[Jester87Participant]

In these days, with all the social media and the internet and all those things, it seems like everyone feels he’s entitled to be a smartass and write things though they don’t have any clue. I was a huge San Antonio fan all season long, I mean, not really a fan, I don’t root for anyone, but I liked them a lot and I always felt they were the best team in the league by leaps and bounds and they were huge favorite for the ring. But I’m starting to be disgusted with all those guys who probably haven’t seen more than 10 games this year and have to post their brilliant remarks basing on a small sample (a 5 game finals series). I’m tired of hearing the Spurs won because they’re unselfish and play like a team, while the Heat don’t and they just believe having better players it’s enough.

The Heat have definitely failed sharing the ball during those Finals, but that’s not because of their philosophy. Anyone who’s watched the Nba this season knows the Heat were one of the best passing teams in the league, they played unselfish and shared the ball. They weren’t able to do the same during the finals, but that’s not because they didn’t want to. It’s because some of their players were exausted, because their bench sucks, because some players played terribly (hi Mario Chalmers). But mostly, that’s unfair to San Antonio’s defense. They did a heck of a job to slow down Miami’s offensive machine. They have to be given credit for that.

The funniest thing is that some of these guys root for OKC or Chicago (with Derrick Rose), teams with an ISO heavy offensive system and little to no continuity in their offense. They are mostly LeBron haters who can’t even recognize the teams they root for are the ones that actually have the flaws they criticize Miami for. 

[RUDEBOY_Participant]

Amen…

 

[RUDEBOY_Participant]

Amen…

 

[tidhoParticipant]

I’d argue that being exhausted, your bench ‘sucking’, guys not showing up, etc., does not stop ball movement.  In fact, its a reason to move the ball even more.  Its the only way to make up for a lack of talent.

The Spurs defense was great, but Miami also made it easier on them than they should have.  Ball movement is much much harder to stop than AAU offenses.

[tidhoParticipant]

I’d argue that being exhausted, your bench ‘sucking’, guys not showing up, etc., does not stop ball movement.  In fact, its a reason to move the ball even more.  Its the only way to make up for a lack of talent.

The Spurs defense was great, but Miami also made it easier on them than they should have.  Ball movement is much much harder to stop than AAU offenses.

[Jester87Participant]

Nope, if you don’t move off the ball the ball doesn’t move too. Or you can move it, but it’s pointless ball movement, since defenders don’t have a lot of adjustements to make. And off ball movement takes a lot of energy. That’s one of the main reasons Pop plays his start so very few minutes and he’s been doing that for years, well before the got to the late stage of their careers. His motion offense is really tiring. Also the Heat play a more aggressive defensive style and it means running a lot more than most of the teams in the Nba do playing a more conservative defense.

As for the AAU it seems to be your catch phrase since you’re using it in basically any thread. It’s not funny, it means you haven’t seen the Heat play all season. I would’ve agreed in 2011, when they lost to the Mavs. Back then they were really awful, relying only on individual talent of their superstars (Wade still belonged to that category), with tons of isolations and little to no ball movement. They lost some of their ball movement this year in the finals because the Spurs did a great job against the pick and roll and clogging the lane, helping off Heat’s weakest shooters. It’s basically what they did last year too, but the Heat had more shooters last year and could make up for it with terrific breaks when LeBron played with four shooters around him (with Mike Miller as their nominal power forward).  But they’ve done an excellent job and they’ve been one of the best passing teams all season long and throughout the whole playoffs. So you’re just saying this because you’re happy the Heat lost and have to make fun of them.

And listen, to claim the Heat are bad and they suck as an offensive team, it means not recognizing how great of a job the Spurs did. No other team in the league was able to slow down the Heat’s offensive machine before San Antonio, not even the Pacers, even if they had the best defense in the league. Just saying the Heat play AAU basketball and lost because of that means you’re not acknowledging the greatness of the Spurs and this is the kind of thing that haters usually do.

[Jester87Participant]

Nope, if you don’t move off the ball the ball doesn’t move too. Or you can move it, but it’s pointless ball movement, since defenders don’t have a lot of adjustements to make. And off ball movement takes a lot of energy. That’s one of the main reasons Pop plays his start so very few minutes and he’s been doing that for years, well before the got to the late stage of their careers. His motion offense is really tiring. Also the Heat play a more aggressive defensive style and it means running a lot more than most of the teams in the Nba do playing a more conservative defense.

As for the AAU it seems to be your catch phrase since you’re using it in basically any thread. It’s not funny, it means you haven’t seen the Heat play all season. I would’ve agreed in 2011, when they lost to the Mavs. Back then they were really awful, relying only on individual talent of their superstars (Wade still belonged to that category), with tons of isolations and little to no ball movement. They lost some of their ball movement this year in the finals because the Spurs did a great job against the pick and roll and clogging the lane, helping off Heat’s weakest shooters. It’s basically what they did last year too, but the Heat had more shooters last year and could make up for it with terrific breaks when LeBron played with four shooters around him (with Mike Miller as their nominal power forward).  But they’ve done an excellent job and they’ve been one of the best passing teams all season long and throughout the whole playoffs. So you’re just saying this because you’re happy the Heat lost and have to make fun of them.

And listen, to claim the Heat are bad and they suck as an offensive team, it means not recognizing how great of a job the Spurs did. No other team in the league was able to slow down the Heat’s offensive machine before San Antonio, not even the Pacers, even if they had the best defense in the league. Just saying the Heat play AAU basketball and lost because of that means you’re not acknowledging the greatness of the Spurs and this is the kind of thing that haters usually do.

[tidhoParticipant]

Now that you’ve defined what ‘haters’ do, maybe you can help me with something.  You’re suggesting I am guilty of "not recognizing how great a job the Spurs did" defensively when the thread you’re responding to literally contained the phrase "The Spurs defense was great".  What kind of poster comes up with logic like that?

As for how great the Heat passed all season long, I really don’t care.  Nothing I’ve written in any thread where I used the term ‘AAU’ suggests the Heat aren’t capable of being a better passing team than they showed in the finals.  What we’re talking about is the NBA Finals.

I do agree you have to move off the ball for ball movement to work, but that’s kind of the point.  When LeBron passed (in this series) how often did he cut to the basket?  More often than not he stood on the perimeter and waited for the ball to come back to him so that he could take his turn going one on one, or he took a deep jumper – that’s AAU offense.

[Jester87Participant]

When you say "the Heat made it easier" you’re clearly diminishing what San Antonio did.

And no, YOU are talking about the Finals, I created this thread specifically to underline how much it pisses me off reading people making generalizations about the Heat being a team with little ball movement and too many isolations as that’s their usual game style. I do know they struggled with that in the Finals, what I think is terribly wrong is judging a team basing on what they did in a single playoffs series, even if it’s the most important and pretending the 90 games they played before don’t matter. I hate people labeling this player selfish, or saying a team’s play stinks. Miami’s game stank in the Finals. They didn’t share the ball as they should. This doesn’t mean they’re evil, the team who always plays the wrong way and so on.

And they played the wrong way because of some of the adjustments San Antonio made and it’s not a coincidence Miami’s offense and ball movement started collapsing after game 3, when Popovich changed a lot of things, while it has been at least competent until then.

[Jester87Participant]

When you say "the Heat made it easier" you’re clearly diminishing what San Antonio did.

And no, YOU are talking about the Finals, I created this thread specifically to underline how much it pisses me off reading people making generalizations about the Heat being a team with little ball movement and too many isolations as that’s their usual game style. I do know they struggled with that in the Finals, what I think is terribly wrong is judging a team basing on what they did in a single playoffs series, even if it’s the most important and pretending the 90 games they played before don’t matter. I hate people labeling this player selfish, or saying a team’s play stinks. Miami’s game stank in the Finals. They didn’t share the ball as they should. This doesn’t mean they’re evil, the team who always plays the wrong way and so on.

And they played the wrong way because of some of the adjustments San Antonio made and it’s not a coincidence Miami’s offense and ball movement started collapsing after game 3, when Popovich changed a lot of things, while it has been at least competent until then.

[tidhoParticipant]

Now that you’ve defined what ‘haters’ do, maybe you can help me with something.  You’re suggesting I am guilty of "not recognizing how great a job the Spurs did" defensively when the thread you’re responding to literally contained the phrase "The Spurs defense was great".  What kind of poster comes up with logic like that?

As for how great the Heat passed all season long, I really don’t care.  Nothing I’ve written in any thread where I used the term ‘AAU’ suggests the Heat aren’t capable of being a better passing team than they showed in the finals.  What we’re talking about is the NBA Finals.

I do agree you have to move off the ball for ball movement to work, but that’s kind of the point.  When LeBron passed (in this series) how often did he cut to the basket?  More often than not he stood on the perimeter and waited for the ball to come back to him so that he could take his turn going one on one, or he took a deep jumper – that’s AAU offense.

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

I wonder if the Cramp Game just took a TON of energy out of the Heat’s old dudes.  I wanna say that their guys looked drained the whole series.  LeBron dominated for stretches the rest of the series, and looked great for the whole thing, but even he basically picked his spots.  He turned it on for a quarter at a time. 

I even thought that LeBron could have been the first player in Finals history to get a Finals MVP award when his team lost in 5 games.

Four straight Finals has only been done before by Bill Russell, Magic, and Bird.  Now, LeBron.  Magic and Bird ALSO went 2-2 in those four straight Finals appearances.  If LeBron and the Heat get back they would be the first team since the Russell Celtics to go to FIVE STRAIGHT Finals. 

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

I wonder if the Cramp Game just took a TON of energy out of the Heat’s old dudes.  I wanna say that their guys looked drained the whole series.  LeBron dominated for stretches the rest of the series, and looked great for the whole thing, but even he basically picked his spots.  He turned it on for a quarter at a time. 

I even thought that LeBron could have been the first player in Finals history to get a Finals MVP award when his team lost in 5 games.

Four straight Finals has only been done before by Bill Russell, Magic, and Bird.  Now, LeBron.  Magic and Bird ALSO went 2-2 in those four straight Finals appearances.  If LeBron and the Heat get back they would be the first team since the Russell Celtics to go to FIVE STRAIGHT Finals. 

[LindseyParticipant]

 Man the NBA as a league needed this finals. The whole league is so star-dominant, isolation based, and littered with team rotations that go "star player, and a bunch of one dimentional role players"

This is how basketball was meant to be played with any guy being able to light it up based on match-ups or hot shooting, and not being able to double, or trap, or focus on any singular offense becaue the machine i greater than the sum of its parts (parker can struggle, kahwi might not be aggressive, manu might be out of controle, duncan might be feeling slow, didnt matter, EVERYONE else could step up).

And its not like these guys are any better than the guys who get demoted to singular roles in these iso heavy systems. Pop just allows everyone to play to their strengths. They’ve went from a Defensive/post up team, to a fast breaking/3 point shooting squad seamlessly because Pop doesnt try and fit square pegs into round holes.

"Strive to be like water. It can fill any space it is given infinitely"

No team in the league could have beaten this Spurs unit and I hope the GMs/Coaches of the league take note and make the neccessary adjustments to their systems and organizations so maybe this league can become more enjoyable to watch at least. 

[LindseyParticipant]

 Man the NBA as a league needed this finals. The whole league is so star-dominant, isolation based, and littered with team rotations that go "star player, and a bunch of one dimentional role players"

This is how basketball was meant to be played with any guy being able to light it up based on match-ups or hot shooting, and not being able to double, or trap, or focus on any singular offense becaue the machine i greater than the sum of its parts (parker can struggle, kahwi might not be aggressive, manu might be out of controle, duncan might be feeling slow, didnt matter, EVERYONE else could step up).

And its not like these guys are any better than the guys who get demoted to singular roles in these iso heavy systems. Pop just allows everyone to play to their strengths. They’ve went from a Defensive/post up team, to a fast breaking/3 point shooting squad seamlessly because Pop doesnt try and fit square pegs into round holes.

"Strive to be like water. It can fill any space it is given infinitely"

No team in the league could have beaten this Spurs unit and I hope the GMs/Coaches of the league take note and make the neccessary adjustments to their systems and organizations so maybe this league can become more enjoyable to watch at least. 

[Jester87Participant]

Those are mostly stereotypes. I would’ve agreed if we were in the 90s or in the early 2000’s. But with the way the rules have changed, the new hybrid defenses coaches started to use (and Thibs perfected), teams relying heavily on isolations are fewer than what it used to be. Only OKC and Houston among top teams base their offense on isolations and don’t have an actual offensive system.

And while it’s true that the league is so star dominant, I blame the fans more than the coaches and the execs. Coaches, players, executives they all know having a good team is just as important as having a star player. The fans are the ones blaming only LeBron when the Heat lose, as if it wasn’t a team sport (and as if his teammates have done a great job to help him). The fans are the ones not understanding that points per game do not tell you how good a player is, or that sometimes a lineup is better with a player who fits well with the other than with a superstar whose skills doesn’t mesh that well with his teammates’. And it’s not like it’s something new. The Nba has always been start dominant, and it only got worse with Jordan.

Also, this whole thing about the Heat being the evil, the star dominant team, is just a load of crap. I mean it’s partly true image wise, they’re kind of rockstars, but on the court as I’ve already said, they played unselfish ball in the last three years. Chris Bosh is like the poster boy for unselfishness. Some idiots have been all over LeBron for passing to Bosh on the final possession against the Pacers in game 5. They are a genuinely unselfish team. They lost because the Spurs were better, period. 

[Jester87Participant]

Those are mostly stereotypes. I would’ve agreed if we were in the 90s or in the early 2000’s. But with the way the rules have changed, the new hybrid defenses coaches started to use (and Thibs perfected), teams relying heavily on isolations are fewer than what it used to be. Only OKC and Houston among top teams base their offense on isolations and don’t have an actual offensive system.

And while it’s true that the league is so star dominant, I blame the fans more than the coaches and the execs. Coaches, players, executives they all know having a good team is just as important as having a star player. The fans are the ones blaming only LeBron when the Heat lose, as if it wasn’t a team sport (and as if his teammates have done a great job to help him). The fans are the ones not understanding that points per game do not tell you how good a player is, or that sometimes a lineup is better with a player who fits well with the other than with a superstar whose skills doesn’t mesh that well with his teammates’. And it’s not like it’s something new. The Nba has always been start dominant, and it only got worse with Jordan.

Also, this whole thing about the Heat being the evil, the star dominant team, is just a load of crap. I mean it’s partly true image wise, they’re kind of rockstars, but on the court as I’ve already said, they played unselfish ball in the last three years. Chris Bosh is like the poster boy for unselfishness. Some idiots have been all over LeBron for passing to Bosh on the final possession against the Pacers in game 5. They are a genuinely unselfish team. They lost because the Spurs were better, period. 

[tidhoParticipant]

Couldn’t agree more Lindsey. 

The whole concept of ‘Big Three’ is a perfect example.  When you have a Big Three it means you have a lesser nine (or ten).  The media kept using the term to describe Duncan, Manu, and Parker but they completely missed the point.  The Spurs won exactly because they don’t have a Big Three, they have a team.

 

[tidhoParticipant]

Couldn’t agree more Lindsey. 

The whole concept of ‘Big Three’ is a perfect example.  When you have a Big Three it means you have a lesser nine (or ten).  The media kept using the term to describe Duncan, Manu, and Parker but they completely missed the point.  The Spurs won exactly because they don’t have a Big Three, they have a team.

 

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

The Heat are not a selfish team.  They played four straight 100+ game seasons in a row, and that has a way of aging a team. It is delicate balance of keeping together what works and adding new blood. When you think back on the Lakers of the 1980s and Bulls of the 1990s, it was really only Magic/Kareem/Cooper for the entire run (and Kareem wasn’t there in1991) and Jordan and Pippen for all six runs. We saw the Heat’s supporting cast fall off a ledge. It has nothing to do with selfishness. They had good, open looks. They missed them more than San Antonio, and way too much the past couple games. It became such a stark contrast in part because of what the Spurs did, but also because the Heat devolved into what they were in 2011 against the Mavs.  

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

The Heat are not a selfish team.  They played four straight 100+ game seasons in a row, and that has a way of aging a team. It is delicate balance of keeping together what works and adding new blood. When you think back on the Lakers of the 1980s and Bulls of the 1990s, it was really only Magic/Kareem/Cooper for the entire run (and Kareem wasn’t there in1991) and Jordan and Pippen for all six runs. We saw the Heat’s supporting cast fall off a ledge. It has nothing to do with selfishness. They had good, open looks. They missed them more than San Antonio, and way too much the past couple games. It became such a stark contrast in part because of what the Spurs did, but also because the Heat devolved into what they were in 2011 against the Mavs.  

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