[NorrinRaddParticipant]

Who’s the better prospect?

Both these prospects are ranging relatively close to each other in ranking and play the same position… CMB is ranked higher by the consensus, but Fleming isn’t that far off. I like what CMB brings to the table, but Fleming to me is more versatile and can switch better on defense. Both can defend well imo though, but Fleming gets the edge there… Both don’t have a huge 3 point shot repetitions to make a clear case that that’s what they are, but it seems like Fleming’s shot is more believable. Imo Fleming is the better shooter though, although it wasn’t the biggest sample – I believe in Fleming’s shooting. I think CMB is a great rebounder and is mobile for his frame. He’s an underrated passer and can even handle the ball a little. I’d say CMB gets those nods… At the end of the day though, I’d go against the consensus and go with Fleming as the better prospect.

[HitsterParticipant]

CMB is probably the better player now but I’d take Rasher on upside and his defensive potential.

[BothTeamsPlayedHard-Participant]

With Fleming, a team can get a guy who is big enough and long enough to play the 5 against center-less opponents. He could allow teams to “go small” while not giving up length. He can play at the arc, but also crashes from there. Not everyone has that mentality. I think he ends up setting in perfectly in the Houston, Portland, Chicago, Atlanta, SA, and OKC range of the 1st round. He seems like a Udoka guy, and there probably aren’t a ton of guys who fit his style while also being good enough to have a chance to crack their rotation. Murray-Boyles is going to be undersized for the 4, and has not proven to be able to shoot. He isn’t an Aaron Gordon-level athlete. When you start looking around the league, it is hard to see someone like that who gets minutes. Is he another Olivier-Maxence Prosper? Could he be as versatile defensively as Ryan Dunn and Herbert Jones? Jones, Prosper, and Dunn are leaner and more explosive athletes. Would a team give him the time the Heat did Haywood Highsmith to have his shot come around? PJ Washington came into the league with a more developed shot. It is harder to find a range that makes more sense.

[HitsterParticipant]

Excellent places for Fleming to land BTPH. Portland was a slight query as they have Grant as their main PF but he has had injury issues so Rasher gives another option there and Ayton is going into his last year.

CMB isa guy who could land anywhere from later lottery to early 2nd round.

[OhCanada-Participant]

To me CMB is going to need to be around a very specific cast of players in order to thrive assuming his below 30% shooting and 70% FT’s stays true at the next level. He can also slot in as a versatile jack of all trades type of forward although the issue there is he will always be another guy on the floor who cannot space the floor. Ideally you want to put him alongside another big who can space the floor although there just are not many of those guys in the league. You could play him as an undersized C but now he doesn’t space the floor and he is giving up size and length at that position.

He needs to land in the right situation. Chicago is a good fit with Vucevic but how long are the Bulls going to be able to rely on Vucevic. OKC could be another good fit if he plays on the floor spot minutes with Holmgren but imo there are just better options and I think they are more likely to stash a player. Washiungton could be a decent fit as Alex Sarr continues to develop his jumpshot. Utah with Lauri Markannen. Its just an odd fit wherever he goes.

Fleming in theory seems like the ideal NBA player being able to play 3, 4 and 5 although I have my doubts. He is very hesitant when asked about playing the Center position at the next level. He lacks the ballhandling, shot creation and playmaking you want from a forward. As a Center he fits in perfectly as a floor spacer and rim runner and his mobility, 7’5 wingspan and 240 pound weight seems more than ideal defensively although time and time again he has stated ‘longterm’ he veiws himself as a forward. When he starts banging with those big 280 pound Centers or even those 2% body fat guys like Jalen Duren its not going to be fun. The NBA is physical right now. Guys get hurt being “versatile”. I see it every year when Scottie plays Center hes been taken out by Jokic and Embiid. Holmgran is another example, hes been taken out a few times. If your not committed to be the more physical player it can be dangerous.

All that being said if both players resolve these questions meaning CMB develops into a respectable floor spacer and Fleming becomes capable of playing 60% of his minutes as a Center I still like the idea of Flemings ceiling more than Murray Boyles.

[HitsterParticipant]

Fleming at 240lbs and not being a 7ft plus very skinny guy should be able to hold his own against a lot of C’s. The likes of Embeast and Jokic are a mismatch for most guys. The idea that Fleming could play some SF intrigues me as there he’d surely have size advantage against most guys.

CMB has a wingspan over 4 inches less than Fleming so to be drafted above him he’d need to be a way better scorer but I just don’t see that. If other bigs get drafted earlier than CMB may well go inside top 20 to 25 but if others remain available I could see him falling.

Guys like Kalkbrenner, Wolf and Raynaud are probably more NBA ready than CMB and all have considerable size advantage. That is before we factor in someone taking a fences swing on Zikarsky, Yang etc.

[BothTeamsPlayedHard-Participant]

I think there is a difference between Fleming being able to play center-less 5 minutes and center. If you think about the home run outcome for Fleming, he is another Jaren Jackson Jr. If Jackson is your only option at center, you are going to have problems against the real ones. If allowed to maneuver between the 4 and 5 depending on matchups, he can be really valuable. In Houston, I think he would play quite of the 4 alongside Sengun, but there would be value in having a shot blocker at the 4, similar to Aaron Gordon with Jokic. Also, when you have a creative passing center, a front court partner who can move off the ball also is an asset. In Chicago, it could work with Vucevic in a somewhat similar way, but also try a long center-less look with Buzelis and Fleming that could really be something long-term. A lineup with Giddey, White, Buzelis, Fleming, and some combination of Dosunmu, Hurter, or Williams would be pretty long even without a proper center. If a taste of that look works, they can still address a successor to Vucevic down the road.

[HitsterParticipant]

The NBA has become more positionless or teams at least play a different type of basketball so that the bigger half court C’s have become less common. But size is still important and if we had a new batch of throwback bigs who could get to the basket and score they would still be in demand but might not have whole teams built around them unless we got a Shaq 2.0.

Having another look at Rasher and CMB’s skillsets the only thing I could give CMB the real advantage with is his creative game. Rasher though has a nice understanding of the game has a better 3 point range, size, slightly better FT percentage.

Any chance of doing Sorber vs Rasher as a comparison Norrin or Kalkbrenner vs Raynaud?

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

Yeah, I had to throw this one out here because CMB has been ranked higher by the consensus all year and still is!!!
As for Kalkbrenner vs Raynaud, Idk maybe… it’s possible Oh Canada might have an idea with one of those guys too, but in general I’d try not to repeat a guy in vs unless it’s more of a rank em’… (considering doing that) and in that case I might do 5 prospects… but since I just did Fleming, I generally wouldn’t put him up again. I’m curious though now I have to admit on who you got there Hitster between Sorber and Fleming…

[OhCanada-Participant]

Theres a few I want to do but we need to see who stays in the draft as far as the international prospects go. Thats why I’ve slowed down a bit. Weve already done Miles Byrd and Labaron Philon who are returning to school. And at the end of the day Norrin kept this thing going while I was away last year.

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

Yeah, Labaron really fooled us saying he was all in.

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

So, it looks like we like Fleming better, but here we are and CMB was picked 9 and Fleming is in the 2nd round.

[OhCanada-Participant]

I recently changed my opinion on Fleming, even before the draft. I had Fleming sliding to 23 and CMB getting picked at 22. I wanted to put CMB higher because there were people that had him top 5 on their big boards but there wasnt much noise about him especially after the poor combine. I couldnt see the fit. Rasheer got killed in group workouts and interveiwed poorly, I just wasnt sure how far his slide would be.

I like CMB more for sure especially now that the Raptors picked him. That should tell everybody that hes legit. Raptors dont miss. Will there be a better player picked 10 to 59, I’m certain there will be. But its clear Toronto is committed to playing a certain style of defense and having a team full of players that can guard 1 through 5. Toronto had a top 5 defence in the 2nd half of the season albeit against a very weak schedule but thats also while tanking. They want to force turnovers and play in transition and CMB is going to fit that identity and culture. Its going to be very annoying to play Toronto with Barnes, CMB and Mogbo, we have three Draymond Green copycats.

I still have the same concerns about CMB but now instead of those concerns I have expectations that go along with being the 9th selection. Instead of asking “whats his position?” I expect him to be able to guard 1 through 5, I expect him to thrive despite being undersized and I expect him to improve his jumpshot.

Pensare brought up a good point on draft day. He had CMB 8th on his board. He mentioned Raptors fans are wondering why we would pick CMB when we already have Mogbo. Mogbo averaged 13-ppg, 11-rpg, 9-apg, 2.5-sp and 1-bpg in the last 4 games of the season and Toronto was 2 and 2 in those games. If you havent seen those highlights I suggest you check them out. Very intriguing player. He continued CMB is 3 years younger than Mogbo and better right now. The idea with CMB is that he should be able to replicate that same production immediately all year long without being a liability on offense. Now I don’t expect him to average 11 rebounds and 9 assists but it will be very interesting to see how much of an impact he can have defensively and as a playmaker when he isnt his teams 1st option.

[HitsterParticipant]

The Raptors are almost moving towards a lot of their line up being interchangeable sort of “positionless” basketball. There is no outstanding ball carrier but a lot of good able ball carriers and they can vary this play by play. How this messes up the opposition’s defensive match ups I don’t know.

CMB had been talked about as a possible first rounder if he had declared last year and this most recent college season he put up far better numbers. He is very solidly built but might be undersized to play full time C but I don’t think the Raptors will have a full time C.

Some respected mocks had CMB top 10 and whilst I didn’t we have to respect their views as they were correct.

The Raptors will improve next season and likely make play ins. By how much I don’t know but if they aren’t pretty near 0.500 if everyone stays fit I’d be disappointed.

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

I don’t hate CMB, but I was higher on him last year… and I think Fleming is going to be a heck of an NBA player. Cam Whitmore didn’t interview well either and that’s why he slid… I’m a big believer in him still.

[OhCanada-Participant]

Thats a very good point. Pen also touched on that. Everyone on the team is a playmaker. Nobody has bad vision/passing. You don’t play if you cant pass the ball in Toronto. They just need to address the shooting now as they were the worst shooting team in the NBA last year. Its really all on Scottie, if he makes the jump and puts in the work, sets the tone for others to follow him then it will be alot easier for CMB and Mogbo to follow suit. Derozan went to every summer league during his time with Toronto. He was an outstanding leader.

As for CMB’s size I pulled this up on a realgm board.

Paul Milsap
Height no shoes: 6-6¼
Wingspan: 7-1½
Standing reach: 8-9
Lane Agility: 11.67s
Shuttle: n/a
¾ Sprint: 3.66
Vertical: 32½”

Draymond Green
Height no shoes: 6-5¾
Wingspan: 7-1¼
Standing reach: 8-9
Lane Agility: 11.01s
Shuttle: n/a
¾ Sprint: 3.40
Vertical: 33″

Julius Randle
Height no shoes: 6-7¾
Wingspan: 7-0
Standing reach: 8-9
Lane Agillity: 11.45s
Shuttle: 3.14s
¾ Sprint: 3.27s
Vertical: 35½”

CMB
Height no shoes: 6-6½
Wingspan: 7-0¾
Standing reach: 8-10
Lane Agillity: 11.21s
Shuttle: 2.86s
¾ Sprint: 3.15s
Vertical: 34½”

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

I think he’s similar to Anthony Mason… been saying that for a while, so it’s not bad but just redundant and a reach for me.

[HitsterParticipant]

Paul Millsap is a very good size comparison for CMB and both make up for slight lack of height with a very powerful build giving them a very solid base and they can lean into and push about the taller skinny guys.

If CMB could start out at something like Millsap was his 2nd or 3rd season and get to anywhere the level he was then he’ll be a great choice.

[Author]

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