[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

I just saw a post about Chris Bosh and it made me think about who the “max” players are. That is, who deserves a contract at the maximum salary a team can offer? Some obvious ones would be Kobe, LBJ and DWade, but what about a guy like Pau? he’s not even the best player on his team, but does he deserve a max deal?

IMO, there aren’t a lot of guys that truly deserve the “max” deal and I think that too many people got it when the economy was all happy, but now that we’re in a recession, I think they are going to come about less frequently. Al Jefferson didn’t take the max deal when he signed his second contract with the Wolves and I think that’s a trend that will continue.

So who do you think is a max guy? and do you think it’s smart for any team to carry two max players? does it cripple the rest of your roster?

[llperez]

Guys like Allan Houston, Shawn Marion, and Rashard lewis getting 20 mill per is what hurts teams. I’m a firm believer in that overpaying players hurts teams far more then being frugal. Bad contracts is what makes it hard to sign new talent, make trades, and build a contender. I think we will see guys signing for more like 14-16 million per year very soon. Of course Lebron and Wade will get the max. But guys like Carmelo, Bosh, and Amare are probably gonna be a little dissapointed unless someone over pays them.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Do you think Brandon Roy deserved a max deal?

[llperez]

yes, he is special. I think he is a top 10 or 15 player in this league, and guys like him probably deserve it. But you also have to keep in mind that the “max” the first time you become a free agent is quite a bit less then a max deal the second time you hit free agency. Guys like Lebron and Wade and Bosh who are going into their third contract will have a higher “max” then a guy like Roy who is going into his second contract.

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

I think he no doubt deserved a max deal… the hard part about doling out the contracts is that you have to be able to see the player’s performance down the line BEFORE it happens. The other problem has been that if you don’t give your own players the max deal, someone else will, which gives the players all the leverage.

in the nba, a team’s ability to sign their own players even if over the salary cap is a teams main weapon in putting together a roster… that means that DRAFTING the star is the most important part of assembling a roster… signing free agents means you have to have the salary cap room to do it, and that’s hard to do.

[Michael.S.Participant]

Melo is better then Roy, thus being a max player.

[llperez]

I think it is very close, but I would take Roy over Melo. Roy does more to create for his teammates and gets into the lane. Melo is a great scorer, but when he is off, he doesn’t do the some of the other things that superstars do to effect the game.

But like I was alluding to earlier, Melo and Roy getting max deals on their second contract is a no brainer. But I would have to think long about giving them max deals on their third contract.

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

I think a lot of it depends on who you already have on your team, as far as the 3rd contract goes… If you have a bunch of young guys on your team already who you think are sufficient to surround your “max” player and win a championship, than go ahead and give the “max” deal, but if you don’t have those pieces already, don’t give the max deal, because you’ll hand cuffed to the guys you already have on the team

[JNixonParticipant]

They scored at almost the same rate (22.6 to 22.8 ppg), Melo rebounds better (5 boards to Melo’s 6), Roy passes better and more efficently (5 assts/2 to’s, Carmelo: 3 assts/3 to’s). Roy also shoots more efficiently (48 fg%, 38% pt to Melo’s 44 fg% and 37% 3 pt). Roy’s the better defender, on and off the ball and they registered the same amount of steals and blocks. Roy’s also much better in the clutch. Looks like they are either on the same level or Roy’s the better player since he was better statistically in more categories.

[llperez]

i agree with you iguodala. If i was starting a franchise, I would take Roy over Melo.

[QHaynes20]

I dunno tough

Melo from day 1 lead the Nuggets to the playoffs…

Roy eh…had alot of help

I dunno, I think it’s closer then u think

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Here we go comparing those apples and oranges again lol.

[QHaynes20]

But it is the truth…..

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

I don’t think Melo is half the leader that BRoy is

[Michael.S.Participant]

Roy’s also much better in the clutch?
How?

[JNixonParticipant]

It’s very close, I think it’s neck and neck. That’s why I said “Looks like they are either on the same level or Roy’s the better player since he was better statistically in more categories.” But I would pick Roy if I was starting a team.

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

One thing I will say about nbadraft.net is it’s a lot of discussion about which player is better than another player, which is basically the lowest level discussion you can have about basketball players… (that and, this guy is just like this guy) that’s what it always boils down to, inevitably.

players are different and they all bring different things to the table.

[JNixonParticipant]

Brandon Roy always comes through in the clutch, and Melo doesnt all the time. I cant find a stat for game-winners because its not official. But you would rather have Brandon Roy with the ball in the closing seconds down by 1 or 2 than Carmelo right?

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

They’re different players and have different responsibilities, but if I had to choose… It’s close, but I’d choose Roy. I think Roy has more leadership ability. They’re both pretty clutch (Melo hit at least two game winners that I saw last season vs OKC and Dallas), but I think Roy has the edge here also. Roy probably hit arguably the best game winner of the regular season last season vs Houston. Roy usually takes over in the 4th quarter.

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

and if im not mistaken it was Roy’s 2nd game winner of that game, because yao answered his first game winner with an and-1 (with the foul being on roy)… i felt bad for the guy and then he throws up a turn around and SWOOSH

[Michael.S.Participant]

Hey Tezo what was that word after “Roy probably hit arguably the best game winner of the ? last season vs Hou.

He doesn’t have a killer instinct like Melo

[QHaynes20]

People always underrated Melo.

I would take Melo over Roy…but it’s so close I think either pick wont be bad

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

SDE didn’t underrate melo 😉

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

I don’t think Melo was ever underrated until this year… this year he really picked up the intensity on D and people didn’t give him the recognition for it.

[llperez]

Melo is a great player no doubt. I disagree with people who are already putting Durant as the best sf over him. But it’s not like saying he is a close second to roy is a slap in the face. Melo goes to work and gets buckets. But roy is a guy that I would rather build a team around because he just has more tools. He makes the whole team better.

[JNixonParticipant]

Yea its funny because Melo was considered overrated wayyy more often then underrated before. And he did defend better last year without much recognition, especially in the playoffs (he even matched up with Kobe in the Lakers series in the 4th quarter in all the games).

[QHaynes20]

It’s not a slap in the face.

Melo to me this year, showed he is making his game more effort on D and still provides the scoring. Like I said before, he lead the Nuggets from day 1 to the playoffs every year

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

Did he? I think Andre Miller had a lot to do with getting them to the playoffs the first couple years.

[JNixonParticipant]

Andre Miller is who’s underrated. All he does is lead teams to the playoffs.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Obviously a game winner during the playoffs would mean more than one during the regular season, but that wasn’t what the conversation was about. Quit knit picking.

[QHaynes20]

Take Melo off those teams….they would have not made the playoffs

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

take miller off that team or take camby off that team and they don’t make the playoffs. that doesn’t prove anything

[QHaynes20]

Melo was the #1 option on that team. Take Aldridge, Outlaw off that Blazer team that made the playoff 1 season….they wouldn’t have made the playoffs

Im done arguing about it….

[JNixonParticipant]

Take Miller off and they wouldnt have either.

[llperez]

man, on a side note, I think Dick Bavetta might have cost the Jazz a shot at the title in ’98. I’m watching game 6 right now, the one where jordan hit the jumper over russell to win it. Anyways, howard eisley nailed a 3 that bavetta called off due to a shot clock violation. It was total bs. The ball was probably like 15 feet out of Howards hands before it switched from 1 second to 0 seconds. Even the announcers were wondering what bavetta was calling. It wasn’t even close.

just thought i’d add that.

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

well Q, what you’re trying to argue is that Melo, a rookie, led a team that had two veteran leaders on it as well… which is a much less convincing argument than roy led a team of other young players…

[QHaynes20]

Uh…Really?

Andre Miller who left 2 previous teams? He was a decent player…never a all-star and a little overrated IMO. Although, I think he adds a great vet spit at PG….a tad overrated

Marcus Camby who was injury proned most of his career?

Those 2 vet leaders….and you know what? Melo came in and averaged 21ppg, 6rpg. Uh….say what you want, I would take Melo.

I dont think taking Roy is a bad choice, I rather have Melo

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

you define lead as having the best stats, i’m talking about actually being a leader on the team…

[QHaynes20]

What about Andre Miller and Camby…those guys are leaders. Overrated leaders

To me, that’s one of the most overrated thing in sports

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

lol, that’s because you’re obsessed with stats…

[QHaynes20]

whatever you think to help your arguement…..

like I said. Miller is a tad overrated and Camby has been injury prone in his career and Melo came in and gave the team hope from off the bat. I liked him since….doesn’t matter because like I said ” Either pick is a good pick”

[JNixonParticipant]

Leading is the most overrated thing in sports? WOW….that was possibly the dumbest thing anyone has said on this site. If there was no leadership, there would be no sports sir.

[QHaynes20]

one of the most overrated things…get it right

[gatorheelsParticipant]

I would take Brandon Roy.  Roy has improved at least a little every year since he has been in the NBA.  Meanwhile when you really look at it Melo really broke out in the 2005-2006 season.  But since then he has pretty much stayed the same in my opinion.  Melo did step up at times in the playoffs this season which was impressive.  Still Roy has the edge & I know this may be hard for some people to believe but Roy actually has room to improve even more while I’m afraid Melo may have already reached his peak.

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

you’ll get it when you’re older…. did i just give away who i am?

[sheltwon3Participant]

Melo at one season was better in the clutch than Kobe. He bring more to the table than you realize. His game at forward is not about setting his teammates up. He finishing well and has at least started playing D. I would take Melo because the issue with b Roy was health concerns also they are not that far apart in age because Melo came out early

[gatorheelsParticipant]

As for Andre Miller I would say he is a little underrated if anything.  That hurts me to say that since I am not a fan of his ha.  I think the 76ers will struggle this season some without him.  Meanwhile you will see a much better Portland team this year.  Miller is a well above average starting caliber PG at the moment.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

I don’t think leading/leadership is overrated at all. Look at what the leadership of Billups meant to the Nuggets. They were a completely different team with him at the point.

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

yea, the guy makes people around him better, evidence being that the nuggets became a good team once he got there, and same for the 76ers…. he’s a leader… you need those to win games.

[JNixonParticipant]

Still remarkably dumb….its the most important thing in sports. Name any championship team without a great leader. I challenge you..haha

[QHaynes20]

I understand Leadership is important but to me, sometimes people take Leadership and to me make it like a talent…..uh…NO.

Sorry, I like my talent. (Not saying Melo is way better then Roy)

Also, dude your always saying i understand when im older because you know I’m making more sense.

Miller is a tad overrated. Even in his prime, he never did well with a whole bunch of good talents.

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

i say that cuz you’re being hard-headed and stubborn… and after making a sensible argument you respond by continuing to be stubborn.

and, when has he ever NOT done well? he basically is put on teams that are young and need someone to bring it all together for them… that’s like the story of his career.

[JNixonParticipant]

I dont understand how you can think Andre Miller is overrated. He’s universally considered one of the more underrated players in basketball. Nobody says anything about him other than his ability to win games, get his teams to play to the absolute best of their ability, and create for his teammates. And he does do all of that. Nobody mentions him as a MVP candidate or an all-star, just a winner that makes everyone better.

[QHaynes20]

IM sorry, Your right Andre Miller never played for the Cavaliers and Clippers…yea, turned those teams around.

im not being stubborn, im speaking the truth. For Example someone mention Chancey Billups….

he never started out a leader thus playing for like 7 teams in 7 seasons (estimation)

he went to a team with good players there and lead the team. You take Sheed off that team that once season…they dont win a title and we prob dont have this discussion.

He goes to Denver where he gets the shine as ” The Golden Boy” when really- he lead the team. He played with better, younger athletes in Denver thus allowing him to make his job easier.

not questioning his leadership but, to me it’s not nothing where I say ” Boy! He is better then CP3, D-Will because…he’s a leader.”

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

People, especially Philadelphia fans will realize just how underrated he is when the 76ers hit the floor this season.

[JNixonParticipant]

Low blow Tezo lol…low blow.

[QHaynes20]

Whats the difference between leadership and experience?

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

that’s because being a leader is something you gain with time and experience… that’s why you never see a team with a bunch of rookies win ANYTHING even if they are wildly talented.. sure you can look at the cavs and clips days and blame that on him, or you can look at the more recent years (which are what is relevant) and you can see what milller and billups can bring to the table.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

I think I get what you’re trying to say Q and I think you have it backwards. Nobody is saying that leadership alone makes you better than another player. That’d be silly. I’d just rather have a player who is both talented and a leader rather than a player who’s just talented.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

My bad Iggy lol

[QHaynes20]

You got what im saying, I dont like people say ” I rather take this player…more leadership”

when its two good players. Stupid to me.

[JNixonParticipant]

It would’ve taken God and John the Baptist to turn around the late-90’s and early 2000’s Cavs and Clippers teams. That doesnt make him overrated because couldnt make them good, they needed more than 1 player. If you give him NBA level talent, he will win you games.

And who said Brandon Roy was better than Carmelo because he was a better leader? I never saw that post…

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

you’re the one being stupid. when there are two talented players, and you’re trying to break the tie, how could u not look to leadership as the tie breaker?

that’s like saying that you’d take stephon marbury over chauncey billups… both are very talented, but…. stephon is a little more talented so you’ll go with him.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Leadership and experience are what sepeartes two equally talented players though.

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

talent is what gets your team to the 4th quarter, neck and neck with the other team… the score is 90-90… leadership and experience is what gets you the win.

[QHaynes20]

Good Lord….People, goo look back at past post. PLEASE, everytime ppl write without reading, please read past posts…..

[QHaynes20]

Sorry dude…im dumb?

Never said Leadership was the most overrated…I said one of the most.

I dont like people picking player because there “Leaders”

I rather have CP3 OVER Billups…sorry

I rather have Melo over Roy…sorry

I rather have a superstar talent then a guy people like because he’s a leader…….whatever to me, my opinion. when you question me by calling me dumb, you need to chill bro. Learn to respect opinions bitch.

Account that.

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

hahhahah you said “stupid to me” first

[JNixonParticipant]

OK I see. But they were using it to break a “tie” in how’s better than who. It seems like they thought it was a neck-nad-neck (just like I do) and leadership was the thing that would bring Roy over the top since they were so close. It was a “tiebreaker.”

[QHaynes20]

Sorry dude…im dumb?

Never said Leadership was the most overrated…I said one of the most.

I dont like people picking player because there “Leaders”

I rather have CP3 OVER Billups…sorry

I rather have Melo over Roy…sorry

I rather have a superstar talent then a guy people like because he’s a leader…….whatever to me, my opinion. when you question me by calling me dumb, you need to chill bro. Learn to respect opinions bitch.

Account that.

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

and you are entitled to your opinion, but seeing as this is a forum, you then back-up your opinion, and other people back up theirs… that’s how it works.

[QHaynes20]

I didn’t call you stupid. Read that post again….focus.

[QHaynes20]

I didn’t call you stupid. Read that post again….focus, since your older like you keep saying maybe you lost your eyesight i dunno, but read it again..

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

i was just using your wording… literally. i wouldn’t have said stupid, but for the fact you said stupid

[QHaynes20]

But you used it for no reason to disrespect me. you mock my age all the time but it sounds like your the kid….

I didn’t call you stupid nor was I talking to you…you called me stupid for no reason…

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

i just told u the reason. lol. it sounded like you were calling our logic stupid. so i told you what i thought was stupid.

[QHaynes20]

you though i was stupid? See that’s your problem, your a hypocrite.

Everytime I post something you disagree with you always blow me and go ” You’ll understand when your older”

but for you to call me stupid for no reason…makes you sound like a hypocrite and a idiot who just wanna hop on kids nuts because you wanna use your age as something to brag or big up yourself

Please you need to grow up….since your older, you should have already…..

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

Q it always comes back to the fact that i try and explain things to you and you refuse to even try and understand other people’s points, instead wanting to stay in your stat world… then i resort to the you’ll get it when you’re older, because i literally believe that it will just be something that you will understand with time.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Alright y’all lol. It’s over. Neither one of y’all are stupid. This was all a misunderstanding. Q thought we were valuing leadership more than talent when we were actually using leadership/experience as a tie breaker for two players who are neck and neck in talent.

[QHaynes20]

…you got on that whole stat BS to just make your arguement stronger.

All I said was Melo had 21 and 6 his rook year….

to me, that further prove man, your a bullshit artist

[MkadozaParticipant]

To me theres no comparing the talent that Roy and Anthony has. Anthony is the clear winner in natural talent. Roy has more polish, a better basketball IQ, and has a more refined game. He’s a complete player, and about as complete a young player that the NBA has. But he’s not getting substancially better. But Carmelo is consistantly improving his range, his rebounding, his passing, and his defense. He’s always been an extremely underrated offensive rebounder, as he always battles in the post. He’s got the ability to lead the NBA in scoring while giving 7-8 rebounds and 3-4 assists. He’s got some of the best natural scoring instincts I’ve ever seen, and with the match up problems he creates, and the experience he’s getting will make him even better.

And whats with the bashing Melo’s leadership skills? He’s assumed leadership positions on Syracuse leading them to a title in one year, he’s taken leadership positions on 2 Olympics squads, he’s turned the Nuggets into contenders (Say what you will about Miller or Billups, he’s never missed the playoffs with constant shifting of his teammates.) I think a lot of you aren’t giving Melo the credit he deserves, for whatever reason. None of us are in the Nuggets locker room or practices, so we have no idea how much of a leader he is. But he wins all the time, and he goes for the win all the time. (Melo’s hit some game winners himself.) Given theyre the same age, I think Melo needs less to win than Roy does, and that to me, makes him the superior player.

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

Q im done trying to explain this to you. it seemed like you were trying to attribute all of the nuggets success to anthony leading the team and i disagreed with you and gave miller and camby as reasons that they did well… then you countered with stats…

and the reason i say you will get it when you get older is because when i was a teenager i also thought that i knew everything and i had conversations like the ones you and i have with my dad and he would always just tell me that i would understand when i got older… and now i understand. so thats why i say that to you. i come here to learn thru discussion and debate. period.

[MkadozaParticipant]

And who.am.I, please, as respect to everyone on this site, regardless of age, or whatever, don’t lecture others like you know them. Its just a sign of respect. You arent Q’s dad. Dont act like it.

[QHaynes20]

youre not my dad, I never come into every debate saying ” I know it all! Im right, your wrong!” No. I said you can pick either one, still a good pick

I gave you past situations. Camby was average and he also was injury prone. Miller although he had a couple ok seasons, I felt that calling him the leader of that team was overrating him. Melo (although a knuckle head off the court and sometimes) was the man of that team.

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

no i know, and q is the only person that i’ve ever said that to cuz q and i have had A LOT of discussions in the past

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

yea, not trying to say im your dad, just telling you that is where the ‘you will understand when you’re older’ comes from. i only say that when ive tried and tried to give you reasoning and you wont listen, even though i and many others give good arguments.

saying someone is average is just not a good argument

[QHaynes20]

lol, i like how you pick one thing and dont finish that whole sentence, and im the stupid one?

yea…your reasoning isin’t always right. I have my own opinions dont you get it. I dont care what you think, im gonna say my own opinion and if I disagree with you, I can. My opinion.

Just stop saying that really looks like your riding me, honestly.

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

the thing about you and your opinion is that you don’t ever change it, so if you’re not going to change it ever, than why even come to the site to discuss? that doesn’t make sense to me

[QHaynes20]

can you read? that’s the 2nd time you took a quote that wasn’t there….

yea…your reasoning isin’t always right. I have my own opinions dont you get it. I dont care what you think, im gonna say my own opinion and if I disagree with you, I can. My opinion.

never said i dont change my opinion……please read!

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

i know you didn’t say that and never tried to make it seem like you had said that… but, in the entirety of my time coming to this site i have never seen you EVER back off one of your opinions, or modify your opinion, which is kind of the point of discussing.

[QHaynes20]

in the entirety of my time coming to this site i have never seen you EVER back off one of your opinions, or modify your opinion,

gotta pay attention…i do change my mind sometimes….go look at the OSU-USC post in the off-topic thread if you want proof

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

ok

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

i’m talking about changing the opinion from a discussion you had with someone….

[gatorheelsParticipant]

Mkadoza- I think you have it backwards (most people do)…Roy has gotten substantially better the last couple of years while Melo hasn’t.  Melo had a big jump in production from the 2004-2005 to 2005-2006.  After 05-06 though Melo has leveled off.  Meanwhile Roy has improved at least a little every year in the league.  This season 08-09 Roy took a pretty big jump up compared to the 07-08 season.  Yes, it may be hard to see but you have to look closely…Roy was very efficient in 08-09.

[who.am.i.nbadraftdotnetParticipant]

thank god im done with work.

[Author]

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