[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

When I think of a guard, I cannot remember too many all around guards. Micheal Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Dennis Johnson and Gary Payton are the only 4 off the top of my head.

That’s right, these were the only guards who were scorers, rebounders, passers and defenders. How come when we discuss Point Guards all time, I see Payton like 8th? That man should be ranked at worst 4th.

Not only did he lock Jordan down in Seattle’s only wins in the 96 Finals but look at these impressive statlines.

1995- 19-4-7
1996- 21-4-7
1997- 19-4-8
1998- 21-5-8
1999- 24-6-8 ( One of the best PG seasons ever)
2000- 23-4-8
2001- 22-5-9
2002- 20-5-4
2003- 14-4-5 ( 4th option behind Malone, Kobe and Shaq)

What do you think? I believe Payton was not only the best PG of the 1990’s but a top 4 PG all time.

[the I in winParticipant]

He was very good, usually PG’s are good at getting steals but Payton was by far the best defender and pick pocket of his time. He was a scorer that made people look stupid and a passer that made Shawn Kemp look not as stupid.

[TRC1991Participant]

im not sure in 64 years of basketball (the nba was founded in 1946) you can say theres only been 4 “all around” guards to play the game…oscar robertson, jason kidd, magic johnson, etc. I usually like your posts but this one kind of confuses me a tad bit

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

I feel if you traded Gary Payton for Stockon and gave GP a player like Karl Malone? He would have won a title.

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

I said I couldn’t remember too many all around guards.

Oscar and Magic couldn’t defend well and Jason Kidd is a maybe. I’ll put him on the list.

[TONYDABOSS77Participant]

he’s up there

[TONYDABOSS77Participant]

he’s up there

[JJeff6Participant]

one of the great scoring pgs of all time.

[Tyreke JohnsonParticipant]

By far the best defensive PG of all time, and it could be argued hes the best all around PG as well i mean who else could challenge him? I say Magic is the best PG of all time ( who doesnt?) but Payton to me is the most talented all around PG to ever play the game, he was just such an amazing player to watch.

[Mr. 19134Participant]

You may be right I love Gary Payton, being from Philly this city loves PG’s that D up. Kyle Lowry for instance plays exactly like most young guards in the city hard, tough nosed, and in ur face on D. Gary Payton has few peers when when it comes to defense and scoring ability. Kidd can’t score like Payton could so he not even competition. Isiah Thomas was right there with Payton but I still think I would take Payton in his prime over Thomas. Magic couldn’t guard other great points, he just couldn’t he was 6’9. Kevin Johnson and Tim Hardaway didn’t have the all around game Payton had. The more I think I think you’re right nobody really had Paytons combination of defense, scoring, and passing ability.

[llperez]

i think payton is the best pg i ever saw. I would rank Magic ahead of him based on career accomplishments. But Ill put Gary at #2. His teams were always competitive and he had zero weaknesses.

[knicksfan7Participant]

The Glove made trash talking an art. He was a king at that. He had no weaknesses, and was great for the game. It’s hard to say where I would rank him, but he is definitely under rated.

I also believe he is the only Point Guard to ever win DPOY.

[IknoBall12Participant]

was sick. he was a great player no doubt. but idk if hes the best all around pg 2 ever play the game.

[NYK2010Participant]

Payton better than Kidd not sure about that, Payton was a better scorer definately.
Kidd has a SG body but still plays very good defense and for a long time as well he’s a 4 time All-NBA 1st team defender.
Kidd averaged 13.6 pts, 9.2 asts, 40.3% shooter, 35% on 3’s and 2 steals a game for 16 years.
Payton averaged 16.3 pts, 6.7 asts, 46.6% shooter, 31.7% on 3’s and 1.8 steals a game for 17 years.

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

Kidd averaged 13.6 pts, 9.2 asts, 40.3% shooter, 35% on 3’s and 2 steals a game for 16 years.
Payton averaged 16.3 pts, 6.7 asts, 46.6% shooter, 31.7% on 3’s and 1.8 steals a game for 17 years.

True but take off those 2 terrible seasons with Miami? His numbers would have been closer to 18 points and 8 assists.

[rtbtParticipant]

1. The best PG to every play the game was Magic! That’s the end of the debate!

2. When you talk about the greatest all around guards in the history of the game and leave out Jerry West, you are making a huge mistake.

3. If you want to say Gary Payton was the best defensive PG of all time, I would almost agree, but not quite. I think Clyde Frazier was as good as it gets on defense. If you want to call it a toss up between Clyde and Gary Payton, I wouldn’t argue.

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

I would take Payton over Fraizer.

Also, Magic Johnson couldn’t play defense. He got lit up alot in the 1980’s.

[rtbtParticipant]

knicksboy32 said, “Magic Johnson couldn’t play defense.”

1. He didn’t have to play defense on the Lakers. Besides, in those days there were very few PGs who were scoring threats.

2. Gary Payton couldn’t pass and run an offense like Magic. It wasn’t even close. I can’t believe anyone who watched their careers could even think of debating this point.

3. And how could you leave out Jerry West on the list of greatest all around guards?

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

I forgot Jerry West and J-Kidd but in defense: I did say off the top of the head lol

Magic Johnson didn’t need to play D because the Lakers were stacked. He would play passing lanes and that’s it. Had Magic been a SF, he would have gotten killed for playing terrible defense. In his prime, he couldn’t stop Dennis Johnson when they played. He couldn’t beat a Isiah Thomas either.

Gary was not the passer like Magic, true there but run a offense? I tend to disagree. For Magic, you look alot better running a Offense when you have 2 HOF’s with you and Bryon Scott scoring. I’m not saying Payton would have done better but his numbers would have been better IMO.

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

I understand but there’s a difference between couldn’t, wasn’t and didn’t

Magic Johnson didn’t have to play defense in LA
Magic Johnson couldn’t guard good SG’s and SF’s
Magic Johnson wasn’t a good defender

Would you agree or disagree on all those statements?

[rtbtParticipant]

knicksboy32, you raised the million dollar question that we can never answer.

Would Magic be the greatest PG who ever played the game if he was on a team like Golden State or the Clippers? Hmmmmmmmmmm, I really can’t answer this one, but I’m guessing the answer might be no.

Could Gary Payton run the offense like Magic if he played with the Lakers?
On this one I’m confident the answer is NO!

Of course Magic didn’t play defense as PG, that isn’t even a debate. But I partially disagree with you. At least he could guard SGs, SF and PFs., something Payton couldn’t do.

And let me repeat, he didn’t have to play defense on the Lakers.I know, the Lakers won because they had a ton of talent. But Magic was like the conductor of a symphony orchestra. Yes it’s great to have elite talent, but unless you have a conductor to synchronize the entire operation, you probably won’t win.

[rtbtParticipant]

knicksboy32, please re-read my post above your’s because I went back and edited it.

Magic Johnson didn’t have to play defense in LA – Yes

Magic Johnson couldn’t guard good SG’s and SF’s – No, he could at least handle big SGs, Some SFs, and some PFs. Gary Payton didn’t have that kind of versatility because of his size.

Magic Johnson wasn’t a good defender – Yes

Would you agree or disagree on all those statements?

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

I agree.

[NYK2010Participant]

Kidd averaged 13.6 pts, 9.2 asts, 40.3% shooter, 35% on 3’s and 2 steals a game for 16 years.
Payton averaged 16.3 pts, 6.7 asts, 46.6% shooter, 31.7% on 3’s and 1.8 steals a game for 17 years.

True but take off those 2 terrible seasons with Miami? His numbers would have been closer to 18 points and 8 assists.

It would be closer to 7 asts a game, he averaged over 8 a game in 6 years out of 17.
Surprisngly he wasn’t a big 3pt threat and his FT % at 73 is a lil weak for a PG.

[llperez]

Hard to argue Magic as the #1 pg of all time. But if I could right now pick any pg to have ever played in their prime to run my team, I would pick Gary Payton. Pg’s are much quicker today and Magic couldnt do much defensively back then. He would probably have to play sf in todays game. But he won and 5 titles and 9 trips to the finals speaks for itself. Glove did the best he could with some pretty solid teams as well though. And despite not being a good percentage shooter from 3, he was a defenite threat from out there and hit 200+ 3’s in numerous seasons. Gary was just so sound and made solid decisions with the ball all the time. But comparing him and magic is a no lose situation.

As for gary and kidd, for many years in the late 90’s and early 2000-s they were the top 2 pg’s and were compared to each other. I gave the slight edge to gary. Kidd started to take the lead around like 2002 when he led them to the finlas and gary started slipping a little. BUt before that, gary was not only a better scoring threat, but a better defender as well.

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