[2quick4u2Participant]

 Hi, first of all i want to say that i’m the user "2quick4u" and that i’ve opened this account just to post this topic as the site’s sistem doesn’t let me post it in my account for using some of the data that i’ll present below from an old post and classify it as "spam"… 

but i really wanted to post it because i think it’s interesting so here it goes..:

I wanted to open this topic (I warn you is long..) because I always hear and read how some people (and also players/coaches/media) rank russell and specially chamberlain as the greatest players of all time, and I can not disagree more…that statment is always based on the same: for chamberlain is all about numbers like his 50 pts season or his 100 points game, and for Russell is all about his titles..

So this post is not only about MJ and about proving he’s the greatest, but also about mythology or better said, about the falling of some myths..

so let’s start..

MJ vs CHAMBERLAIN

Chamberlain is known for his unprecedented numbers but I want to show that even though his stats were impressive, if you analize them you find out they were not all that “impressive”.

1.STATS: 

statistically, chamberlain‘s best seasons were his first five (1959-1964), where he averaged: 41.62 pts and 25.3 rb in…47.28 minutes per game…

yes, that is never mentioned, but wilt is the player that most minutes played in nba history. The 1961-62 season where he averaged 50pts he also averaged 48.5 min/pg! that is a virtue it self because it shows how strong he was but obviously I think it’s not fair to compare his stats with the rest having played those many minutes.

in fact, if you take some of the greatest players stats and you apply them 48.5 min per game(or 47.28) you get some interesting things.

.let’s take a look at michael jordan’s stats and see what happens:

if we take M.J‘s 5 best seasons from 1986 to 1991, this is what we get: 33’94 pts, 6’32 rb and 6’06 ast in 39’32 min pg, if we now apply 47.28 minutes this is the result: 40’81 pts, 7’6 rb and 7’28 ast.

and if we take his best scoring season(1986-87) where he averaged 37.1 pts and put it in 48.5 min we get this: 45 pts pg.

.another way to look at the stats is at 36 min pg, if we do that, we get this: chamberlain: 23.6 pts/18 rb/3.5ast ; michael jordan: 28.3 pts/5.9 rb/4.9 ast.

.pace is another factor to take into consideration and that really changes stats but I’ll talk about it later..

but if you are impressed with chamberlain stats being 7’1 and super athletic, then how impressed should you be with the stats of players that played in the same decade that were a lot shorter and less athletic?

what about unathletic players like bob petit (6’9), who had seasons of 27.9 pts/20.3 rb or 31pts/18.7 in “only” 41 min or jerry lucas (6’8) with seasons of 21.4 pts/20 rb and 21.5 pts/21.1 rb. And what about elgin baylor whom at 6.5 had seasons of 34.8 pts/19.8 rb and 38.3 pts/18.3 rb…

again those “inflated” numbers have to do with pace and with really poor FG% (the league’s average FG% during the 60’s was around 43%..) that allowed players to average a lot of points and a lot of rebounds.

. fact 1: chamberlain did not win the MVP award in any of those 2 seasons where he averaged 50 and 45 pts pg so if back then he wasn’t acclaimed for that, why now that is the main reason to back his greatness??

.fact 2: during those 2 seasons his team lost 80 regular season games..so, was he really that dominant? Was it only because of the Celtics that he didn’t win more championships? Didn’t he play for the lakers for 5 seasons next to jerry west, elgin Baylor and Goodrich and “only” won 1 championship with them?

let’s now talk about another issue: height of players in the 60’s.

2.HEIGHT: 

the truth is that most of the centers he played against were shorter than him, especially in his first 9 seasons where the only other big man in the league were nate Thurmond (6’11) and walt bellamy (6’11) and he would have to wait until 1968-1970 to compete against other big men like karem(7’2), bob lanier (6’11) or tom boerwinkle (7′).

but again, most of the big men were a lot shorter, around 6’8-6’9: b.russell, e.hayes, z.beaty, r.scott, w.reed, r.kerr, j.lucas, b.petit, w.embry or b.rule, and even shorter than that, there were 6’5-6’7 centers like b.bridges, p.silas, t.heinsohn, j.washington, b,howell, w.nauls, w.unseld or g. johnson.

could you imagine how would have been shaquille o’neal’s career if he had been defended by players like that?

let’s talk now about the next issue: pace and rules.

3.PACE&RULES: 

back in the 60’s the pace of the game was a lot faster than today’s, and teams would usually average around 120 points pg. that means you get a lot more chances to score points and to get rebounds.

that’s why centers averaged so many rebounds and even guards did so. and that’s why you had guards like oscar robertson, clif hagan, d. debusschere, tom gola or elgyn baylor that had seasons over 10, 12, 14 and even 19 rebounds pg like baylor.

.talking about inflated numbers, today’s advanced stats show us that chamberlain’s best season in terms of numbers look very different if we adapt them at today’s pace..in fact his 50.4 ppg/25.7 rb season today would “only” amount 37 ppg/19rb again in 48.5 min/pg , that means if we convert MJ best scoring season of 37,1 to the 60’s pace he would also average 50 ppg but Jordan "only" played 40 min pg..if we change jordan’s minutes at 48.5 min pg he would have averaged 60.6ppg !!

.rules back then were not as strict as now and referees would not call as much as today the 3 seconds in the key.

also, the key was shorter than today until 1965. that is a huge advantage for a 7’1 guy..

.In the other hand, rules in the 90’s were a lot different than today’s..back then it was allowed the “hand-checking” and the use of forearms..in 2001 they changed rules and wouldn’t allowed the contact with forearms and in 2004 they would install the hand-checking rule that would totally change the game to an extent that today we have 6’11 players playing like forwards and +7ft centers with no skills at all…

4.CHAMBERLAIN’s 100 point game: 

people always talk about how dominant wilt was because he was able to score 100 points. well I really believe that kobe bryant’s 81 points game was a lot more difficult to achieve.

wilt scored 100 points but his team scored 169 pts!! while kobe scored 81 out of 122…and wilt played 48 minutes while kobe only 42.

If we convert wilt’s 100 points at today’s pace, he would have “only scored” 74 or kobe 109 points at 60’s pace but again in 42 min… if we do the numbers at 48min the equivalent would be 125 points!

and of course not to mention that it is a lot more difficult to score from outside than below the basket…

.every one who saw wilt’s game, historians or even the knicks ‘s coach said that the 4th quarter was just a farce, and his team was trying desperately to get wilt the record, not taking open shots when they had them or fouling quickly the knicks to get the ball and give it to wilt, while kobe’s game was a close game until the last 5 minutes.

Not only that, but those mediocre knicks who had a poor 27-45 record entering the game, were missing their starting center phil Jordon and imhoff had to play instead..but even more, inmhoff only played 20 min due to fouls trouble and it was the rookie buckner (6’9/210 pds/6 round draft) who defended chamberlain most part of the game..

Could you imagine such a picture in the modern era?? Could you imagine Shaquille o’neal being defended by a skinny 6’9 rookie the whole 4th quarter while winning the lakers by 20 and kobe and the rest of the team trying desperately to pass him the ball to score during a whole quarter?? It would be shameful for the name of basketball, fans would boo so hard and would leave the game..

MJ vs RUSSELL

1.COMPLETENESS: 

Bill Russell is one of the best defenders in the history of basketball and probably the smartest one. Shot-blocking became an art and no one has been able to start fast-breaks with rejections like him..

But in the other hand, all the agility, coordination, fluidity and “touch” he had on defense, disappeared when he was on the offensive side.. let’s be clear, bill Russell had no skills or talent at all in terms of offense..he averaged 15 ppg in 42 min with a poor 44% in FG.. wich converted at today’s pace would be 11 ppg..

And it wasn’t that he didn’t score more because his team didn’t needed, it was because he didn’t have the skills..when he had the ball in his hands he wouldn’t even look at the rim..seriously, for those who don’t believe it you just have to watch all the material available on the web..

I’m sorry but to be considered the GOAT you have to be the best on both sides of the floor, if not you can’t be considered the greatest even if you have 11 rings..

If Russell had played in any team not named Celtics, I’m not sure if he’d have many rings..chamberlain who was supposedly the most dominant player, even scoring 50 a game could not win championships..imagine Russell…although it’s true that the Celtics without him would not have won as many…they formed asymbiosis..

2.TITLES: 

Russell’s 11 titles is the statement to crown him the greatest..

but the truth is during the 50’s-60’s there was a league of only 8-12 teams..that is not too much competitionand even more if you add that half of the teams(if not 2/3) were very mediocre..the talent of the league was weak and most of the best players were playing in the same team, that is the Celtics..

MJ “only” won 6 titles but the thing is he retired 2 times at his peak..i think no one doubts that if Jordan didn’t have retired in ’93 the bulls would have won in 94 and 95..i mean he won again 3 consecutives titles from 96 to 98 and 3 before from 91 to 93 so what would be the reason for not winning those 2 years?

But the thing is he retired for the second time after winning the championship so if he had kept playing who says he couldn’t have won another one in 99 in that short season?

The thing is MJ could have had easily 8 titles at least but playing in a much harder competition..the difference between bill Russell and chamberlain with Jordan is that the 2 first were 2 freaks of nature fisically, 2 giants playing among kids while in the other hand Jordan had to play in an era dominated by centers..it’s like if jerry west had won 6 titles playing those years against Russell and chamberlain..

That is never mentioned and usually people says Jordan didn’t face a tough competition compared to others but the truth is Jordan played in the golden era of centers and that is much tougher than any other thing..and even more, he played in an era dominated by muscle and defense but at the same time skilled and that is even more difficult..

Players MJ faced: Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille o’neal, david robinson, Patrick ewing, Alonzo morning, dikembe mutombo, brad Daugherty,sabonis, rik smith ,etc..and PF like barkley, kemp, karl Malone, chris webber,derrick coleman, larry Johnson,etc..all of them playing at their PEAK in the 90’s.

Jordan averaged 30 ppg in a decade where defense was the mantra, contact was allowed and teams averaged between 95-100 ppg instead of the 120 ppg of the 60’s or the 110 ppg of the 80’s…THAT is impressive…

And he still won 6 titles retiring 2 times in the 90’s…I think that is more valuable than the 11 titles of the Celtics back then..

*In conclusion, I firmly believe Michael jordan is the GOAT and is not even close…

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Robb_CParticipant]

So you wrote that long post to preach to the choir? Nobody should doubt for a second MJ not being the hardest dude to ever step on the basketball court.. He was stone cold, the best to ever do it.

[Robb_CParticipant]

So you wrote that long post to preach to the choir? Nobody should doubt for a second MJ not being the hardest dude to ever step on the basketball court.. He was stone cold, the best to ever do it.

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 Yea. I think the more interesting debate would be who is the second best player of all-time. There are a lot of players you could make pretty compelling cases for as the GOAT runner up but right now jordan is pretty much firmly cemented as the GOAT and I don’t see that changing anytime soon.

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 Yea. I think the more interesting debate would be who is the second best player of all-time. There are a lot of players you could make pretty compelling cases for as the GOAT runner up but right now jordan is pretty much firmly cemented as the GOAT and I don’t see that changing anytime soon.

[I am an idiotParticipant]

I always hate this discussion, whether it is the NBA or any other sport. It is so difficult to compare different eras and different positions that it becomes a waste of time.

Jordan clearly dominated his era and is the perfect shooting guard. It is hard to imagine anyone ever playing the position better (as noted, on both sides of the ball). 

That being said, comparing him to two centers from 20 years earlier is an exercize in futility. 

 

 

How about George Mikan as GOAT?

 

 

 

 

  

[I am an idiotParticipant]

I always hate this discussion, whether it is the NBA or any other sport. It is so difficult to compare different eras and different positions that it becomes a waste of time.

Jordan clearly dominated his era and is the perfect shooting guard. It is hard to imagine anyone ever playing the position better (as noted, on both sides of the ball). 

That being said, comparing him to two centers from 20 years earlier is an exercize in futility. 

 

 

How about George Mikan as GOAT?

 

 

 

 

  

[DukeDaSquadParticipant]

 is 3ball on nbadraft.net now?

[DukeDaSquadParticipant]

 is 3ball on nbadraft.net now?

[Jr. ROXASParticipant]

Hey, great effort on your post I gotta give you that. And props also for doing the hard thing these days in crticizing Russel and Wilt. It seems like these days, people on social media just jump all over you when you put either Russel or Wilt out of the top 3. I’m willing to bet majority of these people have not even seen them play live but just go with the norm of "Russel has X rings, he’s the best"!!

 Don’t get me wrong, I still respect them but  don’t know, putting him at no.2 just does not sit right with me. As said before, he had inferior competition and had to play like 8 teams only!! Of course you would have a higher probabilty of winning a ring with that few teams.

On a side note, I see a lot of people putting Olajuwan at the bottom of their top 10. This guy has arguably the most skill level out of the top big men in the hall of fame, has 2 rings and did with with a not so elite supporting cast! Yea he had Drexler, but other than him, who also at that time was aging, he had no other elite players like a Pippen or Worthy as support. Their offense revolved around him, and he carried that team on his back. Coupled with the fact that he racked BOTH steals and blocks on defense. I seriously believe he needs to have consideration to be in the top 5. 

 

  

[Jr. ROXASParticipant]

Hey, great effort on your post I gotta give you that. And props also for doing the hard thing these days in crticizing Russel and Wilt. It seems like these days, people on social media just jump all over you when you put either Russel or Wilt out of the top 3. I’m willing to bet majority of these people have not even seen them play live but just go with the norm of "Russel has X rings, he’s the best"!!

 Don’t get me wrong, I still respect them but  don’t know, putting him at no.2 just does not sit right with me. As said before, he had inferior competition and had to play like 8 teams only!! Of course you would have a higher probabilty of winning a ring with that few teams.

On a side note, I see a lot of people putting Olajuwan at the bottom of their top 10. This guy has arguably the most skill level out of the top big men in the hall of fame, has 2 rings and did with with a not so elite supporting cast! Yea he had Drexler, but other than him, who also at that time was aging, he had no other elite players like a Pippen or Worthy as support. Their offense revolved around him, and he carried that team on his back. Coupled with the fact that he racked BOTH steals and blocks on defense. I seriously believe he needs to have consideration to be in the top 5. 

 

  

[PulseGlazerParticipant]

 Kareem is #2 for me.

[PulseGlazerParticipant]

 Kareem is #2 for me.

[NBAjunkie81Participant]

 but your stats on the time period that Russell & Chamberlain played are completely wrong – there were more 7 footers in the game then then there are now & b/c the League only had 13 teams the Talent level of the Top teams was OFF the charts – for example there were SIX future Hall of Famers on some of the Celtics teams of the 60’s & there were 4 future Hall of Famers on Chamberlian’s 67′ world champion Phila Warriors…

 Each time the NBA expanded is was reflected in the Talent levels of the Top teams of each era. For example, the Celtics, Lakers, Celtics, Pistons & Bulls – the Great teams of the era between 1980 & 1993 all had 3 Hall of Famers… And the Champions of post 1995 era (the last expansion was between 1989 -1995 when the League added 6 teams) usually had Two Hall of Famers / All time greats…

Basicallly my point is that you can argue ANY position you want & I have heard them all… A guy told me No Way is Jordan the Goat b/c he Never won even a Single playoff series w/o both Pippen & Grant/ Rodman… I looked it up & turns out he was wrong Jordan won ONE playoff series w/o Grant or Rodman, the 1994 1st round against Charlotte but Pippen WAS on that team… That was all he needed to disqualify Jordan 7 I must admit I was shocked but once again it’s a TEAM game… The bottom line is that it’s Very difficult to compare era’s & I personally only rank players that I personally witnessed play… In addition, this is a team sport so arguing individual skills is tough enough when the players being debated play at the same time… You can’t look up stats from an era that you personally did Not witness & make conclusions on something you never saw…

We all tend to favor the players that we personally witnessed & that’s fine as long as you understand that we are all biased in some way… Also, we ALL basically have the same 20 guys in the top 20, give or take one or two… I personally started watching the NBA in the early 70’s & I watched Dr. J do things in his prime like average 30+ points AND 10+ rebounds from the sf position that I still have never seen any other player do… For perspective I listen to podcasts of Sonny Hill who has run a famous summer league in Phila since the 50’s or 60’s – he has a radio show on Sunday mornings – he knows All the players who ever played personally & b/c he saw them ALL play & he gives great clarity to the time period that many of us – including you did not see… 

The bottom line is that these guys were SO great that their achievments all stand the test of time… You don;t need to disparage the achievements of players that came before or after your favorite b/c it’s not going to change the minds of the people who disagree anyway… Below are about 30 guys from each decade & I’m sure I missed a few that can be debated but these are basically all the top guys,,, & we all just rearrange the order… Even the guy I mentioned above who did Not think Jordan was the GOAt – I asked "well where do you rank him then & he said oh he’s definitely no lower than #3 on my list.." I laughed b/c it sounded like he was trashing MJ but he Still had him #3 & we all do that & I’m sure you are the same & I def do too…

60’s Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, Baylor, Reed

70’s Walton, Kareem, Dr. J, Cowens

80’s Magic, Bird, Moses, Isaiah, Worthy

90’s Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, Hakeem, Malone

2000’s Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Iverson, Wade, Garnette

2010’s Lebron, Durant, Curry, Westbrook,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NBAjunkie81Participant]

 but your stats on the time period that Russell & Chamberlain played are completely wrong – there were more 7 footers in the game then then there are now & b/c the League only had 13 teams the Talent level of the Top teams was OFF the charts – for example there were SIX future Hall of Famers on some of the Celtics teams of the 60’s & there were 4 future Hall of Famers on Chamberlian’s 67′ world champion Phila Warriors…

 Each time the NBA expanded is was reflected in the Talent levels of the Top teams of each era. For example, the Celtics, Lakers, Celtics, Pistons & Bulls – the Great teams of the era between 1980 & 1993 all had 3 Hall of Famers… And the Champions of post 1995 era (the last expansion was between 1989 -1995 when the League added 6 teams) usually had Two Hall of Famers / All time greats…

Basicallly my point is that you can argue ANY position you want & I have heard them all… A guy told me No Way is Jordan the Goat b/c he Never won even a Single playoff series w/o both Pippen & Grant/ Rodman… I looked it up & turns out he was wrong Jordan won ONE playoff series w/o Grant or Rodman, the 1994 1st round against Charlotte but Pippen WAS on that team… That was all he needed to disqualify Jordan 7 I must admit I was shocked but once again it’s a TEAM game… The bottom line is that it’s Very difficult to compare era’s & I personally only rank players that I personally witnessed play… In addition, this is a team sport so arguing individual skills is tough enough when the players being debated play at the same time… You can’t look up stats from an era that you personally did Not witness & make conclusions on something you never saw…

We all tend to favor the players that we personally witnessed & that’s fine as long as you understand that we are all biased in some way… Also, we ALL basically have the same 20 guys in the top 20, give or take one or two… I personally started watching the NBA in the early 70’s & I watched Dr. J do things in his prime like average 30+ points AND 10+ rebounds from the sf position that I still have never seen any other player do… For perspective I listen to podcasts of Sonny Hill who has run a famous summer league in Phila since the 50’s or 60’s – he has a radio show on Sunday mornings – he knows All the players who ever played personally & b/c he saw them ALL play & he gives great clarity to the time period that many of us – including you did not see… 

The bottom line is that these guys were SO great that their achievments all stand the test of time… You don;t need to disparage the achievements of players that came before or after your favorite b/c it’s not going to change the minds of the people who disagree anyway… Below are about 30 guys from each decade & I’m sure I missed a few that can be debated but these are basically all the top guys,,, & we all just rearrange the order… Even the guy I mentioned above who did Not think Jordan was the GOAt – I asked "well where do you rank him then & he said oh he’s definitely no lower than #3 on my list.." I laughed b/c it sounded like he was trashing MJ but he Still had him #3 & we all do that & I’m sure you are the same & I def do too…

60’s Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, Baylor, Reed

70’s Walton, Kareem, Dr. J, Cowens

80’s Magic, Bird, Moses, Isaiah, Worthy

90’s Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, Hakeem, Malone

2000’s Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Iverson, Wade, Garnette

2010’s Lebron, Durant, Curry, Westbrook,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AnuParticipant]

Not even close???

When a player averages 50ppg & 27rpg for an entire season or when a player wins 11 titles in 13 seasons while averaging 14ppg & 25rpg over a career I’m not sure if that’s an intelligent thing to say.

Also, when people say “if this player played now” it shows a great deal of ignorance. If you are going to put a player from the past in the future, you have to upgrade and equip him with the luxuries and tools just as if he were living in today’s world. There are faaaaar more luxuries that players of today’s game enjoy because of the path that players such as Wilt & Russell have paved, and yes that includes Michael Jordan.

MJ got his style of basketball from David Thompson who was his, and everyone else’s in North Carolina at the time, childhood hero. These were his words and is the reason why he had him speak at his Hall of Fame enshrinement. David Thompson got his style from Dr. J, who got his style from Connie Hawkins, who got his style from Elgin Baylor, who played with Wilt & Russell. When Elgin played he was not considered better than Wilt or Russell soooo what does that say???

How do you think MJ would fair if you threw him back in time and took away the proper taping, training, coaching, type of traveling, nutritionist, technology to help with film study, plentiful amount of gyms to got to, ability to play against great competition that made him a better player (Perkins, Worthy, Scottie, Zeke, Bird, Magic, etc.), ridiculous amounts of open racism, different economical circumstances, etc.??? Hell if you threw MJ back in time, without David, Dr, J, Connie, & Elgin, he wouldn’t even know how to play!!!!!!!!!!

Remember this. Peace (drops mic).

[AnuParticipant]

Not even close???

When a player averages 50ppg & 27rpg for an entire season or when a player wins 11 titles in 13 seasons while averaging 14ppg & 25rpg over a career I’m not sure if that’s an intelligent thing to say.

Also, when people say “if this player played now” it shows a great deal of ignorance. If you are going to put a player from the past in the future, you have to upgrade and equip him with the luxuries and tools just as if he were living in today’s world. There are faaaaar more luxuries that players of today’s game enjoy because of the path that players such as Wilt & Russell have paved, and yes that includes Michael Jordan.

MJ got his style of basketball from David Thompson who was his, and everyone else’s in North Carolina at the time, childhood hero. These were his words and is the reason why he had him speak at his Hall of Fame enshrinement. David Thompson got his style from Dr. J, who got his style from Connie Hawkins, who got his style from Elgin Baylor, who played with Wilt & Russell. When Elgin played he was not considered better than Wilt or Russell soooo what does that say???

How do you think MJ would fair if you threw him back in time and took away the proper taping, training, coaching, type of traveling, nutritionist, technology to help with film study, plentiful amount of gyms to got to, ability to play against great competition that made him a better player (Perkins, Worthy, Scottie, Zeke, Bird, Magic, etc.), ridiculous amounts of open racism, different economical circumstances, etc.??? Hell if you threw MJ back in time, without David, Dr, J, Connie, & Elgin, he wouldn’t even know how to play!!!!!!!!!!

Remember this. Peace (drops mic).

[Author]

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