[SlickBouncePassParticipant]

 Who are the top 5 defenders of each of the following positions:

Guard, Swing, Bigman. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[T Rex]

 It doesn’t get much better than this, at any position

http://www.youtube.com/watch

Except when he’s healthy, then it gets better than that.

Vs Harden

http://www.youtube.com/watch

Blocking shots is cool, but guards simply have more opportunities to dominate and change the game.

Leading the entire NBA in rate of steals + offensive fouls drawn as a rookie, beating out the DPOY who can’t even draw charges, is the stuff of a future Hall of Famer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Magic JordanParticipant]

 Marcus Smart is like that kid everybody had on their team growing up who gives 110% and plays real hard, but just doesn’t have much skill.  It’s why he gets things done on defense.  His effort is kind of cute actually, but everybody knows he will never make the high school team.

[Magic JordanParticipant]

 Marcus Smart is like that kid everybody had on their team growing up who gives 110% and plays real hard, but just doesn’t have much skill.  It’s why he gets things done on defense.  His effort is kind of cute actually, but everybody knows he will never make the high school team.

[T Rex]

 It doesn’t get much better than this, at any position

http://www.youtube.com/watch

Except when he’s healthy, then it gets better than that.

Vs Harden

http://www.youtube.com/watch

Blocking shots is cool, but guards simply have more opportunities to dominate and change the game.

Leading the entire NBA in rate of steals + offensive fouls drawn as a rookie, beating out the DPOY who can’t even draw charges, is the stuff of a future Hall of Famer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JDB12Participant]

 Except he’s the kid that gives 110% and has talent… I mean he is in the NBA.

[T Rex]

 Forgive him while he goes through the stages of grief re: DRussell. 

It’s not easy to watch your team blow a #2 pick on a poor man’s Evan Turner.

 

 

 

[NBAjunkie81Participant]

That was harsh even for you T-Rex – Really?

 I feel bad for D. Russell b/c I think he’s going to be a good player, but he’s a kid who needs the ball in his hands & he needs to grow w/ his teammates as a unit…

 He’s a cerabral, intelligent kid who isn’t going to break people down 1 on 1 but I think he’s the type of kid that could lead your team from point A to point B & that is a rare ability & in a team game, in many ways, that ability is More important than individual stats & athletic ability…

 But I worry he’s not going to Develop b/c Kobe really runs the Offense & every time Okafor plays well, Russell is going to suffer n social media b/c of comparisons – hopefully that will fade… …

 L.A. needs to commit to Russell & at least give him & his young teammates Clarkson & Randle a chance to make their own way in this League..

[NBAjunkie81Participant]

That was harsh even for you T-Rex – Really?

 I feel bad for D. Russell b/c I think he’s going to be a good player, but he’s a kid who needs the ball in his hands & he needs to grow w/ his teammates as a unit…

 He’s a cerabral, intelligent kid who isn’t going to break people down 1 on 1 but I think he’s the type of kid that could lead your team from point A to point B & that is a rare ability & in a team game, in many ways, that ability is More important than individual stats & athletic ability…

 But I worry he’s not going to Develop b/c Kobe really runs the Offense & every time Okafor plays well, Russell is going to suffer n social media b/c of comparisons – hopefully that will fade… …

 L.A. needs to commit to Russell & at least give him & his young teammates Clarkson & Randle a chance to make their own way in this League..

[T Rex]

 Did you just talk about DRussell leading a team from point a to point b?

That’s his whole problem, he moves from any point a to point b at a snail’s pace.

He absolutely doesn’t need the ball in his hands, because he can’t go anywhere with the ball, or without the ball for that matter. He can’t get into the lane with the ball, even with picks set for him. And even when he’s offball and makes a backdoor cut, it doesn’t matter because it’s the slowest backdoor cut among NBA guards in the entire league.

If he was 7 feet tall and fairly strong like Kelly Olynyk, Russell could be an outstanding complimentary player.

But he’s not. He’s 6’5". Even Evan Turner is a lot more explosive than Russell. By a mile, actually.

People take the quarterback analogy way too literally. Tom Brady couldn’t be an NBA point guard, even if he did throw a nice spin pass every once in a while.

You guys got suckered by a non-athlete, and convinced yourselves that he may not be as athletic as Westbrook, but he was still an athlete, because swag.

Point guard requires elite athleticism to be any good at the NBA level, especially defense. Russell has center level athleticism in a shooting guard’s body, and you guys thought he could hang athletically with starting NBA point guards?

It’s just one more example of style being more seductive than substance, like how Myles Turner wasn’t viewed as a top tier prospect because he didn’t look cool when he runs up and down the court.

 

 

 

 

[T Rex]

 Did you just talk about DRussell leading a team from point a to point b?

That’s his whole problem, he moves from any point a to point b at a snail’s pace.

He absolutely doesn’t need the ball in his hands, because he can’t go anywhere with the ball, or without the ball for that matter. He can’t get into the lane with the ball, even with picks set for him. And even when he’s offball and makes a backdoor cut, it doesn’t matter because it’s the slowest backdoor cut among NBA guards in the entire league.

If he was 7 feet tall and fairly strong like Kelly Olynyk, Russell could be an outstanding complimentary player.

But he’s not. He’s 6’5". Even Evan Turner is a lot more explosive than Russell. By a mile, actually.

People take the quarterback analogy way too literally. Tom Brady couldn’t be an NBA point guard, even if he did throw a nice spin pass every once in a while.

You guys got suckered by a non-athlete, and convinced yourselves that he may not be as athletic as Westbrook, but he was still an athlete, because swag.

Point guard requires elite athleticism to be any good at the NBA level, especially defense. Russell has center level athleticism in a shooting guard’s body, and you guys thought he could hang athletically with starting NBA point guards?

It’s just one more example of style being more seductive than substance, like how Myles Turner wasn’t viewed as a top tier prospect because he didn’t look cool when he runs up and down the court.

 

 

 

 

[NBAjunkie81Participant]

 I meant a real leader rallies a group to complete a mission – he strikes me as a guy who can understand what the team needs to get them through a season & into the playoffs – like a true point guard who understands how to keep the other players on the floor happy; who recognizes that this guy or that guy is hot so get him the ball, or if another guy is slumping, get him some easy shots to get him going… Like an old time cerebral point guard who is an extension of the coach on the floor – like Mo Cheeks or Chauncey Billups…. But that’s on me I should have explained myself better…

[NBAjunkie81Participant]

 I meant a real leader rallies a group to complete a mission – he strikes me as a guy who can understand what the team needs to get them through a season & into the playoffs – like a true point guard who understands how to keep the other players on the floor happy; who recognizes that this guy or that guy is hot so get him the ball, or if another guy is slumping, get him some easy shots to get him going… Like an old time cerebral point guard who is an extension of the coach on the floor – like Mo Cheeks or Chauncey Billups…. But that’s on me I should have explained myself better…

[T Rex]

 Yeah I got it the first time, but what you still don’t get is that Tom Brady has those same qualities, but neither Bradey nor Russell provide the minimum level of athleticism/quickness required of a modern age point guard.

A point guard has to be able to literally get from point a to point be with elite athleticism before they can stay on the court long enough to lead a team from a figurative point a to a figurative point b.

A point guard can’t just stand on the perimeter and pass the ball to the dude next to him. He also has to be able to F-ing move his body at more than a snail’s pace, not just on offense but expecially on defense.

Russell will be a complimentary shooting guard with some nice passing ability and below average defense, with slightly above average shooting ability in limited situations like catch and shoot.

You can draft somebody like that in the late first or second round, in any draft, and watch them be a solid role player off the bench.

You think he can stay in front of Harden, or even Dion Waiters, or even ancient Jason Terry? F no. 

He hasn’t even taken one guy off the dribble since he got drafted, and the only dudes he took off the dribble in college were non-conference scrubs who have no career in basketball, even in Puerto Rico.

This kid is so slow he can’t even swat a mosquito, even if the mosquito is buried into his arm. The mosquito still has time to pull out and fly away before Russell’s slow twitch muscles are able to slap at it.

I get the feeling a lot of fans see a lot of themselves in Russell, and want to see him succeed as a result. Because very few of you are less explosive than Russell, or have a slower first step.

And let’s face it, all of you can throw a spin pass, just like your favorite "future superstar".

 

 

 

[T Rex]

 Yeah I got it the first time, but what you still don’t get is that Tom Brady has those same qualities, but neither Bradey nor Russell provide the minimum level of athleticism/quickness required of a modern age point guard.

A point guard has to be able to literally get from point a to point be with elite athleticism before they can stay on the court long enough to lead a team from a figurative point a to a figurative point b.

A point guard can’t just stand on the perimeter and pass the ball to the dude next to him. He also has to be able to F-ing move his body at more than a snail’s pace, not just on offense but expecially on defense.

Russell will be a complimentary shooting guard with some nice passing ability and below average defense, with slightly above average shooting ability in limited situations like catch and shoot.

You can draft somebody like that in the late first or second round, in any draft, and watch them be a solid role player off the bench.

You think he can stay in front of Harden, or even Dion Waiters, or even ancient Jason Terry? F no. 

He hasn’t even taken one guy off the dribble since he got drafted, and the only dudes he took off the dribble in college were non-conference scrubs who have no career in basketball, even in Puerto Rico.

This kid is so slow he can’t even swat a mosquito, even if the mosquito is buried into his arm. The mosquito still has time to pull out and fly away before Russell’s slow twitch muscles are able to slap at it.

I get the feeling a lot of fans see a lot of themselves in Russell, and want to see him succeed as a result. Because very few of you are less explosive than Russell, or have a slower first step.

And let’s face it, all of you can throw a spin pass, just like your favorite "future superstar".

 

 

 

[T Rex]

 Forgive him while he goes through the stages of grief re: DRussell. 

It’s not easy to watch your team blow a #2 pick on a poor man’s Evan Turner.

 

 

 

[Magic JordanParticipant]

 talent relative to other NBA players is obviously what I meant, not everyday basketball players.

[BleedGreen808Participant]

 Talent isn’t just on offense though.  Smart has amazing instincts on defense for a young player.  He takes charges and makes plays that don’t show up on the stat sheet.  He’s improving as a playmaker on offense and him shooting 33.5% last season from 3 was better than expected.  His shooting percentages and shot selection weren’t great but he impacts the game a ton.  I can tell by your posts about him you’re not a fan of his game but I’m just curious how often you watch the Celtics games to see him play.  

[Magic JordanParticipant]

 I’m just trying to out troll the super troll.  I am already growing exhausted with it.  How T-Rex can manage 8 accounts and troll as hard as he does on every one of them is impressive.  He is averaging an impressive 22 trolls per day on each account… to put it simply he is Troyallty.  

Marcus Smart is a great defender.  Great hustle… I love those types of guys.  I actually am a fan of his game, much in the way I am of Pat Beverlys.  

Two things I can say with almost certainty though are he will never be a legit playmaker…. and he has at least a few more years of making terrible decisions.  

In fact, aside from physical measurements.  I would love to have a good explanation on what you think the difference is between Pat Beverly and Marcus Smart… besides opportunity.  Meaning, if Beverly was given the freedom of Smart, couldn’t he also turn the ball over at a high clip and shoot a poor % from the floor?  While also being a better 3 point shooter?

 And to clarify since you’re the 2nd person to reference it.  I never said he didn’t have talent… I said he didn’t have skill, there is a difference.

 

 

[BleedGreen808Participant]

 My mistake I thought you were just seriously low on Marcus Smart as a player.  I’m with you that T Rex can be frustrating with his crazy claims constantly.  As a Celtics fan I had that he hypes up our players like they are on par or better than proven stars.  

I would say that watching him play in summer league, pre-season and now n the first game of the season he does look more comfortable as a playmaker.  Of course that’s not a great sample size but he’s been given more responsibility as the point guard.  Last season he played off the ball with Evan Turner or IT playing the point. So far he has been able to hit passes that he didn’t last season.  

I’d say for now the difference is his age.  Smart is still developing as a player so he’s still given the opportunity to play through his mistakes.  Pat Beverly is who he is as a player at this point but Smart can still develop into more.  Of course it is possible that he ends up shifting over to shooting guard down the road of he can’t be consistent as a point guard.  

 

[BleedGreen808Participant]

 My mistake I thought you were just seriously low on Marcus Smart as a player.  I’m with you that T Rex can be frustrating with his crazy claims constantly.  As a Celtics fan I had that he hypes up our players like they are on par or better than proven stars.  

I would say that watching him play in summer league, pre-season and now n the first game of the season he does look more comfortable as a playmaker.  Of course that’s not a great sample size but he’s been given more responsibility as the point guard.  Last season he played off the ball with Evan Turner or IT playing the point. So far he has been able to hit passes that he didn’t last season.  

I’d say for now the difference is his age.  Smart is still developing as a player so he’s still given the opportunity to play through his mistakes.  Pat Beverly is who he is as a player at this point but Smart can still develop into more.  Of course it is possible that he ends up shifting over to shooting guard down the road of he can’t be consistent as a point guard.  

 

[T Rex]

 Aside from 45 lbs of beef, what’s the difference Smart and Beverly?

Beverly has zero versatility. He’s a point guard. Smart might not be much better offensively as a point guard right now, but he’s better defensively and has been since day 1 last year. Not just better defensively against point guards, but way way way way way better defensively against shooting guards, and he can even lock down most small forwards. Smart can even switch onto power forwards and centers when he needs to, and he does it successfully all the time.

Then there’s the fact that Smart can play off the ball, alongside a smaller point guard like Isaiah, or a smaller shooting guard like Avery Bradley, or even small forward in small ball lineups. Because Smart weighs the same as most small forwards, 230-235 lbs. Sure, they can shoot over him, but they can’t put the ball on the floor, not even once, and when they go up to shoot over him he’s probably going to get a piece of the ball before they rise above him.

Or you can just play Smart at point guard, alongside a traditional shooting guard. Not that Smart isn’t already a good catch and shoot shooting guard from 3 point range and beyond. Whether he had a hand in his face or not.

Don’t just look at Smart’s surprisingly solid 33.5% from 3, look at the very high volume he was shooting them, and the degree of difficulty, often at the end of the shot clock.

His playmaking game is quickly improving, and he hasn’t even really started to break out his dribble drive game, even if he does need a screen a lot of the time to get going into the lane.

In college he got to the rim and drew fouls at roughly the same rate and effectiveness as James Harden, and while Smart is still a half step slower than Harden, with worse handles, those things are improving all the time, just like Harden took a few years to really hit his stride.

Because Smart’s defense is so top notch, he can have the same mvp candidate level impact as Harden and some other guys just by averaging a fairly efficient 18 points per game with 5-6 assists and a solid A/TO ratio. 

Smart’s Real Plus Minus was already 33rd best in the league as a rookie. Becoming a top 10 most valuable player isn’t a stretch within the next two years, and that’s before he even hits his prime and finishes developing offensively.

Smart’s true shooting % wasn’t outstanding as a rookie, but before long it will be well over 50% between his 33-37% 3 point shooting and his knack for getting to the FT line.

In fact, if you take out the first month or two of Smart’s rookie season, his 3 pt % was 37-38% on high volume the rest of the year, even though he often had a hand in his face, was catching and shooting with crazy sideways momentum, or other high degree of difficulty situations. Just checking his shot selection a bit will probably get him to 37-38% for the season this year.

So in a lot of ways Smart is a combination of both Beverly and Harden, minus Harden’s uncanny midrange game and floaters that Smart may or may not ever master.

Except neither Beverly or Harden can play this level of defense, let alone at 3 positions.

Did I mention Smart was 2nd in the entire NBA in offensive fouls drawn, despite missing 19 games? 

Smart forced turnovers at a higher rate than Kawhi Leonard did last year, when you combine steals plus offensive fouls drawn.

We’re talking about a perennial DPOY candidate here, even during the second half of his rookie year.

Unfortunately, guards always get slept on in DPOY voting, like when Tony Allen probably deserved the DPOY award that his teammate Marc Gasol won. And Kawhi really only won it because his defense on LeBron in the playoffs was so high profile the year before. Boston only had like 1-2 national tv games last year, so most people still have little to no clue just how good he is.

Which is how lazy comparisons to Pat Beverly arise, however innocently.

 

 

[T Rex]

 I misspoke. Olynyk was 33rd in RPM last year, Smart was 67th overall, not 33rd.

[T Rex]

 I misspoke. Olynyk was 33rd in RPM last year, Smart was 67th overall, not 33rd.

[T Rex]

 By comparison, Pat Beverly was 262nd in RPM.

 

 

[T Rex]

 By comparison, Pat Beverly was 262nd in RPM.

 

 

[T Rex]

 Aside from 45 lbs of beef, what’s the difference Smart and Beverly?

Beverly has zero versatility. He’s a point guard. Smart might not be much better offensively as a point guard right now, but he’s better defensively and has been since day 1 last year. Not just better defensively against point guards, but way way way way way better defensively against shooting guards, and he can even lock down most small forwards. Smart can even switch onto power forwards and centers when he needs to, and he does it successfully all the time.

Then there’s the fact that Smart can play off the ball, alongside a smaller point guard like Isaiah, or a smaller shooting guard like Avery Bradley, or even small forward in small ball lineups. Because Smart weighs the same as most small forwards, 230-235 lbs. Sure, they can shoot over him, but they can’t put the ball on the floor, not even once, and when they go up to shoot over him he’s probably going to get a piece of the ball before they rise above him.

Or you can just play Smart at point guard, alongside a traditional shooting guard. Not that Smart isn’t already a good catch and shoot shooting guard from 3 point range and beyond. Whether he had a hand in his face or not.

Don’t just look at Smart’s surprisingly solid 33.5% from 3, look at the very high volume he was shooting them, and the degree of difficulty, often at the end of the shot clock.

His playmaking game is quickly improving, and he hasn’t even really started to break out his dribble drive game, even if he does need a screen a lot of the time to get going into the lane.

In college he got to the rim and drew fouls at roughly the same rate and effectiveness as James Harden, and while Smart is still a half step slower than Harden, with worse handles, those things are improving all the time, just like Harden took a few years to really hit his stride.

Because Smart’s defense is so top notch, he can have the same mvp candidate level impact as Harden and some other guys just by averaging a fairly efficient 18 points per game with 5-6 assists and a solid A/TO ratio. 

Smart’s Real Plus Minus was already 33rd best in the league as a rookie. Becoming a top 10 most valuable player isn’t a stretch within the next two years, and that’s before he even hits his prime and finishes developing offensively.

Smart’s true shooting % wasn’t outstanding as a rookie, but before long it will be well over 50% between his 33-37% 3 point shooting and his knack for getting to the FT line.

In fact, if you take out the first month or two of Smart’s rookie season, his 3 pt % was 37-38% on high volume the rest of the year, even though he often had a hand in his face, was catching and shooting with crazy sideways momentum, or other high degree of difficulty situations. Just checking his shot selection a bit will probably get him to 37-38% for the season this year.

So in a lot of ways Smart is a combination of both Beverly and Harden, minus Harden’s uncanny midrange game and floaters that Smart may or may not ever master.

Except neither Beverly or Harden can play this level of defense, let alone at 3 positions.

Did I mention Smart was 2nd in the entire NBA in offensive fouls drawn, despite missing 19 games? 

Smart forced turnovers at a higher rate than Kawhi Leonard did last year, when you combine steals plus offensive fouls drawn.

We’re talking about a perennial DPOY candidate here, even during the second half of his rookie year.

Unfortunately, guards always get slept on in DPOY voting, like when Tony Allen probably deserved the DPOY award that his teammate Marc Gasol won. And Kawhi really only won it because his defense on LeBron in the playoffs was so high profile the year before. Boston only had like 1-2 national tv games last year, so most people still have little to no clue just how good he is.

Which is how lazy comparisons to Pat Beverly arise, however innocently.

 

 

[Magic JordanParticipant]

 I’m just trying to out troll the super troll.  I am already growing exhausted with it.  How T-Rex can manage 8 accounts and troll as hard as he does on every one of them is impressive.  He is averaging an impressive 22 trolls per day on each account… to put it simply he is Troyallty.  

Marcus Smart is a great defender.  Great hustle… I love those types of guys.  I actually am a fan of his game, much in the way I am of Pat Beverlys.  

Two things I can say with almost certainty though are he will never be a legit playmaker…. and he has at least a few more years of making terrible decisions.  

In fact, aside from physical measurements.  I would love to have a good explanation on what you think the difference is between Pat Beverly and Marcus Smart… besides opportunity.  Meaning, if Beverly was given the freedom of Smart, couldn’t he also turn the ball over at a high clip and shoot a poor % from the floor?  While also being a better 3 point shooter?

 And to clarify since you’re the 2nd person to reference it.  I never said he didn’t have talent… I said he didn’t have skill, there is a difference.

 

 

[ZachAttackParticipant]

 See, this is a reasonable Celtics fan… I like you BleedGreen

[BleedGreen808Participant]

 Thanks ZachAttack.  I try to keep realistic expectations when it comes to the team and our players.  

[T Rex]

 You’re way too cautious, especially with Brad Stevens in charge. 

Realistic would have been betting that the Celtics would make the playoffs last year, even after they started 13-26. I predicted a trade and a playoff berth on December 10th last year, and asked rhetorically, "what if the re-build is over?"

Now that’s realism.

Last September or October I was calling Olynyk a top 15 center. He finished 6th among centers in real plus minus.

 

 

 

[BleedGreen808Participant]

 Hey if you predicted we’d make the playoffs at that point then that’s an impressive prediction.  However, I don’t see that as realism.  At that point I would have said it would be hopeful to think we would still make the playoffs.  As for Olynyk I think he could be a really good player as a stretch big with high IQ.  But with him it’s his lack of aggressiveness that is holding him back from breaking out.  Personally I’m not huge on plus minus but he does have a positive impact 

The thing that I think people don’t like is you make tons of bold claims about players that tend to not be realistic.  You say players like Wiggins aren’t good while talking up our rookies, Smart and Olynyk.  

[BleedGreen808Participant]

 Hey if you predicted we’d make the playoffs at that point then that’s an impressive prediction.  However, I don’t see that as realism.  At that point I would have said it would be hopeful to think we would still make the playoffs.  As for Olynyk I think he could be a really good player as a stretch big with high IQ.  But with him it’s his lack of aggressiveness that is holding him back from breaking out.  Personally I’m not huge on plus minus but he does have a positive impact 

The thing that I think people don’t like is you make tons of bold claims about players that tend to not be realistic.  You say players like Wiggins aren’t good while talking up our rookies, Smart and Olynyk.  

[T Rex]

 Being exactly right wasn’t realistic? That’s exactly why you’re not realistic.

It’s not like Danny wasn’t sitting on a pile of draft picks he could cash in for an impact player at any moment. Just because most fans wanted to tank and thought the roster was trash doesn’t make them realistic, it just means they were dead wrong, together. You seem to prefer being wrong with company than correct by yourself.

Stevens brought Butler to the NCAA Finals twice, as a 30-something coach. That’s why I predicted Jordan Crawford would turn his career around under rookie coach Stevens. And what happened? Jordan Crawford was the Eastern Conference Player of the Week, before being traded for a conditional FIRST round pick that turned into two top second rounders.

Being realistic meant there were no excuses to short-change Stevens’ player development abilities last year.

Only morons thought getting Tyler Zeller for free was no big deal. Only morons thought Evan Turner wouldn’t be able to turn his career around under Stevens. Sleeping on rookie Marcus Smart making a big impact as a rookie? Pretty damn dumb. Sleeping on Olynyk? Just dumb. Dude put up the 33rd best advanced stats in the league, 6th best among centers. Who could have seen that happening? Anybody who watched the second half of Olynyk’s rookie year, and who reasonably expected improvement as a sophomore.

Is it EVER realistic doubt significant improvement in a sophomore NBA player? F NO.

Is it realistic to not expect significant improvement from Smart’s major impact as a rookie?

I’ll let you try to figure that out.

You sit there listening to second rate basketball minds who didn’t even watch the Celtics last year, and you let them influence your views. That’s not realistic, that’s the blind leading the blurry.

And among Celtics fans and journalists who actually watch the games, 95% of them thought Rondo was our only good player, and that we would be nothing after trading him.

So of course they still can’t wrap their minds around how good our players and teams are. That would require humility and intelligence that they simply don’t have.

 

 

[T Rex]

 Being exactly right wasn’t realistic? That’s exactly why you’re not realistic.

It’s not like Danny wasn’t sitting on a pile of draft picks he could cash in for an impact player at any moment. Just because most fans wanted to tank and thought the roster was trash doesn’t make them realistic, it just means they were dead wrong, together. You seem to prefer being wrong with company than correct by yourself.

Stevens brought Butler to the NCAA Finals twice, as a 30-something coach. That’s why I predicted Jordan Crawford would turn his career around under rookie coach Stevens. And what happened? Jordan Crawford was the Eastern Conference Player of the Week, before being traded for a conditional FIRST round pick that turned into two top second rounders.

Being realistic meant there were no excuses to short-change Stevens’ player development abilities last year.

Only morons thought getting Tyler Zeller for free was no big deal. Only morons thought Evan Turner wouldn’t be able to turn his career around under Stevens. Sleeping on rookie Marcus Smart making a big impact as a rookie? Pretty damn dumb. Sleeping on Olynyk? Just dumb. Dude put up the 33rd best advanced stats in the league, 6th best among centers. Who could have seen that happening? Anybody who watched the second half of Olynyk’s rookie year, and who reasonably expected improvement as a sophomore.

Is it EVER realistic doubt significant improvement in a sophomore NBA player? F NO.

Is it realistic to not expect significant improvement from Smart’s major impact as a rookie?

I’ll let you try to figure that out.

You sit there listening to second rate basketball minds who didn’t even watch the Celtics last year, and you let them influence your views. That’s not realistic, that’s the blind leading the blurry.

And among Celtics fans and journalists who actually watch the games, 95% of them thought Rondo was our only good player, and that we would be nothing after trading him.

So of course they still can’t wrap their minds around how good our players and teams are. That would require humility and intelligence that they simply don’t have.

 

 

[BleedGreen808Participant]

I think you and I have different definitions of what being realistic is.  First of all getting Tyler Zeller was a no brainer trade so don’t pretend you’re the only one who thought it was a good move.  We got Zeller, Thorton and a 1st round pick for an expiring trade exception who wouldn’t do that?  You say Olynyk had a great sophmore season but I think he underachieved based on the way he finished his rookie year.  I’m still waiting for him to take wide open shots instead of pump faking over and over.  I’m expecting Smart to develop and I hope he’ll blossom into an All-Star but he has a long way to go on offense before that happens.  

I watch ever single game the Celtics play along with games on national TV and NBATV throughout the season.  I follow the NBA deeply because I have loved basketball since I was a kid so I’m not just a casual fan.  I’m not underestimating the impact that Brad Stevens has had in developing our players.  Nor am I underestimating Trader Danny’s ability to make really good trades while stockpiling assets.  

So with you being so high on roster and organization where do you see Boston finishing in the East and how far do they go into the playoffs?  Don’t forget we got swept in the 1st round despite how "great" you think we are.  

[BleedGreen808Participant]

I think you and I have different definitions of what being realistic is.  First of all getting Tyler Zeller was a no brainer trade so don’t pretend you’re the only one who thought it was a good move.  We got Zeller, Thorton and a 1st round pick for an expiring trade exception who wouldn’t do that?  You say Olynyk had a great sophmore season but I think he underachieved based on the way he finished his rookie year.  I’m still waiting for him to take wide open shots instead of pump faking over and over.  I’m expecting Smart to develop and I hope he’ll blossom into an All-Star but he has a long way to go on offense before that happens.  

I watch ever single game the Celtics play along with games on national TV and NBATV throughout the season.  I follow the NBA deeply because I have loved basketball since I was a kid so I’m not just a casual fan.  I’m not underestimating the impact that Brad Stevens has had in developing our players.  Nor am I underestimating Trader Danny’s ability to make really good trades while stockpiling assets.  

So with you being so high on roster and organization where do you see Boston finishing in the East and how far do they go into the playoffs?  Don’t forget we got swept in the 1st round despite how "great" you think we are.  

[T Rex]

 Yeah we got swept by the best team in the NBA, fully healthy, who were the favorite to win it all, with the best player in the world at his absolute prime.

So did the Hawks, except they got swept by a much more depleted Cavs team that was no longer the best team in the world.

How many games did the Hawks win? 

How much better than Brandon Bass is Amir Johnson? How much better is Rozier than Phil Pressey?

Celtics should be able to go toe to toe with any team in the East except a fully healthy Cavs squad, much like last year, actually, but even more so. It’s not the Celtics fault they had to face the Cavs in the first round, nor does getting swept by the Cavs mean that the Hawks weren’t/aren’t a great team.

You say Olynyk was a disappointment, but that just shows that you don’t fully understand his impact. Many/most Celtics fans HATED the Olynyk pick, and they still find any reason, or no reason at all, to declare that he’s not already making a positive impact. In reality, he’s already been making a MAJOR positive impact. And he led all rookies in real plus minus the year before.

You don’t like that he pump faked enough, so that means he didn’t have a big positive impact?

Take a look at the Real Plus Minus leaderboard from last year.

espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/sort/RPM

 If you think Olynyk placing 33rd in the league was a fluke, see if you can point to a single other fluky looking name on that leaderboard from 1-32. Now scan from 34-40. Now turn the page and keep looking, and keep looking.

Does that look like a flukey stat?

There’s a huge difference between putting up simple stats that show up in the scoreboard, vs actual impact on the game, and the Celtics are and were loaded with these type of guys. And all the players who impact the game a lot less than their stats are now gone. It’s not a coincidence, nor was the playoff run without most of those guys. And now the worst of them, Brandon Bass, is out of our starting lineup and off the roster.

Celtics were the second best Eastern team from February on. But go ahead and be shocked when they play similarly this year, with an even better roster, more experience, and more continuity.

Go ahead and be "realistic" and sleep on Brad freaking Stevens, and the second best East team since they were assembled.

 

 

[T Rex]

 Yeah we got swept by the best team in the NBA, fully healthy, who were the favorite to win it all, with the best player in the world at his absolute prime.

So did the Hawks, except they got swept by a much more depleted Cavs team that was no longer the best team in the world.

How many games did the Hawks win? 

How much better than Brandon Bass is Amir Johnson? How much better is Rozier than Phil Pressey?

Celtics should be able to go toe to toe with any team in the East except a fully healthy Cavs squad, much like last year, actually, but even more so. It’s not the Celtics fault they had to face the Cavs in the first round, nor does getting swept by the Cavs mean that the Hawks weren’t/aren’t a great team.

You say Olynyk was a disappointment, but that just shows that you don’t fully understand his impact. Many/most Celtics fans HATED the Olynyk pick, and they still find any reason, or no reason at all, to declare that he’s not already making a positive impact. In reality, he’s already been making a MAJOR positive impact. And he led all rookies in real plus minus the year before.

You don’t like that he pump faked enough, so that means he didn’t have a big positive impact?

Take a look at the Real Plus Minus leaderboard from last year.

espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/sort/RPM

 If you think Olynyk placing 33rd in the league was a fluke, see if you can point to a single other fluky looking name on that leaderboard from 1-32. Now scan from 34-40. Now turn the page and keep looking, and keep looking.

Does that look like a flukey stat?

There’s a huge difference between putting up simple stats that show up in the scoreboard, vs actual impact on the game, and the Celtics are and were loaded with these type of guys. And all the players who impact the game a lot less than their stats are now gone. It’s not a coincidence, nor was the playoff run without most of those guys. And now the worst of them, Brandon Bass, is out of our starting lineup and off the roster.

Celtics were the second best Eastern team from February on. But go ahead and be shocked when they play similarly this year, with an even better roster, more experience, and more continuity.

Go ahead and be "realistic" and sleep on Brad freaking Stevens, and the second best East team since they were assembled.

 

 

[T Rex]

 You’re way too cautious, especially with Brad Stevens in charge. 

Realistic would have been betting that the Celtics would make the playoffs last year, even after they started 13-26. I predicted a trade and a playoff berth on December 10th last year, and asked rhetorically, "what if the re-build is over?"

Now that’s realism.

Last September or October I was calling Olynyk a top 15 center. He finished 6th among centers in real plus minus.

 

 

 

[BleedGreen808Participant]

 Thanks ZachAttack.  I try to keep realistic expectations when it comes to the team and our players.  

[ZachAttackParticipant]

 See, this is a reasonable Celtics fan… I like you BleedGreen

[BleedGreen808Participant]

 Talent isn’t just on offense though.  Smart has amazing instincts on defense for a young player.  He takes charges and makes plays that don’t show up on the stat sheet.  He’s improving as a playmaker on offense and him shooting 33.5% last season from 3 was better than expected.  His shooting percentages and shot selection weren’t great but he impacts the game a ton.  I can tell by your posts about him you’re not a fan of his game but I’m just curious how often you watch the Celtics games to see him play.  

[Magic JordanParticipant]

 talent relative to other NBA players is obviously what I meant, not everyday basketball players.

[Jr. ROXASParticipant]

Please JDB12.. you can do anything in this site, just don’t disagree with someone disagreeing with T-Rex. 

[Jr. ROXASParticipant]

Please JDB12.. you can do anything in this site, just don’t disagree with someone disagreeing with T-Rex. 

[JDB12Participant]

 Except he’s the kid that gives 110% and has talent… I mean he is in the NBA.

[JDB12Participant]

 You’re calling D’Angelo Russell a poor man’s Evan Turner one game into his career, huh? Explain your reasoning please…

[T Rex]

 Not on a thread about defense. I have too much respect for defense.

 

 

[T Rex]

 Not on a thread about defense. I have too much respect for defense.

 

 

[JDB12Participant]

 You’re calling D’Angelo Russell a poor man’s Evan Turner one game into his career, huh? Explain your reasoning please…

[Rip256]

Rudy Gobert and Dante Exum. Check advanced stats.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rip256]

Rudy Gobert and Dante Exum. Check advanced stats.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DrivingDownTheStreetinmy64]

 Matt bonner aka the white glove!!!!

[DrivingDownTheStreetinmy64]

 Matt bonner aka the white glove!!!!

[SkalAndJamalParticipant]

 confused by how you want your guards and swingmen to be differentiated, but ill just do PGs and then wings. Also bigs would be 4s/5s

PGs:

1. John Wall

2. Patrick Beverly

3. Russell Westbrook

4. Mike Conley

5. Marcus Smart

Wings:

1. Kawhi Leonard

2. Tony Allen

3. Andre Iguodala 

4. Giannis Antetokounmpo

5. Jimmy Butler

Bigs:

1. Anthony Davis

2. Draymond Green

3. Roy Hibbert

4. Marc Gasol

5. Rudy Gobert

 

[SkalAndJamalParticipant]

 confused by how you want your guards and swingmen to be differentiated, but ill just do PGs and then wings. Also bigs would be 4s/5s

PGs:

1. John Wall

2. Patrick Beverly

3. Russell Westbrook

4. Mike Conley

5. Marcus Smart

Wings:

1. Kawhi Leonard

2. Tony Allen

3. Andre Iguodala 

4. Giannis Antetokounmpo

5. Jimmy Butler

Bigs:

1. Anthony Davis

2. Draymond Green

3. Roy Hibbert

4. Marc Gasol

5. Rudy Gobert

 

[Author]

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