[dukeballa8711Participant]

– Kobe Bryant has a better team to play with thats it LEBRON is a better player

-i hate that people think that kobe is so much better because kobe hits clutch shots

– Lebron hits clutch shots and if it wasn’t for Derek Fisher they wouldn’t of one that game because Kobe had a terrible 4th quarter and also had some other bad games in the playoffs.

comment please

[llperez]

You could argue for either guy. Yes Kobe has better teammates then Lebron, but let’s not act like LBJ was playing with a bunch of nobody’s. The way I see it, Kobe is more talented and LeBron is bigger and faster and more athletic.

[dukeballa8711Participant]

Trever Ariza is the 5th best player on the Lakers if you put him on the Cavs he is probably there 2nd or 3rd best player

[llperez]

I remember around all-star break arguing with Cavs fans how they said their team was more talented then the Lakers, Mo Williams was an all-star, the Cav bigs would push around the Laker bigs just like Boston did, yadayadayada. Now they all stink huh? That great defense that carried them all year dissapeared in the playoffs as soon as they played a good team.

[dukeballa8711Participant]

Also Mo and Delonte west couldn’t make a shot when they needed one so Lebron had to do it all.

Aleast the Lakers have people that can hit clutch shots other then Kobe like D Fisher

[ckowalskiParticipant]

personally i think both of their teams are filled with a bunch of benchwarmers, except for pau and odom. the lakers LOOK good because teams like the magic overreact as soon as kobe gets within 10 feet of the ball and double him. Its easy to look good when youre hitting wide open shots. MOST players on both sides wouldnt be starting on other teams and werent starting on other teams until they were traded to the lakers and cavs.

That being said i still think lebron is the better player because he makes his teammates better and kobe doesnt. Come on Mo Williams as an allstar before he joined the cavs? He wouldnt have even come close. kobe had better teammates to start off with. pau was the best player on memphis for a long time and odom was great with miami. the lakers bench is horrific but odom could still outscore and outrebound the entire cavs bench by himself without even trying.

plus i think lebron is better because he takes what he has and makes the most of it. yea his team sucks but he still comes out to play every night and doesnt put the blame on his teammates when they lose. kobe takes his whiny a** to the front office and cries until they trade for better teammates.

[dukeballa8711Participant]

Also Kobe whines after every fricken call its so annoying because he thinks he is the &@%& and the greatest player of all time when he isn’t really

[llperez]

I can see you don’t like Kobe, so I won’t try to argue with you on whether he’s better then Lebron, but you totally contradicted yourself in your argument. First you said that the Lakers are a bunch of scrubs and the only reason they hit shots and made plays was because Orlando was focused on stopping Kobe. Then you turn around and say Kobe does’nt make his players better. So you are saying that Ariza and Fisher are scrubs who would’nt do anything without Kobe, but he does’nt make them better? You can’t have it both ways.

[llperez]

you guys are justg being haters. All great players whine and think they are the best. You gonna tell me Lebron is the most humble player or that Jordan never got after the officials? But because he’s Kobe he’s an arrogant whiner, yeah okay, good luck trying to have a rational conversation on this subject with you.

[dukeballa8711Participant]

I am just saying that Kobe argues more then Lebron

[ckowalskiParticipant]

ariza and fisher havent done anything without kobe. ariza bounced around the league and fish was on that jazz team that went to the conference finals. thats it. look how houston played kobe. one defender on him and let him take all the shots he wants. once that one defender gets beat then trust your teammates have your back. i dont like kobe youre right so im trying to make my argument logical so i will try again.

I think fish and ariza and even bynum are at best role players. Pau and kobe are the only 2 on that team that can create their own shot. I dont think anyone disagrees with me on that. I’m only talking starting 5 so im leaving out odom on purpose but i do think he can create for himself as well. Bynum is very raw and could still develop into a great player but hes not there yet. a lot of his points come off the pick and roll or offensive rebounds. although he did show off that baby sky hook in the playoffs haha. ariza is strictly a defender and spot up shooter. not to say that he cant get to the basket but he really doesnt have the frame to bang inside. fisher in essence is the same player. plays tough physical defense and can hit the open shot. When i say kobe doesnt make them better i mean what you see is what you get. If you overpay for ariza this summer hes not going to score 20 ppg and have 8 rpg. hes a defender and a good shooter, like a shane battier. but kobe didnt bring this out in him, he simply benefitted from the system he played in. Fisher, I actually like and I think hes a good point guard, but once again kobe didnt make him who he is. no one is talking about oh derek fisher and ariza are going to the allstar game in dallas in 2010.

IMO if you take kobe off the lakers they still have a legit shot to make the playoffs. If you take lebron off the cavs they have a legit shot at the number 1 pick in the draft. that doesnt scream to me that kobe makes his teammates better.
im not all over lebrons nuts either, i dont think hes the greatest player ever and i think all the comparisons like hes the second coming of jordan are ridiculous. i just think that he is a better player because he can make the team around him perform at a higher rate. the cavs on paper look awful. they have 2 undersized guards, and an aging frontcourt. they have no reliable scoring off the bench, but somehow lebron can make this team win games. the lakers on paper look dominant. they have a young frontcourt ( i think pau is only 28?), kobe is kobe, their backcourt is maybe their only weakness because of fishers age. the bench is pretty bad too but odom brings stability to that. plus they have arguably the greatest nba coach of all time pulling the strings. maybe its just a matter of kobe doesnt need to be a great facilitator because they have other pieces, but lebron can really pull a rabbit out of a hat.

I think the biggest knock on kobe was that he couldnt win without a dominant big (Shaq). and a lot of critics are now saying that his legacy is cemented he won on his own. I really question that statement. I think pau is that dominant big man kobe needs to win. i really thought pau should have been the mvp of the lakers last year, they were a .500 team at best before they added him. He may not be able to command 2 or even 3 defenders like shaq could but he is a presence you cant ignore in the paint. regardless this criticism never made sense to me because kobe can hit a shot with 5 hands in his face so why would he need a big man? anyways just my 2 cents.

[llperez]

well you made a lot of good points there. I agree that Fish and Ariza are strictly role players, i agree the Lakers would have a chance to make the playoffs without Kobe but I doubt they would have beat out the Suns for eigth. I agree the cavs would be one of the 5 worst teams in the league without LBJ.

But now let me disagree with you. Everyone who plays with Kobe talks about how hard he is on his teammates and how he sets an example of how hard they need to work. Even the guys in the olympics gave Kobe’s work ethic and attention to detail credit. Secondly, if Kobe does’nt draw those defenders to himself, how do you think guys like Fisher and Ariza would get those shots? Both of Fisher’s big threes came as a result of Kobe getting double teamed. Guys like Shannon Brown, Ariza, and Luke Walton are all better because of Kobe. Even Pau plays with more passion now then he did when he first got to LA. What more do you want Kobe to do to make his teammates better?

A perfect example is Vujacic. The main reason Vujacic had a breakout year last year was because ater Ariza went down with injury, Sasha played on the court with Kobe most the time. Kobe drew the defense and got sasha open looks. Now that Ariza is back, Sasha only plays when Kobe is on the bench and now he sucks because he does’nt have anyone to create shots for him. Heck, Kobe even draws up plays in the huddle.

Also, as far as the Pau being MVP comment and Kobe needing Pau, true he needed Pau, but Pau is not a dominant big man. Pau had never won a single playoff game in his career befor he got to play with Kobe. And last year, before the Lakers traded for Gasol, the Lakers were one of the best teams in the west already and were on their way for 50+ wins. Pau basically just made up for losing Bynum and helped push them over the top. Every great player needs help. That’s why LeBron has zero finals wins while Kobe has 4 rings. I’m not sure why having help makes Kobe a worse player. Personally, I thought he should have won mvp the year he took Smush, Kwame, Luke, and Odom to 45 wins and one game away from knocking off the suns, all while scoring 35.5 pts and playing first team defense.

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

LeBron had this great team that got him 60 plus wins. All everyone kept saying was, Cavs are a Finals lock. Well it took them losing for you LeBron fans to say he doesn’t have a good team. Yet all throughout the regular season, I kept hearing how great the Cavs were, and that LeBron finally had a supporting cast.

BTW- To the original poster, Fisher got both shots because of the attention Kobe was drawing (doubled both times). What did you do, watch ESPN highlights and make your own analysis?

Grow up and understand the game, before you make such ridiculous claims.

[dukeballa8711Participant]

Even if Kobe is drawing defenders he should come get the ball like Lebron

Lebron came to the ball and wasnt afraid to take the shot

Kobe might of been afraid to take the shot or didnt want to take the shot

[WälseParticipant]

LBJ IS still better…that said, no one should change their opinion of the two players based on 1 or 2 series in which they both played relatively well.

[ckowalskiParticipant]

Yes the cavs had a good TEAM but not good PLAYERS. They worked well together but if you were to split them up they would be ineffective. The Magic were a bad matchup for the cavs and they knew it. Too big and too athletic for the cavs to handle. The second shot fisher had was wide open because his defender was lying on the ground after taking an elbow to the face, and the first shot was a combination of a good look and poor defense, but doubling kobe on the inbounds pass really hurt their transistion defense, although not enough to where they should have given up that shot.

As far as kobe being scared to take the shot, come on. neither of us like kobe but both of us know that’s bull. kobe just has someone else he can pass to who he trusts.

[dukeballa8711Participant]

thats what i said he didnt want to take the shot jeezzzzzz

[llperez]

Now I’ve heard it all, Kobe is scared to take the last shot. Get LeBrons nuts out of your mouth clown, not even the biggest Kobe hater would argue he is scared to take big shots.

[bluedevils12Participant]

dukeballa i love ur college choice and all but u really have lost all common sense by sayin kobe was “afraid to take the shot”. I hope that was sum kinda joke or sumthing becuz that jus sounds dumb. and i can tell ur a kobe hater and thats cool becuz im not lebron’s biggest fan. but llperez and many others have said basically all that i would have said. Cavs were hyped up as havin all this talent and all of a sudden they lose and become benchwarmers? come on bron jus didnt get it done. Kobe did. Live with it

[dukeballa8711Participant]

I was just messin with you wen i said he was afaid to take the shot i just cant figure out why he didnt
okay man llperez needs to settle down a little bit

[WälseParticipant]

LBJ didnt get it done? 39-8-8 isnt good enough? on less that 26 shots a game & 49% shooting against the Magic….to Kobe’s 32-6-7 on 27 shots & 43% shooting against those same Magic. its not reasonable to say Kobe out performed LBJ…the Ship is a TEAM award. as crazy as it sounds, i think folks give it too much bearing when it comes to individual talent…was not Jordan the best player in the NBA long before he got that first title at 29?

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

What are you talking about? The Cavs players would be the exact wherever they go. Mo WIlliams just had a breakout year before going to the Cavs and D West would be a successful undersized guard wherever he goes. You can say what you want (you’ll be wrong), but LeBron had his cast and they didn’t win, thats what matters.

[ckowalskiParticipant]

mo would be decent on another team but he really benefits from playing with lebron. delonte can be good at times, he plays hard on defense but thats just it, theyre really undersized. that team gets killed by a big backcourt. mo’s pushing what 6’1” and delonte is 6’3”? They really need to get a SG with some size and bring delonte off the bench to run the point. Big z and ben are getting towards the end of their careers and you can say whatever you want (and youll also be wrong) but they couldnt compete with the athleticism of lewis and howard. lebron brings that team together somehow and i for one have no idea how he does it. put any other nba superstar on that team in place of him and see what would happen. they would probably ask for a trade after 10 games. he has absolutely zero bench help too. cavs had a good team i agree but individual players not so much. im not sure that you can really call mo williams and delonte west a great supporting cast.

[nicemustacheParticipant]

They are both amazing players….but two different types of players….Kobe = Jordan : Lebron = Magic

You can’t argue these types of things until both of the players careers are over…

[Mr.CreativeParticipant]

Both are amazing talents that are two of the best players hands down now. This debate will go on forever about who is better than who. However, MJ is in a class of his own, what he achieved in his career is phenomenal. But back to Lebron & Kobe, each of them have their upsides and downsides. Just like “nicemustache” mentioned, “wait until both their careers are over”. But it is a great game whenever both of them clash on the court. Two phenomenal players but two entirely different games.

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

LeBron isn’t prolly going to get any better. They need to get him some more all stars or something. What else could he do? Improve his jumper? Unlikely considering he has a hitch in his shot. People who love LeBron are guys who love pure athleticism & care less about skill. Kobe fans, are ones who love skill over natural talent.
Kobe fans have seen hundreds of guys with Kobe’s athleticism come along, yet Kobe developed game, thats what separates him. Kobe is in his thirties, and still ball’n. Which is an accomplishment in itself. Entire teams still have to focus to stop this aging star, thats just incredible.

LeBron is a natural freak, he’s amazing to watch, he has that pop, that wow factor, that jaw dropping ability, & he’s literally in his own mold. Never has a guy with his NATURAL ability been on this planet, and who knows when/or if we’ll see the next one. LeBron’s entire game relies on his athleticism. He’s not this incredible guy with vision, he’s a guy who creates mismatches, then proceeds to find the obviously open man. Thats great? Hardly. Sure it’s better than many, but not great. Great vision and passing is when Nash bounces a ball 55′ feet in between defenders with his off hand. Just think about his game, then picture him older. Let’s say thirty two, will he still be “Great”, I doubt it. Will his “Game” be there to carry him into greatness, cause his athleticism won’t. I don’t think LeBron will develop much more, I truly believe this, I believe he’s close to peaking. Sure, I could be wrong, but else will he do? So for you LeBron lovers, what are his skills? Are they all derived from his athleticism, if so, then don’t count them. I want his basketball skills.

If he continues on his current pace, he will go down a great, and he should. But how many of you think he will be as great as Kobe at Kobe’s age? Many of you don’t consider this.

[WälseParticipant]

he could be as good. he could be better. he could be worse. it’s really up to him. he’ll have to improve his jumper, which he certainly will do. its a must that he develop a post game, since his size and strength will always be there. his court vision, which is excellent, and is considered excellent by NBA legends and analysts, will only improve. he’ll incorporate many new things into his game as he gets older, like all veterans do. he may never hit fadeaway jumpers like Kobe, but he wont need to because his size, strength, vision, blah blah blah will all still be there. and if he takes care of his body, which i would assume he will, he’ll be more athletic than Kobe is now because he’s just a better athete. and although Kobe is not as athletic as he once was, he’s still a well above average NBA athlete as Lebron will be. add all that to a top-tier supporting class and a HOF coach and i’m sure LBJ can enjoy tremendous success well into his 30s…but, you could be right…stranger things have happened. the only reason anyone would consider this is if we were talking about him vying for GOAT status. i suppose that’s what you had in mind…

as far as you saying that LBJ doesnt have great vision, i’ll take the word of the Magic Johnson’s, Jerry West’s, Hubie Brown’s, Jack Ramsay’s, Charles Barkley’s etc. of the world over yours. do you really think you’re right and they’re wrong?!!! that’s like me telling Beethoven that he didn’t play a Sonata correctly. lol

[ckowalskiParticipant]

You’re right Kobe is more of a finesse player and LeBron uses his athleticism to suceed right now. But think about it. LeBron was drafted to carry this team from Day One. He never had an older, more experienced vet to show him how to run a team and then hand over the reigns for him to take over after a few years. Kobe has had that luxury of being surrounded by a core of veterans that he could learn from. Kobe had Shaq, Fisher, Horry, Fox, even Brian Shaw. He was never asked as a rookie to carry the scoring load of an entire team and make everyone around him better. Instead he had the benefit of being a recipient of the kick out from Shaq double teams, or being the guy on the other end of the pass from the Fisher drive. He was brought along slowly and he had a good set of veterans around him to teach him the game. LeBron is the one that drives, kicks it out to himself, takes the shot, and most times gets the rebound too. Not too say that this makes him a ballhog but who else was there? Who else could he count on to score points on a regular basis without him having to set them up? Kobe wasn’t even the best player on his team for a good 4 to 5 years, let alone the best in the NBA. I think LeBron will still be great when he is 32. His shooting has gotten better every year, he now has a halfway reliable 3 point shot, and he makes more of his free throws than he used to. Kobe is on the decline. Yes he just won a championship but this is a guy that thrives on shooting over you. What happens in 2 or 3 years when all those games take their toll and he can’t get off his jump shot over his defender? The most dangerous part of his game will be tamed. LeBron can beat you in so many more ways: he can knock down the jumper, he can take it to the rim, he can get offensive rebounds and put backs, he can get out in transition and score, he can post you up. Kobe is an absolutely amazing shooter and he can score a ridiculous number of points, but that is just one element of the game. The rest of his game is good as well but not on par with LeBron. LeBron is developing an all around amazing game because of the environment that he was put into. He is being asked to do it all and that’s exactly what he’s doing.

[pistonsmanParticipant]

This has been going on for years whos Better Kobe or Lebron and the truth really is Kobe is better Lebron If he’s ”King James” why hasn’t he won a ring yet. C’mon he’s ”King James” he should be able to beat the NBA by himself if he is king James.

[DUKEisbetterthenUNCParticipant]

he doesnt have a ring because he doesnt have a teamate worth a crap…

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

Worlds largest paragraph? All the strengths you attributed to LeBron are derived from his athleticism, what can he do once it’s gone. Kobe’s athleticism has dropped significantly, but he still gets “IT” done. LeBron is just a Physical Specimen, it works for him, don’t get me wrong. I think LeBron is a different type player and I believe it will show as he ages. So many of the things that make him great now, won’t even be options when he gets older. He’ll need to develop a post game & correct that funky looking shot of his. It’s all good though, we’ll agree to disagree.

[bluedevils12Participant]

u asked me was lebron doin wat he did not enough? obviously it wasnt becuz they didnt WIN. the key word in all this is winning. the difference between bron and kobe is that kobe wil take as many shots as he needs 2 take in order 4 his team 2 win the game. if kobe has 2 shoot 4o shots a game he will becuz he understands he has 2 will the team. and yes u were rite about the numbers and kobe’s percent but kobe makes enough 2 win the game. Lebron defers 2 his teammates 2 much. he lacks the killer instinct kobe and jordan have. all this losing is making lebron realize wat he has 2 do and that is lebron has 2 be the guy to will the team. and jus 2 mention i like arguing with u becuz u seem 2 be the only bron fan that has a clue wat he is talking about.

[WälseParticipant]

first off, i appreciate that you like arguing with me. lol…the killer instinct thing is make believe. where was the killer instinct when Kobe was fumbling the ball at the end of games, shooting poorly down the stretch, missing free-throws etc…LBJ was the one who hit the big clutch shot although he ultimately came up short….if you like Kobe more as a player i can except that, but don’t let the media convince you that Kobe somehow wants to win more than Lebron does, or anyone in the NBA for that matter. they all want it. they shouldnt have to make ridiculous faces and glare at their teammates to prove it to you….LBJ is more of a fun loving guy than Kobe. that doesnt mean that he wants it less….are you telling me that Kobe takes 30+ shots in a game and shoots under 40% because he understands that’s what he needs to do to help his team win? we all know that Kobe can get carried away and force shots quite often which hurts the team. LBJ does it too at times…once again, dont let the hype cloud your judgement…..LBJ came into the league with a supreme understanding of team ball. Kobe has just recently acquired it, and it mysteriously came about the instant the Lakers got Pau Gasol. LBJ gets killed for deferring while Kobe just won a championship because he deferred in key moments. it helps when your teammates are reliable…Kobe is a brilliant player, as is Lebron, but Kobe got the ring this year because he’s the best player on the best team. and before you tell me that the Cavs had a great record and that everyone was saying how good the supporting cast was during the season, realize that I’m not everyone….the NBA championship is about so much more than 1 player….let me ask again in hopes of someday getting an answer…was MJ not the best player in basketball long before he got his first title at 29?

[dougieboyParticipant]

your right… jordan was the best player before he eventually won… Lebron is the best now as was Kobe during the years he put up the likes of 81 and 62(in 3 quarters) but greatness will always be defined by winning championships no matter what the sport. So until Lebron get his ring or rings thats when he can join the elite company. ( elite meaning top 10 NBA players all-time)

[WälseParticipant]

i agree 100%…

[OldSkoolBasketballParticipant]

since when did Ariza become such a great player? He is not the 2nd best player if he was in the Cavs. This dude doesn’t even average 10 points a game and is worse at perimeter and FT shooting than LeBron.

[llperez]

alphamale, you question Kobe’s killer instinct because of some turnovers or missed shots at the end of games, but you are looking at it all wrong. A guy with killer instinct is willing to try and make the big plays and do whatever it takes regardless if that equals success or not. Kobe had more killer instinct then half the league when he was 18 years old and firing up 3 airballs at the end of his rookie season in the playoffs against the Jazz. He looked at Shaq, and EJones, and Van Exel and said give me the ball and get out of my way. How many guys would have kept shooting up all those airballs as a rookie with their season on the line? That’s why us Laker fans have mad respect for Kobe because, win or lose, dude has the balls to put himself in that situation everytime.

Remember Jordan’s last all-star game with Washington when he hit the jumper over Marion with like 2 seconds left to give the east the lead, everyone thought that was the perfect way for Jordan’s last all-star game to end. But Kobe said screw that, they gave him the ball and the west won. End of story.

LeBron could have taken a wide open 10 footer to win one of those games against the Magic, but instead he passed out to Delonte for a 23 footer, and they lost. Kobe had a very similar play in the Finals in game 2 where he could have kicked out to Odom for the game winner, but instead he shot it and got his shot blocked. A lot of people hate on him for that, but personally, I respect him for it.

[bluedevils12Participant]

well said bruh

[WälseParticipant]

so basically what you’re telling me is that you think Kobe has more self confidence than Lebron does…personally i think thats a load of crap….there are a ton of guys in the NBA who are more than willing to take the big shot. and their are quite a few who make them with higher regularity than both Kobe and Lebron. yet Kobe has a reputation as someone who has a “killer instinct”. Kobe is a confident player just like a lot of NBA guys. you’ve let the media convince you that Kobe has “IT” yet you dont have any evidence to support that. the stats say many guys have more “IT” than he does. in fact LBJ has both hit a bigger, more meaningful shot, and had a bigger, more meaningful game than Kobe ever has. that must count for a few points on his “killer instinct”scale. thats gotta be good for some “IT”….btw, J.R. Smith and Sasha Vujocic must lead the league in “killer instinct” because they will shoot the rock anytime, anywhere with no regard for anything. lol

[llperez]

My only point was that you can’t determine “killer instinct” just on performance. Just because you turn it over or miss the big shot does not mean you don’t have killer instinct, like you are suggesting. Killer instinct is having the willingness and confidence to make the big play. And yes, I do feel Kobe has more of that then LeBron, regardless of what your stats say.

Also, I’m curious to hear about these more “meaningful” shots and games that LeBron has had. Kobe has hit game winners in the Finals and in the Olympics. LeBron has not. So whatever “more meaningful” games and shots LeBron has had, I’m curious to hear about. Certainly you can’t compare LeBron torching the Knicks or hitting a game winner in a series he lost to Orlando with making plays that actually help you WIN a championship or a gold medal, could you?

[llperez]

Also, I’ve been a die hard basketball fan for close to 20 years, so I’m beyond just buying into the media hype, so you can quit talking about how the media has convinced me of anything.

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

Stop with this stat shit, no GM or person knowledgeable of basketball interpret stats the way YOU do. It’s ridiculous, at times it makes me wonder if thats all you know?

[bluedevils12Participant]

yea that whole media s*** was getting on my nerves a lil bit

[WälseParticipant]

the bigger shot would be the game-winner against the Magic and the bigger game would be the one where he had the teams last 25 or whatever it was against the Pistons in the Eastern Conf. Finals. whether or not they went on to win the championship does not take away from the magnitude of the shot at that moment. perhaps it will be lost in history as more and more time passes, but that doesnt take away from what that shot and that game meant in that moment. what game winners in the finals has Kobe hit? i dont remember any…i believe you, but i dont remember. i dont remember any Olympic games coming down to a game-winning shot either. if i’m wrong, please straighten me out…..nthegoodlife, you’re always questioning everyone else’s basketball knowledge. The guy who says Devin Harris is the fastest player in the NBA because he has the fastest time in an event that no one else in the world has ever attempted, is questioning my hoop knowledge! i havent forgot. lol…anyway, am i manipulating the stats in some way? i’m just trying to support my candidate. stats may not tell the whole truth, but they certainly dont lie. thats the saying right? lol…how can i mis-interpret shooting percentages anyway? besides i think stats work better in an discussion like this than saying LBJ’s better because i think he’s better…..every single one of us has and will continue to be influenced by media coverage whether we acknowledge it or not….btw, i’m all good with all yalls arguments and i’d agree to disagree, but everytime i come to this page there’s a new LBJ v. Kobe topic and yall know i cant resist & i know you cant either! keep up the good work…

[llperez]

Maybe I was wrong to say Kobe has hit “game winners” in the Finals or OLympics, but I look at big shots over the last 2-3 minutes that help your team win as being essentially game winners. Afterall, they are just as important as shots taken in the last 5 seconds. Kobe hit numerous big shots in the Gold Medal game that helped USA win. He also had 10 points in the last couple minutes against the Pacers in Overtime of the Finals after Shaq fouled out, which were huge in winning the title. Kobe had his best game of the playoffs this year in game 6 against Denver on the road to close out that series which allowed them to go on and win a title. He also hit a buzzer beating 3 against the Pistons in the Finals to send a game to OT which they would win.

Kobe has won 19 games in the Finals alone and 4 rings, so how you can say LeBron has had more “meaningful” shots and games despite having never won a single Finals game is beyond me. I guess we just have different criteria on what the word “meaningful” means. If you want to talk about who had more “spectacular” performances, then I would put Kobe’s 81 ahead of anything LeBron has done.

But I like said way back in the very first reply on this thread, it is debatable. I will go with Kobe and you can go with LeBron. But to say LeBron has had more “meaningful” performances or to suggest that stats prove he is the best, is just innaccurate.

[WälseParticipant]

IMO saying that LBJ has had more meaningful games and shots is 100% accurate. i hate to continue to use MJ as a barometer, but that shot he hit against Cleveland years ago is more meaningful than any shot Kobe has ever hit even though the Bulls didnt win anything that year. Wouldn’t you agree? dont you think Bird’s steal of Isiah’s inbounds pass and feed to D.J. was a bigger play than Kobe’s ever made? Jordan’s 63 in the Garden? none of those players won the championship in those years. do you agree with any of those? if not, then we just have different criteria, like you said, and thats fine. perhaps those plays and players have become bigger as those players cemented their legacies, but that in itself is weird to me. the plays were either big or they weren’t right?…Kobe’s 81 may be more spectacular than anything ANYONE in NBA history has ever done. there’s no debating that….and like you said, its all debatable.

[llperez]

problem is you are talking about great playoff plays by Jordan and Bird, and they combined to win 9 championshhips. Maybe they did’nt win in the years where they made those plays, but the fact that they were proven champions is why those plays are still remembered. How many people still talk about the great games that Barkley or Malone or Ewing had in the playoffs compared to Jordan, BIrd, Magic, Isiah…? If LeBron wins, then it will become more meaningful. As of right now, his great plays don’t equate to winning a championship or dropping 81. Spectacular, yes, but meaningful, no. If LeBron eventually wins a title, then people will remember his heroics. If he does’nt, then do you honestly think people will still be talking about that shot that basically just kept him from swept in 20 years? Highly doubtful.

[llperez]

double

[WälseParticipant]

i alluded to that way when i said how weird it was to me. so you’re saying that if LBJ wins a title or titles 5 years from now, those plays will become more meaningful. dont you see the flaw in that type of thinking? are you telling me that if he gets some rings you’ll be in agreement?….talk about revisionist history…you and i are smart enough to understand the magnitude of a play in that moment. the shot LBJ hit had the entire sports world buzzing like no shot in recent memory…Kobe has never hit a shot of near that magnitude. his 81 was awesome, but most people were not watching that meaningless regular season game against a Raptor team that went on to earn the #1 pick in the following draft. what iconic or potentially iconic play has Kobe made? the oop to Shaq maybe?…it is not about what happens after the play…it’s the play itself….what am i even arguing? Kobe doesn’t have any legendary playoff shots or games to his credit for you to form an argument…i’m like a dog chasing his tail

[llperez]

Kobe has no legenderary playoff games or moments? Just off the top of my head: the OT game against the Pacers I mentioned where he carried his team without Shaq. Shaq himself said that was Kobe’s acsention into superstardom and it was aired on NBA classics the very next day. He hit not one but 2 buzzer beaters against the Suns at the end of regulation and OT to win a playoff game that is still replayed to this day. He dropped 40-8-8 in game one of the Finals against the Magic just a couple weeks ago. He hit a buzzer beating game winner at the foul line against the Suns in 2001 or 2000, I forget, but it helped in leading the Lakers to a title. He had the alley oop to Shaq in game 7 of the western confrence Finals. He scored double digits in the 4th quarter of every western confrence finals game one year against Bowen and the Spurs when they were big rivals. He has 4 championships. But I have no ground to stand on when debating who has done more in the Playoffs? So yeah, I think we could agree to disagree on what a meanigful shot or game is, that is for sure.

[llperez]

They are both great players. Take it from first hand experience of hearing people talk crap about Kobe for the last 7 years, when LeBron does win a title, all the crap people like me and everyone else have talked about him will just make it that much sweeter for LeBron and his fans.

[WälseParticipant]

nice list, but what game on there equals LBJ’s against the Pistons and what shot compares to LBJ’s against the Magic? those are all nice accomplishments but they can’t match what LBJ did in those 2 instances. you’ve got guys like Kenny Smith and Marv Albert saying that game against the Pistons was the most impressive performance they have ever seen. 29 of his teams last 30 against a defensive juggernaut in the Conf. Finals! you know Kobe has never had a game to match it! admit it! everything you cited is great but they dont match up to scoring your teams last 25 points. those buzzer beaters, which i cant even recall except for 1 against the Suns, are nice but they’re not on the level. clearly Kobe has done more in the playoffs, but he cant match Lebron’s biggest game or biggest shot.

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

Seriously bro, stop the hate.

[Lemons4LifeParticipant]

I hate to admit it, but Kobe has proved himself and is a way better player than LeBron…..Then LeBron has been overrated all of his career. So WADE the most deserving of these guys should be the 2nd best player in the league!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LeBron is Andre Iguodala except a better scorer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tuck243Participant]

I can name 2 players on the Lakers that went to an All-Star game. And no #1 draft pick…

Cleveland had 5 former All-stars and 2 Overrall #1 draft picks… On that alone that should tell you that they aren’t bums like every LBJ fan try to say they are… Derek Fisher had ONE good game in the finals, but the WHOLE playoffs he was HORRIBLE… Against Utah, HOUSTON, and Denver… So, since he had ONE good game he’s better than Mo Will? LOL… Its a cop out…

LBJ is missing so much to his game its ridiculous… His freethrow shooting, mid-range game, post game, and man to man defense is worse than AVERAGE, so how can he be mention in the same breath as a ELITE player with no HOLES in his game? Its so DISRESPECTFUL to the game to even call LBJ the best in the league or close to MJ… He’s NO WAY near it… I hear about LBJ out rebounding Kobe, but Kobe is one of the top 2 gaurds EVER to rebound the way he does… Go look at Small Forward… LeBron rebounding isn’t better than LARRY BIRD!!! Larry averaged almost 11 boards a game, and this playing with McChale and Parrish…

And if I hear ONE more person say LeBron makes his teammates better I’ma scream… Larry Hughes before he came to the Cavs average 20 points and 3 steals a game and what he do when he got on the Cavs? Ben Wallace average 10 boards a game and what he do when he got to Cleveland? Wally averaged 15 points a game and what he do when he got to the Cavs? Mo Williams averaged the same amount of points, shooting percentage, and assists he did BEFORE the Cavs. Delonte averaged the same amount of points he did BEFORE the Cavs. So, can someone please tell me HOW LeBron makes his teammates better?

When Kobe’s team takes on other teams dead wieght and make them role players and not give KOBE credit is wrong!!! Shannon Brown? Was a Cav and got to the Lakers and beat FARMAR out for minutes. Ariza was handed to the Lakers because he ONLY average 3 points in 30 games played in Orlando. Luke Walton? Ronnie Turaif left the Lakers and got a huge deal because of his play there.

But you know you guys are right LeBron didn’t have a team. Having everything he needed wasn’t enough. Another scorer in Mo Will, a 2-guard that LOCKED up Hedo until the 4th qaurter when LEBRON switched on him, a 4 man that hustles and provide rebounding, and a center that can hit an open shot and can play on the block… No he didn’t have shooters off the bench in Boobie, Sasha, and Wally. No he didn’t have Qaulity big man off the bench in Joe Smith, Ben Wallace, and J.J. Hickson. He knew what he was getting from those players on a NIGHTLY basis.

Kobe on the other hand had 3 talented players yes… Gasol, Odom, and Bynum. But you didn’t know what you were getting from them ESPECIALLY Odom. I would take Vareojaio before I would take Odom, because at least I know what Ima get. Odom is either a star every 20 games or a bum majority of the time. Never in the middle. Gasol is the SOFTEST big man in the league, and Bynum is a huge cry baby.

LeBron had a team, and I don’t want to hear SH*T else when they lose this year too. Because they have Shaq. No more excuses Cleveland. O. for the person who said Kobe had a terrible 4th qaurter in that game, better go back and see what LeBron did in the 4th qaurters in that Magic series. And he GAVE UP on his team in the last game versus the Magic… Say what you want, but LeBron still have ways to go before he SHOULD be mention in the same breath as Kobe….

[tuck243Participant]

I repeat Alphamale Kobe had 81 points… That game alone is the best game ever… Why? Because his team was down the ENTIRE game, Wilts 100 point game was against a 6’6 player and his team fouled the other team to give Wilt the ball back, Oh and Wilts team was winning by 30… I thought that game versus the Pistons was one of the most dominant games I’VE ever seen, then Kobe had 81 and that blew that game out the water. LeBron “magic” shot only redeemed him from all the shots he gave up, or the SAME game when he had 2 straight turnovers before that play. On top of that he had 1 second left on the clock he had to SHOOT. I was talking to my friend and I asked if LeBron had 10 seconds on the clock would he have took that shot… We both said HELL NAW… LOL… Too say that LeBron played in more meaningful games or had a better career is blasphemy… Kobe played more games in a 2 year spand the ANY NBA PLAYER EVER… Went to the Finals last year, Olympics, and went back to the finals this year and WON… Regular season MVP, Gold medal (which LeBron couldn’t do without Kobe), All-Star game MVP, Finals MVP, and the most important a NBA Championship. Kobe is the reason why half of the superstars in the league this year rose their games to a different level. By playing with him in the Olympics. But HOW DARE ANYONE say LeBron had a more meaningful career than Kobe. LeBron hasn’t had a better career than D-Wade (which should have got MVP this year). People forget how LeBron was GIVEN a team since the first day he step on a NBA floor. Kobe had to go and take it. Shaq was there, Eddie Jones was playing in front of him, and he still was taking the last shots of the playoffs as a rookie on that team. THAT ALONE is more meaningful than what LeBron has EVER done.

[OldSkoolBasketballParticipant]

Who cares MJ is better than both of them put together.

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

You should never speak again!

[HaleParticipant]

Tuck, everyone of the players you said LeBron made worse was on the downside of their career, so sorry you make a terrible point. If you honestly believe that the Cavs would be better with Kboe and the Lakers worse then with LeBron you have no reason to watch basketball ever again. nthegoodlife, you don’t know anything about basketball and that is all the breath I will be wasting on you. Go blazerfan!

The only real good point you made is he has no excuse this year with Shaq. That is very true.

[tuck243Participant]

Thats exactly what Im saying… And it doesn’t matter, a YEAR before they were in a CAVS uniform they averaged that many points and that many rebounds… I don’t care what you say and year doesn’t drop your skills that bad. He had a team been had a team. And I don’t wanna hear that BS on how he improves his teammates when EVERYONE goes there and either decline or stay the same. You can call it bad coaching, but don’t call it “getting old”… Not a year later bro… And for you to back door that and say its NO excuse for Shaq is very contridictive. Shaq is 37 and on the downside of his career too… So what does that say? Its NO excuse for those players to have declining seasons OTHER than LeBron isn’t making his teammates “BETTER” like everyone says he is… And use his team… I could say “IF” Kobe played with KG he woulda got a ring last year…. They built that team AROUND LeBron and been doing so since he stepped foot in Cleveland… If he leaves it shouldn’t be ANY excuses on why he left other than NY is a better city. Because Cleveland did EVERYTHING possible to accommodate him…

[HaleParticipant]

I agreed with you on the Shaq thing, if he doesn’t win with Shaq that he isn’t as good as I think he is now. Idk why you are upset with me agreeing? Shaq is way better then anyone else on that roster so a down year for him is good enough to make the Cavs a lot better. If Cleveland had kept their roster from when LeBron was drafted they would have been a good team (with a lot of headaches though) Boozer, Ricky Davis, Darius Miles and Z.

What do you mean it doesn’t make sense they went down so much? Wally and Ben were clearly not the same players the season before they went to Cleveland as they were earlier in their careers. Maybe less minutes = less stats too…Mo Williams stayed the same like you said, West stayed the same, although personally I think he sucks. Larry Hughes couldn’t adapt styles to play with LeBron he said so himself, so you have one player who got worse with LeBron. Of course they won’t put up better stats though, they will defer to him he is their superstar. It’s arguable if he makes them better, put I think he gets them more motivated to play hard with him and you are so wrong when you said he doesn’t have great vision. He does, much better then Kobe. Kobe is a much much much more talented scorer, no doubt. LeBron is the better guy to build a team around though and he will get the most out of his guys. Like I said, switch teams and Lakers still win it all, Cavs do worse.

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

Seriously? I don’t know anything about basketball. Wow, thanks for informing me. So I guess you believe Jordan is better than Kobe and LeBron put together? I don’t follow, who knows what?

[HaleParticipant]

That was a joke but if you think Kobe or LeBron is close to Jordan at all you are mistaken. It’s not the post where you said blazerfan is stupid that was bad, it was every other one.

[Daprob89Participant]

Lebron is amazing let me get that out the away and could be the best all around player statistically speaking…
The black mamba is the best scorer the game has seen since WILT and i kno thats a big statement and i dont base that on the 81 game but in the history on the nba a player has scored 60 or more in a single 62 times and kobe has 5 which is tied with MIKE and all MIKE’s 5 except for ONE was in overtime or DOUBLE OVERTIME and none of KOBE’s were in overtime and THROW the 81 game in thats makes him the 2nd best REGULATION game scorer in the HISTORY of the league

SO HOW CAN A 23 YR OLD KID WHO HASNT DID ANYTHING BE BETTER THEN A FIRST BALLOT HALL -A- FAMER RITE NOW

[HaleParticipant]

Kobe is not a better scorer then MJ, MJ had Pippen all those years and his team was always good, he didn’t have to shoot 100 times like Kobe did.

[Daprob89Participant]

Okay so im guessing your referring to the 81 game when he had no one on his team
Kobe did just have a 61 point showing recently and he did go on a steak where he had 9 str8 40 point games when he had shaq on his team i remember it like it was yesterday
But when mike did go for 60 three out of the five times PIPPEN wasnt even in the league yet and he had no one

[llperez]

One advantage Jordan holds over Kobe, LeBron, and anybody else whoever enters the conversation is that he did it first, so everyone will be compared to him. When Jordan exploded onto the scene there was no one else doing what he was capale of doing. He was athletic, could score from anywhere on the floor, play defense and he had the competitive spirit. Add in the fact that the league was just really begining to boom in terms of television, endorsements and overall exposure, Jordan came into the scene and really stole the show. The fact that he won 6 titles really stamped his legendary status.

Now when guys come along after Jordan, they have an uphill battle just to gain the same amount of respect as Jordan had regardless if they are equally as talented. The game evolves and now players are more athletic and well rounded, and we have Jordan to thank for a lot of that. He raised the bar for everyone. Unless you are a Laker or Cav fan, some people will never give Kobe or LeBron the respect they gave Jordan regardless of what they do on the court, imo.

[Daprob89Participant]

Okay yea thats true but JORDAN came in the league when he was 21…
Kobe and Lebron came out of highschool MJ could have never did that he said it himself
But abt time KB24 and LBJ was his age they were putting up the same numbers

LOOK IT UP IF YOU THINK IM CRAZY

[llperez]

I’m actually a huge Kobe supporter and think he is the best. But my “comparison” comment was meant to suggest that guys like Kobe and LeBron have to be better then Jordan just to get some people’s respect. It’s not really fair, but that’s the way it is. I watched Jordan play in his prime. He was great. But if he played today, I think he would be equals to Kobe and Lebron, not clearly better like some people would suggest. But this is all just opinion of course since they did’nt play in the same era’s.

[HaleParticipant]

No one will ever be better then Jordan, Kobe doesn’t score 60 in the 80’s once. He would be too busy getting technicals for arguing with the ref about defenders because they were allowed to handcheck.

[llperez]

the 80’s players had to foul more because they were’nt as athletic. Besides, the handcheck rule is overexagerrated on here. Players could have one hand extended, but if your opponent was flat out quicker and had better ball handling, then it would’nt matter much. Have you senn some of the shots Kobe hits when he is hot? Dude could score 60 in the 80’s just as easily as he does now.

Trivia quiz just for fun, who scored the most total points in the 80’s?

[HaleParticipant]

I have no idea. Probably not Jordan because he will drafted mid 80’s, Bird? Abdul-Jabar?

[llperez]

Between 80-89 he played 80+ games every year and his lowest scoring season was 23.8 ppg. I’m a bit of a history buff on NBA

[Daprob89Participant]

Now we just talking crazy yupyup….
80-89???
Well then again we can really say that cuz that wouldnt be the same KOBE different era different game
But yea IIperez22 i do know people will prolly never give those guys the same respect as jordan
Unless one of them gets a 7th ring and a couple more MVP’s but that almost seems impossible at this stage of the game
The nba is all about winning always has been if magic would have won all 9 titles they would have said he was the best ever

But heres a quick stat:

Finals appearances

Jordan 6/6

Kobe 4/6

Lebron 0/1

Magic 5/9

Shaq 4/5

Timmy 4/4

[HaleParticipant]

Yeah Jordan is the best.

[Daprob89Participant]

Yea for now but not for long
Kobe 7/9

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

Actually Jordan has attempted more shots per game than Kobe has. I know, Kobe is still the ball hog though. I know your type, it’s all good.

[HaleParticipant]

My type? I know your type, the person who has a favorite player and believes he is much better then he actually is. Only reason Kobe averaged less shots per game for his career is because he played second fiddle to Shaq all those years and didn’t have enough chances. When Shaq left Kobe took moe shots then Jordan did easy dumba$$. I can’t believe you are that dumb to not think of that. Plus Kobe career fg % .455, MJ is .497. So even taking more shots per season he still was more efficient scorer then your idol Kobe.

[dejuiceboxParticipant]

Im not going to read through every comment, but um how many titles does Lebron have? nuff said

[dejuiceboxParticipant]

um how many titles does Lebron have? enough said

[HaleParticipant]

How many does Kobe have without mass amounts of help? Nuff said.

[Daprob89Participant]

Name one person that won a ring without help

[HaleParticipant]

I’m not saying just help. Massive amounts of help.

[Author]

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