[jjonzParticipant]

For Pip to say Bron could be the best ever is like me saying my grandma could beat Bruce Lee. Could is not a word that has any permanent value on today, or yesterday for that matter. As far as Bron’s comparison to MJ not even close. It all of competitive professional sports there has never been a more complete player than MJ. Skill-Set & Drive is what seperates MJ from everybody. Lebron permantly damaged his legacy when he decided to join one of the Top 5 players in the League. Regardless if the Heat win it all, the sentiment will be Lebron could’nt win without 1 of the top players in the L. IMO SStar should help develop other Stars on their team, not team up with other SStars. Kobe was drafted and develop into a SStar while Shaq was in his prime. Was Grant/Pippen or DRodman one of the Top 5 players when MJ played? Bron teaming with Wade is Like if Bulls signed Barkley to play with MJ.

Kareem’s argument about him and Wilt is not accurate because it is from a different era, Kareem is the leading scorer & Wilt put up some crazy #’s. But neither are close to MJ as far as the Best Ever. Dude avg 37ppg/ was MVP & Defensive player of the Year in the same year, has to many accolades to name.  But the best stat is 6-0.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Kareem-Abdul-Jabbar-8217-s-nasty-open-letter-to?urn=nba-wp4090

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

You’re simply hating on LeBron.. you can’t blame a guy that wanted to win.  Is it LeBron’s fault that the only help they drafted that was supposed to help him were DaJuan Wagner and Luke Jackson?  No, it’s not his fault.  And because Cleveland couldn’t get young players to groom alongside LeBron is supposed to taint LeBron’s legacy?  Again, no.

[joecheck88Participant]

im not hating on lebron for wanting to win but i am gonna use the argument of him joining wade against him when it comes to his place with the all time greats. its really that simple. its great he cares about winning and doesnt mind sacrificing his numbers(scoring wise anyway) but the fact is he joined another top 5 player in the league in his time and it will hurt him in arguments of where he ranks all time.

so again, i applaud lebron for wanting to win but it is a fair argument when u r talking about best of all time.

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

^

So all the times that other greats played with Hall of Famers means nothing?

Jordan played with Pippen and Rodman

Magic played with Kareem and Worthy

Kobe played with Shaq

Duncan played with DRobinson

Bird played with McHale, Parish, and Dennis Johnson

What’s the difference?  The Cavaliers weren’t good at drafting and Cleveland isn’t exactly the place where stars want to go.  So is it really LeBron’s fault?  Or is it where he was drafted?  Or was is the fact that his team drafted two busts before and after LeBron in Wagner and Jackson.  I don’t seem to understand..

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

This post is ridiculous. Michael Jordan is the best, LeBron is awesome and Kareem is amazing and can feel whatever way he wants as an incredible player and the NBA’s All-Time Leading scorer. Until someone passes 38,367, Kareem has that, not to mention the most MVP’s of All-Time. I think people made way to big a deal about his letter and that he was just trying to make people appreciate NBA history a little more than they may.

That being said, Michael Jordan is the best player ever for his combo of individual accomplishment and team accomplishment, but saying it was due to him averaging 37.4 and winning MVP/DPOY are just examples of this, but than it gives even further merit to the Wilt argument. 50.4 and 27.2 in 1961-62. Best individual statistical season ever. Better than any I have seen, better than Oscar’s triple double, which happened in the same year. But, yes, as usual, your post is ridiculously ill informed and bantering garbage. You provide incredibly little evidence for anything, and I really hope it did not take you much time. 

Hope you keep the Bull out of the Heat, if you are still into that kind of thing.

[the I in winParticipant]

It says super stars should develop the stars around them and I agree.  But are you implying that Lebron doesn’t make his teammates better or are you implying that Cleveland had stars that didn’t shine because of Lebron.  MJ didn’t need to leave to play with another super star because the collective talent of his teammates added up to be a super star.  Scottie’s defense was super star level, Rodman’s rebounding was super star level, Steve Kerr’s shooting was super star level.  Who on Cleveland had super star level anything?

[surveParticipant]

This is a TEAM sport people!  I understand where you are coming from if you are looking at this with blinders on, but really, there is no true way to measure athletes who played in different eras.  The game is not the same when MJ played or when Wilt played. 

So Lebron joined a top 5 player and say another top 20 player, does that make the Heat a better team than the 80’s Lakers?  The Heat have a big 3 and everyone else is average or over the hill.  Although Miller and Jones are great role players even they have seen their best days. 

You seem to also forget about guys like Byron Scott who were All-Star calibur players who played on teams with better talent.  Championship form Byron Scott is better than anyone on the Heat team outside of the big 3.

Your argument is incomplete, Lebron teaming up with Wade doesnt automatically equal success.  You guys seem to act as if it only takes 3 people to win a championship.  What about Michael Cooper, Kurt Rambis, AC Green, Ron Harper, Robert Horry, Dennis Johnson, Robert Parish, Kevin McHale, Ron Harper, Toni Kukoc, etc…etc…etc….all these guys had great careers and were somewhat near their primes when they helped win championships.  Who on the Heat has had a great NBA career so far,  I’ll tell you….Ilgauskus, Howard, and Bibby….all past their primes.  The rest of the players?  Guys that are average players with limited experience…like Chalmers, Anthony. 

Worry about what the Heat would be doing if Lebron was not on the team…they would probably not have made it past Boston and most certainly wouldve been beaten by the Bulls.  Plus the Mavs would be the favorite to win.   The Big 3 are good, but ranking them with other teams, player for player, the other 12 guys on the team just dont match up.

[chdieselParticipant]

LeBron took a team that consisted of  Larry Hughes, Ilgauskas, Drew Gooden, Sasha Pavlovic, Donyell Marshall, Anderson Varejao, Daniel Gibson, Damon Jones, Eric Snow, Ira Newble and David Wesley to the NBA finals.  That is the most worthless team, minus LeBron, in the history of the NBA.  He should consider himself lucky to even have got to the Finals with that awful squad.

[Pro-21Participant]

The MVP awards have almost lost some of their meaning over the last few years….Steve Nash won when LBJ and Kobe had their best seasons, and scottie pippen always guarded the opposing team’s best players in the finals. People need to hop off LBJ for a while.

[surveParticipant]

and dont forget about the GM’s that put the talent and personnel together and I like Spoelstra, but having a guy named Riley or Jackson on your bench sure doesnt hurt either.

lemme ask this question…and I want everyone’s honest opinion…had the Bulls not drafted an unknown guy by the name of Scottie Pippen, do you think there would still be 6 rings?  this is not an individual sport, there are so many variables….to me, if you switch teams with Montana and Marino you switch their places in history.   Marino will never be considered better than Montana because of the ring argument.  Montana always had much better teams to help cement his legacy.

[chdieselParticipant]

There’s only one player who has won a Championship without a legit sidekick/HOF player with only role players next to him that comes to mind in the last 20 years…Hakeem Olajuwon. 1994 Finals

[NYCarolinaParticipant]

I guess noone remember when Jordan begged Barkley to play with him on the Wizards.

 

Also, I think Kareem is one of two players to be close to Jordan. I think it’s fair to say I’ll take Kareem over Jordan, only because other then the 1990’s, the NBA’s been a big man’s league, so if you want the best historic big man ever, you can take him.

Also, the only big men to kill Kareem on offense are Moses Malone and Hakeem (who learns his post moves from Malone)

[RUDEBOY_Participant]

Pippen’s comment was Blown Waaaayy out of Proportion..I think what he meant to say was that Lebron makes his teammates better and Jordan was more of an Individual performer…

Jordan’s offensive game was alot more superior than Lebron’s game.. Anyone that really follows the game knows that….While Lebron is the more creative passer,better rebounder and much stronger…

[ghrghrParticipant]

^^ Completely different. The Miami big 3 are in their primes.

Having said that, the game changed a lot over the years. The only things you can compare players of different eras with are their legacies and how dominant they were in their own time. Lebron is the most dominant player in the league considering both sides of the ball right now. If he expands his legacy(win rings as the best player in his team, MVPs) I can see him being in the discussion for all-time best. To me, he is that good.

[jjonzParticipant]

I banter but my post are legit? I’m a very acclomplished young dude, should i take your rebuke personal or just suck it up. Who are you? R U  the Professor of this site? with Novel long thought out responses.  My next Thread will be more thought out with info to back it up.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

So, if that is all that matters, look like score one for Big Shot Rob.

Your argument is incredibly flawed for a number of reasons.

1. How is Kareem’s argument not valid because it was a different era? If anything, Kareem is mentioning that it is incredibly difficult to compare eras, but he also makes the point that there were fewer teams and the league was less diluted. So, your point is, exactly? That their era was somehow worse? That may be, but why is that?
2. You mention Michael’s 37.1, but leave out that Wilt Chamberlain averaged more than that in his first 4 seasons. Not to mention Michael did not win the MVP the season he averaged 37.1 (Wilt did not the season he averaged 50.4, but he averaged the most points and rebounds in an NBA season, records that stand too this day. We can just say it was an oversight.)
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the NBA’s All-Time leading scorer and had a move that in almost everyones mind is the most unstoppable in basketball history. It was called "the Skyhook". Helped him win 6 championships (5 with Magic, but to be fair, Magic never won one without him playing a major role), 6 MVP awards and played 20 NBA seasons. The reason for his longevity, other than his fantastic conditioning, was that his agent had stolen most of his money from early in his playing days. 56% from the field, 72% from the line and 11.6 boards for his career. He also has opinions on things, and in this case I think you have to see things from his point of view. Players saying things hold a lot more weight than prognosticators and analysts, plus Scottie did in fact make a broad and not really well defined explanation. Remind you of anyone? (He started this thread)
4. If you are going to end a debate, you need to actually bring more material and put more thought into the debate. Otherwise, you are just continuing a debate and making it even more ridiculous than it was. I do not understand why certain posters who have the same thing to say as everyone else (which you commonly do) feel the need to start their own posts bringing NOTHING original. Nothing. Just post on someone else’s thread. Your opinion will be heard, and you probably will get more positive reception.
5. Your Superstars should develop Stars theory is INCREDIBLY flawed. I think people just wanted a reason to be pissed off at LeBron when they came up with it, and it is garbage. Did Shaq know that Kobe Bryant was going to become a Superstar? Did Kareem Abdul-Jabbar ask the team not to draft Magic Johnson and get someone "less Superstarry"? Bill Russell probably was super pissed to play with that Cousy guy, why would he want to play with an MVP type player? Probably told Red to ship that Havlicek guy too. Yeah, I am laying it on thick, but my point is, a lot of it comes down to circumstance. Michael Jordan was lucky in so many ways. Larry Bird’s back was destroyed by the late 80’s. Magic lost Kareem, and sad to say, Vlade Divac was not him, and than he left. Still, Michael was way better than anyone else he played against for a ridiculously long time, but circumstance was in his favor as well. Michael Jordan played at a different time than we do now. But, still, was Wilt any less of a player for playing with Elgin Baylor and Jerry West? Man, sucks that there team in 1972 won 33 games in a row, went 69-13 and won a championship. Get it?
6. Accolades are cool and all, but a lot of players have them. Not to mention, back in the day, there were fewer than there are now. No defensive player of the year until 1982-83. Bill Russell’s last Finals was the first time they gave out Finals MVP, and that was also the first time they named All-Defensive teams. I could go on, but I am bored of this. 

My point is, the debate will NEVER be over. It is just a persons personal opinion, and there are people all over the place with different criteria for measuring greatness. Michael Jordan’s career accomplishments crush those of LeBron James, but does that mean that LeBron could not at some period in time been a better individual player? It is entirely possible. We have no idea. We can get angry about someone saying it, which I think is useless and a lot of people did, but they do not know. We can just debate it and let it rage. Opinions are opinions, and until there is a formula for greatness or some way to play all of these players against each other in their primes, than we will keep having people say different players are the greatest. I still think Michael Jordan is indeed the greatest, but am I upset Scottie Pippen said what he did about LeBron James? Absolutely not, because the guy is incredible and it could be true. People just took it as a slight to Michael’s career accomplishment and there dislike of LeBron and what he did rather than look at it from a perspective of LeBron being a fantastic basketball player that you could say such a thing about.

[surveParticipant]

MikeyV is right, this is all a matter of opinion.  You can argue all day if you want.  Jordan inducted Pippen into the HOF.  These guys are friends and shared so many great years together.  Why would he want to slight Jordan?  He played more minutes with the guy that anybody….his opinions just may mean something you know.  He probably knows better than say people like you and I? Dont you think?  So why get so emotional and worked up about it.  Its his opinion, plus I dont think he meant it to say that right now at this very moment Lebron is better than MJ was, but maybe he did….so what?  I grew up watching Mike and at the time I was watching him, I said to myself that if I lived to be 100, I would never see another player that good.  Its the emotional attachment for one, but then its the fact that you are caught in the moment of the era.  Its a different day and a new era and for me to think that I would never see another guy that good…well…lets just say I never thought I would see a Black President in my lifetime either.

[jjonzParticipant]

if i have time will elaborate more on my original post. gotta go feed the children now. btw i visit this site prob once a week so if a thread was made of the said subject i did’nt know about. before i make another thread should i consult you first via email?

[OhCanada-Participant]

Lebrons team is currently struggling to win game 1 at home with 3 of the top 15 players in the league in the starting lineup and you guys compare him to Jordan. Come on guys, they are down by 10! James is having a horrible first half.With that said it would not surprise me the least bit if he scored 20 straight at any point any game anytime, because he is one of the alltime greats, but as far as mentioning him as the alltime great…you guys must be smoking crack. Just because a million people say something doesnt make it true. When I see a LBJ fan say he is the greatest basketball player of all time it is the exact same feeling I get as when I see a Justin Beaver fan say he is the greatest musician of all time.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

You can use that once in a while. I did not realize your visits were weekly. Seems like we could probably see that you do not exactly have a set schedule of coming here. But, if you are going to post on old news, than at least have more to say than what you did, especially if you are trying to end a debate. 

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

You can use that once in a while. I did not realize your visits were weekly. Seems like we could probably see that you do not exactly have a set schedule of coming here. But, if you are going to post on old news, than at least have more to say than what you did, especially if you are trying to end a debate. 

[suddsParticipant]

Let’s not do the MJ vs. Kobe or Lebron Debate ever again. No they are not in Michael’s area code, and that’s it. Both great players, but I would argue other players greatness (Duncan, Hakeem, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Barkley etc) against them before they are ready to go up against THE GREATEST. Anyone old enough to actually watch MJ in his prime, the way he’d take over, score at will, control the tempo, get the ball with two or three guys all over and will his team to victory. We just haven’t seen that consistent dominance from anyone since and most likely (sadly because it would be great) ever see anything like that again.

[OhCanada-Participant]

Miami went on a 9-0 run with Lebron on the bench to end the half tied at 51 and you guys say people have the nerve to say he is the best ever…He has the talent to win as many Championships as Mike…but it will never be done the same way.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

 Of course he will not do it the same way. That may mean he is never seen as a better player than Michael Jordan, may be a jolt to his "legacy", but he is doing things differently and in a different situation. Michael played in the league at a different time, with a different team that was built around him much younger and better than LeBron’s happened to be. So, LeBron will never win like Mike, and you can use that as something to take away from him (everyone will), but does that mean that LeBron might not have been a better player than Michael Jordan? I do not know. You do not know. We can only debate and presume.

If you are going to go by career accomplishment, than LeBron is not in the equation. But, do you have a feeling that Scottie was not going by that? If LeBron had stayed in Cleveland, maybe people might have liked him more, but if Scottie Pippen said the same thing about him, and Cleveland kept losing (which they would have), or even if they acquired another star to help LeBron (he would have needed one) than would people not have been even more pissed off? If you are going to go by career accomplishment, than Michael will always win. Over everyone other than maybe Bill Russell, though people tend to forget about him and say he played with a bunch of Hall of Famers. But, it is difficult to go by eras and to transcend them. If LeBron were drafted by the Bulls in 1984, who knows what the heck would have happened? If Mike went to the Cavs in 2003, does he stay in Cleveland? It is easy to assume things and say that Michael would not have done the same thing as LeBron in his circumstance, but it is not easy to say that Michael Jordan would have beaten LeBron James if they went one on one at a similar age. To me, career accomplishment counts a great deal in ranking players All-Time. So, I have Michael as the best. But, I do not think that someone saying that LeBron might be even better than Michael at a point in time is insane at all, and think that people are reacting the way they are due to a distaste of LeBron James as a person rather than as a player, which I think is ridiculous. 

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

LeBron is a great player and will go down as one of the best to ever do it, but there’s a reason the whole world is mad at him. It’s not just because of the whole tv show.

It’s because he was supposed to be the next Jordan and then surpass him. That’s what we were led to believe ever since he was dubbed the “Chosen One” and “King James”. Ever since we saw Cleveland hang the “We Are Witnesses” banner up. We were supposed to see him grow up right in front of our eyes. Watch him go through tough losses in the playoffs, only to bounce back the next season stronger… Eventually until he got to the top and TOOK whatever he wanted. We were supposed to see him grab the NBA by the throat and have that breakthrough moment.

Instead of doing that… LeBron said he was worried about “getting old, having bad knees and never winning a championship”. There were other teams he could’ve joined and been the unquestioned leader/best player on the team. However, he chose to join another established superstar who played on the wing… A superstar who many consider to be better or just as good as him. A superstar from his own draft class who’d already won a championship and Finals MVP.

It’s just my opinion and people may not like it, but I just feel like LeBron took the easy way out and didn’t live up to who we were led to believe he was. This is just too easy… It’s not even fun to watch to be honest.

[HaleParticipant]

"You mention Michael’s 37.1, but leave out that Wilt Chamberlain averaged more than that in his first 4 seasons. Not to mention Michael did not win the MVP the season he averaged 37.1 (Wilt did not the season he averaged 50.4, but he averaged the most points and rebounds in an NBA season, records that stand too this day. We can just say it was an oversight.)"

I’m sorry but this is ridiculous. A half dozen or so players averaged 30 ppg in 1961-1962 and a 28-18 player wasn’t even a rarity. Wilkins was 2nd in 1987 with 29 ppg. Not to mention Wilt had a few dozen more possessions per game and was one of the extremely rare 7 footers at the time, whereas Jordan probably faced one nearly every game. You can’t compare those 2 seasons whatsoever.

 

[marcusfizer21Participant]

 He has been MJ’s teammate and for him to say LBj is the greatest… It’s damn insane!

Mark Jackson had the quote of the night:

"Hearing Scottie saying that was like my kids saying Jeff Van Gundy is the best dad… Hey, I’ve been good to you!" 

LOL

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