[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

While it is still fresh in our minds, I’m sure we all clearly remember LeBron’s 6th foul against Shaun Livingston in last night’s game.  Now, this thread isn’t going to discuss whether it was a foul or a flop.  It’s here to use that as an example of what I’m going to call, the LeBron-Livingston case study.

For decades, NBA players have lifted weights and sculpted their bodies through hard work.  A strong body is a plus when in the NBA, right?  We remember Shaq, literally plowing his opponents underneath the basket, then dunking all over them. 

This man was actually strong enough to break backboards whenever he wanted to.  He used his power, body, and strength to completely dominate on both ends of the court.  This is the type of basketball I grew up watching, and loved.

Now, back to the LeBron-Livingston case study, what does it have to do with Shaq?  LeBron comes in listed at 6’8 250.  He’s closer to 6’9 265 but I digress.  Shaun Livingston is a healthy 6’7 175lbs.  It’s clear to any human with the capability of sight that LeBron spends much more time in the weight room than Livingston.  Because of that, as well as genetics, LeBron is significantly bigger and stronger than Livingston; nearly 100lbs worth.

The foul that LeBron picked up against Livingston, whether it was a flop or a fair foul isn’t exactly the issue at hand, the issue is the fact that Livingston, because of his wirey body, was given the benefit of a close call, one that changed the game.

This is when it dawned on me.

Does spending any time in the weight room even matter in today’s game?

I remember watching the 2011 NBA Finals and on various occasions, LeBron was matched up with JJ Barea.  LeBron would start by posting up Barea and each time LeBron posted him up, Barea would simply flop and an offensive foul was given to LeBron with a free pass awarded to Barea.

Not only does this happen to LeBron, but it happens to Dwight Howard and other players that spend a lot of their day in the weight room.  Dwight Howard gets matched up, after a series of screens, with a SG or SF; what does the swingman do?  They flop and drop dead.  Dwight is given a foul and the weaker player is awarded a free pass.

This brings up two questions that I hope to have answered:

1. Is lifting weights and hitting the gym even necessary when you can just flop your way out of a situation?

and

2. How dominant would Shaq be nowadays that flopping is much more prevalent on cross-matchups as well as straight up matchups?

Where I come from, if you get stuck guarding a bigger guy in the post and he starts making his move, you do one of two things, hang on for dear life or work as hard as you can to not be dominated.  Why should a weaker player that doesn’t spend enough time in the weight room get the benefit?  What ever happend to telling someone, "hit them weight room" after a strong dunk over them?

Now, I’m not saying these smaller guys should get called with a foul.  

Think back to that LeBron-Livingston play.  If Livingston was 30lbs heavier, he wouldn’t have fallen, LeBron would have hit the shot, and we would have had a fun 2OT.  Why should LeBron use less of his strength simply because he’s being guarded by someone that weighs nearly 100lbs less than him?  Where I come from, that’s a mismatch and the stronger player should use any advantage he can get.

Why should a player use less of their strength because they’re being guarded by someone that is weaker?  Isn’t that why you spend all that time in the weight room, for moments like these?  Why should the referee even make that call when they know that the offensive players are just using their strength and main advantage over a weaker player?

Next time you’re at the gym and are being guarded by someone that weighs significantly less and is smaller than you, are you going to take it easy on them because they weigh less or pulverize them to teach them a lesson?

What ever happend to telling your opponent, "Hit the weight room."?

[BigChamp12Participant]

I felt the same way when watching. Livingston flopped. He sold it pretty good. But that was a no call. I’m not even upset about the flop. Im upset that refs continue to get fooled play after play.

Refs blow their whistle if they see a guy throw their hands in the air and fall to the ground. I thought you were supposed to actually see a foul to call it. Not just see a reaction and asssume a foul happened. That’s the part I dont understand.

I watched the Rockets and Hawks game last night. Dwight HOward had 4 fouls, ALL were Offensive/lose ball fouls But they were horrible calls. Refs allowed Pero Antic, whose bigger than Dwight, to push, grab, elbow knee and do everything esle to get Dwight out of the paint, but anytime Dwight gave a little push back, Antic would flare his arms up of drop to the ground. Foul on Howard. I dont get it. If you’re going to let guys wrestle, then let both of them do it. Don’t penalize the stronger guy for it. ITs just very unfair that refs continue to call the game that way.

There was one play where they were battling to get position for the rebound. The locked arms, however Dwight was able to jump and grab the board with one hand. When he came down, his other arm was around Antic’s shoulder causing Antic to scream for a foul. The refs undoubtedly blew the whistle. Crazy

[BigChamp12Participant]

I felt the same way when watching. Livingston flopped. He sold it pretty good. But that was a no call. I’m not even upset about the flop. Im upset that refs continue to get fooled play after play.

Refs blow their whistle if they see a guy throw their hands in the air and fall to the ground. I thought you were supposed to actually see a foul to call it. Not just see a reaction and asssume a foul happened. That’s the part I dont understand.

I watched the Rockets and Hawks game last night. Dwight HOward had 4 fouls, ALL were Offensive/lose ball fouls But they were horrible calls. Refs allowed Pero Antic, whose bigger than Dwight, to push, grab, elbow knee and do everything esle to get Dwight out of the paint, but anytime Dwight gave a little push back, Antic would flare his arms up of drop to the ground. Foul on Howard. I dont get it. If you’re going to let guys wrestle, then let both of them do it. Don’t penalize the stronger guy for it. ITs just very unfair that refs continue to call the game that way.

There was one play where they were battling to get position for the rebound. The locked arms, however Dwight was able to jump and grab the board with one hand. When he came down, his other arm was around Antic’s shoulder causing Antic to scream for a foul. The refs undoubtedly blew the whistle. Crazy

[SupParticipant]

He beat him to the spot. Good defense. He was better than Lebron James on that play!

[SupParticipant]

He beat him to the spot. Good defense. He was better than Lebron James on that play!

[ChewyParticipant]

 1. Yes, ofcourse it still matters. Are there going to be some plays where players get bailed out by flopping/refs? Sure, and we will remember these plays because they stick out more. But we have to remember that players are fighting through screen and pushing for rebounding position every play. Strength matters, ask KD how much he enjoys playing againts Metta WP? Durant couldn’t get into the lane because he know crazy Metta was going to throw a bow into his side and push him out. Boarderline dirty/physical, but the point is strength matters every play.

2. I think Shaq would be fine for a few reasons: He is a likeable star and the NBA takes care of it’s stars. He is an outspoken star, so if he was getting cheap charge calls then the entire sports world would know about it. Everytime. Last, he had Phil Jackson who was an excellent ref manipulator. If he still had Phil as a coach getting it into the refs head that Shaq is innocent, then yes he would be dominant.

[ChewyParticipant]

 1. Yes, ofcourse it still matters. Are there going to be some plays where players get bailed out by flopping/refs? Sure, and we will remember these plays because they stick out more. But we have to remember that players are fighting through screen and pushing for rebounding position every play. Strength matters, ask KD how much he enjoys playing againts Metta WP? Durant couldn’t get into the lane because he know crazy Metta was going to throw a bow into his side and push him out. Boarderline dirty/physical, but the point is strength matters every play.

2. I think Shaq would be fine for a few reasons: He is a likeable star and the NBA takes care of it’s stars. He is an outspoken star, so if he was getting cheap charge calls then the entire sports world would know about it. Everytime. Last, he had Phil Jackson who was an excellent ref manipulator. If he still had Phil as a coach getting it into the refs head that Shaq is innocent, then yes he would be dominant.

[Yandyhere2Participant]

 Yes lifting is important, it gives you strength of course, but the main reason most guys in the NBA lift is because it gives your body more endurance.

You have your freaks who lift and get brolic like Lebron,Bledsoe,Ibaka etc. But they are the few that get superjacked, most NBA players are toned with a little muscle mass, most do it for endurance purposes.

 

[Yandyhere2Participant]

 Yes lifting is important, it gives you strength of course, but the main reason most guys in the NBA lift is because it gives your body more endurance.

You have your freaks who lift and get brolic like Lebron,Bledsoe,Ibaka etc. But they are the few that get superjacked, most NBA players are toned with a little muscle mass, most do it for endurance purposes.

 

[MikezParticipant]

 NBA basketball is about mechanics, shooting, dribbling, positioning.  If you want to see muscle ball go watch street ball

[MikezParticipant]

 NBA basketball is about mechanics, shooting, dribbling, positioning.  If you want to see muscle ball go watch street ball

[JoeWolf1]

This is an outside the box, and creative look, but one I strongly disagree with.

 Imagine Kevin Durant without the athleticsm he’s added through weight training. He’d be good, but you wouldn’t see him flying down the lane and getting his head near the rim. There are a lot of natural athletes in the league, but through the advances in weight training guys who are average or above average that take advantage of proper training have helped advance their games by ADDING athletic ability.

Being buff or being able to bench a lot isn’t the only benefit of training. It’s speed, it’s getting off the ground quicker, it’s better endurance. These things help you in basketball PERIOD.

Also, the league leaders in foul outs have fouled out 3 games thus far. That is about 8% of their games. Lebron hasn’t fouled out since 2008, so since he fouled out one time in say…400 or 500 games we’re taking a closer at weight training because a skinny guy took a charge? Meh. As far as I’m concerned, that’s too far of a reach.

[JoeWolf1]

This is an outside the box, and creative look, but one I strongly disagree with.

 Imagine Kevin Durant without the athleticsm he’s added through weight training. He’d be good, but you wouldn’t see him flying down the lane and getting his head near the rim. There are a lot of natural athletes in the league, but through the advances in weight training guys who are average or above average that take advantage of proper training have helped advance their games by ADDING athletic ability.

Being buff or being able to bench a lot isn’t the only benefit of training. It’s speed, it’s getting off the ground quicker, it’s better endurance. These things help you in basketball PERIOD.

Also, the league leaders in foul outs have fouled out 3 games thus far. That is about 8% of their games. Lebron hasn’t fouled out since 2008, so since he fouled out one time in say…400 or 500 games we’re taking a closer at weight training because a skinny guy took a charge? Meh. As far as I’m concerned, that’s too far of a reach.

[ProudGrandpaParticipant]

 How is a skinnier big man supposed to hold post position against huge big man?  The skinnier big man isn’t just going to be able to live and die by getting charge calls.  A smart, ripped big guy will simply tear him apart

[ProudGrandpaParticipant]

 How is a skinnier big man supposed to hold post position against huge big man?  The skinnier big man isn’t just going to be able to live and die by getting charge calls.  A smart, ripped big guy will simply tear him apart

[ShekiruBoomParticipant]

 thought Livingston took a charge on that play. I have never seen anyone draw a charging call without falling so lol. Hmm wait is it still a charge if a strong player like Shaq set up to take a charge with all the proper positioning but doesn’t fall down and instead just gets pushed back or maybe if even the offensive player falls down instead?

[ShekiruBoomParticipant]

 thought Livingston took a charge on that play. I have never seen anyone draw a charging call without falling so lol. Hmm wait is it still a charge if a strong player like Shaq set up to take a charge with all the proper positioning but doesn’t fall down and instead just gets pushed back or maybe if even the offensive player falls down instead?

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

Things like this is what I mean^

At times, it seems as if stronger players in the NBA have it worst.  If Shaq would have been hit hard but doesn’t fall, nobody would call a foul.  On the other hand, if someone like Livingston would be hit with the same strength, he would definitely fall and an offensive foul would be called.

Why should a player use less strength while playing against a weaker defender?  When is it the defender responsibility to man-up and hit the weight room?  Why do referee’s cater to thinner and weaker players?

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

Things like this is what I mean^

At times, it seems as if stronger players in the NBA have it worst.  If Shaq would have been hit hard but doesn’t fall, nobody would call a foul.  On the other hand, if someone like Livingston would be hit with the same strength, he would definitely fall and an offensive foul would be called.

Why should a player use less strength while playing against a weaker defender?  When is it the defender responsibility to man-up and hit the weight room?  Why do referee’s cater to thinner and weaker players?

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

A few of you guys understood this and a couple didn’t.

My issue isn’t that play in particular but all plays where a strong player is matched-up against a small player.

Let’s go back to that same play and replace Livingston with Ron Artest, a significantly stronger player.  If LeBron uses the same amount of strength, Artest wouldn’t fall, and there wouldn’t be a foul called.  But because Shaun Livingston is weaker, LeBron had to use less strength than he normally would.

In today’s NBA, the referees do not allow players to take advantage of strength match-ups.  If somehow, Hibbert would get matched-up against Ilyasova down low and Hibbert began to take him to work, an offensive foul would be called on Hibbert because he’s too strong for Ilyasova.

Whereas is Hibbert is matched-up against Omer Asik and he uses the same amount of strength, no foul would be called.

Why should NBA players have to use less strength when being guarded by weaker defenders?

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

A few of you guys understood this and a couple didn’t.

My issue isn’t that play in particular but all plays where a strong player is matched-up against a small player.

Let’s go back to that same play and replace Livingston with Ron Artest, a significantly stronger player.  If LeBron uses the same amount of strength, Artest wouldn’t fall, and there wouldn’t be a foul called.  But because Shaun Livingston is weaker, LeBron had to use less strength than he normally would.

In today’s NBA, the referees do not allow players to take advantage of strength match-ups.  If somehow, Hibbert would get matched-up against Ilyasova down low and Hibbert began to take him to work, an offensive foul would be called on Hibbert because he’s too strong for Ilyasova.

Whereas is Hibbert is matched-up against Omer Asik and he uses the same amount of strength, no foul would be called.

Why should NBA players have to use less strength when being guarded by weaker defenders?

[King CaluchaParticipant]

Hmmm… this is a misconcept. Actually, when a player is holding position defensively, he shouldn’t be moving. Therefore, there’s no way the player doesn’t fall if he takes a charge from an offensive player. To me it was good defense by Livingston.

I just don’t understand how a discussion about hitting the gym can be brought to the table only because Lebron fouled out… smh

[King CaluchaParticipant]

Hmmm… this is a misconcept. Actually, when a player is holding position defensively, he shouldn’t be moving. Therefore, there’s no way the player doesn’t fall if he takes a charge from an offensive player. To me it was good defense by Livingston.

I just don’t understand how a discussion about hitting the gym can be brought to the table only because Lebron fouled out… smh

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