[surveParticipant]

Lebron’s biggest mistake wasnt necessarily choosing the players he did as teammates, but going to a team that has a coach who is on the same level as his former coach….Mike Brown.

Mike Brown and Erik Spoelstra are just not great coaches….at least not where it counts the most, and thats offense.  Both have been able to get a lot out of their teams defensively….but offensively…..it looks like playground ball.  Their ineffectiveness to get the role players involved is really a major weakness.

I want to know you guys opinion on this….

When Lebron was in Cleveland, his teammates really got dogged out about their lack of ability.  Now with the Heat, its the same thing, only that he has two other stars that can help him out.  Still more individual style ball though and that doesnt work.

Were the players on the Cavs that bad?  Looking back, I would have to say probably not….because I definitely dont think the Heat has bad players.   Those guys are good but Spo doesnt know how to use them together.

Look at how Pietrus is playing…..I always liked him, good shooter, athletic, great defender….but man, Mike Miller and James Jones can play some ball too.  I really dont get it.  He plays Miller sometimes and not Jones, then vise-versa.  Those guys need to have some serious plays being ran for them.  They are deadly shooters.

Mario Chalmers?  Well, he is better than Mo Williams.  I mean I like Mo….but he is basically a scorer.  Chalmers is a tough defender, good ballhandler, and a really good 3 point shooter.  He should be involved more as well.

Its kinda hard for me to believe that Juwan Howard, the former All-Star has that much less left than Kurt Thomas.  Though they are the same age, Thomas avg 15mpg this year, while appearing in 53 games.  Howard avg less than 7mpg while appearing in 28 games.  The year before that, Thomas avg 22mpg to Howard’s 10mpg.  I mean if Howard is that useless then why is he on the team?

then you have Haslem, Cole, Battier, and Turiaf…all decent players but their roles have been so infrequent this year.

Spoelstra appears to be a good guy, and that makes me somewhat sympathetic towards his stuggles, but it takes more than being a good guy to win a championship.  His rotations are bad and it doesnt appear that he has any consistency with his lineups or gameplans.

 

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Let’s look at the flip side of this…

Has anyone ever considered that these offenses are so stagnant because the coaches are playing to the strengths of their players? I mean, LeBron James and Dwyane Wade are two of the most "give me the ball, let me dribble it and isolate" in NBA history. Kobe Bryant shoots a lot, but even he can at least move without the ball and put himself in different parts of the floor. I don’t care how good you are… Anytime you have that style of game, especially without a consistent jumpshot, your team’s offense becomes predictable and allows great defensive teams to load up on you.

Let’s put some blame on LeBron. Where’s the consistent low post game? Can you get in the mid or high post? You can’t move a player around without the ball if he’s not very comfortable doing it. We’ve seen what LeBron or Wade does when the other has the ball… They’re basically just standing around. These aren’t guys who are comfortable doing the simple things in basketball like moving without the ball, cutting, catching and shooting, etc.

I almost think that the style of play of LeBron/D. Wade doesn’t allow them to get the max abilities out of their teammates. Sometimes it’s not just assists that makes your teammates better.

Not saying Spo is a great offensive coach… Just saying that maybe he’s playing to the strengths of his players.

[sheltwon3Participant]

Some this falls on Spoelstra but the thing is I think he lets the big 2 intimidate him.  You are right he should use his role players more and let guys like Cole and James Jones get more minutes to show what they can do.  I will give them this though, Heat has no inside offensive threat and yet that still managed to win some games against good opponent. I think if Bosh can play more than 20 minutes Heat should win the next game.  It will be tougher in Boston but it can be done.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Coaching is part of the struggle and Spoelstra maybe is not much better than Mike Brown (still think at the very least he is slightly better). The infrequency of Spoelstra’s line-up’s have been a major downer and provided little consistency. When Rick Carlisle changed his line-ups last year, they seemed to serve a purpose and play well enough where you can call them "adjustments". Spoelstra just seems to flat out panic, you find yourself asking "why did this guy not get any burn?"

His playing small ball against the Celts has been a flat out failure. They have not been rebounding the ball horribly, but the role guys have not been providing crucial offense needed to make it work. Haslem has been picked apart by Kevin Garnett, which is not his fault. Fronting KG flat out stopped working and nothing was done about it. You have James Jones miss a crucial rebound at a point where you say, "Why in the f#ck was he on the floor?" I love James Jones (can be a knock down shooter), but when Mike Miller was put in last year, he is an exponentially better rebounder. One can only assume Mike’s injuries have gotten the best of him.

Well, I still think Miami is not completely done. I have never known LeBron to back away in an elimination game (he had a bad Game 5 in 2010 and a bad Game 4 in 2011). He will more than likely bring it pretty damn hard, like he has been for the majority of this series. If they are, I still find it hard to say he made a bad decision. Disappointing, maybe, but they would just go back to the drawing board and try to make a team around three pieces that resemble the first 3 Bulls championship teams (who had a better PG and a tougher C).

Imagine he had stayed in Cleveland. He wouldn’t be playing with Kyrie Irving, I’ll tell you that much. Knicks? Yep, he and Amare Stoudemire would be GREAT (his knees do not appear to be holding up very well. Just saying). The Bulls seemed like possibly the best fit, but look at what happened to Derrick Rose. LeBron is of course accountable for his decision, but I still do not think it is as regrettable as it is made out by many to be. They have not lost yet, plus they still will have chances to win. I believe that they will, and I will add, hell if it has not been interesting. Gives LeBron haters/dislikers a lot to harp on and maintains the ability for delusional LeBron fans (I am part of that club) some ability for hope and crushing, painful agony when you realize that other people may win a ring before him! WHOOPIE! OK, end of rant, but honestly I find this all interesting and will be bummed if the Heat lost Game 6/7 or the Finals (do not think it is inevitable that they lose the Finals if they make it), but still not completely sold on LeBron being in Miami being a terrible decision. I have little knowledge as to how the other choices would have turned out much better.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

And Coach Spo isn’t the dominant type of personality that’s going to get these guys to break old bad habits. The only coaches in the league that probably could is Coach Popp and Doc Rivers… The other guys are probably retired in Phil Jackson and Pat Riley.

[omphalosParticipant]

@IndianaBasketball: I could actually see Monty Williams being able to break bad habits. He’s a real no-nonsense leader who will not tolerate poor effort or disrespect. 

I have a lot of respect for Monty Williams as a coach. Granted, it’s only after one season, but the fact remains true.

Also, I’d throw Adelman in that category too, he has a knack for getting the most out of his players.

[omphalosParticipant]

@mikeyv; I still think the best place for Lebron would have been the Clippers. He’d be playing with Blake Griffin, Eric Gordon, DeAndre Jordan, Chris Kaman and Eric Bledsoe. That’s a pretty damn solid unit right there, and probably fits together better than Lebron and Wade. Gordon is a great outside shooter, great defender, and can play with/without the ball. Griffin would be a perfect running mate for Lebron on the break, and would be getting a lot of open looks in the half-court on cuts the way Hickson and Varejao were in Cleveland. Bledsoe is just a great athlete who is used to playing off the ball (suits Lebron’s PG instincts).

The Clippers were a perfect fit, nobody would have criticized him for going there, it’s hardly a stacked team, and he’d be trying to break the Clippers curse.

I agree that none of the other teams made as much sense as Miami, but Clippers were a fair shot.

[surveParticipant]

 IB, I understand what you are saying, but remember how James Jones was playing well last year before Mike Miller came back?  I remember, they would rest Wade and Bosh and run a lineup with James Jones and Lebron James.  When Lebron had full control of the offense and didnt have to look for Wade or Bosh, he looked more for his offense, but was able to find James Jones a lot and Jones was knocking down shots.  I thought this was a great 2nd unit.  Then you can rest Lebron and bring Bosh and Wade back in.  To me, the Heat looked better at this time then they did at this point right now.  

When Miller came back, Spo worked him in the rotation, but at the expense of the minutes and chemistry Jones had built up.  Yes, Miller is a better rebounder and this was likely Spo’s thinking.  Jones is the better defender though.  The injuries may have caught up with Miller, but they seemed forced to fit him in, perhaps because of his contract.  Nevertheless, I think there are minutes to be had for both of them.  Miller is the better all around player, but Jones can be deadly if used properly, like he was in spots last year.  This is part of being a great coach, being able to put together good rotations and play to the player’s strengths.  Lebron is always going to have blame.  Now DWade is getting it.  By the same token though, you could put some of that blame on Mario Chalmers if thats the case.  He is not a Tony Parker type  PG.  Still, he is very good and should be a bigger focal point of the offense.

omphalos, I have said here on several occasions that I wouldve chosen the Clippers, but Lebron had this thing about "not saving franchises".  I really dont think he anticipated how good the Clippers would be.  Thats understandable though, being that they had two lottery picks that hadnt played a game yet.  He likely still couldve ran into a similar problem with VDN, but I doubt it because the Clips didnt have as much to work with so they would definitely mold their offense around LBJ.

I am not saying it was a terrible decision, it is what it is.  I am just saying that maybe everyone looked at the player personnel and overlooked the fact that you need a great coach to be great.  Miami looks a lot like Cleveland did and I dont think you can put that all on Lebron.  Lebron as great as he is, still needs to be coached.  He is coachable, but its like omphalos said, you need someone to break bad habits and implement a good system.  Really, the Heat, like the Cavs team has been most successful due to their defense…and has faced their lows on offense.  

My point about the role players is….look at how Danny Green has played with the Spurs this year.  Look at the role that Peitrus fills for Boston.  These guys would look just as bad as Miller and Jones if they were on the Heat and thats due to coaching for the most part.  (Having a great PG like Parker or Rondo definitely helps them though)

In hindsight, the decision to leave Cleveland was not as bad as it appeared.  I dont fault him for leaving, and I still think it was a good decision overall…. but think about this….Cleveland still couldve had the best record for the past 2 seasons, still couldve went to the Finals, he likely would have 2 MVP’s instead of 1 in the past 2 years, and maybe had the Cavs met Dallas, they possibly couldve won the title.

[tdc320Participant]

Sooo….. Let me get this str8… Lebron leaves the Cavs because he didn’t have enough help. Now the Heat have become Cavs and some how his present coach and his former coach is the blame!?!?!?

[thparadoxParticipant]

1) It was a good decision. This team was an immediate powerhouse and will be a top contender for the foreseeable future.

2) I think Spoelstra should take some credit for the great defense, but also the blame for the offensive difficulties. There is simply too much isolation being played. This team can pass… Wade and Lebron are both great passers. But the sets being run do not create a lot of weakside action and cutting plays.

3) The roster isn’t as good as it could be, but it’s partly due to luck. The heat got very unlucky with the Mike Miller injury. Think back to how important that signing was for them… Miller was a dead-eye 3pt shooter (plus a great passer and good rebounder). he hasn’t been the same since breaking his hand.

4) This is year 2, and their season isn’t over yet.

[surveParticipant]

 no, you dont have it straight.  thats not putting all the blame on Spoelstra…it is simply saying that choosing teammates isnt all there is to winning.  also, I said in hindsight, the Cavs players may not be as bad as people said they were.  The Heat are not the Cavs, they are better, thats my point.  Pietrus is a good player, but Mike Miller is still a good player and James Jones just won the 3 point shootout last year.   Jones isnt Craig Hodges, he is a legitmate 6-7, 6-8….and can catch and shoot.  Building an offense isnt easy, especially around guys like Lebron and Wade, as IB said, they stand around a lot.  As good as Spo may be, I dont believe he is great and thats what you need most of the time to go that last mile.

Paradox has it right, too much iso ball, the same thing that was going on in Cleveland.  regardless of how good these guys are, they need to be coached.  Spoelstra and Brown are both good defensive coaches…but the same way Brown took flack in Cleveland for his offensive philosphy, he is catching the same flack in L.A.  and Lebron isnt there.

I have said it many times here, Spoelstra is a good coach, probably better than the likes of guys like Vinny Del Negro, but it takes a special coach to mold talent.  I admittedly was critical when Phil Jackson won his first championships with the Bulls.  I was one of those who said he shouldve won because he had the talent.  After seeing him win in L.A. I realized, having talent is sometimes even harder to win with because you have to mesh playing styles and personalities.

Put it like this, last year when they lost, there was talk that they were missing something, they need more size, another player here or there.  Really, I dont think they need any other players….but to think someone like Phil Jackson, Pop, Sloan, maybe even Pat Riley cant get more out of this team offensively is dillusional.

[NYK2010Participant]

People need to get over The Decision both the actual decision and it being on TV.

Even Cavs fans you have Irving and another top pick move on.  Cleveland had its chanced and failed to put any decent players around Lebron for 7 yrs.  Also the Cavs org. made a ton of money off Lebron too.  As for the Clippers he was neve going to them becaz they are the Clippers.  The Nets, Knicks wasn’t happening becaz he didn’t want to rebuild and of course the big 3 thing.  

As for his supporting cast Mike Miller even if healthy isn’t the same player he was in Memphis or Orlando.  Maybe he’d be decent like he was in Washington but he’s just not that good anymore.  James Jones I’ve never been a big fan of he was decent off the bench with Phoenix but they ran a fast uptempo offense.  He’s just not that good 36% shooting in the playoffs and 29% on 3s he’s a 3rd string player.  The dissapointing players are Joel Anthony, Battier, Turiaf they’ve lost a lot since last yr. even.  Battier doesn’t even rebound he gets 3 rebs a game playing 35 minutes.  He’s not going to score so he’s just an undersized PF when he’s not guarding Pierce or Allen out there.  Joel Anthony who I think should get more mins becaz at least he’s a PF and can play defense and block shots has dropped off too.  Turiaf though not a polished player was decent for the Knicks last year and now can’t even get off the bench.  Chalmers I think he’s overrated on defense Rondo has carved him up and Collison had big moments the last series.  Norris Cole after a nice couple regular season games hasn’t done much in the playoffs he’s a rookie and drafted 28th for a reason.

The whole iso thing with guys like Kobe is different he’s so much more clutch than Lebron and Wade.  In late game situations he doesn’t miss free throws and he uses the 3 pointers was a weapon in the 4th quarter.  Kobe has never had to deal with another dominant perimter player.  His role players have been better than Lebrons look at Fisher, Horry, Artest, Ariza even Jordan Hill this year in the playoffs was solid. 

Problem with Miami is they are soft and small.  Spoelstra is overrated or he’s just a good coach not great forget the pressure he just doesn’t run good plays.  For all the talk of Miami being so great on D they couldn’t stop Boston the last 5 minutes in the game and gave up 54 pts in the 2nd half.  Imagine what San Antonio or OKC would do against them.  They don’t play well in close game and the lack of desperation last night didn’t help.

[CodySLCParticipant]

Its easy to blame the coach, but i think part or most of the blame should be on the players for not executing down the stretch.

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