[NJHooper95Participant]

I am really in disbelief at the disrespect Irving gets on this forum. There is now way that this guy is not a top 20 player in the league. He gets criticized because he isn’t the greatest defender or assist guy, but never praised for his strengths.  Last time I checked Magic could barely guard his shadow, J Kidd in his prime couldn’t throw the ball in the ocean, Steve Nash was arguably the worst defender at his position ever, but yet they are all the best of the best at their position  because of what they can do at a high level. 

Irving is an elite shooter, elite finisher, elite ball handler, and as clutch as they come. This is who he is, he is not going to be a high assist guy or great defender, but he is an unstoppable offensive weapon that is disrespected because of what he doesn’t do. Iverson wasn’t a big assistb guy or great defender, though he was a big steals guy. But we remember AI for being a warrior and offensive force. 

Then there is the John Wall is better, how? Wall can’t shoot, he is more athletic, but Irivng is still a better finisher. It’s really just situational. If you want a stop or a good pass, wall is your guy, if you need a big shot or strong finish then Irving is your guy. Wall is the more pure pg and a better floor general and Irving is by far the better scorer and more clutch of the two.

[TarHeelRavenParticipant]

 Hmmmmm…..The Kyrie Irving debate continues.  Kyrie is an elite offensive talent.  He doesn’t make any of his teammates better and doesn’t play good defense.  You say that you don’t understand why people think Wall is better but in my opinion, Wall is a much better overall player.  Kyrie is a better shooter but that’s it.  Wall is a far superior defender, he’s an electric athlete, and one of the best passers in the game.  He has a mean competitive streak.  Kyrie didn’t win jack until Lebron came to town.  His teams were absolutely awful,  He put up numbers, but very few wins.  Wall is more of a winner than Kyrie, at the collegiate and NBA level.  Also, Kyrie is never healthy.  Wall played through a fractured hand against the Hawks last year. Kyrie is charmin soft compared to Wall.  If I was starting an NBA team and needed a PG, I’d pick Wall over Kyrie anyday and it wouldn’t be close.  If you want wins, making teammates better, playing lock down D and a tough as nails competitor, you go with Wall.  If you want to see And 1 moves, you’d pick Kyrie. 

[TarHeelRavenParticipant]

 Hmmmmm…..The Kyrie Irving debate continues.  Kyrie is an elite offensive talent.  He doesn’t make any of his teammates better and doesn’t play good defense.  You say that you don’t understand why people think Wall is better but in my opinion, Wall is a much better overall player.  Kyrie is a better shooter but that’s it.  Wall is a far superior defender, he’s an electric athlete, and one of the best passers in the game.  He has a mean competitive streak.  Kyrie didn’t win jack until Lebron came to town.  His teams were absolutely awful,  He put up numbers, but very few wins.  Wall is more of a winner than Kyrie, at the collegiate and NBA level.  Also, Kyrie is never healthy.  Wall played through a fractured hand against the Hawks last year. Kyrie is charmin soft compared to Wall.  If I was starting an NBA team and needed a PG, I’d pick Wall over Kyrie anyday and it wouldn’t be close.  If you want wins, making teammates better, playing lock down D and a tough as nails competitor, you go with Wall.  If you want to see And 1 moves, you’d pick Kyrie. 

[Pro-21Participant]

 LeBron actually shot like 5% better with Kyrie Irving on the floor and so did Kevin Love so … Idk what you’re talking about, sounds like an outdated bball purist narrative to me. 

I would take Steve Nash far before I ever take John Wall. Kyrie and John Wall actually had similar team records at similar ages, with Wall having Nene, Beal and Ariza at one point, all much better than Thompson, Waiters, Andy V … etc. 

Wall is very good, but he has yet to shoot above 40% in the playoffs yet, and for a franchise player, that is simply not going to cut it. Your best player needs to be able to get you 25 any night on at least 42% from the field, and Wall hasn’t shown the ability to do that when it matters most. That;s why the wizards lost to the pacers in 2014. Kyrie would have absolutely shredded the Pacers defense. 

Irving’s injuries are a problem, but thats about it as far as him as a player. He is definitely a winner, he had several standout playoff games even though he wasnt better than 85% health wise. I think Irving fits better on more teams because of his ability to score the ball and space the floor with elite shooting. He can play with the ball and off it because he can shoot. If wall doesnt have the ball in his own hands at all times, his effectiveness drops drastically. He would be a horrible match w. another ball dominant player.

Ok so your ending points

1. Wins: better team their whole careers, still lost in the second round. You can’t decide to ignore team circumstances when its convenient for your argument. So if we do things the way you do it: Kyrie Irving has made it to the NBA finals and John Wall hasn’t been to the ECF. Kyrie is a better "winner" then I guess, right?

2. Making Teammates better: Ok. this is fair, hes definitely a better passer. But if he were put on that cavs team that didn’t have any great shooters and needed him to score 22 ppg efficiently to win, he would be in trouble and probably have missed the playoffs too. As I said before, LeBron shoots wayyyyyy better with Irving on the floor. Point is, Irving is no Team Cancer, selfish player. 

3. Tough As Nails: It depends on what you mean. If you’re talking about psychologically, I don’t think we have any idea. They’ve both played through serious injuries. If you’re talking about purely physical, didn’t John Wall miss like, 41 games to years ago? That’s a lot, and he just missed a few very, very important playoff games due to his broken hand.

4. Lock down defender: He is a very good defender, but answer me this: Can John Wall guard Curry, Westbrook, Kyrie, CP3, Harden … etc. The answer is, if you look at their head-to-head matchups, a resounding NO. Can he score as well as they can to offset his inability to defend them? NOPE. He has yet to shoot above 40% from the field in the playoffs. 

Yes Kyrie has And 1 moves, but he also has a 58% true shooting percentage and scores much, MUCH more easily than John Wall.

I think Wall and Irving are great. But Irving’s offensive advantage over Wall is far more meaningful than Wall’s defensive advantage. Nobody can guard the best PGs, but Irving will score a lot of points on anyone, so at least he wont necessarily lose his matchup.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pro-21Participant]

 LeBron actually shot like 5% better with Kyrie Irving on the floor and so did Kevin Love so … Idk what you’re talking about, sounds like an outdated bball purist narrative to me. 

I would take Steve Nash far before I ever take John Wall. Kyrie and John Wall actually had similar team records at similar ages, with Wall having Nene, Beal and Ariza at one point, all much better than Thompson, Waiters, Andy V … etc. 

Wall is very good, but he has yet to shoot above 40% in the playoffs yet, and for a franchise player, that is simply not going to cut it. Your best player needs to be able to get you 25 any night on at least 42% from the field, and Wall hasn’t shown the ability to do that when it matters most. That;s why the wizards lost to the pacers in 2014. Kyrie would have absolutely shredded the Pacers defense. 

Irving’s injuries are a problem, but thats about it as far as him as a player. He is definitely a winner, he had several standout playoff games even though he wasnt better than 85% health wise. I think Irving fits better on more teams because of his ability to score the ball and space the floor with elite shooting. He can play with the ball and off it because he can shoot. If wall doesnt have the ball in his own hands at all times, his effectiveness drops drastically. He would be a horrible match w. another ball dominant player.

Ok so your ending points

1. Wins: better team their whole careers, still lost in the second round. You can’t decide to ignore team circumstances when its convenient for your argument. So if we do things the way you do it: Kyrie Irving has made it to the NBA finals and John Wall hasn’t been to the ECF. Kyrie is a better "winner" then I guess, right?

2. Making Teammates better: Ok. this is fair, hes definitely a better passer. But if he were put on that cavs team that didn’t have any great shooters and needed him to score 22 ppg efficiently to win, he would be in trouble and probably have missed the playoffs too. As I said before, LeBron shoots wayyyyyy better with Irving on the floor. Point is, Irving is no Team Cancer, selfish player. 

3. Tough As Nails: It depends on what you mean. If you’re talking about psychologically, I don’t think we have any idea. They’ve both played through serious injuries. If you’re talking about purely physical, didn’t John Wall miss like, 41 games to years ago? That’s a lot, and he just missed a few very, very important playoff games due to his broken hand.

4. Lock down defender: He is a very good defender, but answer me this: Can John Wall guard Curry, Westbrook, Kyrie, CP3, Harden … etc. The answer is, if you look at their head-to-head matchups, a resounding NO. Can he score as well as they can to offset his inability to defend them? NOPE. He has yet to shoot above 40% from the field in the playoffs. 

Yes Kyrie has And 1 moves, but he also has a 58% true shooting percentage and scores much, MUCH more easily than John Wall.

I think Wall and Irving are great. But Irving’s offensive advantage over Wall is far more meaningful than Wall’s defensive advantage. Nobody can guard the best PGs, but Irving will score a lot of points on anyone, so at least he wont necessarily lose his matchup.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[invalidParticipant]

wall makes his teammates better? like seriously who? dude is eating up the ball in his hands no sht he would also rock the stats. i dont like both to start on my team but id take irving if i have to choose. yes he didnt win but so has wall at the same age. 

[invalidParticipant]

wall makes his teammates better? like seriously who? dude is eating up the ball in his hands no sht he would also rock the stats. i dont like both to start on my team but id take irving if i have to choose. yes he didnt win but so has wall at the same age. 

[ChicagoCaseyParticipant]

Well, look up stats before you try to act like Wall does not make his teammates better. Look at Bradley Beal shooting numbers when John Wall on the court vs. off the court. Look at Trevor Ariza numbers when he was playing with Wall vs. when he wasn’t. Look at all the players John Wall played with and he elevated their game. For goodness sake he made Martell Webster get bank, he wasn’t good before he got to the Wizards. Other players you could look at is Drew Gooden, Rasual Butler and any other Wizards teammates. Don’t act like you know anything for a fact when you do not.

But, Irving never led his team to the playoffs, Wall did. Irving was likely headed to the lottery if LBJ didn’t arrive.

[ChicagoCaseyParticipant]

Well, look up stats before you try to act like Wall does not make his teammates better. Look at Bradley Beal shooting numbers when John Wall on the court vs. off the court. Look at Trevor Ariza numbers when he was playing with Wall vs. when he wasn’t. Look at all the players John Wall played with and he elevated their game. For goodness sake he made Martell Webster get bank, he wasn’t good before he got to the Wizards. Other players you could look at is Drew Gooden, Rasual Butler and any other Wizards teammates. Don’t act like you know anything for a fact when you do not.

But, Irving never led his team to the playoffs, Wall did. Irving was likely headed to the lottery if LBJ didn’t arrive.

[SkalAndJamalParticipant]

If anyone thinks Drew Gooden is in this league for any other reason but John Wall, they are tripping lol

[SkalAndJamalParticipant]

If anyone thinks Drew Gooden is in this league for any other reason but John Wall, they are tripping lol

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Can somebody post the actual clutch stats of both Kyrie Irving and John Wall? 

I know that based on actual numbers, Wall was a better finisher in the restricted (61% to 58%) and non-restricted (38% to 34%) areas last season. However, he’s not touching Irving when it comes to every other facet of shooting. There’s no denying that Irving is an elite scorer and shooter. Wall has improved in the mid-range though, where he’s at least shooting 40%. 

Both players have holes. Irving only plays one side of the floor and despite being a great shooter/scorer, relies on hero ball and doesn’t make his teammates better. His leadership is also questionable. Wall is a leader who plays both ends of the floor and looks to pass first, but he’s still a weak three-point shooter and turnover prone. 

Regardless, I don’t think it’s disrespectful to have Irving outside of the top 20. It’s extremely close. He’s at least in honorable mention. 

 

 

 

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Can somebody post the actual clutch stats of both Kyrie Irving and John Wall? 

I know that based on actual numbers, Wall was a better finisher in the restricted (61% to 58%) and non-restricted (38% to 34%) areas last season. However, he’s not touching Irving when it comes to every other facet of shooting. There’s no denying that Irving is an elite scorer and shooter. Wall has improved in the mid-range though, where he’s at least shooting 40%. 

Both players have holes. Irving only plays one side of the floor and despite being a great shooter/scorer, relies on hero ball and doesn’t make his teammates better. His leadership is also questionable. Wall is a leader who plays both ends of the floor and looks to pass first, but he’s still a weak three-point shooter and turnover prone. 

Regardless, I don’t think it’s disrespectful to have Irving outside of the top 20. It’s extremely close. He’s at least in honorable mention. 

 

 

 

[NBAjunkie81Participant]

 players but I believe it’s constructive…. I’m pretty old, my heroes were Dr. J, Magic, Larry Bird, Isaiah & Jordan… The old heads like my father, uncles & all their friends SWORE that Wilt Chamberlain took it easy on teams by averaging ONLY 50 ppg & 25 rpg… To them Michael Jordan was a one trick pony who could score but would Never win a Ring & Larry Bird was Only popular b/c he was white & THEY WERE WHITE!

 To them Oscar Robertson was a Super Hero & Bill Russell was the Greatest Leader since General Ulysees S. Grant & the young Stars that I loved were lucky to play in "a watered expansion ruined League full of pansies b/c they in the 60’s they used to deal w/ hand checking w/ Both hands…" 

So When I got old, and players like Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant, Shaq, Tim Duncan & Lebron came on the scene what do you think I told my kids & their friends? You guessed it "none of them could hold a candle to Doc, Bird, or Magic & I explained to them that Michael Jordan Literally Saved Lives!…"

Then My sons had kids & they Love Steph Curry & Kevin Durant & Anthony Davis &John Wall & Kyrie Irving & the circle of Life continues…

Be patient, Wall & Irving will get their due… Wall has two seasons more experience & he has Really grown into a team Leader in that time… W/ Irving, I wondered if Lebron returning would stifle him b/c he is a future #1 guy (to me).. He is an Alpha, just like Wall & I luv that about Irving & I was really impressed by the way he seemed to struggle at the beginning of last season but then really worked hard to iron things out with Lebron & as a result they may have a nicer version of Shaq & Kobe who were 7 years apart (please don’t hammer me for the Shaq / Kobe comparison I’m only speaking on that Both are Alpha’s w/ a signifigant age difference & a looming transition of team leadership)..

Anyway, the March 12, 1015 Cleveland vs San Antonio game was really – I believe – Kyrie’s "coming out party" – it was probably the Best regular season game of the year & many people believed it was a Finals preview. The Cavs won the game 128 -125 & Irving had an Amazing 57 points on 62.5% FG shooting! Inside, Outside it didn’t matter Irving took over & was unstoppable…

 No Player has a "Fluke" game like that… It was the closet thing I have seen to Iverson since Iverson & it was even Better than A.I. b/c Irving was under control the whole time & scored within the flow of the game… It was Awful that Irving was hobbled the Entire playoffs, b/c he really Grew as a player last season. But it was only his 3rd year so I think we all have a Lot to look forward to from Kyrie this season (Wall too)… 

So be patient & enjoy Irving’s growth & before you know it we’ll all be talking about Kyrie as if he walks on water – like all of our other heroes… (sorry about the long post)…

 

 

 

 

 

[NBAjunkie81Participant]

 players but I believe it’s constructive…. I’m pretty old, my heroes were Dr. J, Magic, Larry Bird, Isaiah & Jordan… The old heads like my father, uncles & all their friends SWORE that Wilt Chamberlain took it easy on teams by averaging ONLY 50 ppg & 25 rpg… To them Michael Jordan was a one trick pony who could score but would Never win a Ring & Larry Bird was Only popular b/c he was white & THEY WERE WHITE!

 To them Oscar Robertson was a Super Hero & Bill Russell was the Greatest Leader since General Ulysees S. Grant & the young Stars that I loved were lucky to play in "a watered expansion ruined League full of pansies b/c they in the 60’s they used to deal w/ hand checking w/ Both hands…" 

So When I got old, and players like Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant, Shaq, Tim Duncan & Lebron came on the scene what do you think I told my kids & their friends? You guessed it "none of them could hold a candle to Doc, Bird, or Magic & I explained to them that Michael Jordan Literally Saved Lives!…"

Then My sons had kids & they Love Steph Curry & Kevin Durant & Anthony Davis &John Wall & Kyrie Irving & the circle of Life continues…

Be patient, Wall & Irving will get their due… Wall has two seasons more experience & he has Really grown into a team Leader in that time… W/ Irving, I wondered if Lebron returning would stifle him b/c he is a future #1 guy (to me).. He is an Alpha, just like Wall & I luv that about Irving & I was really impressed by the way he seemed to struggle at the beginning of last season but then really worked hard to iron things out with Lebron & as a result they may have a nicer version of Shaq & Kobe who were 7 years apart (please don’t hammer me for the Shaq / Kobe comparison I’m only speaking on that Both are Alpha’s w/ a signifigant age difference & a looming transition of team leadership)..

Anyway, the March 12, 1015 Cleveland vs San Antonio game was really – I believe – Kyrie’s "coming out party" – it was probably the Best regular season game of the year & many people believed it was a Finals preview. The Cavs won the game 128 -125 & Irving had an Amazing 57 points on 62.5% FG shooting! Inside, Outside it didn’t matter Irving took over & was unstoppable…

 No Player has a "Fluke" game like that… It was the closet thing I have seen to Iverson since Iverson & it was even Better than A.I. b/c Irving was under control the whole time & scored within the flow of the game… It was Awful that Irving was hobbled the Entire playoffs, b/c he really Grew as a player last season. But it was only his 3rd year so I think we all have a Lot to look forward to from Kyrie this season (Wall too)… 

So be patient & enjoy Irving’s growth & before you know it we’ll all be talking about Kyrie as if he walks on water – like all of our other heroes… (sorry about the long post)…

 

 

 

 

 

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

 He needs to be able to put together 82 games in a season or at least close before he makes a leap to being a super star.  You can’t help the club in the tub!!   

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

 He needs to be able to put together 82 games in a season or at least close before he makes a leap to being a super star.  You can’t help the club in the tub!!   

[NJHooper95Participant]

 @ purple monkey, Irving played in over 70 games last season. I think he has solidified that he is a superstar already. 23 yrs old, 3 times all-star, Allstar mvp, fiba MVP, rookie of the year, all-nba team, three-point champion and single highest scoring game last year In nba 57 pts. Sounds like a superstar me.

[NJHooper95Participant]

 @ purple monkey, Irving played in over 70 games last season. I think he has solidified that he is a superstar already. 23 yrs old, 3 times all-star, Allstar mvp, fiba MVP, rookie of the year, all-nba team, three-point champion and single highest scoring game last year In nba 57 pts. Sounds like a superstar me.

[ChicagoCaseyParticipant]

In my opinion there’s only 5-7 superstars in the game ( LeBron, KD, AD, Westbrook, Harden, Curry, and CP3 ). Kyrie is no way near a superstar. Kyrie couldn’t lead his team to the playoffs in the EASTERN CONFERENCE. All Star MVP’s FIBA MVP’s, three point contest winner, and scoring 50 points do NOT justify you for being a superstar.

[ChicagoCaseyParticipant]

In my opinion there’s only 5-7 superstars in the game ( LeBron, KD, AD, Westbrook, Harden, Curry, and CP3 ). Kyrie is no way near a superstar. Kyrie couldn’t lead his team to the playoffs in the EASTERN CONFERENCE. All Star MVP’s FIBA MVP’s, three point contest winner, and scoring 50 points do NOT justify you for being a superstar.

[SubZeroParticipant]

Can’t be a superstar if you can’t get your team to the playoffs

[SubZeroParticipant]

Can’t be a superstar if you can’t get your team to the playoffs

[DrivingDownTheStreetinmy64]

You can make a case for him as a top 20 player!!!! But He is a stats guy ,someone who will make a great second option on a team trying for a ring!!!!

[DrivingDownTheStreetinmy64]

You can make a case for him as a top 20 player!!!! But He is a stats guy ,someone who will make a great second option on a team trying for a ring!!!!

[NJHooper95Participant]

I keep hearing you have to get to playoffs to be a superstar. One he has made it to the playoffs and prior to this year what’s players did he have to lead to the playoffsThe Cavs had 10 new players on the roster this year. Everyone Irving has played with outside of Thompson, Delly, and Varego is gone. That should speak for itself. He had no help and he was/is young. Wall has only made it to the playoffs twice and his cast has been much better than Irvings prior to last year. Not to mention he had mediocre coaches if not bad coaches. So Kevin Love wasn’t a superstar in Minnesota then? Yet many people were calling him the best PF in the game at that time or a toss up between him and Blake.

You have to have a team to win, but your talent will show if you have game or not and Irving and Love has done that. Anthony Davis was called a superstar last season before the Pelicans reached the playoffs. Yes Anthony Davis is the better player, but I’m just stating my point about winning and the playoffs. So is Carmelo not a superstar anymore? Is Westbrook not a superstar,neither of their teams made it to the playoffs? And someone will say Durant was hurt and that goes back to my point that you need a team to win. Westbrook is magnificent but he couldn’t get there without Durant and that’s not shot at him, that just saying again who did Irving have prior to last season??

[NJHooper95Participant]

I keep hearing you have to get to playoffs to be a superstar. One he has made it to the playoffs and prior to this year what’s players did he have to lead to the playoffsThe Cavs had 10 new players on the roster this year. Everyone Irving has played with outside of Thompson, Delly, and Varego is gone. That should speak for itself. He had no help and he was/is young. Wall has only made it to the playoffs twice and his cast has been much better than Irvings prior to last year. Not to mention he had mediocre coaches if not bad coaches. So Kevin Love wasn’t a superstar in Minnesota then? Yet many people were calling him the best PF in the game at that time or a toss up between him and Blake.

You have to have a team to win, but your talent will show if you have game or not and Irving and Love has done that. Anthony Davis was called a superstar last season before the Pelicans reached the playoffs. Yes Anthony Davis is the better player, but I’m just stating my point about winning and the playoffs. So is Carmelo not a superstar anymore? Is Westbrook not a superstar,neither of their teams made it to the playoffs? And someone will say Durant was hurt and that goes back to my point that you need a team to win. Westbrook is magnificent but he couldn’t get there without Durant and that’s not shot at him, that just saying again who did Irving have prior to last season??

[IlladelphParticipant]

 NJHooper – I don’t get it.  No one here thinks that Kyrie Irving is a bad player.  I think that any reasonable person would admit that Irving is an upper echelon NBA player.  So relax, we get it.  You love Irving, and everyone else here does too… sort of.   It’s just that you want everyone to say that Kyrie Irving is the best PG in the league.  And you want everyone to put Kyrie Irving in the same class as Magic Johnson.  Well, okay let’s look at the numbers.

These are career numbers which should smooth out some season high/low numbers and give a rough comparison of a range of current PGs.  Since you mentioned him I’ll throw in Magic to round out this rough numbers comparison.  PG skills are looked at here and I have chosen AP%, TO%, S%.  I chose these three stats because they compare point guard skills.  The assist percent shows how effectively a player distributes to his teammates, the turnover percent shows how well a PG takes care of the ball, and the steal percent is believed by most analytics experts to correlate best with defensive potential/performance.  If we are going to say that X player is a better PG than Y player, then these career stats should at the minimum back that claim up.

 

Player                                  Assist %             Turnover %             Steal %

K. Irving                               30.7                      13.1                        2.1

J. Wall                                  40.6                       17.7                        2.4

S. Curry                                32.4                      15.4                        2.4

R. Westbrook                       37.6                       15.3                        2.5

Chris Paul                            46.6                       13.4                       3.4

J. Teague                             32.1                        16.4                       2.4

M. Johnson (career)            40.9                        19.4                        2.5

 

By the numbers, the best PG on this list by far is Chris Paul.  What is really sick is that Paul has averaged these numbers over 10 years or so!  The other active players have been around for only 4-5 years.

Magic maintained his numbers over 12 years as a point guard and 1 year as a PF after being out of the league for 4 yrs.

But back to Kyrie.  His assist % is the lowest on the list, even lower than Jeff Teague who I think is a very good NBA PG.  Compared to the other players on the list, he does not distribute to his teammates effectively.  His turnover % is the lowest on this list which is consistent with what most believe believe about Irving which is that he takes care of the ball extremely well.  But again, he is the lowest on the list for steal % which also goes with what most feel about him which is that he does not play defense at an elite level.

IN CONCLUSION:  If we are going to talk about Kyrie Irving as an elite NBA PG, then we have to look at the above 3 stats.  He is the lowest in 2 of the 3.  Does that mean he is a bad player?  No.  He is a very good NBA player.  But does that mean he is a btter PG than John Wall, or Chris Paul, or Magic Johnson?  I would say no he is not.  I did not look at points scored or offensive efficiency, and I suspect that Irving would fare better in those categories.  But if we are strictly talking NBA PG comparison here, then Irving should at least have better stats than Jeff Teague, especially if we are going to put him in the same league as Magic Johnson.

 

[IlladelphParticipant]

 NJHooper – I don’t get it.  No one here thinks that Kyrie Irving is a bad player.  I think that any reasonable person would admit that Irving is an upper echelon NBA player.  So relax, we get it.  You love Irving, and everyone else here does too… sort of.   It’s just that you want everyone to say that Kyrie Irving is the best PG in the league.  And you want everyone to put Kyrie Irving in the same class as Magic Johnson.  Well, okay let’s look at the numbers.

These are career numbers which should smooth out some season high/low numbers and give a rough comparison of a range of current PGs.  Since you mentioned him I’ll throw in Magic to round out this rough numbers comparison.  PG skills are looked at here and I have chosen AP%, TO%, S%.  I chose these three stats because they compare point guard skills.  The assist percent shows how effectively a player distributes to his teammates, the turnover percent shows how well a PG takes care of the ball, and the steal percent is believed by most analytics experts to correlate best with defensive potential/performance.  If we are going to say that X player is a better PG than Y player, then these career stats should at the minimum back that claim up.

 

Player                                  Assist %             Turnover %             Steal %

K. Irving                               30.7                      13.1                        2.1

J. Wall                                  40.6                       17.7                        2.4

S. Curry                                32.4                      15.4                        2.4

R. Westbrook                       37.6                       15.3                        2.5

Chris Paul                            46.6                       13.4                       3.4

J. Teague                             32.1                        16.4                       2.4

M. Johnson (career)            40.9                        19.4                        2.5

 

By the numbers, the best PG on this list by far is Chris Paul.  What is really sick is that Paul has averaged these numbers over 10 years or so!  The other active players have been around for only 4-5 years.

Magic maintained his numbers over 12 years as a point guard and 1 year as a PF after being out of the league for 4 yrs.

But back to Kyrie.  His assist % is the lowest on the list, even lower than Jeff Teague who I think is a very good NBA PG.  Compared to the other players on the list, he does not distribute to his teammates effectively.  His turnover % is the lowest on this list which is consistent with what most believe believe about Irving which is that he takes care of the ball extremely well.  But again, he is the lowest on the list for steal % which also goes with what most feel about him which is that he does not play defense at an elite level.

IN CONCLUSION:  If we are going to talk about Kyrie Irving as an elite NBA PG, then we have to look at the above 3 stats.  He is the lowest in 2 of the 3.  Does that mean he is a bad player?  No.  He is a very good NBA player.  But does that mean he is a btter PG than John Wall, or Chris Paul, or Magic Johnson?  I would say no he is not.  I did not look at points scored or offensive efficiency, and I suspect that Irving would fare better in those categories.  But if we are strictly talking NBA PG comparison here, then Irving should at least have better stats than Jeff Teague, especially if we are going to put him in the same league as Magic Johnson.

 

[For_Never_EverParticipant]

Kyrie also has injury proneness. 

[For_Never_EverParticipant]

Kyrie also has injury proneness. 

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

 And then Irving let them down in the playoffs by getting injured and cost the Cavs a championship.  70 games is nothing to brag about if you know the history of the game.  Many players have had high scoring regular season games… big deal,  Corey Brewer scored 50 points in a game 2 seasons ago does that make him a superstar?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PurpleMonkeyDishwasherParticipant]

 And then Irving let them down in the playoffs by getting injured and cost the Cavs a championship.  70 games is nothing to brag about if you know the history of the game.  Many players have had high scoring regular season games… big deal,  Corey Brewer scored 50 points in a game 2 seasons ago does that make him a superstar?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CynthiaParticipant]

It’s funny you mention Magic, Kidd and Nash. Those three were some of the best distributors the game has seen, which is kind of the main goal of a Point Guard. Kyrie is nowhere near their level of passing, awareness and general basketball IQ. Kyrie is just a Shooting Guard playing Point Guard, if Kyrie was a few inches taller and played SG, he’d be absolutely scary.

[CynthiaParticipant]

It’s funny you mention Magic, Kidd and Nash. Those three were some of the best distributors the game has seen, which is kind of the main goal of a Point Guard. Kyrie is nowhere near their level of passing, awareness and general basketball IQ. Kyrie is just a Shooting Guard playing Point Guard, if Kyrie was a few inches taller and played SG, he’d be absolutely scary.

[NJHooper95Participant]

I think Chris Paul is the best pure pg over the last couple of years and Jkidd is my favorite of all-time. I’m not by any means saying that Kyrie is Kidd, Magic, or even Paul. I’m saying that they were all great at different things. Let’s be realistic with the assist comparison. Name another starting pg in the league that is sharing almost 50pct or more of the ball handling duties while on the court. The answer is more than likely going to be none. As long as Lebron is there Kyrie assist number will not get above 6pg. I judge pg off assist as well and even if Lebron was there I’m not sure Irving would average more than 7pg. 

Kyrie is a special scorer, maybe he may even be more of two than a one, but my whole point with this initial thread is there are not 20 better players in the league than Irving. I’m not saying he is top 10 or 15 but not top 20 is hard to see…

[NJHooper95Participant]

I think Chris Paul is the best pure pg over the last couple of years and Jkidd is my favorite of all-time. I’m not by any means saying that Kyrie is Kidd, Magic, or even Paul. I’m saying that they were all great at different things. Let’s be realistic with the assist comparison. Name another starting pg in the league that is sharing almost 50pct or more of the ball handling duties while on the court. The answer is more than likely going to be none. As long as Lebron is there Kyrie assist number will not get above 6pg. I judge pg off assist as well and even if Lebron was there I’m not sure Irving would average more than 7pg. 

Kyrie is a special scorer, maybe he may even be more of two than a one, but my whole point with this initial thread is there are not 20 better players in the league than Irving. I’m not saying he is top 10 or 15 but not top 20 is hard to see…

[HeroescantdieParticipant]

He’s a offensive machine, but I think when he’s the main man in cleveland that offensive firepower didn’t translate to wins. while for Wall, he’s so unselfish, he can average 20 ppg and yet he’s out there dishing assists to his teammates and keeping everyone happy rather than dribbling top of the key, doing crossovers and shake and bake 23 seconds then shooting a contested fadeaway 3p shot. Well it’s just my opinion

[HeroescantdieParticipant]

He’s a offensive machine, but I think when he’s the main man in cleveland that offensive firepower didn’t translate to wins. while for Wall, he’s so unselfish, he can average 20 ppg and yet he’s out there dishing assists to his teammates and keeping everyone happy rather than dribbling top of the key, doing crossovers and shake and bake 23 seconds then shooting a contested fadeaway 3p shot. Well it’s just my opinion

[ExumInfernoParticipant]

 Irving had more assists, per minute, and a better field goal percentage in his rookie year than in later years.  That takes some of his stardom down a notch.  

Turnovers and fouls are down.  He has never played 80 games.  Irving is surrounded by all the right players, if he doesn’t get his team the top record in the conference it will be seen as a disappointment.

 

 

 

[ExumInfernoParticipant]

 Irving had more assists, per minute, and a better field goal percentage in his rookie year than in later years.  That takes some of his stardom down a notch.  

Turnovers and fouls are down.  He has never played 80 games.  Irving is surrounded by all the right players, if he doesn’t get his team the top record in the conference it will be seen as a disappointment.

 

 

 

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