super quick, he’s shifty…

Time will tell…we can agree to disagree…

[stanford hoops]

byu is actually a pretty good team. what fredette will have to learn to do will be to score without having to dribble alot or create his own shot. he will need to learn to score more off of screens and pick and roll because he wont be a top option on any nba team but more importantly he will need to learn to do other things well because teams will have better scorers so he will need to learn to be a better passer and a better defender. pretty much all guards can score so he will need to be very very good at somethign else to seperate his self unless hes a nba elite scorer which i dont think he will be.

i dont think hes steph curry but i see him more as a eddie house/non athletic nate robinson(taller of course) type who comes in the game to score off the bench. all the other stuff he will need to learn would be based on him becoming a starter

[dipt1982Participant]

thank you…

[plasticmanParticipant]

It is no secret why there are more black players in the NBA.

It is a fact that black people are generally more gifted athletically when talking about explosiveness. The key word of course, is GENERALLY, because there are always exceptions, but don’t see how that can even be argued. This also the most the most important attribute a player can have in basketball. Sure a player can become great without being a great athlete, but if you can jump high and run fast you have a great advantage over a player that can’t.

I’m not dismissing that there are social factors that play a part as well, but thats not a major factor imo.

Thats said, Larry Bird is the shit and would still be a great player today. I would see him bulking up a little and playing more power forward than small forward. He would still torch defenders with his insane bball IQ and ball skills. Also people forget that he was a very capable rebounder too. He would prolly be close to average defensively because the league is faster paced, but playing against slower power forwards would help in that area.

Sorry I know I’m a little late on these topics but I couldn’t post for a while.

[JNixonParticipant]

Thank you what?

You said he was like Matt Bouldin lmao….Eddie House and Nate Robinson are not Matt Bouldin if you don’t watch basketball

[dipt1982Participant]

You take things too seriously…calm down. He’s no Larry Bird either…your the one saying he will be a star, not me…

[dipt1982Participant]

And I didn’t mean he was exactly like Bouldin, quit reading too much into things. Bouldin had a successful college career and has yet to be found in the NBA, that’s what the meaning of my comparison was, and he is like a smaller version of Bouldin. If you don’t agree, sue me. It’s my opinion, you don’t have to agree…god knows I don’t agree with you about Freddette…

[dipt1982Participant]

Even if he’s Eddie House, is that a big enough star as your claiming he’ll be??? No, so once again, Thank You

[JNixonParticipant]

LOL, where did I say star? And I’m reading too much into things…….Smh.

You said he was like Matt Bouldin with “less driven PG skills” (whatever that means). I said he was like a slightly less talented Stephen Curry. Now how is that like saying he’s a star. Never did I say he would be a star.

[willie wise fanParticipant]

http://www.akawhitejesus.com/

this guy was sure athletic 44 inch vertical

[dipt1982Participant]

Well for one thing, naming the top ten PG’s in five years, you vouched for some guy who named Jimmer Freddette!

“Jimmer Freddette! He has a chance to be very good. He’s alot like Stephen Curry, but a little less talented. He has a chance to be a very good NBA player. I expect him to lead the nation in scoring next year too.”

So what is very good then??? If he averages 12-5, it’s not “very good”, so what is your point, you’ve been waffling about how you view this, he’s a VERY GOOD player one minute, and then you say he’s not a star…make up your mind. Comparing the guy to Steph Curry, LMAO, where do you see that? Steph actually knows how to pass!!!

Your comparing him to Curry, or a little less than Curry who just averaged 17.5 ppg, 4.5 rpg, and 5.9 apg…Freddette will not come close to those numbers, pass whatever it is your smoking sir, please!

[dipt1982Participant]

It’s really easy to see what less PG skills means, Freddette doesn’t pass the ball…he has A LOT to work on…

[JNixonParticipant]

Lol, alright man. I said he was a slightly less talented version of Stephen Curry. That’s not a star

I said he is being slept on. I DEFINITELY haven’t said he was a top 10 PG, so who even knows what you’re talking about. I also said in the next sentence, that it was entirely too early to make a top 10 list. Once again, you’re reading too much into what’s going on.

“If he averages 12-5, it’s not “very good”, so what is your point, you’ve been waffling about how you view this, he’s a VERY GOOD player one minute, and then you say he’s not a star…make up your mind.”

If he can average 12 ppg and 5 apg as a rookie, that’s not very good? Yeah it is…

How can a guy with nearly 5 apg “not pass the ball”? You clearly don’t know what you’re talking about.

There is a big difference between being a very good player and a star. I never in my life said Fredette will be a star. I have said he’ll be a very good player. Example: Andre Iguodala is a very good player, but would you consider him a star? Same thing for a guy like LaMarcus Aldridge.

I haven’t changed my stance 1 time, so who knows what you’re talking about there….

NOTHING you have said makes since or is the same thing I’ve said. If anything, YOU are the one who has changed their stance. You went from saying Fredette was a “less driven PG” version of Matt Bouldin, to saying “Thank you” when Quincey compared Fredette to Eddie House or Nate Robinson. You are a big hypocrite and then you try to make it like I’ve changed anything I’ve said?! Are you serious?

[omphalosParticipant]

Anybody think Kyle Singler from Duke has a chance in the L? I don’t watch too much college ball, but as far as white Americans go he was fairly impressive. He’s well coached too and staying 4 years in college will only make him better. He’ll probably develop more after another year in college than with a team like Minnesota.

[JNixonParticipant]

He’ll probably be a middle or likely end rotation player, likely in a Luke Walton type role. It depends on if you like Walton and think he’s good (I don’t personally) as to whether you think Singler has success I’d say.

[omphalosParticipant]

Yeah I think he could come in and contribute on a stacked team like the Lakers. The Walton comparison is a good one.

[dipt1982Participant]

If you watch him play, he controls the ball 90% of the time that BYU has it. He gets4 assists or so off of guys being open and because he controls the ball. I would hope if you have the ball in your hands EVERY single play of the game, that you could muster 4 assists…should be WAY more.

Whatever, he’s not gonna be successful in the NBA, that’s MY POINT, not gonna try to convince you with things that don’t make since (it’s actually ‘sense’ smart guy). ANd he has a lot better chance being Matt Bouldin than Steph Curry, LOL…

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

I don’t know if I’d make the Walton-Singler comparison. Singler is a more established scorer than Walton ever was. Walton’s strength has always been his unselfishness and ability to play like a point-SF, unfortunately he is not good enough to have the ball in his hand in the NBA so that limits his ability.

[JNixonParticipant]

^Human spell check? lmao…Wow

[JNixonParticipant]

Yeah true, he’s not all that much like Walton. I don’t think his scoring will translate though, except for his shooting, and even that’s inconsistent. I would compare him to Luke Babbitt, but obviously Babbitt hasn’t played in the NBA

[dipt1982Participant]

You just compared Walton to Singler, but you can talk about my comparisons??? LMAO buddy, seriously?

[JNixonParticipant]

Get off my nuts. This is ridiculous…..

[omphalosParticipant]

I’ll clarify my comparison in terms of his production/contribution, not what type of player he is.

[dipt1982Participant]

Haha, you mad???

[JNixonParticipant]

Never mad….Seems like you just wanna argue with me. Which is quite funny but also a sign of inferiority

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

dipt should just back off like RTBT did.

[dipt1982Participant]

I’ve told you many times that I didn’t wanna argue with you, so I don’t get what your saying. Inferiority? Never that my friend

[sheltwon3Participant]

How is Kevin Love better than Hinrich. Hinrich used to be a very good point guard before injuries and Rose derailed that.

[OrangeJuiceJonesParticipant]

It’s “you’re,” not “your.”

Grammar Police in the buildin’, shuttin’ ya whole forum down…..

[dipt1982Participant]

“How is Kevin Love better than Hinrich. Hinrich used to be a very good point guard before injuries and Rose derailed that.”

So USED to be a very good PG means what? Is he a good PG now? As of this minute right now, Love is better than Hinrich…

[PureshooterParticipant]

If you want to talk about anyone who has potential (and I can’t stress that word enough) to be a US born white star in the near future, it would have to be Mason Plumlee in my opinion. He has size, athletic ability, and a fair amount of skill as well. If he can develop while at Duke he has the upside to really be an impact player in the league. Of course, there is no way to tell if that will ever happen.

[Author]

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