[high floorParticipant]

How would you all rank these 3 point guards on upside and ability to lead their teams to consistent deep playoff runs?

Their jumpshots & overall shot selection are well known weaknesses, but of the 3 who figures this deficiency out first? What other parts of their individual game stand out more positively versus the other two? Interested to hear the forum’s take

 

[T Rex]

 Smart by a longshot. Smart is already a playoff point guard, with like a 55-60% winning % as a starter.

The Celtics were the best 4th quarter team in the NBA after the All Star Break, and they didn’t skip a beat when IT4 went down with a bruised tailbone.

Being a great player isn’t just about individual stats, either. It’s about inspiring confidence/swagger in your teammates. Not many leaders can do it, but Smart can, and did. As a rookie.

Smart’s already average 3 point shot, which was above average after December, puts him in another category than Payton and MCW. Those guys have minimal versatility, and their lack of a 3 point shot means their man can and does sag off and cripple the offensive flow of Payton and MCW’s teams.

For all the hype the Bucks and Magic get for their bright futures, both teams still have terrible floor spacing, and Payton and MCW don’t help with that one iota.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[T Rex]

 Smart by a longshot. Smart is already a playoff point guard, with like a 55-60% winning % as a starter.

The Celtics were the best 4th quarter team in the NBA after the All Star Break, and they didn’t skip a beat when IT4 went down with a bruised tailbone.

Being a great player isn’t just about individual stats, either. It’s about inspiring confidence/swagger in your teammates. Not many leaders can do it, but Smart can, and did. As a rookie.

Smart’s already average 3 point shot, which was above average after December, puts him in another category than Payton and MCW. Those guys have minimal versatility, and their lack of a 3 point shot means their man can and does sag off and cripple the offensive flow of Payton and MCW’s teams.

For all the hype the Bucks and Magic get for their bright futures, both teams still have terrible floor spacing, and Payton and MCW don’t help with that one iota.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[T Rex]

 If the Magic want to actually win games this year, I’m not even sure if Payton should start.

Payton and Oladipo are both good players in a vaccum, but together as starters they don’t really work with the rest of that Magic roster.

Oladipo showed a nicely improved 3 point shot, and I think Hezonja and Aaron Gordon have enough ball skills to compensate for Oladipo’s less than ideal point guard skills.

Oladipo

Hezonja

Tobias

Gordon

Vucivic

 Have Payton come off the bench with a stretch big like Frye

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[T Rex]

 If the Magic want to actually win games this year, I’m not even sure if Payton should start.

Payton and Oladipo are both good players in a vaccum, but together as starters they don’t really work with the rest of that Magic roster.

Oladipo showed a nicely improved 3 point shot, and I think Hezonja and Aaron Gordon have enough ball skills to compensate for Oladipo’s less than ideal point guard skills.

Oladipo

Hezonja

Tobias

Gordon

Vucivic

 Have Payton come off the bench with a stretch big like Frye

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ChicagoCaseyParticipant]

 

1. Elfrid Payton 
2. Marcus Smart 
3. Michael Carter-Williams 

I feel like the seperation between Elfrid Payton is IQ and the fact that his vision seperates him from both Marcus Smart and Michael Carter-Williams. Marcus Smart have a very low IQ and he don’t have the passing vsision as Elfrid Payton. MCW is a good passer, but I don’t believe he have the vision as Payton

[ChicagoCaseyParticipant]

 

1. Elfrid Payton 
2. Marcus Smart 
3. Michael Carter-Williams 

I feel like the seperation between Elfrid Payton is IQ and the fact that his vision seperates him from both Marcus Smart and Michael Carter-Williams. Marcus Smart have a very low IQ and he don’t have the passing vsision as Elfrid Payton. MCW is a good passer, but I don’t believe he have the vision as Payton

[Flameres15Participant]

1. Marcus Smart. Of the three point guards, Smart is the best three point shooter. He is not a good shooter, but he is a decent shooter. If he can continue to work on his shot, he could be the best point guard of the three. He also has one of the best shooters in the league as a team mate in Isaiah Thomas, and Smart should take full advantage of Thomas. Also, Smart takes more threes as a percentage of his shots than the two other players.

2. Michael Carter-Williams. I give the second spot to MCW because he is already on a playoff team. Carter-Williams is also being coached by Jason Kidd, one of the best point guards who developed a decent shot, but that was not his game. If MCW keeps working with Jason Kidd, then he should be at the top of the point guard rankings. Also, looking to per 100 posessions, MCW is the highest scoring player, which should help a lot. Also being on the Bucks with Khris Middelton, Jabari Parker, and other three point role players, MCW shouldn’t have to worry about his shot all that much.

3. Elfid Payton. His rise up the draft boards was correct, and if the draft was today he would go even higher than #10. However, his fit with the Magic is suspect. Payton is the worst three point shooter of the three. I say this because he only took 42 threes, and while his shooting percentage was higher than MCW, Payton had a smaller sample size. I don’t see how Oladipo and Payton fit in the backcourt. I would think Oladipo and Hezonja in the backcourt would be a better fit. I envision a midseason trade to figure out the roster.

 

 

[Flameres15Participant]

1. Marcus Smart. Of the three point guards, Smart is the best three point shooter. He is not a good shooter, but he is a decent shooter. If he can continue to work on his shot, he could be the best point guard of the three. He also has one of the best shooters in the league as a team mate in Isaiah Thomas, and Smart should take full advantage of Thomas. Also, Smart takes more threes as a percentage of his shots than the two other players.

2. Michael Carter-Williams. I give the second spot to MCW because he is already on a playoff team. Carter-Williams is also being coached by Jason Kidd, one of the best point guards who developed a decent shot, but that was not his game. If MCW keeps working with Jason Kidd, then he should be at the top of the point guard rankings. Also, looking to per 100 posessions, MCW is the highest scoring player, which should help a lot. Also being on the Bucks with Khris Middelton, Jabari Parker, and other three point role players, MCW shouldn’t have to worry about his shot all that much.

3. Elfid Payton. His rise up the draft boards was correct, and if the draft was today he would go even higher than #10. However, his fit with the Magic is suspect. Payton is the worst three point shooter of the three. I say this because he only took 42 threes, and while his shooting percentage was higher than MCW, Payton had a smaller sample size. I don’t see how Oladipo and Payton fit in the backcourt. I would think Oladipo and Hezonja in the backcourt would be a better fit. I envision a midseason trade to figure out the roster.

 

 

[RecoveringVegetarianParticipant]

 Hey now!! Fools still talking bout Smart is a point guard.. But it was Turner,Bradley and Thomas who Stevens had running the show most of last season!!!!!!!!

[RecoveringVegetarianParticipant]

 Hey now!! Fools still talking bout Smart is a point guard.. But it was Turner,Bradley and Thomas who Stevens had running the show most of last season!!!!!!!!

[Rip255]

 I’m no Marcus Smart lover, but there was some pretty compelling points made in the previous thread by that Celtics draft guru. 

I’d be happy with any of the 3 and it’s probably a wash on defense. I think Smart has the most offensive upside, so I’ll go with him. 

 

[Rip255]

 I’m no Marcus Smart lover, but there was some pretty compelling points made in the previous thread by that Celtics draft guru. 

I’d be happy with any of the 3 and it’s probably a wash on defense. I think Smart has the most offensive upside, so I’ll go with him. 

 

[B-ball fanParticipant]

 Smart has the most upside.  Good defender, can play both on and off the ball.  If he is able to up the efficiency on his outside shot and become a better ball handler, he could be an excellent PG.

MCW looked like he has really made major adjustments to his shot at the Team USA showcase, so his jumper may have a little more potential than Payton’s.  Payton is more creative on offense and is a more slippery ball handler, but MCW is the better defender.  I’d say MCW has more upside, since I think there is a better chance he becomes a capable outsider shooter, but the lack of shooting by each player limits their upside.

[B-ball fanParticipant]

 Smart has the most upside.  Good defender, can play both on and off the ball.  If he is able to up the efficiency on his outside shot and become a better ball handler, he could be an excellent PG.

MCW looked like he has really made major adjustments to his shot at the Team USA showcase, so his jumper may have a little more potential than Payton’s.  Payton is more creative on offense and is a more slippery ball handler, but MCW is the better defender.  I’d say MCW has more upside, since I think there is a better chance he becomes a capable outsider shooter, but the lack of shooting by each player limits their upside.

[IlladelphParticipant]

If you ignore which team these guys play on, and focus on their individual attributes, here is how I rank these guards:

 

1.  Marcus Smart – Strongest of the three.  Best finisher of the three.  Better long ball shooter.  Not as quick as the other two, but much better in transition.  Slightly better than average ISO game.

2.  MCW – Potential to be best of this group, but needs a higher percentage from long range.  He is not a very efficient shooter.  Best of these three in the half court set.  Average ISO game.

3.  Payton – Was great in college against inferior competition.  Admittedly I have seen him play only a few times, but he struggles against NBA defenses, and efficiency is a problem.  I think he has most upside of these three at this point but so far I am unimpressed with his output.  He might be better off in a more traditional set with a dominant big man on his team.

 

[IlladelphParticipant]

If you ignore which team these guys play on, and focus on their individual attributes, here is how I rank these guards:

 

1.  Marcus Smart – Strongest of the three.  Best finisher of the three.  Better long ball shooter.  Not as quick as the other two, but much better in transition.  Slightly better than average ISO game.

2.  MCW – Potential to be best of this group, but needs a higher percentage from long range.  He is not a very efficient shooter.  Best of these three in the half court set.  Average ISO game.

3.  Payton – Was great in college against inferior competition.  Admittedly I have seen him play only a few times, but he struggles against NBA defenses, and efficiency is a problem.  I think he has most upside of these three at this point but so far I am unimpressed with his output.  He might be better off in a more traditional set with a dominant big man on his team.

 

[Meditated StatesParticipant]

 Research the percentage of shots Smart takes and realize they are majority all threes. 35 percent is solid if most of his shots are not 3’s. If you watch Smart almost all his shots taken are 3’s. I hope he does become better than the others but stats lie if you dont look at the whole picture. Man takes 120 shots 80 are from 3 and he shoots 35 percent is that really good?

[Meditated StatesParticipant]

 Research the percentage of shots Smart takes and realize they are majority all threes. 35 percent is solid if most of his shots are not 3’s. If you watch Smart almost all his shots taken are 3’s. I hope he does become better than the others but stats lie if you dont look at the whole picture. Man takes 120 shots 80 are from 3 and he shoots 35 percent is that really good?

[publius2481Participant]

 He is the best defender (when in doubt I always go with the best defensive player) and already has a decent three point shot. He is two years younger than MWC and I think already a better player. Payton is the same age, but Smart has shown more ability. Also, Smart was playing with a pretty severe ankle injury much of the year, so he will probably take a leap forward just based on health, especially his ability to attack the rim.

[publius2481Participant]

 He is the best defender (when in doubt I always go with the best defensive player) and already has a decent three point shot. He is two years younger than MWC and I think already a better player. Payton is the same age, but Smart has shown more ability. Also, Smart was playing with a pretty severe ankle injury much of the year, so he will probably take a leap forward just based on health, especially his ability to attack the rim.

[JR RyderParticipant]

1) Elfrid Payton – He has better court vision than Smart, and a little more efficient than MCW.

2)MCW – He has already shown he is a capable starting PG. I believe a better jumpshot will make him an all-star PG. Problem is he has been an awful jumpshooter since college and has never improved.

3) Smart – I put him third simply because there are questions whether he is even a PG in the future. I have not been impressed with his vision and passing. Weak jumpshot. He is strong and athletic which makes him a formidable defender. Other than that, he has the most holes in his game out of these 3 PGs.

[JR RyderParticipant]

1) Elfrid Payton – He has better court vision than Smart, and a little more efficient than MCW.

2)MCW – He has already shown he is a capable starting PG. I believe a better jumpshot will make him an all-star PG. Problem is he has been an awful jumpshooter since college and has never improved.

3) Smart – I put him third simply because there are questions whether he is even a PG in the future. I have not been impressed with his vision and passing. Weak jumpshot. He is strong and athletic which makes him a formidable defender. Other than that, he has the most holes in his game out of these 3 PGs.

[sitlbitoParticipant]

 Elfrid Payton is ahead because if he buys anything ressembling to a jumpshot,he’ll be a star. The other two are further away from being all stars.

[sitlbitoParticipant]

 Elfrid Payton is ahead because if he buys anything ressembling to a jumpshot,he’ll be a star. The other two are further away from being all stars.

[NBAjunkie81Participant]

Smart – who turned 21 by the end of the 2015 season is a rugged 6’4” 220 lbs & was drafted #6 overall in the 2014 NBA Draft. He averaged 7.8 points, 3.3 rebounds, 3.1 assists, 1.5 steals, 37% FG%, 1.9 FTA & 34% 3PT%… Smart has superior size & athleticism & he is a Rugged, physical defender & most fans Fail to grasp what an advantage a team has when their PG is a physical, lock down "on ball" defender who needs NO help gaurding the opponents PG….

MCW is a stat sheet stuffer. He always puts crazy #’s for a 2nd year player: 15.7 points, 6.5 assists & 5.8 rebounds, 40.1% FG%, 25.2 3pt% & an Excellent 4.8 FTA’s/ per game… MCW is LONG. At 6’6” but only 185 lbs, he’s got an incredible wing span (something Phila LOVES!) Imagine the projected starting 5 for Phila 2016 team last Christmas: 1 – PG MCW; 2 – SG McDaniels; 3 – SF Jerami Grant; 4 – PF Nerlens Noel & the 5 – C Joel Embiid… That team would have been the longest wing spanned starting 5 in NBA history, probably would have been the Best defensive team in the Easter Conference & would have challenged for a playoff spot & would have been a Lock to set a record for blocked shots…. Anyway, I digress. As you can see MCW is a terrible shooter but he offsets that by getting to the Rim & drawing fouls…. But more & more PG’s who can NOT shoot – no matter how well they drive the Rim – are disappearing… Just like the traditional Monster Center collapses the defense thus creating space, teams now understand that a High 3 point % shooting PG stretches it the other way… Even a great PG such as Rajon Rondo has become irrelevant b/c he can NOT shoot Anymore – BUT Rondo could shoot before – he shot 50% in BOTH 2008 & 09 & even though he has been Horrific the last two years at Sub 43% that is Still better than MCW & Rondo’s career FG% is VERY respectable 47%  – Conversely MCW’s terrible 41% FG% in Milwaukee is actually a HUGE improvement over his career 38% FG% – That’s not 3point fg% that is 2pt FG%!!!! In addition Rondo was & still is a FAR bteer player than MCW & light years better defender. Bringing me to my Final MCW point, Carter-Williams w/ his long arms was a good "Help Defender" – meaning he could slide off his man & help out by blocking a shot. He also played w/ two of the TOP shot blockers in the NBA in Noel & Jerami Grant and his back court mate was another Outstanding young defender in K.J. McDaniels… McDaniel, Grant & Noel ALL averaged OVER 1.0 PLUS blocks per game!!! This is an Incredible Stat line & the main point here is that MCW, as I mentioned, was a decent "off ball" or Help defender but MCW is a terrible "on ball" defender… In fact, ANY remotely decent opposing PG just Destroys MCW off the dribble! The injured & rusty Derrick Rose took MCW apart at will in their 1st round playoff match up… The Bucks signing of Detroit free agent Center Greg Monroe was such a big deal b/c even though he does Not block many shots, he is still a presence in the paint which Milwaukee desperately needed… Sports Media RARELY report facts only story lines & No ONE chose to report that Milwaukee was 6 games over .500 on the day they gave the Sixers the Lakers LOTTERY pick for MCW & just 6 weeks later the Bucks were Clawing just to get BACK to .500 by the end of the regular season b/c MCW was a human Trunstile in their own end…

Finally, Elfin Payton is an Electric, exciting PG that interstingly enough was Drafted by the Sixers w/ the # 10 pick after Phila masterfully floated a rumor that MCW was on the block, Orlando called Sixers’ GM Sam Hinkie in a panic b/c the Magic had targeted Payton… Hinkie wanted the 2017 FIRST round pick that his predecessor Doug Collins gave Orlando as part of the 2012 Andrew Bynum trade that WRECKED Phila’s franchise… Orlando agreed to Draft 6′ 10” European prospect Dario Saric at #12 & send him, along w/ that 2017 #1 pick back to Phila for Payton… I like Peyton, he’s an excellent athlete, a good denfender, he can get to the basket… But Payton has Many of the same issues as MCW… at 6’4” 185 Payton is rail thin. He averaged 8.9 pts, 4.3 reb & 6.5 ast v.good #’s but like MCW a looter in a riot & Orlando & Milwaukee have Both been SO bad for So long you tend to disregard the good stats & look at other factors & Payton is a terrible shooter – 42% FG% & 26% 3pt%….

So that’s a synopsis of all 3… 

 I felt like Celtics GM Danny Aignes made a huge mistake acquiring Isaiah Thomas in the 2nd half of the Season just to make a playoff push. Thomas, the #60 overall pick in the 2011NBA Draft, is an excellent scorer 15.6 points, 4.4 assists, 44% FG% & 37% 3pt%… However, Thomas at 5’9” 185 lbs is a huge defensive liabiliy. In addition, has played for Four teams in Only Four seasons. And the Celtics misguided & foolish attempt to make the playoffs in 2015 by bringing in players like Thomas & Jae Crowder instead of acquiring more draft picks & continuing to lose which would have allowed their prospects to develop w/ more playing time & gaurenteed a MUCH higher Draft pick in the 2015 Draft. Playing Thomas stunted Smart’s growth & dented his confidence…. Boston further Ucked w/ Smart’s head by drafting 6’1 pg Rozier w/ the #16 pick… Now before anyone hurls criticism at me, I’m NOT crticizing Boston’s decision to bring in a couple average NBA players like Thomas & Crowder if that’s the duirection the team decided to go in. But clearly they are Not sure what they want to do b/c it was WELL publicized that Aigne offered the Phila Sixers ALL SIX 1st round picks Boston had acquired in 2015 & 2015 AND Smart, James Young & two other prospects in exchange for Nerlens Noel & the Sixers # 3 Pick (& remember this was Before the Draft & anyon knew that Jahlil Okafor would fall to # 3)…. Had Philly agreed to tghat trade – & I’m still trying to figure out why they did Not b/c all I have heard for two years is that Sixers GM Sam Hinkie cares about nothing but acquiring "assets" (picks, prospects & future considerations) – Aigne would have been considered a Genius but since he failed, Smart’s confidence to another hit.. And that’s my ctiticism. Had they stuck to their plan, Boston could have acquired WCS or Winslow or Myles Turner w/ a top 8 pick had they just stayed on course…. They could have even grabbed Both Sam Dekker & Frank Kaminsky which Boston would have love to go w/ Marcus Smart & James Young….

Still, I put Marcus Smart ahead of the other two as far as ceiling… I realize that right now Smart is prob third when gong by stats & the national media which constantly pointed out how bad MCW was for 18 months in Phila & then suddenly decided they luv him in Milwaukee may seem better… But MCW has hit his plateau – he is what he is & that is why he was drafted at #11 by Phila in 2013 in a Very weak draft… I dont think Smart is a future star but he is a bull dog on defense w/ real leadership potential, he’s got a big body… Whereas Payton & MCW are both decent players who will Never shoot even close to 45% & Niether can defend "on ball"… Sorry about the long post, I really enjoyed reading all of your posts… Great job!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NBAjunkie81Participant]

Smart – who turned 21 by the end of the 2015 season is a rugged 6’4” 220 lbs & was drafted #6 overall in the 2014 NBA Draft. He averaged 7.8 points, 3.3 rebounds, 3.1 assists, 1.5 steals, 37% FG%, 1.9 FTA & 34% 3PT%… Smart has superior size & athleticism & he is a Rugged, physical defender & most fans Fail to grasp what an advantage a team has when their PG is a physical, lock down "on ball" defender who needs NO help gaurding the opponents PG….

MCW is a stat sheet stuffer. He always puts crazy #’s for a 2nd year player: 15.7 points, 6.5 assists & 5.8 rebounds, 40.1% FG%, 25.2 3pt% & an Excellent 4.8 FTA’s/ per game… MCW is LONG. At 6’6” but only 185 lbs, he’s got an incredible wing span (something Phila LOVES!) Imagine the projected starting 5 for Phila 2016 team last Christmas: 1 – PG MCW; 2 – SG McDaniels; 3 – SF Jerami Grant; 4 – PF Nerlens Noel & the 5 – C Joel Embiid… That team would have been the longest wing spanned starting 5 in NBA history, probably would have been the Best defensive team in the Easter Conference & would have challenged for a playoff spot & would have been a Lock to set a record for blocked shots…. Anyway, I digress. As you can see MCW is a terrible shooter but he offsets that by getting to the Rim & drawing fouls…. But more & more PG’s who can NOT shoot – no matter how well they drive the Rim – are disappearing… Just like the traditional Monster Center collapses the defense thus creating space, teams now understand that a High 3 point % shooting PG stretches it the other way… Even a great PG such as Rajon Rondo has become irrelevant b/c he can NOT shoot Anymore – BUT Rondo could shoot before – he shot 50% in BOTH 2008 & 09 & even though he has been Horrific the last two years at Sub 43% that is Still better than MCW & Rondo’s career FG% is VERY respectable 47%  – Conversely MCW’s terrible 41% FG% in Milwaukee is actually a HUGE improvement over his career 38% FG% – That’s not 3point fg% that is 2pt FG%!!!! In addition Rondo was & still is a FAR bteer player than MCW & light years better defender. Bringing me to my Final MCW point, Carter-Williams w/ his long arms was a good "Help Defender" – meaning he could slide off his man & help out by blocking a shot. He also played w/ two of the TOP shot blockers in the NBA in Noel & Jerami Grant and his back court mate was another Outstanding young defender in K.J. McDaniels… McDaniel, Grant & Noel ALL averaged OVER 1.0 PLUS blocks per game!!! This is an Incredible Stat line & the main point here is that MCW, as I mentioned, was a decent "off ball" or Help defender but MCW is a terrible "on ball" defender… In fact, ANY remotely decent opposing PG just Destroys MCW off the dribble! The injured & rusty Derrick Rose took MCW apart at will in their 1st round playoff match up… The Bucks signing of Detroit free agent Center Greg Monroe was such a big deal b/c even though he does Not block many shots, he is still a presence in the paint which Milwaukee desperately needed… Sports Media RARELY report facts only story lines & No ONE chose to report that Milwaukee was 6 games over .500 on the day they gave the Sixers the Lakers LOTTERY pick for MCW & just 6 weeks later the Bucks were Clawing just to get BACK to .500 by the end of the regular season b/c MCW was a human Trunstile in their own end…

Finally, Elfin Payton is an Electric, exciting PG that interstingly enough was Drafted by the Sixers w/ the # 10 pick after Phila masterfully floated a rumor that MCW was on the block, Orlando called Sixers’ GM Sam Hinkie in a panic b/c the Magic had targeted Payton… Hinkie wanted the 2017 FIRST round pick that his predecessor Doug Collins gave Orlando as part of the 2012 Andrew Bynum trade that WRECKED Phila’s franchise… Orlando agreed to Draft 6′ 10” European prospect Dario Saric at #12 & send him, along w/ that 2017 #1 pick back to Phila for Payton… I like Peyton, he’s an excellent athlete, a good denfender, he can get to the basket… But Payton has Many of the same issues as MCW… at 6’4” 185 Payton is rail thin. He averaged 8.9 pts, 4.3 reb & 6.5 ast v.good #’s but like MCW a looter in a riot & Orlando & Milwaukee have Both been SO bad for So long you tend to disregard the good stats & look at other factors & Payton is a terrible shooter – 42% FG% & 26% 3pt%….

So that’s a synopsis of all 3… 

 I felt like Celtics GM Danny Aignes made a huge mistake acquiring Isaiah Thomas in the 2nd half of the Season just to make a playoff push. Thomas, the #60 overall pick in the 2011NBA Draft, is an excellent scorer 15.6 points, 4.4 assists, 44% FG% & 37% 3pt%… However, Thomas at 5’9” 185 lbs is a huge defensive liabiliy. In addition, has played for Four teams in Only Four seasons. And the Celtics misguided & foolish attempt to make the playoffs in 2015 by bringing in players like Thomas & Jae Crowder instead of acquiring more draft picks & continuing to lose which would have allowed their prospects to develop w/ more playing time & gaurenteed a MUCH higher Draft pick in the 2015 Draft. Playing Thomas stunted Smart’s growth & dented his confidence…. Boston further Ucked w/ Smart’s head by drafting 6’1 pg Rozier w/ the #16 pick… Now before anyone hurls criticism at me, I’m NOT crticizing Boston’s decision to bring in a couple average NBA players like Thomas & Crowder if that’s the duirection the team decided to go in. But clearly they are Not sure what they want to do b/c it was WELL publicized that Aigne offered the Phila Sixers ALL SIX 1st round picks Boston had acquired in 2015 & 2015 AND Smart, James Young & two other prospects in exchange for Nerlens Noel & the Sixers # 3 Pick (& remember this was Before the Draft & anyon knew that Jahlil Okafor would fall to # 3)…. Had Philly agreed to tghat trade – & I’m still trying to figure out why they did Not b/c all I have heard for two years is that Sixers GM Sam Hinkie cares about nothing but acquiring "assets" (picks, prospects & future considerations) – Aigne would have been considered a Genius but since he failed, Smart’s confidence to another hit.. And that’s my ctiticism. Had they stuck to their plan, Boston could have acquired WCS or Winslow or Myles Turner w/ a top 8 pick had they just stayed on course…. They could have even grabbed Both Sam Dekker & Frank Kaminsky which Boston would have love to go w/ Marcus Smart & James Young….

Still, I put Marcus Smart ahead of the other two as far as ceiling… I realize that right now Smart is prob third when gong by stats & the national media which constantly pointed out how bad MCW was for 18 months in Phila & then suddenly decided they luv him in Milwaukee may seem better… But MCW has hit his plateau – he is what he is & that is why he was drafted at #11 by Phila in 2013 in a Very weak draft… I dont think Smart is a future star but he is a bull dog on defense w/ real leadership potential, he’s got a big body… Whereas Payton & MCW are both decent players who will Never shoot even close to 45% & Niether can defend "on ball"… Sorry about the long post, I really enjoyed reading all of your posts… Great job!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[T Rex]

 Smart’s confidence is the last thing anybody should be worried about. And rather than stunt Smart/young guys’ development, the playoff run sped all of their development up. They learned how to win, how to close out close games, how to streamline their games, cut down on bad habits, bad shots, etc.

The Celtics won just about every single must win game down the stretch, and it was huge for everybody’s confidence. And Smart was on the floor in the 4th quarter of all those games, making big shots, clutch passes, and locking down the best guards on playoff contenders like the Heat, Pacers, Hornets, and Nets.

Payton and MCW can put up all the empty stats they want. It doesn’t mean they’re developing more, or learning how to actually win. All the empty stats in the world won’t teach you how to win.

By the time crap teams like the Magic, Sixers, and Pistons are actually ready to be good, they’ll still need at least one year of playoff experience before they are ready to make any kind of playoff run.

And the Celtics now already have that playoff experience, and they already know how to close out a regular season/playoff push by ekking out close games. Again, and again, and again.

I’ll take whatever development comes from finishing 24-12 down the stretch, and going toe-to-toe with LeBron in the playoffs, vs putting up empty stats in empty minutes in empty games, followed by empty rookie awards.

Winning is the most underrated thing in basketball right now, and it’s a disgrace.

The only rookie who impacted winning more than Smart was Mirotic for the Bulls.

By the end of the season, Smart’s shot selection had improved greatly, because he had to check his bad habits to win games. And that’s huge for his development, way more valuable than all the little bad habits that add up while putting up empty stats in empty games.

 

 

 

[T Rex]

 Smart’s confidence is the last thing anybody should be worried about. And rather than stunt Smart/young guys’ development, the playoff run sped all of their development up. They learned how to win, how to close out close games, how to streamline their games, cut down on bad habits, bad shots, etc.

The Celtics won just about every single must win game down the stretch, and it was huge for everybody’s confidence. And Smart was on the floor in the 4th quarter of all those games, making big shots, clutch passes, and locking down the best guards on playoff contenders like the Heat, Pacers, Hornets, and Nets.

Payton and MCW can put up all the empty stats they want. It doesn’t mean they’re developing more, or learning how to actually win. All the empty stats in the world won’t teach you how to win.

By the time crap teams like the Magic, Sixers, and Pistons are actually ready to be good, they’ll still need at least one year of playoff experience before they are ready to make any kind of playoff run.

And the Celtics now already have that playoff experience, and they already know how to close out a regular season/playoff push by ekking out close games. Again, and again, and again.

I’ll take whatever development comes from finishing 24-12 down the stretch, and going toe-to-toe with LeBron in the playoffs, vs putting up empty stats in empty minutes in empty games, followed by empty rookie awards.

Winning is the most underrated thing in basketball right now, and it’s a disgrace.

The only rookie who impacted winning more than Smart was Mirotic for the Bulls.

By the end of the season, Smart’s shot selection had improved greatly, because he had to check his bad habits to win games. And that’s huge for his development, way more valuable than all the little bad habits that add up while putting up empty stats in empty games.

 

 

 

[ryan3215Participant]

 1. Elfrid Payton – He posted consecutuive triple doubles as a rookie joining; Jason Kidd, Antonie Walker, David Robinson, and Magic Johnson. You can talk all you want about empty stats on bad teams but I too me this is extremely impressive. He has elite quickness, passing abilities, and defense. He really is a jumpshot away from being a superstar. I like what Orlando is doing, even though they have been losing games, id take high lottery picks over being a treadmil team. Boston made the playoffs but id still take Mario Hezonja over Rozier and Hunter. They got swept in the playoffs and I dont feel like that is vauable experience. 

 

2. Marcus Smart – He had an up and down rookie season due to injuruies. I feel like he has just as much as potential as Payton but just hasnt shown enough to put me ahead of him. He looked better in summer league but he still has bad shot selection. Most of his shots are off catch and shoot 3pts. He isnt a point guard and lacks a true positon. This is the reason the Celtics had to play Even Turner at point most of the season even when Smart was on the floor. He seems to be a 2 guard but undersized.

3. MCW – I place him below these two mainly because I think he has reached his ceiling. He is 2 years older than both and I dont see him getting any better. Hes a solid pg but just lacks the defense these two above posesss.

 

 

 

 

 

[ryan3215Participant]

 1. Elfrid Payton – He posted consecutuive triple doubles as a rookie joining; Jason Kidd, Antonie Walker, David Robinson, and Magic Johnson. You can talk all you want about empty stats on bad teams but I too me this is extremely impressive. He has elite quickness, passing abilities, and defense. He really is a jumpshot away from being a superstar. I like what Orlando is doing, even though they have been losing games, id take high lottery picks over being a treadmil team. Boston made the playoffs but id still take Mario Hezonja over Rozier and Hunter. They got swept in the playoffs and I dont feel like that is vauable experience. 

 

2. Marcus Smart – He had an up and down rookie season due to injuruies. I feel like he has just as much as potential as Payton but just hasnt shown enough to put me ahead of him. He looked better in summer league but he still has bad shot selection. Most of his shots are off catch and shoot 3pts. He isnt a point guard and lacks a true positon. This is the reason the Celtics had to play Even Turner at point most of the season even when Smart was on the floor. He seems to be a 2 guard but undersized.

3. MCW – I place him below these two mainly because I think he has reached his ceiling. He is 2 years older than both and I dont see him getting any better. Hes a solid pg but just lacks the defense these two above posesss.

 

 

 

 

 

[Author]

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