[valentine]

I hear this phrase all the time…but to be honest I reckon its mostly BS.

Name a player, and I’ll tell you what positions they can play. 

Some players can play 2 or 3 positions. Some are so good they can play 4 or 5. But these are rare cases of extremely versatile, star players and is nothing new. 

Is Tristan Thompson performing traditional guard duties? Can Klay Thompson slide into the centre position?

I believe its a buzzword that is misleasing.

What they really mean is that they want good defenders who can switch and not get abused in a mismatch. Even on GSW, how many guys can do this? Green and Iggy maybe. Newsflash: every team would kill for these guys cos theyre so rare.

And on offense, teams play according to their system and it almost always has responsibilities based on traditional physical attributes. Big guys set screens and fight for rebounds. Quick little guys run around screens, handle the ball and shoot more from 3. 

Find me a valid arguement for positionless basketball that doesnt isolate one of the rare exceptions of ultra versatile players like Lebron, Green or Simmons. 

In fact, I cant think of a single player entering this draft that could be described as ‘Positionless’…yet we’re constantly told this is the direction the NBA is going.

I’ll agree that positionless basketball would be a symphony, but its not like that in reality and isn’t any closer than it has ever been with the slight exception of a leniency towards stretch 4’s.

 

[dudo670Participant]

 No it’s not becoming positionsless. Just like big men are not a "dying breed." To stick with the big men thing, the problem is that most of the centers in the NBA are either old, suck, or are named Anthony Davis, Karl Towns, and possibly Joel Embiid. At the end of the day, the name of the game has been, is, and always will be "jimmy’s and joe’s over X’s and O’s." the Warriors aren’t winning because of scheme, they’re winning because they’ve got 3 all stars including the back to back MVP and a terrific supporting group. Curry and Thompson could be the top guy on many different teams and instantly increase said team’s win total by 10 games. Just because you bring in a bunch of Kyle Korver’s and Andre Iguodalas so that your team can shoot pass and defend doesn’t mean you’ll be good. Name of the game is get the best players.

[dudo670Participant]

 No it’s not becoming positionsless. Just like big men are not a "dying breed." To stick with the big men thing, the problem is that most of the centers in the NBA are either old, suck, or are named Anthony Davis, Karl Towns, and possibly Joel Embiid. At the end of the day, the name of the game has been, is, and always will be "jimmy’s and joe’s over X’s and O’s." the Warriors aren’t winning because of scheme, they’re winning because they’ve got 3 all stars including the back to back MVP and a terrific supporting group. Curry and Thompson could be the top guy on many different teams and instantly increase said team’s win total by 10 games. Just because you bring in a bunch of Kyle Korver’s and Andre Iguodalas so that your team can shoot pass and defend doesn’t mean you’ll be good. Name of the game is get the best players.

[dremill24Participant]

 You’re right..but you see how many words it took to to explain it? Positionless is just what they call it

[dremill24Participant]

 You’re right..but you see how many words it took to to explain it? Positionless is just what they call it

[trelos6Participant]

to be positionless for a whole game, that would take Magic, Lebron (maybe), or Giannis/KD. 

You need to be able to handle the ball as a PG, but also run the wings and post up. On top of that, you have to DEFEND your position. 

Lots of people can play possitionless for a few possessions. Look at the Warriors. Livingston, Klay, Iggy, Barnes and Dray are all 6’7"-6’8" guys who can switch everything and thrive. But if they do that for a whoke game, and their opposition C isn’t a scrub, they will be abused in the paint. 

[trelos6Participant]

to be positionless for a whole game, that would take Magic, Lebron (maybe), or Giannis/KD. 

You need to be able to handle the ball as a PG, but also run the wings and post up. On top of that, you have to DEFEND your position. 

Lots of people can play possitionless for a few possessions. Look at the Warriors. Livingston, Klay, Iggy, Barnes and Dray are all 6’7"-6’8" guys who can switch everything and thrive. But if they do that for a whoke game, and their opposition C isn’t a scrub, they will be abused in the paint. 

[Reptilian MonkParticipant]

No it is not. Give me a Prime Kareem at Center, and try and have a 6’8 Draymond guard him. Kareem scores all day or draws double/triple teams for wide open 3’s

[benny15Participant]

 okay, but doesnt a prime kareem at center scores all day on any name we think of? bill russell, hakeem olajuwon, david robinson, tim duncan, any of the best deffensive centers of all time and in their prime, will still get scored on by a prime kareem at center

going back to the opening post, the whole positionless term though i believe is more in saying that traditional roles for specific positions isnt the standards anymore. the point guard is not meant to just set up teamates but can be the main scorer of your team if thats for the best. the big men shouldnt stay near the hoop if they are just as adept or even better at shooting from the perimeter or outside. just because youre a perimeter player doesnt mean you cant grab a decent number of boards for your team. and it doesnt really matter what or from where you get your scoring in whoevers position in the offensive end so long as youre able to play well on the deffensive end and get stops. 

positionless basketball is a bottom line thing, if your team can score on offense and get stops on deffense, the details dont really matter. 

 

 

 

[benny15Participant]

 okay, but doesnt a prime kareem at center scores all day on any name we think of? bill russell, hakeem olajuwon, david robinson, tim duncan, any of the best deffensive centers of all time and in their prime, will still get scored on by a prime kareem at center

going back to the opening post, the whole positionless term though i believe is more in saying that traditional roles for specific positions isnt the standards anymore. the point guard is not meant to just set up teamates but can be the main scorer of your team if thats for the best. the big men shouldnt stay near the hoop if they are just as adept or even better at shooting from the perimeter or outside. just because youre a perimeter player doesnt mean you cant grab a decent number of boards for your team. and it doesnt really matter what or from where you get your scoring in whoevers position in the offensive end so long as youre able to play well on the deffensive end and get stops. 

positionless basketball is a bottom line thing, if your team can score on offense and get stops on deffense, the details dont really matter. 

 

 

 

[Reptilian MonkParticipant]

No it is not. Give me a Prime Kareem at Center, and try and have a 6’8 Draymond guard him. Kareem scores all day or draws double/triple teams for wide open 3’s

[trombonematrix43Participant]

I don’t think the NBA is becoming position less. I think in todays NBA you are seeing the line between positions become blurred more than anything.

[trombonematrix43Participant]

I don’t think the NBA is becoming position less. I think in todays NBA you are seeing the line between positions become blurred more than anything.

[Untouchable JParticipant]

Yes, it is. Dont look at it so literal. Steph curry is not really a point guard. Draymoind is not really a PF…or center. Lebron changes position on each possession

Since players cant really post up anymore, and since players have less strength bc they come in so early,  there’s less difference between a SG and SF. Between a SF and a PF, between a PF and C. So basically any player 6’7 and up with a lil weight can play the 4. Any player 6’9 and up with a lil weight can play the 5.

There was a time PGs rarely led their teams in scoring, even with guys that were obviously capable of it (Isaiah, Magic, Tim hardaway, GP). Now, u have Lillard, wall, going forward probably kyrie, etc. They are quasi shooting guards.

So the league is becoming positionless in terms of really their are 3 areas: guards, wings, and bigs. There are no more pg-sg-sf-pf-c

[Untouchable JParticipant]

Yes, it is. Dont look at it so literal. Steph curry is not really a point guard. Draymoind is not really a PF…or center. Lebron changes position on each possession

Since players cant really post up anymore, and since players have less strength bc they come in so early,  there’s less difference between a SG and SF. Between a SF and a PF, between a PF and C. So basically any player 6’7 and up with a lil weight can play the 4. Any player 6’9 and up with a lil weight can play the 5.

There was a time PGs rarely led their teams in scoring, even with guys that were obviously capable of it (Isaiah, Magic, Tim hardaway, GP). Now, u have Lillard, wall, going forward probably kyrie, etc. They are quasi shooting guards.

So the league is becoming positionless in terms of really their are 3 areas: guards, wings, and bigs. There are no more pg-sg-sf-pf-c

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

Can you guard it, can you attack it, can you rebound it, and are you putting your guys in a position to succeed? If you have LeBron, who is visibly larger than his power forward and center, what is "going small?". When he was in Miami, he was 6′ 9" 260 lbs. and Chris Bosh is 6′ 11" 250 lbs. and everyone said they were small. Golden State’s "small" lineup is contingent on Draymond Green being extremely rare. He is 6′ 5" but is long, bulky, can move his feet defensively, play facing the basket, and help in keeping bigger teams from completely annihilating them on the glass. It is what made Diaw and Marion so important to the Suns a decade ago. It also helps in that Iguodala, Barnes, and Livingston are tough. While none of them are prototypically strong, they don’t back down when dealing with bigger players. I think refs tend to give them more leeway, which helps matters, but they deserve credit. Let’s say history holds form and everyone from a title team gets overpaid. If Barnes and Livingston leave, will the next guys in line to fill those roles be able to match their versatility and willingness to battle bigger opponents? We will probably see.

Also, there is an element of there being a self-fulfilling prophesy. Because more teams are going small, and not always to their benefit (Indiana, Chicago, Phoenix, etc), it makes teams that are good at small ball more effective because less teams have the matchups to make them uncomfortable. The league has never had enough big men to sustain every team in the league, and there have always been work arounds. At the moment, not many good teams have the big men who can not only attack the Golden State small lineup effectively, but also keep Green and the like from matching them on the other end. The problem in other teams trying to replicate Golden State is not just about Curry and Thompson, but Green. Not even Golden State thought Green was going to be Green. They paid Lee and Bogut as well as drafted Kuzmic and Ezeli. Most every other attempt will end up looking like Boston and see them get smoked by Atlanta’s Millsap, Horford, and Scott in the first round. I also think we have been cheated out of a San Antonio-Golden State series, because I do believe Popovich would have a defensive gameplan that would invite Iguodala and Green to beat them shooting jumpers, and see if they can stay out of foul trouble dealing with San Antonio’s front court. A couple bad calls changes history. 

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

Can you guard it, can you attack it, can you rebound it, and are you putting your guys in a position to succeed? If you have LeBron, who is visibly larger than his power forward and center, what is "going small?". When he was in Miami, he was 6′ 9" 260 lbs. and Chris Bosh is 6′ 11" 250 lbs. and everyone said they were small. Golden State’s "small" lineup is contingent on Draymond Green being extremely rare. He is 6′ 5" but is long, bulky, can move his feet defensively, play facing the basket, and help in keeping bigger teams from completely annihilating them on the glass. It is what made Diaw and Marion so important to the Suns a decade ago. It also helps in that Iguodala, Barnes, and Livingston are tough. While none of them are prototypically strong, they don’t back down when dealing with bigger players. I think refs tend to give them more leeway, which helps matters, but they deserve credit. Let’s say history holds form and everyone from a title team gets overpaid. If Barnes and Livingston leave, will the next guys in line to fill those roles be able to match their versatility and willingness to battle bigger opponents? We will probably see.

Also, there is an element of there being a self-fulfilling prophesy. Because more teams are going small, and not always to their benefit (Indiana, Chicago, Phoenix, etc), it makes teams that are good at small ball more effective because less teams have the matchups to make them uncomfortable. The league has never had enough big men to sustain every team in the league, and there have always been work arounds. At the moment, not many good teams have the big men who can not only attack the Golden State small lineup effectively, but also keep Green and the like from matching them on the other end. The problem in other teams trying to replicate Golden State is not just about Curry and Thompson, but Green. Not even Golden State thought Green was going to be Green. They paid Lee and Bogut as well as drafted Kuzmic and Ezeli. Most every other attempt will end up looking like Boston and see them get smoked by Atlanta’s Millsap, Horford, and Scott in the first round. I also think we have been cheated out of a San Antonio-Golden State series, because I do believe Popovich would have a defensive gameplan that would invite Iguodala and Green to beat them shooting jumpers, and see if they can stay out of foul trouble dealing with San Antonio’s front court. A couple bad calls changes history. 

[bdiddy5115Participant]

This is a complex topic, and I don’t have the time to address all the complexities of it, but I’ll say this:

1) The hybrid-zone defense is making the "traditional post-player" less effective and less efficient. Teams are now switch heavy, and often play a mix of man and zone, and the isolated 1-on-1 post matchup which teams went to in the 90’s can’t really work well with it being much easier to deny the post-entry and converge on post players.

2) "Skill beats size but skilled size beats all"

3) Mismatches today are less about who wins in a positional head-to-head matchup, they’re more about who’s a liability on the other team. PG and C are interesting because they generally feature extremes in terms of size and skill. But play too many skilled small guards, and they’ll eventually run into a bigger team that will exploit their lack of size. And play too many bigs who can’t guard in space, and they’ll eventually run into a quicker/more skilled team that exploits their mobility.

4) Wings today might be more important than ever. They lie in between the extremes, and aren’t as easily exploited in either area (hence why many teams are playing three to four 6’6"-6’9" athletes in their lineups, like the Warriors), and can switch with ease and provide maximum range on D (with both length and mobility). 

5) Bigs are not "extinct". They’ve simply evolved to better fit today’s game. Karl Towns in the 90’s would’ve been taught to play primarily in the post. Today, he has to be as versatile as possible (P&P, P&R, post play, etc). And the fact that he can defend both big spots and space the floor makes him nearly un-exploitable. He’s the rare big with mobility and skill on both ends, which goes back to the "skilled size" point.

6) Rim-protection is still incredibly valuable, which is why you probably won’t see many successful big-less teams out there. GS with Draymond at C is the closest thing you’ll get, but he’s a unique player who defies traditional size/positional expectations. 

 

[bdiddy5115Participant]

This is a complex topic, and I don’t have the time to address all the complexities of it, but I’ll say this:

1) The hybrid-zone defense is making the "traditional post-player" less effective and less efficient. Teams are now switch heavy, and often play a mix of man and zone, and the isolated 1-on-1 post matchup which teams went to in the 90’s can’t really work well with it being much easier to deny the post-entry and converge on post players.

2) "Skill beats size but skilled size beats all"

3) Mismatches today are less about who wins in a positional head-to-head matchup, they’re more about who’s a liability on the other team. PG and C are interesting because they generally feature extremes in terms of size and skill. But play too many skilled small guards, and they’ll eventually run into a bigger team that will exploit their lack of size. And play too many bigs who can’t guard in space, and they’ll eventually run into a quicker/more skilled team that exploits their mobility.

4) Wings today might be more important than ever. They lie in between the extremes, and aren’t as easily exploited in either area (hence why many teams are playing three to four 6’6"-6’9" athletes in their lineups, like the Warriors), and can switch with ease and provide maximum range on D (with both length and mobility). 

5) Bigs are not "extinct". They’ve simply evolved to better fit today’s game. Karl Towns in the 90’s would’ve been taught to play primarily in the post. Today, he has to be as versatile as possible (P&P, P&R, post play, etc). And the fact that he can defend both big spots and space the floor makes him nearly un-exploitable. He’s the rare big with mobility and skill on both ends, which goes back to the "skilled size" point.

6) Rim-protection is still incredibly valuable, which is why you probably won’t see many successful big-less teams out there. GS with Draymond at C is the closest thing you’ll get, but he’s a unique player who defies traditional size/positional expectations. 

 

[BiggysmallsParticipant]

The NBA isn’t "becoming" positionless because there are still a lot of guys that aren’t versatile. 

There are the rare players like James, Green and some others who can do a little bit of everything. But there aren’t many guys like that and there never will be an over-abundance of those kinds of players. 

The game has downsized. Old school PFs are now Centers and there aren’t alot of true centers who can contribute on their own offensively. 

Teams are trying to play more interchangable parts – which GS has done better than anyone – with guys like Livingston, Iggy, Barnes, Thompson and Green who can all guard different players. With so many teams running pick and roll all the time, being able to switch and defend that is paramount and if you’ve got guys who can only guard one position, they’ll get exploited. 

 

 

 

 

 

[BiggysmallsParticipant]

The NBA isn’t "becoming" positionless because there are still a lot of guys that aren’t versatile. 

There are the rare players like James, Green and some others who can do a little bit of everything. But there aren’t many guys like that and there never will be an over-abundance of those kinds of players. 

The game has downsized. Old school PFs are now Centers and there aren’t alot of true centers who can contribute on their own offensively. 

Teams are trying to play more interchangable parts – which GS has done better than anyone – with guys like Livingston, Iggy, Barnes, Thompson and Green who can all guard different players. With so many teams running pick and roll all the time, being able to switch and defend that is paramount and if you’ve got guys who can only guard one position, they’ll get exploited. 

 

 

 

 

 

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

 And you saw how those interchangable parts idea fell apart without Green last night. All of a sudden, it was an invitation to 30 point quarters and ridiculous shooting percentages.

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

 And you saw how those interchangable parts idea fell apart without Green last night. All of a sudden, it was an invitation to 30 point quarters and ridiculous shooting percentages.

[Untouchable JParticipant]

Yea i dont know what NBA yall are watching but for a good 15 minutes of last nights game Lebron was playing center across from James Michael Mcadoo.

Aint no positions, bih

[Untouchable JParticipant]

Yea i dont know what NBA yall are watching but for a good 15 minutes of last nights game Lebron was playing center across from James Michael Mcadoo.

Aint no positions, bih

[Author]

Posts