[EverybodyHatesChrisParticipant]

Ben Wallace is going to retire at the end of this season, is he hall of fame material? IMO he is the greatest undrafted nba player of all time. He has never averaged over 10 ppg in his career but he’s a great rebounder and defender. Wallace was a 4 time defensive player of the year, a 4 time all star, was named to the all defensive first team 5 times and he won a title in 2004 with the pistons. Also, he averaged over 15 rpg in the 02-03 season. Is that enough for a player to be considered HOF worthy?

[M-EazyParticipant]

Wait…are you serious?! 

[er1csh3nParticipant]

 This is actually quite debatable, being a 4x DPoY is quite a feat, 5 time defensive, and a championship. The biggest factor is having a championship. I mean, if Dennis Rodman gets in…why not Ben Wallace? Ben Wallace was also undrafted, making it a great backstory. IMO he has more credentials to be in the HoF then VC or Tmac.

[er1csh3nParticipant]

 This is actually quite debatable, being a 4x DPoY is quite a feat, 5 time defensive, and a championship. The biggest factor is having a championship. I mean, if Dennis Rodman gets in…why not Ben Wallace? Ben Wallace was also undrafted, making it a great backstory. IMO he has more credentials to be in the HoF then VC or Tmac.

[EverybodyHatesChrisParticipant]

Yes, I’m serious. Dennis Rodman got in as a defensive/rebounding specialist, and even though Ben Wallace isnt as good as Rodman, I think he could make a HOF case. And again, he won defensive player of the year 4 times. The only other player to do that was Dikembe Mutombo. 

[Wavy BagelsParticipant]

 Agree with er1c. A player who was overlooked by EVERY team in the draft ends with 4 DPOY’s and a ring that had NO true superstar. HOF for sure. If not first ballad, most surely second.

[PrecociousNeophyteParticipant]

 If Dennis Rodman can get in then Ben Wallace can get in. I don’t know if you heard this already, but he just passed Avery Johnson yesterday for most games played for an undrafted player.

[scbe2223Participant]

If I hadn’t seen how much he impacted those teams during the Pistons mini-run of dominance I would say no. However, I did see his play through those years and he was an absolute nightmare for opposing teams. He was an absolute man down low, and is one of the best offensively challenged players ever. He’ll probably eventually get in simply on the DPOY stat alone.

[sheltwon3Participant]

Wallace has one ring so and Dennis Rodman has like 5 so i don’t think Ben Wallace should go in.  There are better players that are more deserving than him that are still waiting to get in.

[aamir543Participant]

If Reggie can’t even make the ballot, then……..

[GrandmamaParticipant]

I was gonna say bring up the same point Sheltwon brought up…5 rings vs 1.  Rodman also averaged 3 rpg more than Wallace over their careers, and played for the greatest team in NBA history 95-96 Bulls.  There are better players and more deserving players who aren’t in yet.  I say no…

[WeavvvParticipant]

The Rodman vs. Wallace debate shouldnt even be brought up. Big Ben wallowed away in DC and Orlando for his first 4 years, before he did anything even remotely ALL-STAR worthy. Where as Rodman was scoring in double digits, averaging almost 8 RPG, and shooting over 50% by his second year. Granted, the scoring didnt carry on throughout his career, he was still very efficient.

Ben Wallace doesnt even average double digit REBOUNDS..what he is typically known for, (besides DPoY), for a career. Where as Rodman averages 13+ per game. In perspective, Rodman is 10th on the all time NBA RPG list. Wallace? 52nd place. Right behind Chris Webber, and about 10 slots below Carlos Boozer. Is Boozer a HOFer? Absolutley not.

The argument that Wallace won 1 (repeat ONE) Championship on a team with no superstars is true, but that’s what made the team great. Their TEAM defense, and execution on offense. Not trying to take too much away from Big Ben’s DPoY awards, but he was on the best defensive teams of those couple of years.

The argument that because Rodman made it in, Wallace should too, is lazy. Rodman was an absolute artist and perfectionist at his craft. When he wasn’t shutting down some of the greatest Power Forwards to ever play the game (Karl Malone?), he was gobbling up every rebound coming his way. Not only was he a great one on one defender, but an excellent team defender.

Wallace MIGHT should be considered, but certainly not anytime soon. And the only reason he’ll get any consideration is because he won 4 DPoY awards. 

The player Wallace SHOULD be compared to, is Dikembe Mutumbo, not Rodman. Mutumbo also won 4 DPoY awards, while playing in 8 All Star Games, averaging double digit RPG for his career AND being 2nd on the all time blocks list. Wallace can’t even live up to THAT.

[cabbycabParticipant]

 Who said TMAC should be considered for HOF??

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

"if Dennis Rodman gets in…why not Ben Wallace?"

Rodman

• 7 PPG
• 13.1 RPG
• 5x NBA Champion

Wallace

• 5.9 PPG
• 9.8 RPG
• 1x NBA Champion

Ben Wallace’s BEST years mirror Dennis Rodman’s CAREER average.

That’s why.

[invalidParticipant]

 yes for me, undrafted, played several years unnoticed. from nothing to top defensive player and a champ, even for just one time.  he had a short great run, but those years he really did dominate the league defensively. go big ben 

[starpyParticipant]

I think the Rodman- Wallace comparisons are useless because they played in 2 very different basketball eras.

The total rpg, spg, bpg for the league have gone down since the 90’s. There is no longer hand checking and the defensive 3 in the key rule has been around since 2001. Even the style of ball is different with more emphasis on the 3 point shot and guard oriented offense.

Im not saying that Ben Wallace would be as good as Rodman was, but the era of basketball itself should be given some thought. Ben Wallace was probably one of the 5 iconic defensive players of the 2000’s, just as Rodman was an defensive player of the 1990’s and Dwight Howard will likely be for the 2010’s.

That being said I am still not entirely sold on Big Ben in the HOF, certainly not first ballot anyways. Tough to say if 6-7 really strong years surrounded by bad to average years on either side is really HOF worthy.

[Mr. 19134Participant]

Thanks guys for putting them numbers up for Rodman cuz when i saw if Rodman got in Ben can get in I flipped because they’re really not comparable.  The only reason Rodman didn’t score more if because he didn’t have too and played with great offensive talent all his career.  I’m not talking Billups, Prince, Hamilton great, I mean like Jordan, Pippen, Kukoc great.  

But Ben Wallace definitly deserves to be on a HoF ballot and the main reason why is because he’s won 4 DPoY awards which has only been accomplished by him and Mutombo, and probably Howard soon.  If Ben Wallace had went to Chicago and upgraded their team like he was paid to do then he’s probably in the HoF but he didn’t and that may ultimatly be the reason he don’t get it.

Also plz don’t compare Mutombo to Wallace either, Mutombo’s one of the greatest Centers to ever play this game.

[WeavvvParticipant]

I wasn’t trying to compare Wallace to Mutumbo, in fact I was stating that Mutumbo’s HOF case should be stronger than Big Ben’s is. My comparison was simply that everybody’s Ben Wallace HOF case was based off of the fact that Rodman got in, so should Wallace, while in fact Rodman is head and shoulders above Wallace in almost every facet. Ben Wallace’s career tract could be more CLOSELY contrasted to Mutumbo’s, and you don’t hear people flying off the hinges about Mutumbo being on the ballot. 

[surveParticipant]

 I said it many times before and will say it again, you guys put way too much emphasis on stats and raw numbers.  Stop comparing players so much….talking like because Wallace is not as good as Rodman that will keep him out of the Hall.  It wont.  It will come down to Wallace’s impact on the game.  But since you guys love to compare players…. Wallace did some things Rodman didnt

• DPOY: Wallace- 4  Rodman- 2
• All Star:  Wallace- 4 Rodman- 2
• All NBA: Wallace- 5 (3x 2nd team and 2x 3rd team) Rodman- 2 (both 3rd team)
• Led the league in rebounds and blocked shots the same year!

so while you want to throw up career avgs, Wallace pales in comparison, but if you want to put up accolades, Wallace is better except for the titles, but sh!t, Wallace didnt play with 4 freakin HOFers!  At the very most, he will be lucky if Billups gets in.  Meanwhile, Dennis?  Well he just had one of the greatest PG’s in history and a HOF SG in Detroit.  In Chicago, he played with the GOAT and arguably the best sports tandem in history!

Look at those accolades above and imagine if you DIDNT know who the two players were being compared….which would you think had a stronger case for the HALL?  That should tell you right there that Wallace not only has a great chance, but it would be well deserved if he did get in.

[surveParticipant]

 I really get sick of the championship argument.  Rodman played with the GOAT and 2 other top 30 players of all time.  Then Dumars, who may not be top 50, but top 100 definitely and definitely ranked higher than Billups.  Billups, the best player Wallace played with in his prime favorably compares to Dumars who is the lesser of all HOFers that Rodman played with.  Just sayin, Rodman got in due to his individual accomplishments, the titles dont even matter, he likely wouldve gotten in without them, but definitely wouldve gotten in by just winning one.

[surveParticipant]

"Big Ben wallowed away in DC and Orlando for his first 4 years, before he did anything even remotely ALL-STAR worthy." 

"Ben Wallace doesnt even average double digit REBOUNDS..what he is typically known for, (besides DPoY), for a career."

Proof that once Big Ben got going, his run was truly spectacular.  Think about what you just said, if Wallace didnt do much his first 4 years, doesnt that make it even more amazing that he was able to garnish more indidual accolades than Rodman with a "shorter" prime?  You just said a guy who gave away his first 4 years ended up with 3 more All-NBA selections.  LOL.

"The argument that Wallace won 1 (repeat ONE) Championship on a team with no superstars is true, but that’s what made the team great. Their TEAM defense, and execution on offense."

Now you have me questioning whether you even saw the Pistons play back then.  Wallace ANCHORED that defense.  You think Tyson Chandler is a big reason why Dallas won the title?  Chandler is nothing compared to prime Big Ben.  Think of Prime Wallace with Dirk…..oooooh, thats scary.

 

[WeavvvParticipant]

HOF should be about an ENTIRE body of work. Since you want to keep bringing up comparisons of Rodman to Wallace (even though I blatantly stated that is a huge gaffe on the part of anyone who tries), look at the raw prime of both players.
From ’91-’92 to the ’97-’98 seasons Rodman’s LOWEST RPG average was 14.9. That is 7 seasons!
While Wallace’s 7 year prime consisted of his HIGHEST season averaging 15.4 RPG. Sure, Wallace’s climb to stardom might have been more difficult being undrafted, but it’s not like Rodman went to Duke or G-Town and blew folks away on the national stage in college. Rodman was a 2nd round pick. Credit isn’t usually given for such things, anyway.

The fact that Big Ben was considered All-NBA selections for as many times as he was, should just go to show how weak the competition was during that time frame anyway. Quick, without looking, name another center, in the eastern conference who was dominant in that time frame for more than the 1 or 2 seasons that Shaq was in Miami. All-NBA Selections are extremely contextual.

As far as your other argument, Championships DO count. Yeah, Rodman played with the GOAT, and won a lot of championships. But yes, I did watch that Detroit team, and sure, Wallace anchored the defense for 1 championship team, but they weren’t even the favorites. And Wallace seamed together a great TEAM defense.
You make it seem as if Wallace BLOWS Rodman out of the water with All-NBA selections. Let it be known that Wallace made 6 (5 first teams, 1 second team) All Defensive Teams. Rodman made 8 (7 first team, 1 second). As for All-NBA selections, keep in mind again, context

What you should ultimately remember that if you’re going to say things like;
" Stop comparing players so much…." 
… you probably shouldn’t try to do so.

My biggest point thus far, is that from the beginning, when I broke down the numbers of the two players (yes, stats.. it’s the baseline for how we judge these guys) (even @surve said " imagine if you DIDNT know who the two players were being compared"). These are two different animals. But even trying to compare Wallace to ANYBODY, is futile.

[surveParticipant]

 "The fact that Big Ben was considered All-NBA selections for as many times as he was, should just go to show how weak the competition was during that time frame anyway."

Weak argument.  What does that prove IF it were true?  That Rodman would make as many selections?

I clearly fortified my statement regarding "stop comparing players so much" as a form of absolute criteria when I said "But since you guys love to compare players…. Wallace did some things Rodman didnt"

Had there not been an attempt to belittle and cheapen Wallace’s HOF probability by comparing his stats to a somewhat similar player, I wouldve never even posted what I said.  But you want to talk stats, ok, lets talk accolades.  Seems as if you are upset because I proved that Wallace is just as accomplished as Rodman credential wise outside of the rings.  Which Chicago won championships without Rodman by the way….so there is no proof Chicago would not have won had he not been there.

Championships do not matter as much as you make it seem, thats like the argument for anybody who DOESNT know basketball.  It does matter, in Wallace’s case, it solidifies his probability…in Rodman’s case, pulling down rebounds at the rate he was, its doubtful he would be omitted even he had NEVER won a title.  However Rodmans 5 titles to Ben’s 1 doesnt mean much, just like Russell’s rings over Jordan.  There is a point where you have to look past the rings.

"From ’91-’92 to the ’97-’98 seasons Rodman’s LOWEST RPG average was 14.9. That is 7 seasons!"

there you go again….what is that supposed to mean?  that means Wallace isnt deserving?  phluck all that stat crap, because people say Rodman is the greatest rebounder of all time, and I tend to agree, but if we use stats as our only argument, the he is not better than Walt Bellamy.  Bellamy avg double figure boards for 16 seasons.  Again, Rodman’s achievements wont keep Wallace out of the HALL.

You imply that Wallace was All NBA by default and coincidentally, they won a championship because the league was weak.  This is a very high level of competition and when you say that, you underestimate the ability and skill level these players have, even if it doesnt show up on paper.

 

[surveParticipant]

 as far as blowing out Rodman on All NBA selections, Wallace had more 2nd team selections then Rodman had selections period, plus he had the same amount of 3rd team selections.  On this level, that is a blowout.  So you can pull up the stats, but Ben has the accolades, thats all I am saying.  You dont make All NBA 5 times because the league is weak….thats just ridiculous.

Dont try and fool people with that talk about dominant centers, Wallace was a Forward-Center, in fact, Shaq was about the only guy who was making the team that DIDNT play forward.  All the guys making it were Webber, Dirk, J. O’Neal, KG, Duncan (who people consider the greatest PF [not center] of all time).  Which one of those guys played exclusively at Center???  That was cheap to say the only dominant center was Shaq as if thats all Ben was competing against.  He was getting his selections over guys like Dirk, K-Mart, Yao, Jamison, Marion, Stoudemire, G. Hill, etc…. See, while some of those guys were making All Star teams, Ben was getting All NBA recognition, if you say the league was without talented frontcourt players then, you’re crazy.  He was getting that recognition because he was impacting wins in a major way.

[surveParticipant]

 another key thing I forgot to mention is, when I say Rodman’s achievements wont keep Ben out of the Hall, thats literal, because come ballot time he doesnt have to face Rodman.  Likely, he wont have to face Mutombo either.  The thing about ballots is, we get upset about someone not making it in or being on the ballot while totally ignoring the fact that timing plays a huge part in balloting and selection.

[WeavvvParticipant]

You’re missing the ENTIRE point. I’ve been attempting, in EVERY single manner that I have posted, to imply that Wallace’s HOF status does not rely on ANYTHING Rodman has done. Rodman slipped in, MAINLY due to the fact that he has as many rings as he does, playing a pivotal role in EVERY championship team he played on, WHILE being arguably the best at one thing, the league has ever seen. As you "tend to agree".

You are the only one, of us 2, who has brought up Rodman’s selection having ANYTHING to do with Wallace’s. My initial reaction (my first post in this thread) was there to defeat anybody else’s thoughts that the two should even be mentioned in the same sentence. If you’ll re-read, my thought was that the one player (statistically) Wallace should be compared to, is Mutumbo. And even Dikembe has Wallace beat, in a lot of areas.

I never discredited their Championship. They beat, what was thought (at the time), to be a superstar laden team, that would be untouchable. The only thing about their championship that I mentioned, was that they won it because they played like a team, not having to be led by one superstar in general, and that they were not the favorites. All of those things are true.

My argument as far as Wallace’s All NBA Selections (mostly Defensive Team selections) is mostly intuitive, yes, but it’s hard to argue against. Look at EVERY Defensive Team selection that he was made on. He was selected as the CENTER on everyone of those teams. His name (on Ballots) was listed as Center, on every one. Even next to ‘Sheed, he played CENTER. My argument was in his case as a Center. I’ll regress a bit on my stance, in that manner, but still, look at the facts. 

And if you truly believe that "championships do not matter as much as you make it seem", you are the one in denial, my friend. That’s why people on the "committee" often ponder Robert Horry’s merits. Trust me, it’s not anything other to do than a few big shots, and all the bling on his fingers.

The 5 ALL NBA Team appearances are nice. It’s a nice bullet point for his resume. But it’s not the end-all. Just as you said "Timing place a huge part in balloting and selection." That isn’t just for the Nominee’s they’re being balloted with, but the era and time frame in which they played, and starred in the prime, within. 

[WeavvvParticipant]

From the beginning. The Rodman v. Wallace comparisons should stop. That was the point of my initial reply, anyway. BUT even the committee will look through Wallace’s resume, and attempt to deduct his value based on every aspect of the game. His era, rings, All NBA Selections, Records, Statistics, and even what they use in NCAA, the "eye test."

In my humble opinion, for all of the reasons I have listed above, he’s not HOF material. Possibly on the cusp, but I don’t think he should make it. I’ve watched the games, and done my research since.
Nobody has been able to give me a compelling argument, otherwise. I’m extremely open minded, ESPECIALLY when it comes to things so open, intuitive, and controversial/argumentative as sports, but reading and re-reading through this thread nobody can make anything stick with Wallace EXCEPT his 5x All NBA Selections, none of which were first teamers, which tells me that while he was an outstanding player, at his position, not once was he considered the BEST player at his position in anyone year. 

[WeavvvParticipant]

I never thought I would get so worked up over Ben Wallace. 

[surveParticipant]

 hey bruh, it wasnt you that posted the stats, it was TOL23.  it wasnt you that initially offered the comparison between Rodman and Wallace either.  what you did was, you came in the convo and started saying why Wallace shouldnt be compared to Rodman, implying that he in no way measured up and that is false.  While Rodman is obviously the more colorful player and the more popular figure, on the court, Big Ben holds his own as far as his probability to get in.

when the stats were brought up, I came from a totally different perspective to show that Wallace had more accolades.  Rodman didnt sneak in, he deserved to be there, he was a specialist.   Wallaces impact takes a back seat to no one in this era however.  His credentials indicate his impact.

Now check this out.  You are kinda getting it twisted with what I am saying about rings.  There are different ways to look at it.  I will offer you this….

Rodman was a monster of a player as far as individual stats.  Similar to Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, etc…the main argument people always site in the Duncan/Malone debate is the rings.  I dont base it on that.  As far as Rodman’s induction, he didnt need the rings to get in, his rebounding was unlike anything we have seen in the modern era.  

But here is where that one ring that Wallace has can shine just as bright as Rodman’s 5.  When was Dennis ever considered the best player on a championship team?  Ok, how about 2nd best?  

Dennis was at the very most 3rd best player on a championship team.

Big Ben was arguably the best player on his championship team…but no less than 2nd behind Billups.  He was arguably the MVP of that team.  Also, his Piston teams although they only got that 1 with him, were very good for years….because of him and Billups.  Rodman was more of the icing on the cake for Detroit, Chicago, San Antonio, Los Angeles, etc…

Because Ben is such a non-offensive player, he is viewed as a role player.  What he actually was, was a star who did dirty work.

As you say its body of work.  Rodman and others included have gotten in with equal or lesser resumes.  You pointed out that never was Wallace considered the best at his position, thats not end all be all, neither were a lot of people, including Rodman.  You cited that Big Ben didnt make 1st team All NBA, well, some others didnt that got in, Rodman didnt, Dantley didnt, Dumars didnt.

I look at his impact on those winning teams, his impact on bringing a title to Detroit on a team devoid with stars.  His defensive dominance, his ability to lead the league in rebounding and blocks the same year, a feat only accomplished by other HOF players.  When you start talking about players who did stuff only other HOFers have done, thats pretty strong case for them to get in, combined with all the factors I mentioned, plus the strength and dominance of their prime, which I truly believe Big Ben’s cant be measured on paper.

 

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

For the most part I understand why you are comparing the 2 players…  but 1 was a center and the other a forward.  Rodman chased rings from town to town ands Ben Wallace didn’t seem tobe about that part of it. 

Does anyone think Rodman could’ve guarded Shaq as well as Ben Wallace did?

[WeavvvParticipant]

I hear you, Surve. All the stats have been placed on the table. Whether or not one chooses to compare him to another player (be it Rodman, Mutumbo, Jeremy Lin, whatever..), is up to them. The committee might be so inclined to do so, they may not. 

In my humble opinion, he doesn’t have enough. It’s wrong of me to degrade what he does have. Multiple DPoY awards, Multiple ALL NBA Team appearances, 2 rebounding titles, along with the blocks title, and a ring in which he, along with 3 other players from that team, could arguably be considered the best player.
But it’s also the Hall of Fame. Not the hall of outstanding defenders. Not the Hall of potentially best players on a one championship team.

Nobody knows what exactly will happen when Big Ben is eligible.

 

As for @purplemonkey, Big Ben went off to Chicago and Cleveland, where people thought he would be "part of the championship solution".. and ended up not being, in either place. 
And while i’m trying to pump the breaks on the Rodman v. Wallace debate.. statistically..

In 12 Regular season games against one another, Shaq averaged 26 pgg and 9 rpg, Rodman: 6 ppg, 11 rpg.
In 23 Regular Season games against one another, Shaq averaged 25 pgg and 9 rpg, Wallace: 6 ppg, 9 rpg.
that’s just a baseline.. a lot of different factors, ONE most importantly: Rodman rarely guarded Shaq, from all that I remember watching.

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

Wallace was chasing years on a contract more than championships. The Bulls were a huge contract for Wallace on a young team looking to improve. 

Rodman went from town to town searching out his best chance(s) to win and tried to collect from those teams after re-establishing himself  or in some cases just pretty much asked to leave.

[surveParticipant]

 I feel you, and a lot of people feel the way you do.  I think Wallace’s resume is more impressive than some who have or will get in eventually.  To lead the league in 2 different statistical catagories is something rare to do in the modern era.  We did a couple of threads a while back, where we break players down.  it was just a fun discussion, some people came in and were going crazy because we listed certain players.  if you havent checked it out yet, you may enjoy it.  we even listed guys like Derek Fisher and you will be surprised at some of the arguments for players like that getting in.

 

http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/hof-candidates-10

http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/hof-candidates-11

[HitsterParticipant]

Dennis Rodman played a different position to Ben Wallace so the only likeness is they were both defensive specialists. I’d have Big Ben as a borderline HOF guy but Mount Mutombo should surely get in.

[aamir543Participant]

Mutombo gets in, Reggie gets in, the guys that will be boderline are T-Mac, Grant Hill, and Ben Wallace to an extent.

And I remember those threads Surve, and why did anyone even bring Fisher up, I mean, he’s never even been more than the 5th best player on a team at ANY point in his career. Although in 2k12, if you start an assciation with the ’98 Lakers, have a team of Scrubs, Young Kobe and Young Fish, than Fish with make several All-Star teams, All-NBA teams, and even average 30 and 9 for a season or two.

[Author]

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