[Aran SmithKeymaster]

http://nbadraft.net/nba-legacies-ranking-greats-all-time

Thoughts?   Agree / Disagree with the rankings?  Would love to get your feedback on this piece by Aaron Bollwinkel.

[r377Participant]

Joe Dumars may be on the mention list.

Finals MVP, a number of all-nba and defensive teams. He also won citizen and sportmenship awards for his play on/off the court (which is a huge achievement when you are a member of the badboys)

Executive – The pistons made 6 straight Eastern conference finals and one championship under Dumars. He signed billups and ben wallace for nearly nothing and made them all-stars. Then aquired Sheed and Rip Hamilton.

Yes he did draft Darko but also some great finds…

Okur (38th)

Prince (23rd)

Delfino (25th)

Maxiell (26th)

Affalo (27th)

Monroe (7th)

Drummond (8th)

Middleton (39th)

[llperez]

dummars really is only well represented for his playing career. His GM work is actually negative and drops him down. He did win a ring early as a gm, but I think he lucked into that more then anything. he has made very few sound decisions since. He had the opportunity to either rebuild or keep the team intact, and he half assed it by trading billups the teams best player to Denver for an old Iverson while at the same exact time resigning a breaking down Hamilton long term. Made no sense whatsoever, trade billups for Iverson which screams rebuild but then keep the lesser player in Hamilton for big bucks? He also had one summer where he saved money and had a chance to make a splash and he used it on Villanueva and ben Gordon. The pistons have not gotten better in about a decade now and are no where close to turning the corner.

 

[ChoppyParticipant]

 I really think you’re underestimating the job Dumars did in assembling the ’04 championship team. Nobody at the time thought he ‘won’ the Grant Hill trade for Wallace, yet in hindsight it was a master stroke. Also, he has been hamstrung in recent years by the death of Bill Davidson and the sale of the team where he could only make cost saving moves. 

As far as his draft choices go, his strike rate is pretty good. Yes he drafted Darko but as one of the other posters pointed out, there are many value picks, particularly in the second round. Too many people focus on Darko and Rodney White when discussing his draft picks. Name one GM that has never had a miss in the draft? Every single GM makes mistakes in drafting – it’s the nature of the beast. I think he’s being overlooked.

The one area he can rightly be criticised is in FA signings. But how much of that is actually his fault? How many FA’s are lining up to sign with Detroit? Gordon and Villanueva’s contracts were awful, but no one else was gonna sign with the pistons no matter how much cash they had. Josh Smith’s signing is still too early to tell.

[llperez]

he got ben Wallace and chucky atkins for grant hill and I think he did great on that considering hill was leaving regardless and getting Wallace was a heck of return that no one saw coming.

But the pistons could have easily lost the 04 ring and everyone would be saying, wow if he just drafted melo instead of darko maybe they win that one. But he did win it so the darko draft pick didn’t look worse then it already does which is terrible.

and he has basically done very little positive since the summer of 2003. I mean that’s 10 years and what has he done well? Drummond and Monroe and what else?

I also hold it against him for using a lottery pick on mateen cleaves. That was one guy that I full on called ahead of time was a bust before he was drafted. Lets see, cant shoot at all, slow, unathletic, average at everything. Yup, screams lotto pick. No idea how dumars thought he was an nba player.

[llperez]

he got ben Wallace and chucky atkins for grant hill and I think he did great on that considering hill was leaving regardless and getting Wallace was a heck of return that no one saw coming.

But the pistons could have easily lost the 04 ring and everyone would be saying, wow if he just drafted melo instead of darko maybe they win that one. But he did win it so the darko draft pick didn’t look worse then it already does which is terrible.

and he has basically done very little positive since the summer of 2003. I mean that’s 10 years and what has he done well? Drummond and Monroe and what else?

I also hold it against him for using a lottery pick on mateen cleaves. That was one guy that I full on called ahead of time was a bust before he was drafted. Lets see, cant shoot at all, slow, unathletic, average at everything. Yup, screams lotto pick. No idea how dumars thought he was an nba player.

[ChoppyParticipant]

 I really think you’re underestimating the job Dumars did in assembling the ’04 championship team. Nobody at the time thought he ‘won’ the Grant Hill trade for Wallace, yet in hindsight it was a master stroke. Also, he has been hamstrung in recent years by the death of Bill Davidson and the sale of the team where he could only make cost saving moves. 

As far as his draft choices go, his strike rate is pretty good. Yes he drafted Darko but as one of the other posters pointed out, there are many value picks, particularly in the second round. Too many people focus on Darko and Rodney White when discussing his draft picks. Name one GM that has never had a miss in the draft? Every single GM makes mistakes in drafting – it’s the nature of the beast. I think he’s being overlooked.

The one area he can rightly be criticised is in FA signings. But how much of that is actually his fault? How many FA’s are lining up to sign with Detroit? Gordon and Villanueva’s contracts were awful, but no one else was gonna sign with the pistons no matter how much cash they had. Josh Smith’s signing is still too early to tell.

[llperez]

dummars really is only well represented for his playing career. His GM work is actually negative and drops him down. He did win a ring early as a gm, but I think he lucked into that more then anything. he has made very few sound decisions since. He had the opportunity to either rebuild or keep the team intact, and he half assed it by trading billups the teams best player to Denver for an old Iverson while at the same exact time resigning a breaking down Hamilton long term. Made no sense whatsoever, trade billups for Iverson which screams rebuild but then keep the lesser player in Hamilton for big bucks? He also had one summer where he saved money and had a chance to make a splash and he used it on Villanueva and ben Gordon. The pistons have not gotten better in about a decade now and are no where close to turning the corner.

 

[r377Participant]

Joe Dumars may be on the mention list.

Finals MVP, a number of all-nba and defensive teams. He also won citizen and sportmenship awards for his play on/off the court (which is a huge achievement when you are a member of the badboys)

Executive – The pistons made 6 straight Eastern conference finals and one championship under Dumars. He signed billups and ben wallace for nearly nothing and made them all-stars. Then aquired Sheed and Rip Hamilton.

Yes he did draft Darko but also some great finds…

Okur (38th)

Prince (23rd)

Delfino (25th)

Maxiell (26th)

Affalo (27th)

Monroe (7th)

Drummond (8th)

Middleton (39th)

[llperez]

the one thing in the article I really disagree with is ainge over Russell and sloan.

Russell is a top 10 player all time considering his pioneering efforts and rings. He also coached the Celtics to a ring. His player accomplishments alone probably make him top 10. Sloan was great as a player where he was a multiple time all-star and well known for  his toughness. He then became one of the greatest coaches of all time imo. Certainly underrated as a coach if you ask me.

Ainge on the other hand was a very average nba player. He then had a very average  4 year run as a coach where he never got out of the first round of the playoffs. As a gm, he has been a terrific run over the last 6-7 years, but the Celtics currently aren’t very good and prior to the summer of 2007 when he acquired KG and Allen, he was on the hot seat and people were widely speculating about him getting the axe. Keep in mind he gave mark blount 40 million guaranteed and traded the 7th overall pick for Sebastian Telfair in 2006. I just think ainge is still up in the air as a gm and didn’t do enough in the other areas to put him ahead of sloans and russells accomplishments. 

[llperez]

the one thing in the article I really disagree with is ainge over Russell and sloan.

Russell is a top 10 player all time considering his pioneering efforts and rings. He also coached the Celtics to a ring. His player accomplishments alone probably make him top 10. Sloan was great as a player where he was a multiple time all-star and well known for  his toughness. He then became one of the greatest coaches of all time imo. Certainly underrated as a coach if you ask me.

Ainge on the other hand was a very average nba player. He then had a very average  4 year run as a coach where he never got out of the first round of the playoffs. As a gm, he has been a terrific run over the last 6-7 years, but the Celtics currently aren’t very good and prior to the summer of 2007 when he acquired KG and Allen, he was on the hot seat and people were widely speculating about him getting the axe. Keep in mind he gave mark blount 40 million guaranteed and traded the 7th overall pick for Sebastian Telfair in 2006. I just think ainge is still up in the air as a gm and didn’t do enough in the other areas to put him ahead of sloans and russells accomplishments. 

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

I would put a greater emphasis on being a GREAT player.  That, AND being GREAT at another capacity.

I would go with Jerry West at number 1.  One of the original great guards, Mr. Clutch had an NBA title and played in the NBA Finals basically every year.  After coaching a few years, he then takes over as GM of the LA Lakers as his team DOMINATES the league.  … he also had a few solid years as GM of the Memphis Grizzlies turning one of the worst franchises in pro sports into a respectable outfit.

Pat Riley has two rings as a GM, but more as a coach (5?).  His solid but not spectacular career puts him at number 2.  You have to give him credit for coaching 4 Showtime title teams, but another coach won in 1980 and even Mike Dunleavy took that squad (minus Kareem) to the Finals.  … bonus points for Riles for pulling one of the greatest coups in NBA history by putting together the Big Three in Miami.

I would consider moving Larry Bird up to 3.  One of the best EVER as a player, as a member of the league’s Big Three during the early David Stern era, and as a member of the Dream Team.  The NBA’s greatest forward hands down before TD and LeBron showed up (Bird might still be better), won 3 titles in an era of some LOADED teams.  He then coaches the Pacers to the Finals, and now is putting together a great contender in Indiana.  I would call Larry Bird the best ALL AROUND on this list.  An impeccable resume as a player, coach, GM, and team president.  Best thing about Larry, he never wore out his welcome.  He always left us wanting more.  Bonus points for Larry Legend the player for quitting on the top of Mount Olympus — as a gold medal winning Dream Teamer.

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

I would put a greater emphasis on being a GREAT player.  That, AND being GREAT at another capacity.

I would go with Jerry West at number 1.  One of the original great guards, Mr. Clutch had an NBA title and played in the NBA Finals basically every year.  After coaching a few years, he then takes over as GM of the LA Lakers as his team DOMINATES the league.  … he also had a few solid years as GM of the Memphis Grizzlies turning one of the worst franchises in pro sports into a respectable outfit.

Pat Riley has two rings as a GM, but more as a coach (5?).  His solid but not spectacular career puts him at number 2.  You have to give him credit for coaching 4 Showtime title teams, but another coach won in 1980 and even Mike Dunleavy took that squad (minus Kareem) to the Finals.  … bonus points for Riles for pulling one of the greatest coups in NBA history by putting together the Big Three in Miami.

I would consider moving Larry Bird up to 3.  One of the best EVER as a player, as a member of the league’s Big Three during the early David Stern era, and as a member of the Dream Team.  The NBA’s greatest forward hands down before TD and LeBron showed up (Bird might still be better), won 3 titles in an era of some LOADED teams.  He then coaches the Pacers to the Finals, and now is putting together a great contender in Indiana.  I would call Larry Bird the best ALL AROUND on this list.  An impeccable resume as a player, coach, GM, and team president.  Best thing about Larry, he never wore out his welcome.  He always left us wanting more.  Bonus points for Larry Legend the player for quitting on the top of Mount Olympus — as a gold medal winning Dream Teamer.

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

I don’t see how Rudy T is at five (great playing career with two titles as a coach while Bill Russell is at 10 with a TON of titles as a player and as a player/coach for two PLUS some more experience as a head coach and a GM. 

11 rings is 11 rings.  Credited with two as a coach which has to count for something.

I would only put Jerry West, Larry Bird, and Pat Riley ahead of him.  Bill Sharman gets credit for kick starting Showtime (4th or 5th overall?) and Phil Jackson with coaching domination and decent playing time in the NBA are also in the mix. 

My ranking:

1.  Jerry West

2.  Pat Riley

3.  Larry Bird

4.  Bill Russell

5.  Phil Jackson

6.  Bill Sharman

7. K.C. Jones

8.  Lenny Wilkens

9.  Rudy Tomjonavich

10. Jerry Sloan

 

I think K.C. Jones should have been on this list.  No GM experience, but 8 titles as a player on those Bill Russell Celtics, an assistant coach on that ’72 Lakers title team, and the head coach of the ’84 and ’86 Celtics title teams. 

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

I don’t see how Rudy T is at five (great playing career with two titles as a coach while Bill Russell is at 10 with a TON of titles as a player and as a player/coach for two PLUS some more experience as a head coach and a GM. 

11 rings is 11 rings.  Credited with two as a coach which has to count for something.

I would only put Jerry West, Larry Bird, and Pat Riley ahead of him.  Bill Sharman gets credit for kick starting Showtime (4th or 5th overall?) and Phil Jackson with coaching domination and decent playing time in the NBA are also in the mix. 

My ranking:

1.  Jerry West

2.  Pat Riley

3.  Larry Bird

4.  Bill Russell

5.  Phil Jackson

6.  Bill Sharman

7. K.C. Jones

8.  Lenny Wilkens

9.  Rudy Tomjonavich

10. Jerry Sloan

 

I think K.C. Jones should have been on this list.  No GM experience, but 8 titles as a player on those Bill Russell Celtics, an assistant coach on that ’72 Lakers title team, and the head coach of the ’84 and ’86 Celtics title teams. 

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