[valentine]

T-mac (Tracy McGrady) is the most overrated player…..EVER ( I dont hate him…but im being honest)

He had a good 4 year strecth and then people were calling him a top 5 player. Healthy or non-healthy he could never lead his team to the SECOND ROUND.

Houston lost T-mac and they got Better!!!

To b honest…..hes another reason why the NBA is never balanced. Guys like T-mac, VC, Marbury, Damon Stoudmire: Guard that shoot more than pass and get the big contract to be the #1’s on a team.

agree…disagree? tell me how you feel?

UNTIL YOU CAN FIND ME ANOTHER GUY WHO PEOPLE SAID IN THE NBA WAS A TOP 5 PLAYER THAT COULDNT LEAD HIS TEAM TO 1 SERIES WIN….dont post on this

[WälseParticipant]

i dont think its that simple. T-Mac left and they made it to round 2 so their better off without him. Iverson left Denver and they made round 2 so he must be overrated. Edgerin James left the Colts and they won the Super Bowl so he must have been hurting the team. there are so many circumstances that contribute to these types of situations. i think its unfair to heap the blame on 1 guy, even if he is the star.

That said, he never really had any help and once he and Yao got together neither could stay healthy. The Rockets ran off that crazy streak last year mostly without Yao. Did you for one second think Yao was overrated or that Houston was better off without him?

I think, and this has been said quite a bit, that a large part of Houston’s success this year has come because they finally knew what they were going to have on their roster. Also, they faced an inexperienced Portland team this year. You can look at it in a lot of different ways. But i guarantee that nobody who has played with, against, or has coached T-Mac would call him the most overrated player ever. and for the record T-Mac is a very good passer.

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

He’s definitly not the most ever. Like alpha said, you do have to understand their are different circumstances which lead to different conclusions. TMAC lacked “IT”, but still a great talent. He also never had much of a supporting cast.

[QHaynes123]

I understand what both of you posted…But people were crowing T-mac as a top 5 player and a Franchise Guy, He gets paid like a Franchise guy but doesnt always play like it. Another thing that rubbed me the wrong way was when he said at times….he didnt play hard.

Yao is not overrated….but he is 7’5 and not too many guys are. How many 6-7 to 6-9 gus are coming out of the draft this year? I dont wanna blame it on him because he is a star, i blame him a little bit because he could never Lead his team.

Lebron won a playoff series without help
Iverson won a playoff series without help ( a.i and LBJ lead teams to finals!!!)
Wade won a playoff series with a young Odom and Butler
Jordan won a playoff series without help

Why not get on T-mac and his lack of leading a team? We call him a tier-1 NBA Superstar? come on now.

[WälseParticipant]

T-Mac was a top 5 player in his Orlando days. I cant remember that roster exactly but i think his best teamate was Mike Miller. I dont think Grant Hill was ever healthy at that time. dont quote me on this, but i think their PG was Tyronne Lue. Jordan and Lebron might go down as the 2 best players of all time. T-Mac is not that good and I dont think anybody ever thought he was. Iverson had Mutombo and that defense. And like you said Wade had Odom and Butler. I dont mean to make excuses for T-Mac (which is exactly what i’m doing), but think its totally unfair to call him the most overrated ever. Strong choice of words, dont you think? Underachiever, yes, but professional sports is full of those.

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

He was top 5, but top 5 then isn’t top 5 now. We are lucky to witness what we have now, we have three extraordinary perimeter players in/or close to there prime, who can all D up with best, but offer an array of offensive talent that is unmatchable. But like I mentioned, top 5 then wouldn’t merit top 5 now. You may be forgetting how great “healthy” TMAC was. Also, all players take plays off in every sport, some just have the balls to admit it. It would be ridiculous to think every player plays their hardest at all times.

[QHaynes123]

So can you name another hype NBA player who is more overrated than McGrady and a guy who we had as a top 5 player in the NBA who really didn’t deserve it? I have no one in mind….I mean most people hyped him up but when you think about it…he was a glorified #2 player. Thats why i said guys like T-mac were guys who never kept the NBA balanced…for a 3-6 year period…it was all about making sportscenter

Youre right Lebron and Jordan are probably gonna be the top 2 NBA players ever in history

Iverson had Mutombo…thats it…Iverson had to drop 35-40 points a night to keep them in contention.

Wade had Butler ( who was in his 2nd season) and Odom ( Who you can say he’s over hyped)

So i will say he needed some help…but he did have some role players who could help ( Gordan Giricek, Drew Gooden, Mike Miller, Juwan Howard, DeShawn Stevenson, T-Lue and Darrell Armstrong) And he never made them better.

[QHaynes123]

T-mac was not expected to make those guys better. But if he wanted to make the 2nd round. he should have help make these guys getter around him

[WälseParticipant]

look at that list you just made! Jordan couldnt do much with that! Again, i dont think T-Mac is overrated, just that he underachieved. If the league was unbalanced that’s the GMs fault, not T-Macs. All he can do is play the hand that he’s dealt. Like nthegoodlife said, no professial athlete goes hard all the time. They just are smart enough to never admit it. What do you mean by overrated exactly. His talent was never overrated. No one ever called him a born winner, so i dont think he’s overrated in that sense either. He just hasnt had playoff success. But when he was healthy and in his prime he was a top 5 player in the NBA without question.

[QHaynes123]

Your getting it all wrong…when hes healthy…hes a great scorer…above average passer…good rebounder

I say hes overrated because he never did anything to me to say hes that good. Healthy or not this man is not a top 5 talent. People say top 5 but I rather say hes a top 25-35 player in the NBA today. Sorry to say but ill take guys like (Long List here and I’d take all these guys in their primes) Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldridge, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Jamal Mashburn, Chris Webber, Mike Bibby, Caron Butler, Antawn Jamison Jason Kidd, Baron Davis, Ron Artest among other over McGrady if i was buillding a team…Im Dead Serious

What do you mean Jordan couldn’t do it? Before Jordan arrived…Quinton Dailey led the team in scoring…he won a defensive player of the year award and before Pippen arrived he still won a couple of playoff series. You give Jordan thoes guys and T-mac the talent MJ had before Pippen….MJ would have won a playoff series…Remind me here….wasnt he up 3-1 against the Pistons? Never closed. Up in the 1st Utah series only to go to game 7? couldnt close. Remember that Dallas series?? They let Dallas go to Game 7 and got SMACKED BY 40. Name a MJ team, Lebron Team that happened to? Never

[WälseParticipant]

i’m gonna let this convo die. Now that I see that list, i see that you’ve got something againt T-Mac and have lost all objectivity.

[QHaynes123]

1st off…defend those playoff series for me

2nd- Yea because I rather have a guy who can help Win me 4 games then someone who can score 30 points per game and struggle in the playoffs…CONSTATLY.

also, i should have put Roy , Butler and Aldridge on that list sorry.

[Hood KidParticipant]

he isn’t overrated by any means,when healthy he’s easily the top 5 player in the league,he just had bad luck with injuries which resulted in a loss of explosiveness,speed and hops,and his crucial teammates hill and ming were also often injured,but when healthy as soon as he steps on the court he’s a menace,he can do everything on offense,he can score in a variety of ways and he can shoot it lights out,he can post up,play off the bounce and pull up,dunk on people with ease,make four threes in 35 seconds and he can stroke it just inside the center line witnessed by his showoff with arenas at hurricane katrina tribute game,also he’s a terrific passer(he’s creative,he’s got great vision,feel for the game,great ball handler)and he can be a constant triple double threat,altough he was always first option on offense and had all the freedom,he’s always had many assists,especially for sg,he’s always had a burden of carrying a team and getting wins without much talent surrounding him and he never bailed out on the task,granted he never made it to the second round,but his orlando team was weak without hill,he’s had some solid players,but they were young or just good,and the team lacked great coaching touch and some d,doc was young and inexperienced coach,his houston days are pretty much highlighted by injuries,he’s had some very good teams there,but injuries and strong competition out west kept him from the second round but he did manage to ride a second longest winning streak in the nba history of 22 games,mostly without yao,this team without him is good cause they were able to stay together and portland clearly lacked experience,7 time all star,7 time all nba(2 times all nba first team),22.7 carrer ppg ,28.5 in the playoffs,also he’s got two scoring titles,he did underachieve but he certainly wasn’t overrated,ring is the only thing he’s missing,but it will come,sooner or later

[QHaynes123]

first off…thanks for commenting…but i cannot agree

What does 4 threes in 35 seconds in the regular season say? I says to me…wow hes trying hard….that night
Portland did lack experience…but Utah did not have that experience in their 1st matchup either
7 all star appearances means nothing. Thats a popularity vote sorry.
22 wins…in the regular season. That 22-game streak was good i must admit. But in that strecth they found out that Scola and Landry and Brooks could do something to help the team.
I agree he could shoot, pass and rebound good.
I dont thinks hes a top 5 player healthy or non-healthy today. (Kobe, Lebron, Duncan, Wade, Melo, Pierce,KG just to name a few)

I do think he’s gonna win a ring but not with Houston…i think he leaves and goes to a team to be a #2 TYPE option (Cleveland, San Antonio, Dallas, Denver, Orlando)

isint he a Free Agent this offseason?

[Hood KidParticipant]

he’s a free agent in 2010,you said he struggled in the playoffs,career 28.5 ppg,6.9 rpg and 6.2 apg in the playoffs,i would say he played his heart out,you’re blaming all on him,his teams weren’t good enough,respect to portland but that utah team was better,and this is the best houston team since mcgrady’s there and maybe overall in his career,you’ve trashed 7 all star appearences,what about 7 times all nba and two times all nba first team,in his prime last two years at orlando when he was two time scoring champ, he played like an mvp,was pierce better in his situation,was garnett,was anthony,wade this year?in his prime he was as good as them,put him in a situation of duncan,or get him shaq,or a great defensive team on the east and he’s a top 5 player,that’s weak,unfortunately injuries slowed him down,i’m down with alpha,you’ve got something against mcgrady,it’s a shame really

[QHaynes123]

ok…i dont have anything against T-mac

youre right the 2 all-nba’s are good for him and 2 scoring titles are remarkable honestly. I gave T-mac Credit for his personal numbers but here are his team numbers

2000- series lost to Milwaukee( Allen, Glenn Robinson against T-mac…ok i understand)
2001-series lost to Charlotte ( i remember this sweep…i think this wasnt T-mac’s fault)
2002-series lost to Detriot ( Up 3-1 and lost games 5,6 and 7 by at least 20)
2004-series lost to La Lakers( Fair…cant kill him on this one)
2005-series lost to Dallas( lead the series….allowed dallas back and lost game 7 by 40)
2006-series lost to Utah( Utah’s 1st playoff series since 03….lost another game 7)
2007-series lost to Utah( wasnt a fair series….yao was hurt)
He played the most career playoff games without advancing

He had some terrible series….T-mac is a top 5 player? 4 of those 7 series he had Yao and could not advance?

I dont hate the guy but like Jay-Z said ” Men lie. Women Lie. Numbers Don’t

[Hood KidParticipant]

ha had some terrible series:
2000:16.7 ppg 7 rpg 3apg (but that was his first playoff appareance,he was young and inexperienced,and carter pulled all the strings,all things considered he was still great and against a good team)
2001:33.8 ppg 6.5 rpg 8.3 apg
2002:30.8 ppg 6.3 rpg 5.5 apg
2003:31.7 ppg 6.7 rpg 4.7 apg
2005:30.7 ppg 7.4 rpg 6.7 apg
2007:25.3 ppg 5.9 rpg 7.3 apg
2008:27 ppg 8.2 rpg 6.8 apg
like what???????????????????
he had yao only two times and lost both series in 7 games in the ultra competitive west,but you can’t be serious blaming all those loses on him,team is not a one man show,that orlando team was average,and dallas was great that year,and why exactly is his fault that they lost by 40,did you ever think yao didn’t step up,or that rest of the team didn’t produce,or that team didn’t measure up,or that other team was simply better,it’s like you’re finding reasons to attack mcgrady,lame man

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

Way to hit him with the “numbers” hood kid. You obviously don’t remember TMac in his prime. He wasn’t Kobe, but no one ever said he was. He was still great and was unguardable (it’s a shame injuries have to happen).

[QHaynes123]

PLEASE READ THIS SLOWLY BECAUSE YOUR NOT READING MY POST RIGHT

Once again…thanks for reading

read the 2nd paragraph in my last post

Read the comment next to the series….wow…are you slow?? am i blaming him for all those series?

I watched T-mac in his prime and gave him respect in personal numbers. Well the teams he was on say he couldn’t lead a team. I NEVER HEARD A TOP 5 GUY WHO COULD NOT LEAD HIS TEAM TO ROUND 2 OF THE NBA PLAYOFFS.

and the the top 5 thing makes me laugh. 1st off your saying the wrong thing and maybe you didnt understand me. On the court, Tracy McGrady is a top 15 TALENT…no doubt But when you factor in his numbers (which are good), team numbers ( which are not great so far) and the potential legacy he may leave ( depends on the fans but to me he’s a great scorer and at times was unstoppable but never did it when it mattered) all that says to me was that he was OVERRATED.

But hey….if you can find someone who is more overrated…please name him for me.

[D HampParticipant]

I’ve had enough of this. Anyone who thinks McGrday is overated is crazy!

Now, for a five-year strech he looked like hall-of-fame material. But the injuries have halted his career. It’s sad. Houston actually got better after him (something I predicted.) i would trade him this offseason and keep Artest and Battier, two of the top seven defenders in the NBA.

D Hamp… The most intellegent basketball thinker in the world. Next to Hubie Brown anyway.

[Hood KidParticipant]

first off all he’s not overrated,his numbers are great,he’s definitely a top 5 talent and he was a top 5 player in the league in his prime without a doubt,he’s amazing in the playoffs,in each and every one of the series he was terrific witnessed by the numbers above,all of those guys you’ve mentioned advanced in the second round with not good but with great teams,like bryant,wade,garnett,duncan,pierce,anthony,so it’s mcgrady’s fault he never had luck with injuries and the surrounding talent,yea no one’s buying that

[QHaynes123]

Ok…lets examine this help me Hood Kid

Pierce had Walker, Eric Williams, Kenny Anderson, Rodney Rodgers…any superstars?

Garnett had Spreewell and Cassell….McHale gave KG two aging vets who could ball a lil and they went to the conference finals

Kobe had Shaq…you win

Duncan- he had a old Robinson his first title run and a young parker and ginobili his second title run

Wade- 1st playoff series- had a underachiving Odom and a 2nd year Bulter…

Another Thing, why aren’t you at least respecting the fact i gave him some cred? You never defended his playoff problems and you could not find a guy more overrated…

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

Did he dunk on you at some point, because your level of hate is undeniable.

[WälseParticipant]

QHAYNES is actually Shawn Bradley!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5L8bxVXhlM

[Hood KidParticipant]

i wouldn’t be surprised,i would be mad too if someone dunked on me like that,no matter how great he was

[Hood KidParticipant]

cassell arguably had his best season that year and he was an all star that year 16.6 ppg btw,spre was a second leading scorer 19.8 ppg,and those 3 combined for a highest scoring trio in the league and sczerbiak 11.8 ppg,how bout that,duncan had an all star robinson 15.6 ppg 9.9 rpg 2.3 bpg and kerr,johnson,ellie,elliot,rose,daniels,jackson great great role players,second time he had young parker 14.7 ppg 3.5 apg and ginobili 9.4 ppg but he still had an all star david robinson and smith,jackson,rose,willis,kerr,ferry,bowen,claxton pretty great wouldn’t you say,odom 17.1 ppg 9.7 rpg 4.1 apg,in the playoffs 16.8 ppg 8.3 rpg 2.8 apg,how did he underachieve,butler bounced back in the playoffs 12.8 ppg 8.5 rpg 2.2 spg,eddie jones 13.2 ppg hey he’s an all star,and alston,grant,pretty balanced,those were walker’s all star years,kenny anderson great pg,rodney rogers great role player,joe johnson,battie,delk,baker,williams…he isn’t overrated and that’s why i’m not even looking who is,i won’t give you credit for something everybody knows,what playoff problems he was fabouls,his teams weren’t that’s it

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

I believe thats him, why else would he be so upset about TMac.

[QHaynes123]

your right….and you continue to show you why im correct about why he’s overrated

still waiting for someone to defend the playoff series…..

still waiting to name someone whos more overrated…..

I dont hate T-mac again for the 100th time…Stop acting like i did not give him credit

Also, Hood Kid i must give you cred…and you know what….if you want i’ll agree with you a little bit on the whole “need help thing” but please can some defend those last couple of playoff series?

[QHaynes123]

and the the top 5 thing makes me laugh. 1st off your saying the wrong thing and maybe you didnt understand me. On the court, Tracy McGrady is a top 15 TALENT…no doubt But when you factor in his numbers (which are good), team numbers ( which are not great so far) and the potential legacy he may leave ( depends on the fans but to me he’s a great scorer and at times was unstoppable but never did it when it mattered) all that says to me was that he was OVERRATED.

[QHaynes123]

I think all you guys making jokes…are crazy man

I do not hate T-mac…i always watched him play in Toronto to Orlando to Houston and I never questioned his talent in any post ( go ahead read them) I own the man’s jersey and I will always respect his game. I payed to see the man play so i dont hate him at all.

But , im not buying he needs more talent around him and its not his fault to a point. Everyone is saying he’s a top 5 talent well i need to see a top 5 talent that could not lead his team to a series win. His series stats are sick, I’ll give you that but in the end…Numbers mean nothing if you don’t win. I dont think anyone can find someone more overrated and even then, When i say he’s overrated. thats my opinion.

when you go up 3-1 in a series- you close the deal- T-mac did not
when your team goes to game 7 – you make it your game- T-mac did not and they lost by 40

A.I did not have the best supporting cast in 2001 when he put that team on His back to make the finals

Lebron James had to score when Cleveland went to the finals

Your honestly telling me a Top 5 player cant win me 4 games when it matters?

[Hood KidParticipant]

a.i. didn’t have the best supporting cast but he still had an all star in mutombo also defensive player of the year that year,best sixth man in the league that year in mckie,lynch,hill,snow,ollie,geiger good role players and great defensive team,and hall of famer and coach of the year that year brown,neither did james,but he also had an all star ilgauskas,snow,hughes,gooden,varejao,marshall,gibson,pavlović,also a great defensive team and many good role players,my point is give mcgrady great defensive team and/or a great coach on the east and let him do his thing,and remember both of those teams were no match for the west,game 6 mcgrady scores a game winner,they played game 7 in dallas against a great team nowitzki,terry,stackhouse,howard,van horn,harris,dampier,daniels,armstrong,bradley,come on much much better team then houston that year yao and mcgrady were the only ones in double figures and combined for the 60 of the 76 points rockets scored,and who’s fault is it that mavs scored 116 is it mcgrady’s fault,that detroit series detroit the number one team in the east,magic barely eighth come on,wallace,prince,hamilton,billups,williamson,robinson,curry,atkins,barry,again game 5 mcgrady only in double figures team scored only 67,game six mcgrady 37p11r only giriček and gooden in double figures team overall 88,game 7 mcgrady 21 gooden only other one in double figures team overall 93,to try to put this series on T-Mac would be wrong.I thought he did as much as a great player could do to quote doc rivers’ statement,is mcgrady’s fault detroit scored an average of 103 points while magic scored in an average of 82,is mcgrady’s fault pistons shoot over 50% from the floor,and remember detroit was one of the best defensive teams that year,again no d on his squad and a lack of coaching,i’m telling you team is not a one man show top 5 player or not,wade was brilliant this year in the playoffs,he didn’t advance,not enough help,garnett couldn’t do it without help,how about duncan this year,not enough help,anthony had iverson,stil couldn’t advance,what kobe did without gasol and shaq,he didn’t advance,what pierce did without walker,didn’t advance

[QHaynes123]

and your saying im throwing out bad players…matt gieger?

honestly…im done arguing with you guys

Please forget responding to this post unless

you explain the definition of a top 5 player
Tell me how come he cant close a series…if he is a top 5 player…hall of fame type player he is
who in you Opinion ( since this is mine) is overrated

I gonna say this for the last time….I dont question T-mac’s talent but when you call him a top 5 player…I say that’s overrating him. And with the amount of people saying he’s a top 5 player : i believe hes the most overrated NBA player in my recent memory…I’ll take back the ever part since everyone spazzed on it and I havent live forever. Take it whatever way. You would take T-mac with a top 5 pick is your problem. I rather a guy like pierce. Sorry

Your right Hood Kid, those guys did not have the best supporting cast. But who on A.I’s team could give you a honest 15 points? Lebron had to score alot to keep the Cavs in contention….and both of them made the finals…didnt win….but beats team with a couple better players…and GOT there

and if you can…find out how many times T-mac’s team was the Favorite?

[Hood KidParticipant]

you can say anything about geiger but he played a role on that team,who could give him 15,mutombo averaged 13.9 in the playoffs,and mckie 14.6 so…lebron scored 25.1 but he’s team’s offense was balanced ilgauskas 12.6,hughes 11.3,gooden 11.4,pavlović 9.2,gibson 8.3,varejao 6,and i constantly keep highlighting that both of those teams were one the best defensive teams in the league and they were well coached,your top 5 guys pierce,wade,garnett,duncan,bryant,anthony didn’t advance without surrounding talent so i might be crazy like you and start calling them overrated but i know better,they did all they could but their teams just weren’t good enough to advance or the other team was simply better,but hey i don’t hate any one of them so who knows maybe they’re not top 5 players until they find themselfs on a great team…he was favorite only once,against utah when they lost game 7 103:99,they won all home games but that one,t-mac in game 7 29p 5r 13a 12-25 fg 48% 3 blocked shots and only 2 to,is it mcgrady’s fault boozer scored on a two offensive rebounds in the final 90 seconds,you tell me,is it his fault jazz shot 51.3% fg and 45.5 3p,is it his fault williams abused alston and boozer abused howard and hayes,is it his fault okur scored two three pointers in the crucial moments,his only two of the game

[joecheck88Participant]

mcgrady was a top 5 player, he was like a much weaker better shooting lebron. but lebron has the IT factor and mcgrady doesnt. mcgrady just wasnt tough enough to win big games. its like calling a rod over rated. everyone knows he is the best player in baseball, and he sucks in the playoffs. mcgrady performed well just didnt win. u cant be overrated and drop 32 a game. mcgrady just never had the killer instict. not overrated

[QHaynes123]

Please forget responding to this post unless

you explain the definition of a top 5 player

who in you Opinion ( since this is mine) is overrated

[Hood KidParticipant]

q call me a fool and crazy but if everyone agrees with me and no one with you,doesn’t that make me right,i know that sounds strange to you but this post is not about t-mac so you can read it without prejudice and really figure it out,at least i hope so,that would be a first

[QHaynes123]

Im confused…ok Hood kid answer my question here

did I not give him credit? Read my other posts…i respect the all-nba awards and the all 1st nba awards and the scoring titles…

could you read this please?

I gonna say this for the last time….I dont question T-mac’s talent but when you call him a top 5 player…I say that’s overrating him. And with the amount of people saying he’s a top 5 player : i believe hes the most overrated NBA player in my recent memory…I’ll take back the ever part since everyone spazzed on it and I haven’t live forever. Take it whatever way. You would take T-mac with a top 5 pick is your business I rather a guy like pierce and Allen and Dirk because I feel they have a little bit more of a “It” factor than T-mac

what im am i saying there?

im not being prejudice, i took back the ever part…but i still think hes overrated…sorry man…not beefing with you just disagreeing

[Hood KidParticipant]

find me someone who thinks he’s overrated or that he wasn’t a top 5 player,honestly i don’t think you can

[QHaynes123]

Name me a playoff series he won

How many titles he got? How many players did he help in Orlando when he ask for a trade? Tell me : How much does he get paid? I believe Superstar Money?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080116182400AA8O6bT

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090130075205AAHUsdW

http://forum.sbrforum.com/nba-basketball-handicapping/130038-tracy-mcgrady.html

HE’s never healthy and he was never a great shooter…hes very streaky and he dominated in the regular season and could never PUT A TEAM on his back ( which is always hurt) and win a playoff Series.

We can argue till were blue in the Face….T-mac lacks the it factor, never lead a team to ROUND 2 and is not a top 5 player…

[WälseParticipant]

i said i was done, but i have to jump back in. i still have no idea what you mean by overrated. overrated is Adam Morrison, Harold Minor, Kwame Brown. QHAYNES, you’ve lost your damn mind. could Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Brandon Roy, LaMarcus Aldridge, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Jamal Mashburn, Chris Webber, Mike Bibby, Caron Butler, Antawn Jamison Jason Kidd, Baron Davis, Ron Artest lead a team like T-MAC’s Magic to the playoffs at all. You can say you have nothing against the man all you want, but you are being totally unreasonable. You put Mike Bibby on T-MACs magic and they are at the top of the lottery. I dont think one player on your list, with the possible exception of Paul Pierce could even get those teams to the playoffs, let alone win a series. like Hood Kid said, he was a consensus top 5 player in those Orlando years. what does he need to prove to you? the definition of a top 5 player: a player who the world considers a top 5 player! lol…what the hell do you mean the definition of a top 5 player? its all opinion based and if everyone is of the same opinion (except for you) then its fact. the only reason Jordan is considered the best ever is because the basketball world believes it to be so.

[QHaynes123]

Ok ill reason with you….some of those players we shocking…bibby and Mashburn and those guys ill give you that.

But your Dead Wrong on what Overrated means. Those guys you name were OVERHYPED IN COLLEGE AND HIGH SCHOOL AND BECAME BUSTS. or did you lose your damn mind?

TO be overrated…you got to be at least well at something. Uhh…not everyone thinks hes a top 5 player.

You guys must love T-mac alot because i dont see a top 5 player.

And a another thing…im tired of seeing…oh a 3-5 year strecth he was what ever

Jermaine O’neal a 2-4 year period was the best PF in the East…or dont you remember?
Jerry Stackhouse was good for a 2-5 year strecth
Ben Wallace was being called the best Defensive C since Russell for about a 3 year period.

End of discussion- Tracy McGrady is a top 10 Offensive player….not a top 5 OVERALL PLAYER.

i guess im gonna have to post this again :

I gonna say this for the last time….I dont question T-mac’s talent but when you call him a top 5 player…I say that’s overrating him. And with the amount of people saying he’s a top 5 player : i believe hes the most overrated NBA player in my recent memory…I’ll take back the ever part since everyone spazzed on it and I haven’t live forever. Take it whatever way. You would take T-mac with a top 5 pick is your business I rather a guy like pierce and Allen and Dirk because I feel they have a little bit more of a “It” factor than T-mac

[Stanford hoopsParticipant]

naw he isnt overrated..at one point he was a top 5 player..not only fans thought so but so did coaches and players..its hard to jump on board with you when youre pretty muc the only person that agrees with youre point….iversons team was built around what iverson could do..he was the scorer and the rest were great role players..mcgrady didnt have that..yao was either never healthy or missed awhole lot of games the best team mcgrady has had is this years team because of yao only missing 5 games and the additions..and by youre logic yao ming is also not a top 5 center because he also never got out the first round…other than this year when he was healthy and had a healthy team with him….i also would like to see the stats of his teammates all those years in the playoffs because from what i see he did all he could do in the playoffs did anyone else step up and raise there average from the regular season or raise there game?..cuz you say stats dont lie so id like to see those stats….all these other guys you named leading there team had there teammates raise there level of play and im just wondering if tmacs teammates did the same

[WälseParticipant]

why are you tired of seeing 3-5 year stretch. isn’t that what we are discussing? that he was a top 5 player during that period? you’re right about J.O., Stack, and Big Ben. just as everyone in this chat, outside of you, is right about T-MAC. and yes, most everyone does think he was a top 5 player or havent you been reading our posts. in this forum alone there are 6 to your 1 who think he was a top 5 player. you disagree, and thats fine,but a players standing is a majority rules type of thing. if one guy thinks Jordan is overrated, that does not make him overrated. if the majority of basketball players, fans, and analysts think T-MAC was a top 5 player during that span, then he was. unless you want to go on a T-MAC smear campaign, which might interest you, there’s really nothing you can do about it. since i lack understanding, please define overrated in this instance.

[QHaynes123]

yao is a top 5 center….The NBA doesnt have dominate Centers like they did in the 90’s ( Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Mourning)

McGrady is not a TOP 5 overall players to me…overall

i mean when you break down position-wise

he’s a top 5 guard/forward hybrid..yea i would say he is

Top 5 player overall?…nah not to me

It’s funny how you throw out opinions and people bug out….crazy

[Stanford hoopsParticipant]

of course hes not top 5 now no one is saying that but in his prime a coupel years ago he was..and there isnt really any arguement or proof that he wasnt..fans said it..his peers(playes) said it..commentators said it..everyone except you said it..im sorry but you have no leg to stand on other then youre opnion..im still waiting on the stats for his teammats during those playoffs run and see who stepped there game up during those times other than mcgrady

[WälseParticipant]

thats the thing Q. it’s your opinion, but you say things like “end of discussion” and “he is not a top 5 player” as though you’re right regardless, when clearly you are in the minority here. lets just state the facts. you don’t think T-MAC is a top 5 player and you have your reasons. most people think he is top 5 and they have their reasons as well. agree to disagree…

[Stanford hoopsParticipant]

also by his logic we would have to include garnett in the overrated disscussion before he got good players around him…this is also like saying players arent that great because they didnt win a title…the fact is that mcgrady stepped up during the playoffs( like u said stats dont lie) and his teammates did not..ive looked over the series and the other teams players stepped up against houston but houston players didnt step up..go check it out..facts are facts

[QHaynes123]

Ok : Ill say my statement and you tell me what part you dont like

T-mac is a great talent

But when you say he’s a top 5 overall player…i feel as if your overrated him due to his lack of success

I dont wanna kill T-mac but i feel if your being called a top 5 player- you should be able to put a team on your back and lead them to a series win.

I know its a Team game but T-mac has great stats and he tries his hardest but to me…i cannot call you a top 5 overall player because you offensively great. I dont think he is a top5 overall talent

I personally think its tougher for a big man to lead a team without a decent guard so no…KG is not overrated.

ok…tell me where you disagree…lets have a cool conversation about this?

[QHaynes123]

another thing….i dont like when players have stretches of good season…if t-mac retired tonight….what is his legacy?

[Stanford hoopsParticipant]

if you dont have a supportsing cast its very very hard to lead the team out of the first round…as you saw with d wade its damn near impossible…if wade never would have had shaq and never got out the first round i would still say he is a top 5 talent and he easily could have not gotten out of the first round if it wasnt for shaq and the other players he had around him mcgrady right now is not a top 5 talent but at that time he was..you can only do so much as a player if you dont have any help..esspecially if youre playing against a team that has a very good player and talent around them that steps up…youre success int he nba as a team depends on what youre teammates do if youre teammates dont step up then youre team goes no where..by youre logic granger wouldnt have made the all star team becasue he couldnt lead his TEAM to the playoffs and if you cant lead youre TEAM to the playoffs then you cant be one of the top 25 players in the nba

[WälseParticipant]

if Grant Hill had never had the foot and ankle problems we would not be having this conversation.

[Stanford hoopsParticipant]

if he retied he would have been a very good player overall..basically in the mold of mitch richmond…paul peirce would have been in that same boat if not for the players he had around him..vince carter will be in that same boat even though he has got past the first round…another thing since mcgrady will get past the first round next year whats gonna be youre arguement aginst him then?..not champitonships?

[QHaynes123]

you need to stop that whole “my logic” BS. I like Granger….I think i wanna see him attack the basket so more because I think the Rush-Granger combo looks good.

Wade did get out of round 1 without shaq

So then your saying T-mac is not a good leader?

[Stanford hoopsParticipant]

no im saying mcgrady had no help…who else stepped up besides mcgrady during those playoffs?

[Stanford hoopsParticipant]

obviously youre logic makes zero sense since you cant get one person to agree with you

[QHaynes123]

in the mold of mitch richmond? T-mac reminds many people of Gervin…but OK

and isint what people say every year? when he advances to round 2- i’ll what and see on that because Ron-Ron is a free agent ( btw, read my Ron-Ron stock up post)

I dunno- To be honest, if t-mac wins a playoff series…his career (to me) becomes a what-if career. What if he could stay healthy? you know what i mean?

[Stanford hoopsParticipant]

i never said he reminds me of mitch richmond reread what i was responding to…”if his career ended right now how would u describe it”..and alot of players have what if careers when you have no help

[QHaynes123]

ill just say this am i done : I think T-mac is overrated cuz he never won a playoff series..

thats it…i dont care what you think…kick rocks

[Stanford hoopsParticipant]

good for you

[QHaynes123]

thanks

[Hood KidParticipant]

so you’re standards basically stand only for mcgrady,isn’t that nice,and it’s harder for a big man to lead a team,it’s hard for anyone without a surrounding talent,no need to single out bigman just cause you think garnett’s a top 5 player which he is,but you just don’t get what makes a great player,but hey we all know the true and i feel sorry for you cause you can’t see it

[HaleParticipant]

Winning games really doesn’t have much to do with how good of a player you are. Yes, the truly great ones elevate the play of their teammates but other then maybe LeBron and sometimes Kobe, which wing player does that? McGrady was a top 5 player for a period of time. Is he that now? No. Would I take the top 5 players in 2003 or 2004 over the top 5 players now? Hell no. Shaq, KG, Kobe, Duncan and McGrady were they best with AI interchangable with anyone except KG on that list. Dn’t use wining games as an argument over a players talent though. So he isn’t a Hallf of Fam player, he was a very good one and was great in his prime. If you think about it he is a lot like his former teammate Grant Hill.

[a2Participant]

In the past seaons T-Mac hasn’t been the player he once was. It just seems like a couple of years ago when he was one of the top players in the league. Its a shame that he couldn’t contribute to the rockets succuess in the playoffs and finally making it to the second round. Its hard for me to say he is overrated but at the sametime i agree with the statement for the fact his team has shown they can be successful without him. He has definatley fallin off his game but without his injuries i believe we would still have the great T-Mac. Since that isnt the case i believe, even though i hate to say it, as of now he is now overrated.

[QHaynes123]

I hate to say it too.

I think when everyone looks back on his career. If he does not win a playoff series

i think he could be called, the most overrated player ever

[HaleParticipant]

You care way too muc about this playoff stuff, don’t use it as your only argument. Karl Malone never won a ring, is he overrated? Just because a guy can’t lead a team of misfits in Orlando to the second round and a good team playing better ones with Houston doesn’t make him overrated. He is one man, no the team. Get a real argument about him as a player.

[QHaynes123]

Maybe i am hold the Playoff thing a little too much but it goes back to the whole NBA unbalenced thing as well.

I never said no ring means he’s overrated. Malone help take a team to a title during a time where he was the only inside threat they had. He won a MVP too

I understand he is not the “whole team” but name another guy who we agree who at one point in time was a top 5 player…. ever put his team on his back ONCE. not matter what. 5 game or 7 game series with the lead?

Its more about those series when he lead too. I mean up 3-1?! As a top 5 player, you have to close it out

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

The thing you keep forgetting, is he (barring no more injuries would’ve had many more chances to advance. You’re holding his injuries against him. I’ll just be bold, you suck at life. This is the most ridiculous shit I’ve ever read. JUST DROP IT! He’s top 5 to anyone who remembers how “great” he was at one point and he’s not to those who don’t remember his unbelievable moments.

[HaleParticipant]

Kobe was up 3-1, and lost. Just to use that against you. He should have closed it out.

[QHaynes123]

Let me hurt all of your feelings and end it right now.

Ever Heard of Colin Cowherd? He talks about this on this show. And hes right

Guys like T-mac, Damon Stoudemire, Marbury and Francis

Those guys made the NBA unbalanced ( He said they kill the NBA, i wont go that far)

NBA teams gave these guys big deals and expected them to be superstars. They shoot more than pass. They missed more than make and they could put a team on thier back and lead….like superstars do.

It doesnt matter what you think cuz its all opinions.

[HaleParticipant]

Im pretty sure Kobe and LeBron and Wade didn’t shoot over 50% so that would mean they miss more then they make as well…

[QHaynes123]

1st off….Name another guy who was consider a top 5 NBA player and did not win 1 series

Wade? Lebron? Kobe? Come on now…these guys have proven there top 5 guys

[HaleParticipant]

Garnett went like 8 years before doing it.

[QHaynes123]

I like that you thought of someone ( you were the 1st) but i cannot disagree

Garnett is a PF. He is not normally supposed to take the ball up the court and shoot 3’s an all that

I agree it took him a minute. But in the NBA, its tougher for a team with a big man superstar…to lead the team.

Also, in the West from 1997- 2005. You had to deal with Dirk, Duncan, Shaq, Webber, Hakeem the Dream, Barkley, Kemp and Malone every year. You know? No excuse is no excuse but he was getting pretty much attacked every year and he never had a series lead..i think

[QHaynes123]

nthegoodlife. Your a lame. You write on a post that i have no life? Tell that to other ESPN GUYS AND other sports writers who agree with me!

and please man…grow some nuts and hop off of mines

[HaleParticipant]

No offense but no espn guy or sports writer will agree with you that McGrady is the most overrated player ever, probably won’t even say he is overrated until this last year..

[QHaynes123]

I cant find any stories but yea…to a point…I think overall hes overrated. Youre right too. Not alot of people didnt say he was overrated but alot of Sports people would say he does not have the IT factor.

[WälseParticipant]

Colin Cowherd? who cares? he’s just like any of us, except he has a radio show. he’s just a fan with a forum. the only difference between Kobe, D. Wade, and T-Mac in their primes is Shaquille O’Neal. 1 guy is not gonna accomplish anything in the NBA playoffs by himself. the fact that you use the word “ever” just goes to show that you’re singling out T-Mac unfairly and you just dont like him. thats fine, but you’re alone on this one, so why not let it die? and what is this “it factor”? it doesn’t exist. stop making stuff up. lol

[QHaynes123]

i did let it die….but a couple posted so i answered them…sorry

And if I wrong. Find someone in NBA history more overrated? Test me then…ill play this little game

[WälseParticipant]

let it die brother…i’m not gonna name anyone in history who is more overrated because i dont think he’s overrated at all. don’t you understand that no matter who i name we’re going to disagree? our first issue, is that we have completely different views on the word “overrated”. lets just end this topic…

[QHaynes123]

ok

[Hood KidParticipant]

you’re still on that whole t-mac’s overrated stuff,it really gets funnier by the post,you obviously don’t like t-mac,we can all see it,just cut it out and hold your opinions to yourself and stop vasting our time cause no one’s buying what you’re saying,you don’t even have a case

[QHaynes123]

whatever

[Hood KidParticipant]

i’m so sick of you,just to quote jeff van gundy:”i’m sick and tired hearing it about t-mac,he’s a terrific player,when his team wins it’s a team win,but when his team loses it’s t-mac’s fault,come on just cut it out”

[QHaynes123]

Thank you……im sick of you too…im so done with this topic and its nut-huggers like you who continue to post on it

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

Have an obsession with nuts, so what does that make you. Just admit you hate TMac, one of the smoothest players to ever play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXUfP7fUD5w

[QHaynes123]

You a lame….chill drop it…it doesnt matter

and no I have an obsession with your mom…what does that make me? Your father

[QHaynes123]

You a lame….chill drop it…it doesnt matter

and no I have an obsession with your mom…what does that make me? Your father

[nthegoodlifeParticipant]

mature, thanks for the trip back to elementary school.

[QHaynes123]

And the nuts comment wasnt anything..you know? It wasnt bad..no i was the rude 1….dont post here again

[HaleParticipant]

You started with the nut stuff. Just stop posting, this hasn’t been a good topic for you.

[QHaynes123]

EVeryone should just stop posting then….READ MOCK DRAFT 3.0

[ckowalskiParticipant]

Yao is way more overrated than tmac. personally mcgrady is one of my favorite players so ill try to make this logical and not based on how i feel. Yao was seen as the savior to houston in the 02 draft and he couldnt even lead them out of the first round with the yao/cuttino/francis combo. they tried that for a few years and then got mcgrady for HELP. HELP. not to be the main person on that team. for HELP. to HELP yao. mcgrady didnt get his first big deal until he went to orlando. he was mostly a bench player on the raps for the first few years and then exploded and got a nice deal. he wasnt used to being the first, let alone only option for orlando (I dont think we have to talk about how god awful those orlando teams were).

think about it. even before this trading deadline yao was still the only untouchable player on the roster. why the loyalty to a big man who would rather shoot a fade away than post you up? yao did nothing of value while tmac has been in houston. he regularly breaks his foot in the playoffs and disappears. mcgrady has the fifth highest scoring average in the playoffs in nba history. yao sometime struggles to get double digit rebounding. It took yao 7 years to “lead” his team out of the first round and he had a much better team around him than tracy ever did. Except for the first game against portland he was pretty underwhelming the entire series.

I think if youre going to say anything about tmac it should be that he might be remembered as the best player to never make it out of the first round. Hes not overrated and im pretty sure he wasnt rated as a top 5 overall player coming out of high school. Didnt he get drafted number 9 or something like that? and as far as being up 3-1 it was to the number one seed pistons and the magic were an 8 seed. I think we all know the only 8 seed to ever beat a 1 seed in a 7 game series

[ckowalskiParticipant]

and would you really take the only chance the human race has to see someone actually spontaneously combust in ron artest over tmac?

[jcjParticipant]

@QHAYNES
I think you need to break down T-Mac’s career to understand where the other viewpoints are coming from. In his first couple of years, he didn’t even average double figures (7.0 ppg and 9.3 ppg) and was only at 15.4 ppg in his 3rd year. I don’t think people were rating him Top 5 talent at this stage though they were already recognizing his potential.

He increased his scoring average more than 10 points in his third year to 26.8 ppg, and averaged 25.6, 32.1, 28.0 and 25.7 over the next four years which included his first year in Houston. I believe this was the time he was being rated as a Top 5 talent. And despite his lack of playoff success, we would need to see who else were the stars of the league at this point. Remember that being a Top 5 player is a point-in-time snapshot. In other words, his being a top 5 player in, say 2002-03, does not mean he is a Top 5 player now.

After his last good year, his first in Houston (2004-05, 25.7 ppg), he played only 47 games the following year and his game slipped. He still averaged a respectable 24.4 and 24.6 ppg in 2005-06 and 2006-07, as well as 21.6 ppg in 2007-08 but I don’t think he was still considered a Top 5 player by then. Clearly, he is not one now, not only because of his lack of playoff success, but also because of his injury history as well as the size of his contract.

Currently, McGrady can probably rightfully be considered overrated or an underachiever or overpaid given the size of his contract and his current abilities. But we need to understand that this contract was given to him when he was playing the best ball of his career, and based on his play in the early years, he did deserve it then.

My personal take on this is as follows:

Yes, he was a top 5 player at a certain point in his career.
No, he is not a top 5 alltime player nor even a top 5 player at this point.
Yes, he is overrated now if you consider his contract size vs his performance.
No, he was not overrated at the peak of his career.

Also, determining whether a player is overrated depends on what you are looking at also. Thus, while he might be overrated based on your assessment parameters (i.e. carrying a team on his back = winning a series) perhaps others might have different basis (i.e. carrying a team on his back = making it to the playoffs, and not necessarily winning any series).

[jcjParticipant]

By the way, forgot to mention also that:

No, I don’t think he’s the “most overrated all-time” player. While he may be overrated at this point of his career (and with the contract and hype that he gets now), there were years when he deserved the stature.

Yes, he could be one of the most underachieving player because of his lack of success winning. This though would depend on what standard is used in determining what the standards/factors would be.

[Knicksboy34Participant]

can someone name someone more overrated?

[ckowalskiParticipant]

By overrated do you mean someone who has had a good career but hasnt lived up to some expectation set by someone else because of injuries?

People wouldn’t touch Baron Davis with a 10 foot pole after he blew out his knee and he still led the Warriors to make NBA history. Yao Ming has been out of the 1st round of the playoffs once in 7 years and been hurt 3 times in the playoffs. Gilbert Arenas has barely played the last 2 years because of knee problems and people are already talking about replacing him. Nene tore his ACL 3 minutes into his season 3 years ago after being injured much of the season before, then 2 years ago found out he had testicular cancer, then this year was actually healthy and was great. How many people hated on him when he was out?

Even guys like Chris Webber, Allan Houston, and Jason Kidd never elevated their game to the level it was at before their surgeries.

I would say Greg Oden too but it might be a little early to put him on this list. When he got picked GM’s were talking about building teams around him.

What about Allen Iverson last year when people were calling him out for his back injury? This is a guy who has played through bruises, sprains, pulls, and broken bones and one of the only times he couldnt play his toughness and passion were being called into question.

[HaleParticipant]

More overrated then Tmac now or in his prime?

[Knicksboy34Participant]

in his prime….

[HaleParticipant]

Then probably half the league because in his prime he was a true beast of a player, whose only weakness was his shot selection and defensive effort. He was truly amazing then.

[Knicksboy34Participant]

you see i disagree with that….

[HaleParticipant]

Because his team didn’t advance in the playoffs. That is really all you have on him.

[Knicksboy34Participant]

Well, to be 100% honest, I dont think of him ever in the 2000’s as a legit superstar….he never led his team, he was a great scorer and to me…in my opinion…he was a #2 option who on a losing team, inflated his numbers to look like a #1 option….

[HaleParticipant]

Okay so basically your just making the not advancing to the second round sound like other things. You must not have watched him 5 years ago or been very young when you did.

[Knicksboy34Participant]

Well..im not the only one….

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=mergler/090623

[HaleParticipant]

That has nothing to do with McGrady other then his nickname.

[Knicksboy34Participant]

But …how does one earn a nickname? By doing something…And apparently showing up in the clucth he has not

[ckowalskiParticipant]

Mcgrady was a great player on bad teams, true. But just because some espn analyst says he thinks Mcgrady is done doesn’t mean that he knows what hes talking about. Its just his opinion. Mcgrady led terrible teams to the playoffs. Period. Just because he didnt win a championship by himself doesnt mean hes not a great player. Lebron hasnt won a championship on his own. Is he overrated now? They carried their teams for 82 games, how can you blame them for not having enough left in the tank for another 20+ playoff games?

Mcgrady has been injured yea, but go out and play half a season with no cartilidge in your knee and see how long it takes you to quit.

And if he was the number 2 option on a losing team who was the number 1 option? Mike Miller?

[Knicksboy34Participant]

And if he was the number 2 option on a losing team who was the number 1 option? Mike Miller?

not what i said…he was a really good #2 option who on a losing team, looked like a #1 option. Not every team has a #1 option

[ckowalskiParticipant]

Every team has a number one option. Every team has one player that they want to take the last shot of a game. That’s the number one option. Even now when Mcgrady is getting called overrated hes still the one with the ball when the final seconds are ticking off.

[HaleParticipant]

McGrayd earned his nickname by leading the league in scoring twice, he is clutch. He scored 40 against the Jazz last year in game 7, he was all they had. 13 in 35? How is he not clutch?

[llperez]

In his prime he was one of the 10 best players in the league, possibly top 5 for a season or two. People should not hate on him.

[Knicksboy34Participant]

McGrayd earned his nickname by leading the league in scoring twice, he is clutch. He scored 40 against the Jazz last year in game 7, he was all they had. 13 in 35? How is he not clutch?

First off you spelled his name wrong….second of all, they didnt go to game 7 last year and 13 in 35 is remarkable…..in a regular season game. I wanna see that in a playoff game.

In his prime (2001-2006) he was not top 10. James, Wade, Garnett, Pierce, Shaq, Kobe, Vince, Duncan, Iverson, Dirk, Kidd….

[HaleParticipant]

Omg I typed to fast and put one letter in front of another, jeez big mistake. LeBron was not even close to Tmac when he entered the league, Tmac was better then Iverson this from 02 on, Wade was only better once his team won the ship, Vince has not been better since McGrady left Toronto, Pierce hasn’t been better then him until last year. Dirk same as Pierce. Kobe was worse then McGrady until Shaq left. Shaq was worse then McGrady the year he left. So that leaves Garnett, Kidd and Duncan (maybe) as the only ones better then him during his prime.

[HaleParticipant]

I meant to say game 6 as well, I type too fast.

[Knicksboy34Participant]

I disagree. I mean i dont wanna disrespect T-mac but there are many other guys i would take over him. I just think he’s not that great. His numbers are fine but he never went hard 100%, he could never hit the game winner his team needed, he demand a trade out of Orlando, he is not a #1 option in my eyes. Guys like Pierce and Duncan and Kidd ( i even forgot guys like Davis, Allen) were solid leaders who led their team.

Sorry, From 2004 on, I would have taken LBJ and Wade over T-mac.

[HaleParticipant]

Then you really know nothing about T-mac back then, you don’t know what your talking about saying he never went hard. That is just stupid.

[Knicksboy34Participant]

He admitted it..He Never went Hard, He expected his game to be good quarters 1-3 and by 4 he expected the game to be his- Thats his MO. He has amazing talents but He never put it together all the time. He was never a top 5 player in my eyes. NEVER. You know why Kobe and Wade and MJ and others greats won playoff series? Won titles? They never stopped. They never need to hear : Oh, he never had any help. Im sorry, yupyup, your cool but I cannot hear all that He went hard 24/7 BS because thats wrong. He couldn’t win me 4 games when it matters the most. Im sorry, He a “superstar” that i would never want on my team. If you gave me a option bewteen T-mac and some other stars in his prime….I would take the other stars.

To say he’s close to Duncan in his prime is crazy as well. Duncan is a top 15 ALL TIME PLAYER IN THE NBA.

[HaleParticipant]

He didn’t say he never went hard, he said he didn’t always go hard. Duncan has always had help on his teams too, he has never been on a bad team.

[Knicksboy34Participant]

Duncan was the main part you took Duncan away….pretty bad team.

[Knicksboy34Participant]

Also, Even if he won a playoff series. I will still look to him as overrated. I dont care about the regular season. He never done it when it matters….Case Closed. He is not a closer, he is a guy who will put up 50 against a team to open your eyes but not when it matters. He is a good scorer and thats about it.

The difference between him and MJ and Kobe….DRIVE. Kobe never took a play off. Mike never took a play off……….McGrady admits he does….thats enough for me.

He is a player i would like in quarters 1 2 and 3 but Quarter 4……He wont help me, he is is not a closer.

[llperez]

Not trying to hate, but I’m just curious when you started watching the NBA. The only reason I ask is because it easy to hate on TMac now that he has been injured a lot and never got out of the first round. But there were a few years where he was an absoulute beast and no question one of the best players in the game. I would never put him in the top 3 in any one season, but he was pretty darn close. Think Scottie Pippen with less defense, but a way better pull up jumper. He has either been injured or just did’nt have enough talent around him. I can see why some people think he might be overrated a little, but I think he gets a lot of unfair critism.

[ckowalskiParticipant]

So because McGrady admitted that he takes plays off you are going to rag on him now? Do you really think that Kobe and MJ didn’t take some plays off? Be real. No player plays hard every single play of every single game, but because McGrady comes out and says it all of a sudden he is a scapegoat? That’s like saying you don’t think Barry Bonds used steroids because he hasn’t put a camera in front of his face and said yes I used steroids.

To say McGrady doesn’t go hard because of that one statement is ignorant. Every elimination playoff game McGrady has shown up. Period. His team is usually still in the locker room. McGrady has the 5th highest ppg in the playoffs of all time, a list YOUR boy Kobe and YOUR boy Duncan are absent from. He’s hasn’t made it out of the first round for lack of trying. And how does he get injured if he’s not going hard then? Maybe he’s at home on his lawnmower and falls off and breaks a leg? Or maybe he and Derrick Rose have the same bedtime habits and he stabbed himself with a knife too. Or maybe its when he’s taking all the plays off and joking around with the other team’s coach he pulls a hammie or tears an ACL. I don’t know what you see out there but that’s not what I see. Furthermore, he played half the season when he needed microfracture surgery. Can you imagine how painful that was for a shooter, feeling the bones in your knee rubbing together every time you made a move, and you are sitting here calling him a quitter?

Kobe didn’t close out the suns when the lakers were up on them 3-1, is he not a closer too? It took Kobe 7 games to close out the rockets without Yao and without Tmac. So is Artest or Battier a better leader than Mcgrady now because they “led” the rockets to game 7? Or Aaron Brooks for that matter? And would you take all of them over Mcgrady since, you know, they were “clutch” in leading their team to the second round?

13 in 35 seconds is and will be one of the greatest closing moments of all time. Just because it was in the regular season doesn’t mean its not still special. Is Kobe’s 81 any less great because he did it in the regular season? I don’t think because a clutch performance doesn’t help you win a championship or a playoff game for that matter that it makes it any less great. Its like when the Celtics beat the Cavs in game 7 last year and everyone talks about how Pierce had 41 points. Well he gave up 45 to James also, people just choose to forget that part because they think a championship validates everything that you have done.

[Knicksboy34Participant]

Sorry…he doesnt fit my description as a superstar..

[HaleParticipant]

Knicksboy, I believe you said your 16 making you around 10 or 11 when he was a star, you can’t judge him off of those memories.

[jcjParticipant]

Discussions about the top or best players are always subjective. I don’t expect the writers in this forum to be able to agree on a consensus top 10 list, what more agree on their rankings. I think the discussions on T-mac follow that line. For those who feel he is the “most” overrated, don’t expect to get agreement from everyone coz you never will. Same goes for those who think he is deserving. Ultimately its just our opinions – there is no foolproof way of “evaluating”.

That said, keep up the debate. It does bring out interesting points from both sides.

[Knicksboy34Participant]

I have books of box scores of games from the NBA.

I have old articles from SI, ESPN, and other Basketball Mags……I know im young but i remember alot. I saw games when he looked lackadaisical

[HaleParticipant]

Okay, well what about the games where he was all his team had and put them on his shoulders to win?

[llperez]

Knicksboy just admitted to judging a prime TMac based on box scores and news articles. His opinion is obviously not gonna be as accurate as those of us who saw him play on a regular basisi. I have been a basketball nut my whole life, and I did’nt know nearly as much as I do now about the game when I was 16 years old.

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