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BothTeamsPlayedHard 14 years ago.
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- Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 12:18pm #40434

valentineJohn Hollinger of ESPN.com has Dion Waiters ranked as his 4th overall prospect. Bradley Beal is 11 Harrison Barnes is 12 Jeremy Lamb 17 Austin Rivers 19. It is insider so I figured I would pass it along. He agrees with the Dwayne Wade comparison. His draft tracker has been one of the more accurate predictors in the past.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 12:37pm #683366

druneave3Participantwould like to see the rest of that list if Beal is 11? Where was Terrence Ross? Agree with Barnes Lamb Rivers, all bums. If the Bulls rumors are true and they are thinking of trading Deng, his big contract, and #29 to move into top 10 I hope they are targeting Beal, not Barnes. They did meet with Barnes.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 12:46pm #683372

Sewok15ParticipantHow can he have Quincy Miller 6th and Perry Jones III 28th? That right there is perplexing…
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 12:47pm #683373

TRC1991Participanti can’t honestly see why anyone would pick j’covan brown over DJO
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 12:49pm #683378

druneave3ParticipantHow is Ross #27? to have miller, sullinger, henson, and white all before Beal is insane. and get out of here with Draymond Green
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 12:50pm #683370
JrbenzCuse231. Anthony Davis
2. Thomas Robinson
3. Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
4. Dion Waiters
5. Andre Drummond
6. Quincy Miller
7. Jared Sullinger
8. Terrence Jones
9. John Henson
10. Royce White
11. Bradley Beal
12. Harrison Barnes
13. Tony Wroten
14. Kendall Marshall
15. Marquis Teague
16. Draymond Green
17. Jeremy Lamb
18. Damian Lillard
19. Austin Rivers
20. Doron Lamb
21. Furkan Aldemir
22. Will Barton
23. Tyler Zeller
24. Evan Fournier
25. Tyshawn Taylor
26. Meyers Leonard
27. Terrence Ross
28. Perry Jones
29. Festus Ezeli
30. Fab Melo
31. Kostas Sloukas
32. Henry Sims
33. Terrell Stoglin
34. Kostas Papanikolaou
35. Moe Harkless
36. Leon Radosevic
37. JaMychal Green
38. Andrew Nicholson
39. Drew Gordon
40. Garrett Stutz
41. Robert Sacre
42. Arnett Moultrie
43. Elias Harris
44. William Buford
45. Jae Crowder
46. Jared Cunningham
47. Jordan Taylor
48. John Jenkins
49. Orlando Johnson
50. Jeffrey Taylor
51. Quincy Acy
52. Maalik Wayns
53. Tornike Shengelia
54. Scott Machado
55. Mike Scott
56. J’Covan Brown
57. Reggie Hamilton
58. Khris Middleton
59. Tony Mitchell
60. Miles Plumlee0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 12:51pm #683381

druneave3Participantgot it, explains Green. thanks
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 12:56pm #683374
JrbenzCuse23"The other wing everybody is sleeping on is Quincy Millerof Baylor, who put up a strong mark despite coming off an ACL injury. He has more questions marks because of the knee and his bony build, but he is long and can score. The stories of him slipping have me baffled, because he rates as a top-10 pick."
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 12:57pm #683377
JrbenzCuse23These rankings are based off of projected PER…thats Hollinger’s thing
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 1:00pm #683393
TurnipParticipantI normally bet on the opposite of whatever Hollinger says. That method give my predictions a remarkable degree of accuracy.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 1:01pm #683384
JrbenzCuse23His past rankings have been some of, if not the most, accurate predictors of NBA success
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 1:02pm #683386
ppp38ParticipantAnyway you could post the whole article?
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 1:04pm #683390
JrbenzCuse23
Bob Donnan/US PresswireAnthony Davis is at the top of our Draft Rater and it’s not even close.It’s possible that mere moments after David Stern hands off the Larry O’Brien Trophy to Micky Arison or Clay Bennett that he will be in Newark, N.J., announcing that the New Orleans Hornets are on the clock. The Finals are slated to end June 26 (or really, the morning of June 27 if you factor in the ceremony, the interviews, the analysis and all the responsibilities of the players and the league), and the NBA draft is on June 28.
This is why we need to interrupt this riveting NBA Finals for a moment to talk about a bunch of 19-year-olds who have never played a professional game before.
That’s right: It’s Draft Rater time. I’ve developed a tool that analyzes college stats to predict NBA performance and have refined it over the past several years. It’s something we can use to help identify draft steals and busts.
To review, last season was a pretty good one for the Rater. The 2011 pick with the top chance of success (Kyrie Irving) won Rookie of the Year, three other players it rated highly (Kawhi Leonard, Jon Leuer andNikola Vucevic) provided great value for their draft position, and long-time favorite Daniel Green emerged as a starter on the West’s best regular-season team.
Meanwhile, the Rater was down on Jan Vesely, Josh Selby and Jimmer Fredette. The biggest whiff was onMarShon Brooks, whom it rated as a late second-rounder but was a solid late first-round pick by the Nets. The others were players nobody else rated highly either;Isaiah Thomas, for instance, was No. 57 on my board. It was probably too optimistic about Tristan Thompson as well; he had the highest raw rating of any player but struggled at times as a rookie.
I made a few minor tweaks compared to a year ago — most notably, I ditched the "Howland" variable, even though it was statistically significant, because it felt like an "overfit" (fitting the model to past results that may not necessarily be predictive) and I had enough significant variables without it. Otherwise, it’s basically same as it ever was — a giant regression model that gets incrementally smarter as we fill it with more data each year and one that I’ve segmented by position. It’s still less predictive with one-and-done players, whom it sees less of statistically before they turn pro, and it’s not perfect — we’re trying to project what 19-year-olds will be like at 25, a profoundly inexact science.
Nonetheless, let’s zoom back out to the big picture and go through the results from this year’s Draft Rater, because I think you’ll see that a few points remain paramount.
1. Anthony Davis is obviously the best player
Good thing we came up with this neat model, because I don’t know how we could have discerned this information otherwise. Yes, this is a one-star draft. Davis blew up my Draft Rater, as expected, but just as notable is the huge gap between him and the next place on the list.
Davis rates several points ahead of every other player on the board. In fact, the difference between Davis and the No. 2-rated player, Jared Sullinger, is greater than the gap between Sullinger and No. 16 Bradley Beal. And Sullinger’s rating comes with asterisks that don’t afflict Davis.
2. Remember, we’re projecting PER
This gets extremely important when you look at the next few players that Draft Rater highlights and when you look back at some of the players Draft Rater has fawned over mistakenly in recent seasons. In each, you’ll notice a huge propensity toward defensively lacking power forwards — players like Michael Beasley, Charlie Villanueva and Tyrus Thomas, who had some of the best marks in recent seasons.
That’s not a failure of Draft Rater as much as a failure of what I’ve asked it to do: project NBA PER from college stats. It did that; Beasley, Villanueva and Thomas all have excellent career PER marks. They just aren’t very good in spite of those numbers due to their defensive shortcomings and questions about their fit in the team concept.
So let’s take a closer look at two relatively short, stocky power forwards who are among the next names on the list: Sullinger and Draymond Green. Will these guys put up numbers? Very likely. Will they be able to guard their position? That is a much more open question and why they won’t go as highly as Draft Rater places them. Green, in particular, is a massive defensive question mark.
This applies to a lesser extent to the next several players. Terrence Jones and Royce White, who also has anxiety issues that may affect his draft position, are much more offensive players who are an inch short for the power forward spot, and Furkan Aldemir of Turkey — who rates as a mid-first-rounder although he probably won’t be taken until the middle of the second round — has defensive shortcomings too.
At least that makes it easy to pick out the second-best big man this year: Thomas Robinson of Kansas, who has no such defensive shortcomings and should be able to score effectively with his athleticism around the rim.
Also warranting looks later in the lottery are two project-level bigs with more upside, especially at the defensive end: Andre Drummond and John Henson. Henson has a slightly higher rating, but as a 7-foot center, Drummond is virtually certain to be the higher pick.
Finally, a sleeper among bigs is Henry Sims of Georgetown. He is not a great athlete and will struggle defensively, but he is a high skill guy who could be a second-round steal.
Bigs: The Best
Name College/Country Rating Anthony Davis Kentucky 22.23 Jared Sullinger Ohio State 16.86 Thomas Robinson Kansas 15.20 Draymond Green Michigan State 14.84 Terrence Jones Kentucky 14.28 Royce White Iowa State 14.07 Furkan Aldemir Turkey 12.87 John Henson North Carolina 12.11 Andre Drummond Connecticut 12.05 Henry Sims Georgetown 10.38 3. High-rated wings usually deliver
As I noted with Leonard a year ago, wing players — especially bigger ones — with strong Draft Rater marks virtually never fail. Of the eight players to rate above 13 in the past decade, the worst among them was Josh Childress. Five of the players have played in an All-Star Game, and Rudy Gay may play in an All-Star Game soon. The seventh player is Leonard.
This year, we have two names to add to that list: Dion Waiters and Michael Kidd-Gilchrist. Kidd-Gilchrist is probably the safest pick on the board — a big wing who plays defense, has strong stats and comes with no character questions. From a risk-aversion perspective alone he should be a top-five pick; I have him third on my board after Robinson. (See below for how I would rank the prospects, regardless of their Draft Rater numbers.)
I have Waiters fourth for similar reasons. His size, 6-foot-4, is more of a concern, but whatever team made him a promise did a wise thing. Waiters projects as the best small wing since Dwyane Wade, and he’d be a steal if somebody got him in the Nos. 8-10 range currently being discussed.
The other wing everybody is sleeping on is Quincy Millerof Baylor, who put up a strong mark despite coming off an ACL injury. He has more questions marks because of the knee and his bony build, but he is long and can score. The stories of him slipping have me baffled, because he rates as a top-10 pick.
Two other wings who will be drafted highly don’t rate as strongly: Beal and Harrison Barnes. Most players in their range turn out to be solid, but this part of the pool doesn’t produce many stars. I’d be more comfortable taking these two in the later part of the lottery.
Doronand Jeremy Lamb added to the perpetual confusion between the two by posting virtually the same rating, although this may be the only one that had Doron rated higher. Jeremy is likely to go 15 picks sooner given his higher ceiling, but Doron could be a great pickup in the late first or early second round as a Courtney Lee clone who hits 3s and defends.
The other wing worth a first-round look is Memphis’ Will Barton, whom most have slotted as a second-rounder and who rates as a nice sleeper.
Perimeter Players: The Best
Name College/Country Rating Dion Waiters Syracuse 14.12 Kendall Marshall North Carolina 13.84 Michael Kidd-Gilchrist Kentucky 13.58 Marquis Teague Kentucky 13.18 Quincy Miller Baylor 12.94 Tony Wroten Washington 12.21 Bradley Beal Florida 11.65 Kostas Sloukas Greece 11.51 Harrison Barnes North Carolina 11.11 Will Barton Memphis 10.90 Doron Lamb Kentucky 10.65 Jeremy Lamb Connecticut 10.50 4. The point guard conundrum
Point guard is the hardest position to draft because so much depends on improvement once the player turns pro. Unless it’s an overwhelming talent such as Chris Paul or Irving, the smarter play is usually to draft this position late and hope for the best.
This year, several point guards rate as first-round talents, and there is little to separate them. North Carolina’s Kendall Marshall is the highest rated of the bunch and the safest pick, but he offers the least upside. Often compared to Mark Jackson because of his size, acumen and lack of athleticism, he is a solid mid-first-round pick. A poor man’s version of Marshall might be Kostas Sloukas of Greece, who has solid translated Euroleague stats but will be a late second-rounder if he’s drafted at all because of his questionable athleticism.
On the other hand, Marquis Teague of Kentucky and Tony Wroten of Washington have talent to spare and star upside. The question is whether each can harness it. Teague was plagued by turnovers, especially early in the year, but he is an athletic scoring point guard in the mold of his older brother, the Atlanta Hawks‘ Jeff Teague. Wroten, meanwhile, is enormous for a point guard (6-6) and can really see the floor, but he can’t shoot and has lots of character questions.
Among Marshall, Wroten and Teague, it really is dealer’s choice as to how much risk you’re willing to take on for the reward. By the mid-first round I start liking Wroten’s star potential quite a bit, but others may wish to play it more safely.
5. The rest of the bigs
In the tail end of the first round and throughout the second, we’re sorting through several big men with fairly weak Draft Rater résumés. The Rater is a particularly harsh judge at the center position, where it frowns on the prospects of four centers with first-round aspirations — Tyler Zeller, Meyers Leonard, Fab Melo and Festus Ezeli — and flat-out mocks Miles Plumlee, who is off-the-charts bad with a 2.49 Draft Rater projection.
Plumlee aside, the other four are probably worthy of late first-round picks despite any misgivings, simply because size is such a rare commodity. Even if they can become just decent backup centers, taking them low in the first round makes sense. Two other 7-footers, Garrett Stutzof Wichita State and Robert Sacre of Gonzaga, shape up as solid second-rounders if we apply similar reasoning.
At the power forward spot, Perry Jones III is rated several notches lower than most, while two other likely first-rounders, Andrew Nicholson and Arnett Moultrie, rate as second-round picks. Also of note is Croatian forward Leon Radosevic as a decent second-round value play.
Bigs: The Rest
Name College/Country Rating Perry Jones III Baylor 8.77 Leon Radosevic Croatia 8.77 JaMychal Green Alabama 8.73 Drew Gordon New Mexico 8.39 Tyler Zeller North Carolina 8.23 Andrew Nicholson St. Bonaventure 8.22 Quincy Acy Baylor 8.16 Fab Melo Syracuse 7.73 Garrett Stutz Wichita State 7.68 Mike Scott Virginia 7.50 Robert Sacre Gonzaga 7.37 Cameron Moore UAB 7.03 Meyers Leonard Illinois 7.02 Mitchell Watt Buffalo 6.77 Festus Ezeli Vanderbilt 6.54 Arnett Moultrie Mississippi State 6.42 6. Potential perimeter busts
One player that Draft Rater isn’t crazy about is Damian Lillard of Weber State, who compiled strong numbers but did so against a weak schedule and is much older than most of the prospects at his position. He not only failed to outrank the top point guards above but also rates behind the less-heralded Tyshawn Taylor of Kansas. No. 6 clearly seems a stretch for Lillard, who looks more like a mid-to-late first-rounder in this analysis.
On the wings, a few potential first-rounders also fare poorly. Moe Harkless of St. John’s had one of the worst ratings of any first-round prospect. While the error rate on one-and-done players has been higher, the difference between Harkless and the other lottery candidates is well outside the standard error of the Rater.
In addition to Harkless, first-round prospects John Jenkins and Jeffery Taylor of Vanderbilt fared poorly. Another first-round prospect from overseas, Evan Fournier of France, didn’t play in the Euroleague this year and thus has no projection. Subjectively, I’m not sold on him — he’s basically a slashing scorer who isn’t athletic enough to score that way in the NBA — but he at least has the benefit of being only 19.
One player gathering momentum is Kostas Papanikolaou of Greece, who shapes up as a solid second-round stash pick. Two other wing prospects — Austin Rivers andTerrence Ross — shape up about where we’d expect as mid-to-late first rounders, but after those two, the pool thins out quickly.
A final sleeper to watch is Maryland point guard Terrell Stoglin, another guy who would make a great second-rounder.
Perimeter Players: The Rest
Name College/Country Rating Tyshawn Taylor Kansas 10.19 Austin Rivers Duke 9.85 Terrell Stoglin Maryland 9.82 Damian Lillard Weber State 9.75 Kostas Papanikolaou Greece 9.26 Terrence Ross Washington 9.12 William Buford Ohio State 8.58 J’Covan Brown Texas 8.49 Jordan Taylor Wisconsin 8.19 Reggie Hamilton Oakland 8.18 Maalik Wayns Villanova 8.02 Hollis Thompson Georgetown 8.01 Tony Mitchell Alabama 7.91 Jae Crowder Marquette 7.90 Jared Cunningham Oregon State 7.76 John Jenkins Vanderbilt 7.76 Khris Middleton Texas A&M 7.68 Scott Machado Iona 7.57 Tornike Shengelia Republic of Georgia 7.33 Moe Harkless St. John’s 7.15 Tu Holloway Xavier 7.14 Orlando Johnson UC Santa Barbara 7.11 Darius Miller Kentucky 6.65 Jeffery Taylor Vanderbilt 6.59 7. Making my board
Knowing everything we know, here is how my board looks heading into draft day. This is taking into account everything from the Draft Rater as well as what we know about the players’ red flags, defensive pluses and minuses and one or two subjective calls:
1. Anthony Davis
2. Thomas Robinson
3. Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
4. Dion Waiters
5. Andre Drummond
6. Quincy Miller
7. Jared Sullinger
8. Terrence Jones
9. John Henson
10. Royce White
11. Bradley Beal
12. Harrison Barnes
13. Tony Wroten
14. Kendall Marshall
15. Marquis Teague
16. Draymond Green
17. Jeremy Lamb
18. Damian Lillard
19. Austin Rivers
20. Doron Lamb
21. Furkan Aldemir
22. Will Barton
23. Tyler Zeller
24. Evan Fournier
25. Tyshawn Taylor
26. Meyers Leonard
27. Terrence Ross
28. Perry Jones
29. Festus Ezeli
30. Fab Melo
31. Kostas Sloukas
32. Henry Sims
33. Terrell Stoglin
34. Kostas Papanikolaou
35. Moe Harkless
36. Leon Radosevic
37. JaMychal Green
38. Andrew Nicholson
39. Drew Gordon
40. Garrett Stutz
41. Robert Sacre
42. Arnett Moultrie
43. Elias Harris
43. William Buford
44. Jae Crowder
45. Jared Cunningham
46. Jordan Taylor
47. John Jenkins
48. Orlando Johnson
49. Jeffrey Taylor
50. Tomas Satoransky
51. Quincy Acy
52. Maalik Wayns
53. Tornike Shengelia
54. Scott Machado
55. Mike Scott
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 1:11pm #683394
JrbenzCuse23Except for the fact that the evidence doesn’t support you Turnip lol but you are anti stats i understand
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 1:13pm #683399

GrandmamaParticipantHow did I know this post was going to be highlighting Dion Waiters?
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 1:17pm #683402
JrbenzCuse23Just backing up what I’ve been saying. Don’t hate.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 1:19pm #683406
TurnipParticipantI like stats as much or more than anyone, but there’s a difference between stats and made up numbers.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 1:24pm #683409

TallmanNYCParticipantEven Hollinger admits that PER looks mainly at offense. It also overvalues volume shooters a bit. It penalizes you for misses, but not enough or all that much. So scores will get a higher PER in general than they will really help their team win (which for most players is about taking good high percentage shots).
But we should keep this list in mind on draft day and see how it does. I can’t believe that Perry Jones is going to drop that far, but let’s see.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 1:33pm #683415

Sewok15ParticipantPER is a fairly accurate way to judge players but it does not take many things into consideration. Some things your eyes tell you that #’s cannot. You cannot put too much stock into any one aspect of scouting a player.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 1:36pm #683413
JrbenzCuse23This isn’t how he thinks the draft will go. It is his predictor of NBA success, give or take
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 1:37pm #683414
JrbenzCuse23Turnip- PER is WIDELY accepted in the basketball community. No coincidence that the top NBA players consistently top his PER rankings. Its similar to sabermetrics in baseball, some people don’t buy into it I understand.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 1:52pm #683423

ChrisCrossParticipantWaiters reminds of Randy Foye, undersized SG that is a slasher, bulky.
Foye had a lot of build coming out of Villanova as a tough firey player, that didn’t put up big numbers like he "could" have because he played in a certain role.
I think Waiters was perfect in his role at Syracuse, and was there best player, but unless he goes to a team where he can be 6th man who comes off the bench is a go to scorer, I don’t see him being any more than a Randy Foye. At best Waiters is a 6th man of the year, not a bad thing, but he could end up like Randy Foye.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 2:25pm #683445

BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant“His draft tracker has been one of the more accurate predictors in the past.”
2008
Player Projected PER Order Picked Among Collegians
Kevin Love 14.62 5
Michael Beasley 14.32 2
Joe Alexander 13.48 8
Mario Chalmers 13.01 29
George Hill 12.77 23
Chris Douglas-Roberts 12.46 33
Derrick Rose 12.36 1
Roy Hibbert 12.30 17
Darrell Arthur 12.17 24
Ryan Anderson 12.14 20
Marreese Speights 12.11 16
Darnell Jackson 12.11 422009
Top 12 rated collegians for 2009
Player School Draft Rater
1. Ty Lawson North Carolina 16.34
2. Blake Griffin Oklahoma 16.21
3. Tyreke Evans Memphis 15.02
4. Austin Daye Gonzaga 14.24
5. Stephen Curry Davidson 14.18
6. Nick Calathes Florida 13.66
7. DeJuan Blair Pittsburgh 13.56
8. Danny Green North Carolina 13.28
9. Jonny Flynn Syracuse 12.99
10. James Harden Arizona State 12.97
11. Hasheem Thabeet Connecticut 12.90
12. Earl Clark Louisville 12.882010
1. Demarcus Cousins, 16.14
2. Evan Turner, 14.79
3. John Wall, 14.68
4. Greg Monroe, 14.39
5. Derrick Favors, 13.98
6. Xavier Henry 13.52
7. Luke Babbitt 13.35
8. Al-Farouq Aminu 13.30
9. Wes Johnson 13.03
10. Greivis Vasquez 12.97
11. Sylven Landesberg 12.52
12. Omar Samhan 12.472011
1. Kyrie Irving
2. Derrick Williams
3. Tristan Thompson
4. Jonas Valuncianas
5. Kawhi Leonard
6. Enes Kanter
7. Kemba Walker
8. Tobias Harris
9. Alec Burks
10. Jordan Hamilton
11. Bismack Biyombo
12. Brandon Knight
13. Tyler Honeycutt
14. Jon Leuer
15. Nikola Vucevic
16. Chris Singleton
17. Jan Vesely
18. Klay Thompson
19. Norris Cole
20. Iman Shumpert
21. Nikola Mirotic
22. Jimmer Fredette
23. Donatas Motiejunas
24. Greg Smith
25. Marcus Morris
26. JaJuan Johnson
27. Markieff Morris
28. Davis Bertans
29. Kenneth Faried
30. Jeremy TylerHow is that one of the most accurate predictors?
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 2:42pm #683461
JrbenzCuse23Umm those look pretty good to me compares to the mocks from those years?
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 2:43pm #683463
JrbenzCuse23I forgot all u know more than nba gm’s and espn analysts. L O L
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 2:49pm #683470

invalidParticipantBTPH . that seems pretty accurate compared to others mocks. its almost impossible to get the perfect predictions but that is better again compared to other reads
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 3:14pm #683482

chocboywndrParticipantStats in basketball very rarely are able to predict success in basketball. Baseball is a game that uses numbers in a fashion that allows them to be able to make better decisions a la the movie moneyball. There are far to many intangibles equate for success in basketball.
.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 3:14pm #683483

chocboywndrParticipantStats in basketball very rarely are able to predict success in basketball. Baseball is a game that uses numbers in a fashion that allows them to be able to make better decisions a la the movie moneyball. There are far to many intangibles equate for success in basketball.
.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/18/2012 - 11:16pm #683638
johnecoParticipantI always enjoy reading Hollinger’s draft analysis. At the very least, it is a fresh and different perspective compared to the prevailing "wisdom" of mock drafts, which tend to follow the herd. And it does at least as well as most of them IMO.
I agree totally that Quincy Miller, Marquis Teague, Doron Lamb, and Tyshawn Taylor are being underrated by almost all mocks. I wish my team had a pick high enough that I could hope we snag one of those players…
0 - Posted on: Tue, 06/19/2012 - 12:41am #683641

DanEboyParticipantThis guy stands by a system of success that had Joe Alexander projecting to be more efficient than Derrick Rose. How can you actually publish something like that, let alone believe in it.
0- Posted on: Tue, 06/19/2012 - 12:57am #683643
crows2ParticipantI’m usually a fan of Hollinger, but I don’t like his list this year. I reckon I could come up with a top 10 which will outperform his top 10 in the NBA:
1. Anthony Davis
2. Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
3. Andre Drummond
4. Brad Beal
5. Thomas Robinson
6. Harrison Barnes
7. Jeremy Lamb
8. Jared Sullinger
9. Austin Rivers
10. Kendall Marshall
0
- Posted on: Tue, 06/19/2012 - 1:42am #683648
JrbenzCuse23That is an outlier. And everybody loved Alexander. Overall he finds value and had continually found value where others havent. I.e. kevin love, ty lawson, kawhi leonard, george hill, dejuan blair etc.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 06/19/2012 - 2:22am #683653
Andrew1984ParticipantOutliers are exceptions. When there’s a lot of them, you can’t call them outliers.
Joe Alexander, Chris Douglas-Roberts, Darnell Jackson, Austin Daye, Hasheem Thabeet, Xavier Henry, Luke Babbit, Aminu, Wes Johnson, Slyven Landesberg, Omar Samhan, Tobias Harris, Tyler Honeycutt.
I’m not saying Hollinger’s system isn’t good, I’m saying there isn’t a good system. That’s what makes this fun; the fact that it truly is a guessing game for everybody because nobody can predict the future, and some shlub on his couch who can’t make two free throws out of 10 can have "hunch" about a guy who every GM in the NBA ignores, and vice versa.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 06/19/2012 - 2:59am #683676
PulseGlazerParticipantLook at the actual top 10s for those years. There are just as many busts. Also, try reading the article, not just looking at rankings. He acknowledges the flaws in his system and what he thinks of each area. Joe Alexander looked like a BEAST coming out and the system has trouble with 1s (which again, if you read, is acknowledged). It’s another tool to rank players and helps identify some overlooked studs (and validates me this year on both Waiters and Q Miller!), so why is this a bad thing?
0 - Posted on: Tue, 06/19/2012 - 5:03am #683732

BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant"BTPH . that seems pretty accurate compared to others mocks. its almost impossible to get the perfect predictions but that is better again compared to other reads"
"I always enjoy reading Hollinger’s draft analysis. At the very least, it is a fresh and different perspective compared to the prevailing "wisdom" of mock drafts, which tend to follow the herd. And it does at least as well as most of them IMO.
"Look at the actual top 10s for those years. There are just as many busts."
In 2008, three of his top ten are out of the NBA. Of the actual top ten in the 2008 Draft, all of one is out of the NBA. While one can look at him "hitting" on George Hill and Mario Chalmers, his exclusion of Russell Westbrook, Brook Lopez, and Eric Gordon cannot be dismissed. These were top ten picks that teams got right.
In 2009, all of the top ten are still in the NBA, but three guys (Thabeet, Flynn, and Hill) had their fourth year option declined. Of Hollinger’s top ten (who have played in the NBA so I am excluding Nick Calathes) he had two of the three "misses" and slipped in Ty Lawson, Danny Green, Austin Daye, and DeJuan Blair in the place of Ricky Rubio, DeMar DeRozan, Brandon Jennings, and Jordan Hill.
In 2010, two of his top twelve have never played an NBA minute. Omar Samhan has not so much as found success in any professional capacity. Sylven Landesberg has played well in Israel for two years, but Landesberg didn’t impress enough teams in his 2010 Summer League to avoid going there. In addition to those two, he basically swapped in Luke Babbitt and Greivis Vasquez in for Ekpe Udoh, Gordon Hayward, Paul George, and Cole Aldrich.
Last year, (as with Calathes let’s take out Valanciunas) the difference between Hollinger and the actual draft was Kawhi Leonard, Alec Burks, Tobias Harris, and Jordan Hamilton in the place of Jan Vesely, Brandon Knight, Jimmer Fredette, and Klay Thompson.
I don’t see any way in which someone can look at that record as a whole (and not single out parts like he did in his first paragraph) and say he fared any better. If you enjoy reading it, that is fine. If you like the fact that he is high on Dion Waiters and Quincy Miller that is fine as well. My only quibble is that whether a person likes or dislikes he writes does not make the history of his rating any more or less accurate.
Last year, the guy included a "Howland" variable to prop up Malcolm Lee and Tyler Honeycutt because… why exactly? Because when UCLA was going to Final Fours and competing for titles they had an abundance of talent, and somehow he thought that the talent was still there despite UCLA no longer being good? Please.
"That is an outlier. And everybody loved Alexander. Overall he finds value and had continually found value where others havent. I.e. kevin love, ty lawson, kawhi leonard, george hill, dejuan blair etc."
Kevin Love went fifth and isn’t the best player from his draft class. Ty Lawson went 18th hasn’t been the best in his draft class. Kawhi Leonard and George Hill are complementary pieces. DeJuan Blair is a backup and was ended up being drafted in a spot for backup prospects. He is a guy who can put up numbers on a bad team that needs stat filling, but on a winner he is a guy not some hidden value. Look at who went in the top ten and was left out of his rankings for those guys to make it in. I like George Hill, but I like Russell Westbrook more. Call me crazy on that one. The league got that one right. Kawhi Leonard is a nice player, but he went to the Spurs. Klay Thompson went to the Warriors and Brandon Knight went to the Pistons. I don’t know anybody who didn’t like Kawhi Leonard once it became known he was going to San Antonio. If Harrison Barnes goes to the Bulls, everyone should love him too, though that should not make it so that scouts/people/analysts question whether he can be a main piece in trying to turn around the Bobcats.
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