[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

 Often times you see NBA teams dance the rebuilding dance but look terrible.  They get 1 young piece and think "well there we go, time to win a ring now."  Then they start adding vets and compliments that just don’t work out right.  Team has no identity and spend the next 5 years as the 8th seed or 9th place team but never getting over the hump.  Then their star gets tired of never getting it done and moves on.  It happens all the time.  The Magic are doing it right..  This team has a clear identity and a direction they are headed.  I love it.  

First, they traded for Tobias Harrris when the Bucks had given up on him.  Harris was looking for his spot in the league and the Magic asked him what he wanted to do and where he thought he fit best.  "Scoring PF/SF."  Bam, breakout year.  Second asked Vucavic same question. "Rebounding C."  Boom, breakout player.  Oladipo, same question. "Defensive PG/SG."  Runner up in rookie of the year.  Now they take 2 guys that I think are great, Peyton and Gordon, who will fit great next to these other guys.  Peyton is the defending/slashing guard with good decision making that lets Dipo play off the ball more since his decision making wasn’t very good.  And they get Gordon who is a defending SF/PF that is a great compliment to Harris.  Harris isn’t much of a defender but he isn’t terrible.  Now, Gordon can defender the better player at SF or PF and give Harris the other.  They are compliments.  Here is what your seeing with the Magic:

They are rebuilding with players, not positions.

Peyton and Oladipo are simply "guards." Harris, Harkless, and Gordon are simply "forwards." Vucavic and O’Quinn are simply "bigs." When you box a guy in, he can only grow as big as the box lets him. But when you give him some room, his growth is unlimited.

[ballislyfe25Participant]

Very well said, especially that they have a clear identity and direction and that they are rebuilding with players as opposed to positions. They have a true starting five of young players, all of whom seem to compliment each other well as a unit. The backcourt has the potential to be one of the most athletic and defensively gifted in the Eastern conference. Elfrid Payton’s decision making and "true point guard" qualities will benefit Victor Oladpio and open up driving lanes for him to attack off the ball. Aaron Gordon and Tobias Harris should compliment each other very well on both ends of the floor, as you illustrated.

The only problem most people see with this team is that, despite entering the third year of rebuilding, they do not have a player with superstar potential. Oladipo could be that guy, possibly Aaron Gordon if his offensive game really comes around, but no one that screams this guy can lead us to the playoffs and possibly furthur.

However, they may develop into such a well rounded and balanced unit that it may not matter. We saw the Detroit Pistions win a championship in 2004 with no clear cut superstar, just five players who fit the "2nd or 3rd best player on a championship team" mold. The Channing Frye signing could help this team if Payton and Oladipo can consistently beat their man. His veteran prescence will help in the locker room and his contract (despite being overpaid) will not impact their ability to sign these young players when the time comes, as the salary cap is set to increase and the extensions will be signed/kick in when his contract is in its last year or expired.

[ballislyfe25Participant]

Very well said, especially that they have a clear identity and direction and that they are rebuilding with players as opposed to positions. They have a true starting five of young players, all of whom seem to compliment each other well as a unit. The backcourt has the potential to be one of the most athletic and defensively gifted in the Eastern conference. Elfrid Payton’s decision making and "true point guard" qualities will benefit Victor Oladpio and open up driving lanes for him to attack off the ball. Aaron Gordon and Tobias Harris should compliment each other very well on both ends of the floor, as you illustrated.

The only problem most people see with this team is that, despite entering the third year of rebuilding, they do not have a player with superstar potential. Oladipo could be that guy, possibly Aaron Gordon if his offensive game really comes around, but no one that screams this guy can lead us to the playoffs and possibly furthur.

However, they may develop into such a well rounded and balanced unit that it may not matter. We saw the Detroit Pistions win a championship in 2004 with no clear cut superstar, just five players who fit the "2nd or 3rd best player on a championship team" mold. The Channing Frye signing could help this team if Payton and Oladipo can consistently beat their man. His veteran prescence will help in the locker room and his contract (despite being overpaid) will not impact their ability to sign these young players when the time comes, as the salary cap is set to increase and the extensions will be signed/kick in when his contract is in its last year or expired.

[providencefriars1Participant]

Orlando has a nice core with pieces that compliment each other but they still need to develop. Orlando could add a shot blocking big in next years draft but other than that they have their assets. It could be two or three more years until they make the playoffs. It’ll be interesting to see if the fans are patient enough for 5 years of losing

[providencefriars1Participant]

Orlando has a nice core with pieces that compliment each other but they still need to develop. Orlando could add a shot blocking big in next years draft but other than that they have their assets. It could be two or three more years until they make the playoffs. It’ll be interesting to see if the fans are patient enough for 5 years of losing

[sweaterflexParticipant]

 A lot of these players individually are very interesting, but most of them require very specialized complementary parts.  Payton and Gordon can’t shoot and need floor spacers around them at all times.  Neither Vuc nor Frye are rim protectors down low, and they don’t even really have anyone who will develop in to one.  The team has the upside of an elite perimeter defense, and maybe the lack of interior defense won’t matter quite as much.  Unless the team forces a lot of turnovers and gets in to transition quickly it’s hard to envision them having an above average offense for years.  I like Jacque Vaughn as a coach, hopefully he’ll get the chance to keep developing the players.

[sweaterflexParticipant]

 A lot of these players individually are very interesting, but most of them require very specialized complementary parts.  Payton and Gordon can’t shoot and need floor spacers around them at all times.  Neither Vuc nor Frye are rim protectors down low, and they don’t even really have anyone who will develop in to one.  The team has the upside of an elite perimeter defense, and maybe the lack of interior defense won’t matter quite as much.  Unless the team forces a lot of turnovers and gets in to transition quickly it’s hard to envision them having an above average offense for years.  I like Jacque Vaughn as a coach, hopefully he’ll get the chance to keep developing the players.

[slash787Participant]

I have to respectfully disagree. I loved what the Magic were doing up until this offseason. 

The Gordon pick that high is very questionable. The Magic’s entire off season is very quesitonable. They first give Afflalo away for Fournier to clear cap space and room. They then draft Gordon 4th overall ahead of Exum. They give up a 1st rounder and Saric to get Payton. They then sign Ben Gordon for $4.5M. Then they sign Channing Frye to muddy the waters for Gordon’s development. Overall it has been a very confusing and bad off season for the Magic. If they were going to pay Frye all of that money why wouldn’t they just keep Afflalo? Makes no sense.

[slash787Participant]

I have to respectfully disagree. I loved what the Magic were doing up until this offseason. 

The Gordon pick that high is very questionable. The Magic’s entire off season is very quesitonable. They first give Afflalo away for Fournier to clear cap space and room. They then draft Gordon 4th overall ahead of Exum. They give up a 1st rounder and Saric to get Payton. They then sign Ben Gordon for $4.5M. Then they sign Channing Frye to muddy the waters for Gordon’s development. Overall it has been a very confusing and bad off season for the Magic. If they were going to pay Frye all of that money why wouldn’t they just keep Afflalo? Makes no sense.

[GrandmamaParticipant]

Exactly. Not a fan of drafting Gordon over Exum one bit.  And the Channing Frye deal is a head scratcher.  

[GrandmamaParticipant]

Exactly. Not a fan of drafting Gordon over Exum one bit.  And the Channing Frye deal is a head scratcher.  

[IhateusernamesParticipant]

 I hate what they’re doing this off season. They spent all they’re cap money on Ben Gordon who they could’ve got for the minimum and Channing Frye who a lesser player than Spencer Hawes who got $9 million less.

i like Aaron Gordon but not for the Magic. Exum is a potential franchise changer. 

The only way this makes any sense is if they’re pulling a Philly and tryin to tank for next years draft also and get Jahlil Okafor or Mudiay

[IhateusernamesParticipant]

 I hate what they’re doing this off season. They spent all they’re cap money on Ben Gordon who they could’ve got for the minimum and Channing Frye who a lesser player than Spencer Hawes who got $9 million less.

i like Aaron Gordon but not for the Magic. Exum is a potential franchise changer. 

The only way this makes any sense is if they’re pulling a Philly and tryin to tank for next years draft also and get Jahlil Okafor or Mudiay

[ConezdParticipant]

Very wrong. You seeing (or anyone else for that matter) that Dante Exum as a better prospect than Aaron Gordon is just your opinion. He is extremely unproven. I’m not saying he won’t end up being a better player but there’s no reason to assume that is a no brainer. I think the magic didn’t take the Hornets offer of Henderson because Henderson would require more playing time and that is not what hennigan wants. He wants the young guys out there playing. They pick up Ben Gordon and Frye to fill the lack of shooting need and also bring in some veterans who aren’t going to be playing a ton of minutes. Ben Gordon’s contract can be off the books after this season so it’s not a terrible overpay. And it’s not even a bad contract. 4.5 mil for a guy who is proven and fills an exact need. Fryers contract stinks but it’s only 3 years with the team option for year 4 which is right around when these young guys will be after new contracts so again, not a terrible deal considering he also fills a huge need in shooting the ball. I’m personally higher on Payton than I am on Exum, which puts me in the minority but I don’t see how they are very different from each other. Both are big, long PGs who excel at pushing the ball and getting to the rim. Both lack great shooting ability. Both are good playmakers and passers. I just see Payton as the much better defender and he’s proven he can compete with top talent more often. Played very well against just about every major college team he faced his 3 years at ULL. And lastly, I think rim protection won’t big a huge problem since A Gordon is decent at that as well as Dwayne Dedmon. Desmond has shown this summer league that he deserves some more playing time. 

[ConezdParticipant]

Very wrong. You seeing (or anyone else for that matter) that Dante Exum as a better prospect than Aaron Gordon is just your opinion. He is extremely unproven. I’m not saying he won’t end up being a better player but there’s no reason to assume that is a no brainer. I think the magic didn’t take the Hornets offer of Henderson because Henderson would require more playing time and that is not what hennigan wants. He wants the young guys out there playing. They pick up Ben Gordon and Frye to fill the lack of shooting need and also bring in some veterans who aren’t going to be playing a ton of minutes. Ben Gordon’s contract can be off the books after this season so it’s not a terrible overpay. And it’s not even a bad contract. 4.5 mil for a guy who is proven and fills an exact need. Fryers contract stinks but it’s only 3 years with the team option for year 4 which is right around when these young guys will be after new contracts so again, not a terrible deal considering he also fills a huge need in shooting the ball. I’m personally higher on Payton than I am on Exum, which puts me in the minority but I don’t see how they are very different from each other. Both are big, long PGs who excel at pushing the ball and getting to the rim. Both lack great shooting ability. Both are good playmakers and passers. I just see Payton as the much better defender and he’s proven he can compete with top talent more often. Played very well against just about every major college team he faced his 3 years at ULL. And lastly, I think rim protection won’t big a huge problem since A Gordon is decent at that as well as Dwayne Dedmon. Desmond has shown this summer league that he deserves some more playing time. 

[mixtape2003Participant]

yea they should have accepted the hornets offer on the 23rd pick and henderson  for affalo if they was going to over pay and sign ben gordon and frye. The 1st rounder they traded to get payton is protected and will end up being a 2nd rounder but still questionable moves so far.

[mixtape2003Participant]

yea they should have accepted the hornets offer on the 23rd pick and henderson  for affalo if they was going to over pay and sign ben gordon and frye. The 1st rounder they traded to get payton is protected and will end up being a 2nd rounder but still questionable moves so far.

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

Elfrid Payton is a distributing point guard who is not a shooter. You can see it in his form as well as the 27 percent mark from three and 61 percent from the line assembled over his Lafayette career. Aaron Gordon is a position-less player with a poor shot. He will not be strong enough to guard power forwards, and does not have the offensive game of a wing. Victor Oladipo was 33 percent on shots that were not at the rim last year. Tobias Harris and Maurice Harkless were 36 percent on shots that were not at the rim. This is not how you work a rebuilding project. Pieces have to fit. By putting together this many young players with the same obvious shortcomings, you are not putting them in a position to succeed. Channing Frye can shoot, but he is not part of the long-term solution at 31 years old. Vucevic, O’Quinn, and Nicholson all can shoot as well, but currently do not have range that extends to the arc. Creating an inverted offense does not maximize the strengths of Vucevic, O’Quinn, or Nicholson. Having the ability to step out is an asset, but that is not their reason for being in the NBA. They tried to keep Nicholson on the perimeter last year more so than in a rookie season, and was less effective as a result. When Vucevic was a rookie in Philadelphia, they pulled their big men outside to create spacing, and when he hit the rookie wall and stopped making shots it led to a team thinking that dealing a 6′ 11" 260 lbs. skilled 22-year old was a good idea. It is possible Ben Gordon is a reclamation project after falling out of favor Charlotte, but he is not a long-term solution as he is the same age as Frye. It is possible Evan Fournier will matter much more than his lack of mention would lead one to believe. With his first extended run in a lost Denver season, he was able to shoot from deep. He was not a great defender, and was out of his comfort zone when he had to handle the ball, but 38 percent from three can keep him in the league, especially now that he is on a club that could be easily among the worst in that category.

Defense is the show me side. In the second half of the season when they bought out Davis, played Jameer less, and let the young guys take over, they gave up 103.1 per game with only two games where they held opponents to less than 90. In the first half, while far from good, they gave up 97.5. Someone has to explain to me how a team with so many poor shooters is going to win games in the 100s. I remember people trying to talk up the defensive merits of the Bucks last year. I’m hoping those thoughts have been purged from history. The point is that while the Magic have guys who have the physical makeup to be quality defenders, it is not the same thing as actually stopping people.

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

Elfrid Payton is a distributing point guard who is not a shooter. You can see it in his form as well as the 27 percent mark from three and 61 percent from the line assembled over his Lafayette career. Aaron Gordon is a position-less player with a poor shot. He will not be strong enough to guard power forwards, and does not have the offensive game of a wing. Victor Oladipo was 33 percent on shots that were not at the rim last year. Tobias Harris and Maurice Harkless were 36 percent on shots that were not at the rim. This is not how you work a rebuilding project. Pieces have to fit. By putting together this many young players with the same obvious shortcomings, you are not putting them in a position to succeed. Channing Frye can shoot, but he is not part of the long-term solution at 31 years old. Vucevic, O’Quinn, and Nicholson all can shoot as well, but currently do not have range that extends to the arc. Creating an inverted offense does not maximize the strengths of Vucevic, O’Quinn, or Nicholson. Having the ability to step out is an asset, but that is not their reason for being in the NBA. They tried to keep Nicholson on the perimeter last year more so than in a rookie season, and was less effective as a result. When Vucevic was a rookie in Philadelphia, they pulled their big men outside to create spacing, and when he hit the rookie wall and stopped making shots it led to a team thinking that dealing a 6′ 11" 260 lbs. skilled 22-year old was a good idea. It is possible Ben Gordon is a reclamation project after falling out of favor Charlotte, but he is not a long-term solution as he is the same age as Frye. It is possible Evan Fournier will matter much more than his lack of mention would lead one to believe. With his first extended run in a lost Denver season, he was able to shoot from deep. He was not a great defender, and was out of his comfort zone when he had to handle the ball, but 38 percent from three can keep him in the league, especially now that he is on a club that could be easily among the worst in that category.

Defense is the show me side. In the second half of the season when they bought out Davis, played Jameer less, and let the young guys take over, they gave up 103.1 per game with only two games where they held opponents to less than 90. In the first half, while far from good, they gave up 97.5. Someone has to explain to me how a team with so many poor shooters is going to win games in the 100s. I remember people trying to talk up the defensive merits of the Bucks last year. I’m hoping those thoughts have been purged from history. The point is that while the Magic have guys who have the physical makeup to be quality defenders, it is not the same thing as actually stopping people.

[juves4783Participant]

drafting guys that can’t shoot to play with guys that can’t shoot…

trading an established vet like afflalo for fournier and roy devyn marble…

signing frye and gordon to overvalued contracts…

grade: F

 

 

 

[juves4783Participant]

oh, i also forgot to mention that the magic got played out by the 76ers.  to give up a 1st round pick to move up 2 spots is pretty sad….but that’s what happens when you don’t address a need with your 1st pick.  should of drafted a pg first and then best available.

[juves4783Participant]

oh, i also forgot to mention that the magic got played out by the 76ers.  to give up a 1st round pick to move up 2 spots is pretty sad….but that’s what happens when you don’t address a need with your 1st pick.  should of drafted a pg first and then best available.

[juves4783Participant]

drafting guys that can’t shoot to play with guys that can’t shoot…

trading an established vet like afflalo for fournier and roy devyn marble…

signing frye and gordon to overvalued contracts…

grade: F

 

 

 

[SwatLakeCityParticipant]

 I like the rebuilding plan the Magic have too. I understand why they didn’t accept the Henderson deal previously discussed in this post. The only concern I have is shooting. Payton, Oladipo, Harris, Gordon, Vucevic would be the young starting lineup going forward. There’s a lot of defense in Payton, Oladipo, Harris, and Gordon, good rebounding in Gordon and Vucevic, but you can’t win with just steller defense and rebounding, eventually you need to score. And that’s where this starting lineup struggles. Vucevic is their only scorer, (and to an extent, Harris) and I don’t you think you can depend on Vucevic to do all the scoring. They need more scoring balance. The good thing is Gordon’s shot is improving. In most of his pre-draft workouts he shot the ball well, better than most scouts thought he could. (Utah would have drafted him at 5 if Exum wasn’t still available)

I do like the additions of Ben Gordon and Channing Frye. They are both strong shooters at positions that the Magic will need shooting at going forward, SG and PF. They don’t take up to much time from the developing youngsters, which is exactly what Afflalo did and what Henderson would have caused. If the Magic accepted the Henderson, they would have essentially given up on Oladipo. Which would be very foolish considering they just drafted him in 2013, and he’s a prized youngster. Henderson is young too, and he is still developing so he would take playing time (which is essentially developing time for Oladipo) Its too soon for the Magic to give up on Oladipo, so of course they would decline the Henderson deal. But Ben Gordon does not take playing time away from Oladipo. He’s a veteran who has dealt with some growing pains. He is a shooter, so hopefully he’ll be able to help Oladipo with his shot. The only problem is, once Gordon’s contract is up will Oladipo have developed enough that he can shoot as well as defend? 

Same with Frye. He’s a veteran who has had some success with young teams (specifically Phoenix). The fact that he is veteran, means he won’t take playing time away from Gordon. He can also shoot and I hope he can teach Gordon that shooting ability thus improving Gordon’s shooting even more. But with him also comes the downside of having to hope that by the time Frye’s contract is up, Gordon will have developed enough that he too will be able to shoot as well as defend. 

I don’t understand what the beef is with Roy Devyn Marble. He’s young, yet he has enough college experience that he can come in and play right away. He can shoot, as well as defend. He doesn’t have much potential, so he’s not going to take playing time away from Oladipo or anybody else. I liked that draft pick. It makes sense with the Magic signing Ben Gordon. Once Gordon’s contract is up, Marble will step in and provide the same presence that Ben provided. The only offseason move I didn’t like was the Magic acquiring Fournier in a trade. But in the end they had to trade Afflalo who was costing too much, and took playing time away from Oladipo. So in the trade they ended up getting back Fournier. I expect them to include Fournier in another trade (possibly around the trade deadline) or waive him in a year or two. 

I understand that Aaron Gordon, Elfrid Payton, Roy Devyn Marble, Ben Gordon, Channing Frye, and Evan Fournier are not the prized free agents (or draft picks) that everyone loves, but they aren’t bad players themselves. They weren’t going to get Lebron, Melo, Bosh, Wade…etc. Frye and Ben Gordon may have just come off bad contracts (so they have a bad reputation) but that’s the point. They just came off those bad contracts. They didn’t sign another bad contract. They signed reasonable contracts. I liken Magic’s rebuilding path to the Jazz’s rebuilding plan. Get the prized youngsters via the draft, then develop them using veterans that won’t take away from their playing time. I love the Jazz’s rebuilding idea, so naturally I like any team that looks to match it. A similar rebuilding plan to the Jazz’s also makes sense considering the Magic have a former jazzman in Jacque Vaughn as their coach.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hacker90Participant]

Frye was making less money on his last contract (5yr/30mil) then he’s going to make on the contract the Magic gave him (4yr/32mil). If you thought his last contract was bad, then this contract is horrible.

[Hacker90Participant]

Frye was making less money on his last contract (5yr/30mil) then he’s going to make on the contract the Magic gave him (4yr/32mil). If you thought his last contract was bad, then this contract is horrible.

[SwatLakeCityParticipant]

 I like the rebuilding plan the Magic have too. I understand why they didn’t accept the Henderson deal previously discussed in this post. The only concern I have is shooting. Payton, Oladipo, Harris, Gordon, Vucevic would be the young starting lineup going forward. There’s a lot of defense in Payton, Oladipo, Harris, and Gordon, good rebounding in Gordon and Vucevic, but you can’t win with just steller defense and rebounding, eventually you need to score. And that’s where this starting lineup struggles. Vucevic is their only scorer, (and to an extent, Harris) and I don’t you think you can depend on Vucevic to do all the scoring. They need more scoring balance. The good thing is Gordon’s shot is improving. In most of his pre-draft workouts he shot the ball well, better than most scouts thought he could. (Utah would have drafted him at 5 if Exum wasn’t still available)

I do like the additions of Ben Gordon and Channing Frye. They are both strong shooters at positions that the Magic will need shooting at going forward, SG and PF. They don’t take up to much time from the developing youngsters, which is exactly what Afflalo did and what Henderson would have caused. If the Magic accepted the Henderson, they would have essentially given up on Oladipo. Which would be very foolish considering they just drafted him in 2013, and he’s a prized youngster. Henderson is young too, and he is still developing so he would take playing time (which is essentially developing time for Oladipo) Its too soon for the Magic to give up on Oladipo, so of course they would decline the Henderson deal. But Ben Gordon does not take playing time away from Oladipo. He’s a veteran who has dealt with some growing pains. He is a shooter, so hopefully he’ll be able to help Oladipo with his shot. The only problem is, once Gordon’s contract is up will Oladipo have developed enough that he can shoot as well as defend? 

Same with Frye. He’s a veteran who has had some success with young teams (specifically Phoenix). The fact that he is veteran, means he won’t take playing time away from Gordon. He can also shoot and I hope he can teach Gordon that shooting ability thus improving Gordon’s shooting even more. But with him also comes the downside of having to hope that by the time Frye’s contract is up, Gordon will have developed enough that he too will be able to shoot as well as defend. 

I don’t understand what the beef is with Roy Devyn Marble. He’s young, yet he has enough college experience that he can come in and play right away. He can shoot, as well as defend. He doesn’t have much potential, so he’s not going to take playing time away from Oladipo or anybody else. I liked that draft pick. It makes sense with the Magic signing Ben Gordon. Once Gordon’s contract is up, Marble will step in and provide the same presence that Ben provided. The only offseason move I didn’t like was the Magic acquiring Fournier in a trade. But in the end they had to trade Afflalo who was costing too much, and took playing time away from Oladipo. So in the trade they ended up getting back Fournier. I expect them to include Fournier in another trade (possibly around the trade deadline) or waive him in a year or two. 

I understand that Aaron Gordon, Elfrid Payton, Roy Devyn Marble, Ben Gordon, Channing Frye, and Evan Fournier are not the prized free agents (or draft picks) that everyone loves, but they aren’t bad players themselves. They weren’t going to get Lebron, Melo, Bosh, Wade…etc. Frye and Ben Gordon may have just come off bad contracts (so they have a bad reputation) but that’s the point. They just came off those bad contracts. They didn’t sign another bad contract. They signed reasonable contracts. I liken Magic’s rebuilding path to the Jazz’s rebuilding plan. Get the prized youngsters via the draft, then develop them using veterans that won’t take away from their playing time. I love the Jazz’s rebuilding idea, so naturally I like any team that looks to match it. A similar rebuilding plan to the Jazz’s also makes sense considering the Magic have a former jazzman in Jacque Vaughn as their coach.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sewok15Participant]

The Payton trade made no sense to me. It’s not like the Sixers or Nuggets (or bulls after the trade) were going to take him. The only thing I can think of is another team was going to trade up to get him but I can’t imagine who it would be.

[Sewok15Participant]

The Payton trade made no sense to me. It’s not like the Sixers or Nuggets (or bulls after the trade) were going to take him. The only thing I can think of is another team was going to trade up to get him but I can’t imagine who it would be.

[Author]

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