[markfitz14Participant]

Noel did not play again in last nights preseason game. It was reported he told the team he hurt his groin. I think he is pulling some stuff and bascially refusing to play. Or demanding a trade behind closed doors. Seems like he is only hurting his own trade value though not playing. Especially since Oak is still injured. He would be getting a good look at Center. But I guess he just doesn’t want to risk injury. 76ers might just have to get rid of him for being a downer in the locker room? They don’t need any negative attitudes in that young locker room. 

[KingPapasParticipant]

Why should he care about his stock? He is a young player, he only wants the opportunity to play. I wouldn’t care if it was on a winning/losing team. He is early in his career.

[markfitz14Participant]

 Well becuase if the 76ers refuse to trade him and keep him into next season. He could perform really good now with Oak sitting out raising his stock for offers next off season when he is a RFA. You never know what the 76ers will do they might not trade him. And if he doesn’t play much minutes in the season his stock could plummett and he might not get very many good offers next off season. The 76ers could play the long game and try to sign him below max next year hence giving him more value in the trade market after that too. So yeah he should care about his stock becuase he wants to get paid next year. Its a contract Year, this is when you want to go beast mode. Or even if the 76ers kept him and he performed really well until Oak got back and then still well off the bench the 76ers may have to match a max offer. 

[binetParticipant]

 I understand your point but it does not make sense for him not to play or to fake an injury while Okafor is out and Embiid still on minutes restrictions. All Noel said was legit and about his desire to play primarily, so I doubt he became stupid enough to do something like that overnight. He probably just literally injured his groin.

Okafor ‘s injury is more suspect since Jahlil has been saying he is back and healthy since day 1 of training camp while being on the injured list, managed during practices and held out of games. The team policy here ressembles a lot to what a team would do with an asset ready to be traded, whose injury is a big concern and they do not want him to get hurt before getting traded.

Anyway, Ben Simmons’s injury probably delayed any trade to about his date of return in early January.

 

 

 

[ashock34Participant]

 Im hearing that Noel and his agent refuse to move off their choice of Boston being the team they would like to be traded to. Colangelo wont do the deal if he feels it is not in best interest of team. The leverage that Noel’s side has is their willingness to sign off on an extension so that new team can be guaranteed that Noel wont bolt. Noel will discuss this with C’s and no one else

[Ebown5Participant]

Where are you hearing this?

I am following this situation really closely, and I haven’t seen anything to that effect. I’m sure Noel would love to play for the Celtics, but where did you hear that he is refusing to sign extensions elsewhere?

 

  

[ashock34Participant]

 A sports agent in Philly area. He reps a Suns and Kings player. Thats the buzz. Ultimately Noel will go elsewhere despite his preferences as team controls his fate. Houston looking like a real possibility. Noels time off court has allowed Rashaun Holmes time to shine and brass impressed. Rumor out there has Sixers interested in Archie Goodwin and Brandon Knight with Goodwin fitting into long range plans.

[Magic JordanParticipant]

 Well the writing is on the wall for both Noel and Okafor.  Sure, Embiid isn’t ready to play starter minutes yet… but as soon as he is both of these guys take a back seat.  Neither one of them can play the 4, and neither one of them can justify starting over Embiid but both are too good to be relegated as back ups.  Thus, drafting very talented players who play the same position is finally biting them in the ass as everybody not in Philly knew it would.

If Philly is holding out for what it considers fair value return they are going to be disappointed and only make this worse.  They need to flip them both as soon as possible.  Some average wing help and a decent back up center should be enough for them.  The longer they hold out, the worse their return will be.

 

[Ebown5Participant]

 It isn’t true that the philosophy of drafting the best player available, without regard to position, has been shown to be the wrong path.

Afterall, that is EXACTLY the reason why we drafted Embiid, and if he stays healthy, he will be the franchise.

The asset acquisition phase of the process was a resounding success because it resulted in two potential franchise players in Embiid, and Simmons, as well as numerous other high value assets such as Noel, Okafor, 2 likely top 8 picks next draft, and an unprotected 2019 pick from the Kings which is the year after Cousins needs to be resigned.

Noel definitely has shown that he can’t play the 4, and we may have to trade him for peanuts this year. If that comes to pass then you can count that as a negative in the ledger, but it is way outweighed by all of the other assets.

Okafor has not proven that he can’t play the 4 yet, and the most likely reason that he will probably eventually need to be traded is because he is behind better players at both the 4 and the 5. We control him for 3 more years though so that question will be unresolved for a while.

Neither Okafor, nor Noel are really consequential in terms of where we are going now that we have Simmons and Embiid. They are both nice players, but if they are both lost for nothing, we are still in great shape.

Afterall, the 2017 draft looks like it may have 5 players that could be as good as Ingram or better, and we could end up with 2 of them. Plus they are mostly guards or wings, which is what we really need. We were unlucky the last two years with the Lakers pick staying in the protected range. With a little luck this year we might get a player better than who we could have gotten at 6 in 2015 or at 4 in 2016.

I would much rather have Smith, Fultz, Jackson, or Tatum than Mudiay or Dunn. Even if that gamble doesn’t go in our favor, I would surely prefer ANYONE that we get with the Lakers pick in the top 10 over MCW, which is who we traded for that pick.

So obviously we aren’t going to win every single battle, but things are looking good in terms of winning the war, which would mean building a real contending team.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hype Machine]

 Remember when I predicted that Nerlens Noel and Jahlil Okafor wouldnt play a minute of preseason.

And Philly fans threatened to bash me.

This is why no one likes Philly fans. You try to tell them how it is….but they just dont listen.

They all have this Sam Hinkie like smugness that gives them thia idea that theyre outsmarting everyone..despite being constantly rooted at the bottom and  theres an absolute tyre fire going on around them.

[Magic JordanParticipant]

 Thanks my Aussie mate.  I always look for a way to describe them at that sums it up perfectly.  They think they are outsmarting everybody. 

[CDPHParticipant]

Noel played 17 minutes in the 76ers first preseason game.

Then he suffered his (fake) injury.

[Ebown5Participant]

 How am I being Smug?

He claimed that the BPA regardless of position theory has been invalidated by the current log jam, and I pointed out that it was following that philospophy that got us our best player.

Further, we are set up better than any young team in the league for the future with the possible exception of Minnesota.

Hinkie didn’t succeed because he was smarter than everyone else, although he is very smart. He followed the obvious path for going from zero to one stars that every team should follow given the rules, and how difficult it is to find stars. 

In just over 3 years, he dug us out of a huge whole, while getting two potential stars, and numerous other assets that have yet to bear fruit.

We tread water for a decade before this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Magic JordanParticipant]

 Who claimed that the BPA regardless of position theory had been invalidated?  Nobody that I can see… but now that you mention it, it probably has.

Embiid was the 2nd center you chose, not the last… so yes there was a mistake after Embiid was chosen.  It got you your best player and it could have ended there… then came the Okafor mistake.

Drafting 3 players in the lottery that play the same position has to be pretty much unprecedented.  The only other example I can think of is wait for it…

KAAAHHHHNNNN!  That for sure didn’t work out.  Not in the sense that the players flopped or didn’t pan out, even though that’s what happened.  More so in the fact that better players were passed on.  Better players who fit needs.  Exactly like what happened with Philly.

I understand that the asset accumulation was top notch.  But to argue that taking 3 centers in a row wasn’t a mistake is pretty naive.  How good would Devin Booker look in that line up right now instead of Okafor?  I’ll tell you how…. scary good. And you’d still have a slightly happier Noel to flip with no clear log jam at center because OKAFOR IS NOT A FOUR!  He will never find success at the 4.

It doesn’t matter now but it’s ridiculous how sensitive Philly fans get when you talk about the obvious mistake of picking Okafor.  The first 2 are justified.  Okafor was an absolute fail of a pick that just so happened to diminish the trade value of two players at once.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ebown5Participant]

"Thus, drafting very talented players who play the same position is finally biting them in the ass as everybody not in Philly knew it would."

You think that the Sixers should have taken Booker at 3? Is that what you advocated at the time?

 

 

 

[Magic JordanParticipant]

 I don’t advocate anything for Philly.  At the time I assumed they would get D Russell because I thought for sure the Lakers were taking Okafor.

Yes Okafor had a lot of fans, but he also had a lot of non fans.  So labeling him the BPA is kind of arbitrary.  And it’s not like he was significantly better than the players who followed.  The Lakers and the Wolves saw that, the 76ers did not.  Even though out of any team in the top 5… the 76ers needed him the least.

I understand that hindsight is 20 20 so it’s easy for me to now say that they should have taken Booker when I wouldn’t have said that around draft time.  BUT one thing I certainly said around draft time was it was completely stupid to take Okafor who was literally the last thing they needed at the time.  I also said it would bite them in the ass and and sure enough it is whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

In summation, drafting 3 players of the same position, 3 years in a row is a stupid idea.  Especially when you factor in BPA is arbitrary because nobody can predict development.

 

 

 

[Ebown5Participant]

Obviously BPA is subjective, and arbitrary. It isn’t like players have qualitative values stamped on their foreheads that say who is better. BPA means you take who you think is the best player, and that is always how it is applied. You said that taking a center three years in a row was a mistake even though you concede that BPA is the best philosophy. You can’t only believe it when it works out.

Even though I would have taken Okafor and Porzingis both over Russell, you can’t punish the Sixers for not getting Russell considering that he was off the board. In a vaccuum I still like Okafor better than Russell, but now that we know that they following year we got Simmons, I would rather have Russell because he is a perfect guard to pair with Simmons. I didn’t like Russell very much because he isn’t a point guard, and I didn’t want him running my team. With Simmons running the team though guards like Russell become perfect because you get their playmaking and shooting ability without the inefficiencies of a non point guard playing that role. 

Embiid had his set back at this time and Okafor was considered the Embiid insurance, and people have to remember the balls that it took to take Embiid at 3 the year before. It was a pure BPA pick despite the fact that we had Noel already.

It is completely revistionist history to suggest that anyone would have taken Porzingis over Okafor in June of 2015 since Porzingis was a huge bust risk, and Okafor had a high ceiling and low bisk risk. It would have been highly reckless to take Porzingis over Okafor at 3. The Knicks were devastated to lose out on Okafor at the time. Today I would trade Okafor for Porzingis, but in June of 2015 I wouldn’t.

It would have been akin to the Lakers taking Bender this past year over Ingram. If Bender ends up as the better player it doesn’t make Ingram the wrong pick. You only know what you know at the time, and decisions have to be evaluated in the context of what was known at the time of the choice.

Should we have taken Ingram this year over Simmons because he fit our roster better? Of course not.

Ultimately, following the philosophy led us to where we are today, which is a great place to be. We still have to dela with Noel, and Okafor, and probably they will both have to be traded evantually, but Simmons, and Embiid were worth the whole tank, and we still have tremendous draft assets coming to us in the next few years.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

[OhCanada-Participant]

 To be fair Hype did predict that. I always loved Noel at Tilton in highschool super versatile defender with top flight athletisism that still banged with the big boys.  His professional career has turned me off due to what I perceive to be immaturity and a sense of entitlement.  Yet we are veiwing from outside of the organizations circle and out perspective maybe a little skewed. 

In this particular situation you gotta feel for Noel a bit.  Alot of fingers should be pointed at the 76ers process which had no regard for a professional approach to developing confidence in their prospects.  He was drafted as the 76ers building block at C as a start of the new era in Philly.  Next year they draft JoJo and he gets the same treatment.  Then they pick another C in Oak and expect morale to be high for these young men (Nerlens and Jahlil) when the world has clearly been promised to Embiid. All the trade rumours and them obviously being shopped along with the Micheal Carter Williams trade after winning ROY!  Thats gotta take a toll on a 20 year old. 

These kids want to and have the talent to be top talent Centers with endorsement offers from Adidas,  Nike,  UnderAmour etc. and max contracts not sitting on the bench having thier potential wither away like rotting fire wood. 

Philly seems to want to have him play a 15-mpg role so they can match any offer given to him in the offseason and keep him in a limited role as a stellar backup C. 

Im not mad at this thread.  To be perfectly honest I question every 76ers injury including Simmons.  Just seems fishy to me. 

 

 

[The Scare Crow RisesParticipant]

 If he claimed that Noel and Okafor wouldn’t play a minute of preseason THAN he’s dead wrong, Noel played against Boston in the 1st preseason game and Okafor isn’t playing any PS ball because he’s still not 100% regardless of what he says on Social Media

Hype claimed that Noel and Okafor would both be tradedbefore the season started

In a few days he’ll be proven 100% wrong because neither guy will be traded in the next 10-15 days…

Once again, it feels like a damn Trump rally any time this guy opens his mouth, absolutely no fact checking and morons eat what he says up…

You are a moron if you believe anything that comes of Hype J Trump’s mouth, he’s a Aussie Homer and the worst kind, I’m waiting for him to make a post claiming Thon Maker is better than Karl Anthony Towns right now Once the season starts, just wait for Maker’s first big game…It’s coming…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hype Machine]

I know theres a scary clown phenomenon in America right now, but the real circus is in Philly….and seemingly on this draft forum. 

Noel isnt even training with the team due to a fake injury. And youre out here trying to call me out on 17 of the most awkward, ill advised minutes we will see from any player all season. 

 

Wake up and smell the roses. You wont find a more accurate analysis of the 76ers situation anywhere else on the internet. 

 

Speaking of fake injuries…Okafors 6 weeks on the sidelines has sneakily turned into 32 weeks. Hes being kept on ice because Philly is letting pride get in the way of common sense and wont budge on their unrealistic asking price.

So…after all is said and done…its pretty much a wasted year for Philly again. 

 

No Simmons, No Noel, No Okafor, No Backcourt, No wins.

 

Just 12 minutes a game from Joel Embiid to look forward to. 

And on back-to-backs, Nic Stauskas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ebown5Participant]

You really don’t know what you are talking about.

Brett Brown said the other day that Embiid will be playing 20-24 minutes by opening day, and while rusty, he has looked better and better each game, and is going to be the talk of the league this year. Yeah, he won’t play on back to backs, but he will be the best rookie in the league.

You watch what the general consensus is about Embiid by Christmas if he continues to stay healthy.

Simmons will be back in January some time. 

Noel is completely irrelevant. He is arguably our 5th best player, and is not consequential to the growth of this team. We will probably have to make a bad trade with him this year, and as I said before, that will be a negative thing on the ledger. 

Okafor is under control for 3 more years, and will have every opportunity to succeed here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

[Magic JordanParticipant]

 I don’t think anybody here is doubting Embiid’s ability.  Everybody knows his talent.  I myself am on record, on this very draft site stating multiple times that if health was never a concern… he would have been my favorite prospect since KD.  More than Towns, more than Anthony Davis… anybody.  He’s that good and if he’s healthy I anticipate him being that good eventually.

The discussion is really about Okafor and Noel.  And all of the trying in the world won’t convince anybody outside of Philly that Okafor and Embiid can play together.  I get that his name is Okafor… but it’s not OkaFOUR… HAHA.. get it??!  Joking aside they cannot play together. And Okafor will not be happy being a back up.  The sooner they move on from Okafor the better.  I think that’s all anyone is trying to say.  That there is a self inflicted log jam and it is only going to get worse, diminishing Noel and Okafors trade value the longer it goes on.

 

[Ebown5Participant]

What you must concede at this point is that it has NOT been proven yet that they can’t play together. This year that question will be answered.

Could Okafor play 12-15 minutes at center, and 12-15 at Power Forward? Maybe.

If not, then we trade him. It is as simple as that really. Having to trade someone is not a problem.

Generally, the biggest reason that I am not optimistic that it can work long term is not that I don’t think Okafor and Embiid can play together. It is because I don’t think that Okafor is the best type of player to surround Simmons AND Embiid. 

The core of the Sixers rebuild are Simmons and Embiid, and the other 3 players on the floor should be ones that compliment them the best. If Simmons didn’t exist, I would be much more optimistic about Okafor sticking long term.

 

 

 

 

 

  

[binetParticipant]

 Okafor could not play well with Noel. While Embiid plays differently than Noel, on paper the association Okafor-Embiid seems way worse on D, even if Embiid showed flashes on that end, he is less versatile and reactive than Noel who is elite and had the ability to possibly compensate Okafor. On offense both Okafor and Embiid have crazy high usage rate and attack primarily in the paint. Noel asks less for the ball, what arguably should let him complement Okafor way better than Embiid. 

There is another major reason why Okafor should not play alongside Embiid and that’s Saric. The guy already seems like the perfect 4 to associate with Embiid and is very good and way more versatile. With Ben Simmons also playing the 4 and probably starting at that position that leaves no minutes to try Okafor. Yes, they could do it while Simmons is injured but that does not seem best either. Embiid needs to acclimate to playing with a point forward 4 or versatile stretch 4, not alongside another 5.

It’s very possible Simmons ends up developped as a 3 or even 1 to play him and Saric together as Brett Brown suggested multiples times, because you need to play with the best team possible and right now both rookie forwards are among the team’s best 3 to 4 players. But if that’s the case then Robert Covington will play minutes at the 4 rather than Okafor very possibly. He totally can develop into an interesting stretch 4.

The thing is Embiid is probably going to play limited minutes for a long time thus keeping one of Okafor and Noel around seems legit, to play these 20+ other minutes and be an insurance policy against Embiid future injuries.

The player getting traded will probably largely depend on who has the more value at the time of the trade, which should be midseason when Ben Simmons is coming back and some teams are ready to rebuild, tank, and trade some key assets and stars. The 76ers probably won’t get and are not interested in mid to low level talent they can get thrugh the draft with their pick or the Lakers’ or by developping guys like Luwawu or Korkmaz. That also means Noel or Okafor should be part of a package including some other young assets and draft picks for a star player. Only so many guys fits this profile or being worth a Jahlil + high draft pick(s) +other assets and I am not sure how many will be available by then. I think Philadelphia is targeting John Wall or Kemba Walker. Both are in situations where it’s very possible their team does not start the season well and decide to tank, rebuild, trade… Both are proven starting PGs with a decent age. It’s also very possible they do not become available, but if they do, Philadelphia should have one of the best packages to offer. Otherwise, the best for them will be to trade them for draft picks, what they should have done with Jahlil on draft night.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ebown5Participant]

I agree with most of your post outside of the first paragraph.

You can’t extrapolate how Okafor and Embiid will work by how Okafor and Noel worked.

Last year, when Okafor and Noel played together it was Noel that played the 4 most of the time, and he proved that he couldn’t do it. Of course he has probably unprecedented foot and hand speed for a guy his size, but his rim protection, and rebounding suffered greatly, and he was a total zero on offense.

Also, I don’t think that you should assume that Noel is a better defender than Embiid. I consider defensive rebounding to be a part of defense, and Embiid is truly elite in that area, whereas Noel is mediocre at best. Embiid is an equal rim protector as well.

Okafor had a high usage rate last year because he was the only scorer on the team. Embiid has a high usage rate now being the only scorer on the floor(while Okafor is out). They won’t have the same usage rates if they are both on the floor together.

I fully admit that it may not work with them both playing at the same time, but let’s let them have the year to prove it one way or the other.

 

 

 

 

  

[Magic JordanParticipant]

 Yes, give them the year to completely destroy any trade value Okafor has by further cementing the log jam.  Okafor was the worst defensive 5 in the league last year.  And you still aren’t convinced that he can’t play 4?  Sure…

[holefillers1Participant]

It only takes two teams interested in Okafor to establish value…He will always have value

[markfitz14Participant]

Thank forgot about that. He should have been healty a long time ago. Unless he has had some set backs, which I havent heard about either. I think they are just protectiing them for a trade. Or protecting themselves  

[NBAjunkie81Participant]

 been through what they went through recently – The Lakers have been tanking for several years but at least they had something to watch. TJ McConnel & Isaiah Cannan were the starting Back Court last year – I challenge anyone to name a Worse starting back court in NBA History – 

As far as Noel – he mouthed off b/c Embiid has been killing him in practice & he realized he’s not getting any minutes Any time soon…… Noel is No Way a starter in the NBA – not even close.

 I’m sure the 76ers are hoping someone will get injured & the Sixers will trade him Anywhere who Wants him……. But if I was the Sixers I would GIVE him to anyone in exchange for a veteran starting PG – they are planning to start TJ McConnel & if they do they will be 2 – 30 before Simmons is back & at that point they probably shut him down b/c the Entire team will quit again like they did last year

 

 

[Ebown5Participant]

Our guards stink, and that is a fact, but I would argue that Sergio rodriguez should be the starter for the time being.

This team is signifficantly better than last year’s team. Last year we had no veterans, and this year we have a number of mediocre veterans, plus a dominant center. I’m not saying that we are going to win 40 games, but we will probably win at least 25, and that is a big difference from the 10 we won last year.

 

 

  

[markfitz14Participant]

For the sake of the team this year and their pshyce. For the competiitve spirit of the team. Just deal him and get something to work with this year. A couple veterans would go a long way. I hope the team makes something happen soon. 

[HitsterParticipant]

Noel is actually eligible for an extension now, Philly should give him a low ball offer and hope he bites and then can really look to trade him.

I’m not sure about adding veterans for the sake of it, the team can grow organically as the younger players gain experience, the Thunder didn’t add a load of vets in the KD era after they had done their major draft rebuilding although they did have a locker room leader in Nick Collinson in place.

The 76ers have Brand but I’m not sure if he is a natural leader type guy, if they really did want someone in then Tayshaun Prince or Steve Blake would seem the sort of guys to look at.

[OhCanada-Participant]

 Hype chill! You already gottem dont hittem while there down! 

LMAO at Okafors injury being 6-weeks to 32-weeks. Sooo true. 

To touch up on the Okafor/Noel duo the defence wasnt really the issue. The whole teams defence stank and Okafor didnt really play defence at all.  So when nobody on the team but Noel can gaurd anybody or is expected to/held accountable its hard to point fingers.

  The offence was an even bigger issue. Both players sense of spacing are terrible. Noels hands are bricks abd Okafor is and always has been a black hole offensively. He was constantly getting double teams and the 76ers still couldnt figure it out. 

 

 

 

 

[Andv1 WaitingParticipant]

You  have to just do the following: Keep the one that plays the best with Dario Saric and can play small spurts with Joel E. This should be figured out by the midseason trade deadline so just hold tight until then.

But this is just my opnion: Noel type players are good role players that are easy to find-see most drafts now and Okafors are good 6th men/sometimes starter type players with actual post moves(which aren’t so common now)..

So if you are building a team Okafor would be a nice piece to anchor your bench offense(if he could play some defense would be nice though),all he will need is some shooters to kick the ball out to and hey presto the bench unit gives you 30-50 points a game vs Noel who will be an energy guy nothing more as he doesn’t anchor their defense and he doesn’t provide much offense by himself.

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ashock34Participant]

 Look no one could have predicted Booker’s rise to stardom. Anyone saying Sixers should have taken him are just being an armchair QB. Sixers made their mistake in not taking Porzingas as part of their BPA plan. I am told that Hinkie was over ruled on his plan to draft KP by owner Josh Harris. He wanted more of a sure thing and ownership was put off by the agent not wishing to meet with Hinkie. What would Embiid and KP look like on the floor?

[Ebown5Participant]

 Defending the 4 is easier than defending the 5. If you are defending the 5 you are expected to anchor the defense and protect the rim.

Plus the question isn’t whether or not Okafor is good at defending the 4. The question is whether or not his defensive deficiencies are outweighed by his offensive proficiencies. 

‘It makes no sense to say that he can’t do it before he has tried doing it, and further, even if he can’t do it, it doesn’t mean that the Sixers lose somehow. He is under contract for 3 more years, and if we need to we will simply trade him.

Also, let’s live in a world for a second where Okafor and Noel just vanish into thin air. Does that fundamentally alter the path of this franchise? No.

They are both house money. The difference makers are Embiid, and Simmons.

We have two of the top 5 young talents in the league, and they will determine how far we go.

w

 

 

[Author]

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