[valentine]

Can someone tell me why the C/PF position has always been a weak spot for the American development system.

If we start from the 80s, which is when the NBA became a global league, its been mostly dominated by International players.

For every Anthony Davis, there’s 2 or 3 internationals that are equally good (Nowitzki, Hakeem, Duncan, Towns etc). 

Now the broken records on this forum will take the easy way out like the marshmallow pizzas they are (extra #weaksauce).

Label me racist and point out Shaq, Zo, D12 etc. *Slow clap*. But the list of quality international PGs, SGs and SFs is way less in comparison.

And if I cant ask a legit youth basketball development question on a draft message board without generating backlash, then maybe I’m in the wrong damn place. 

 

 

 

 

[RickSlickCHIParticipant]

I think since the league allowed zoning on D , not allowing alot of 1 on 1 . The Development of bigs has become more stretch 4s than power 5s. Shaq, The Dream ,Zo,Ewing,Wilt, Kareem etc. They lived in the post, not concerned about shooting a 3. So as the new era of the NBA is here more scouting  is pointed to strech 4s causing players to form their game in that way. And the power 5s are being overlooked. I really like Okafor’s post up game. But overall Power 5s are truly missed. I was just watching Blue Chips and examine how heavy Shaq was recruited to help a bad team. 

[Sewok15Participant]

 Tim Duncan is not an international player….he is from The US Virgin Islands. 

Towns was born in New Jersey and played High School ball there as well…just because his mother is Dominican doesn’t make him an international player either. 

Get it together Hype…

 

[Hype Machine]

I purposely added Duncan and Towns because I knew their inclusion would get the nit-pickers and hair-splitters involved.

Its a savvy veteran move designed to draw heat on the forum, and one that I’ve used before. 

 

 

 

[Sewok15Participant]

 Being completely wrong is certainly a move you seem very familiar with. 

[Hype Machine]

But my reply count is high. 

If Will Smith is Hollywoods most bankable actor, then Hype is draftnets most bankable poster.

The role of the antagonist is an important and under rated function in society because it creates unity amongst those by forming a common bond.

Evaluate your workplace. Theres someone there that no-one likes and everyone else avoids. There are profound levels of team building occuring as everyone else gets closer by virtue of avoiding the disruptor. Its psychology 101.

People can say Hype is crazy or consistently wrong (and they’re probably right), but that doesnt hide the valuable function I perform keeping this forum lively and uniting the marks.

 

 

[Sewok15Participant]

 I would equate you more with Jaden Smith than Will but whatever helps you sleep at night. 

[IlladelphParticipant]

Um, how exactly is Karl Towns not American?  Born in the U.S., raised int he U.S.?  Lol.

I think that we are seeing a lot more international big men, because there are way fewer of them.  From a pure numbers standpoint, there are orders of magnitude less 7 footers than there are 6’5" guys world-wide.  So, it makes sense that globally, there is more opportunity for big men than guards.  It’s not like France is overflowing with 7 foot skilled basketball players just becuase Rudy Gobert is in the NBA.  Likewise Spain isn’t known for producing 7 foot NBAers just because Marc Gasol is a good NBA center.  It’s a pure numbers game.  7 footers are rare, and 7 footers who are athletic and can play NBA level basketball are extrememly rare no matter where you happen to be born.  

Does anyone remember the Kandiman getting drafter #1 overall?  That wasn’t because he was a great basketball player.  It was mostly because he was an athletic 7 footer who was drafted on potential.  I’m sure the Clippers GM who drafted him would have loved to have drafted Rudy Gobert, or Gasol, or Nikola Jokic.  But those guys weren’t available in the 1998 draft.  And there weren’t any suitable U.S. 7 footer for that spot, so the Clippers took him at #1!   But hey, the NBA wasn’t as globalized in the ’90s as it is now, and now GMs scour the globe for international talent.  Now GMs have multiple 7 foot skilled, athletic prospects to pick from instead of whatever the US college ranks are producing.

[Hype Machine]

Nice work. I see where you’re coming from.

 

[Robb_CParticipant]

I believe we see more international big men in the league for a few reasons, obviously the first one is european talent have more exposure now than ever before. Secondly, if you take the time and do some research you’ll notice the league pace is no where near the pace it was played in the 70s to early 90s.. The game was at its slowest pace during the late 90s and early 2000s.. This allowed European players to come in and produce due to the fact the NBA pace was being played similar to Europe.. 

[Robb_CParticipant]

 Also I know for a fact that if the NBA today still played at the PACE it played in the early 80s, lots of the international talent would struggle to earn a paycheck. I personally think its overstated that european talent improved so greatly over the last couple of decades, I think it has more to do with the PACE slowing down enough, where international talent can come in and be comfortable to contribute.

[Hype Machine]

Possibly, but I think European bigs have always been more willing to work on skills like passing and shooting.

[Robb_CParticipant]

It has nothing to do with European Talent being more willing to learn skills, it has more to do with European talent being taught basketball theory at a younger age.. Ive worked with and coached european talent at the youth/HS level and the difference between an American Youth Basketball player VS European is the grasp of team offense at a young age.. Ill never forget this kid I was coaching from Serbia, literally was so advanced in basketball theory, where I could have a conversation about differences between offenses and sets etc etc

Now think about that for a second, If a kid understands basketball theory at that young of an age hes going to understand how to operate within an offense.. Which results in a player who knows when to pass and when to score.. Simple as that

[Magic JordanParticipant]

 Come on Hype now you’re just saying stuff to say stuff.

Most of your list included C.  If we include PF the gap grows even further.  

You didn’t mention players like David Robinson, Ewing (America since he was 12, I don’t care if he wasn’t born here he played basketball here). Karl Malone, Dennis Rodman, Barkley.  I mean we could go on and on.  Just look at the list of 50 greatest players from the 80’s on.  Factor in the past 15 or so years of people who were excluded from that list for being too fresh and the gap goes wider.  

How many foreign born big men are even in the top 100?  Dirk, Pau maybe?  Hakeem obviously.  Sabonis?

Since part of your list actually contained Americans which is just lazy (Towns, Duncan).. the reality is for every Dirk or Porzingis there are 4 or 5 Americans.

Eliminating the big man criteria, you know how many great Aussie players there have been?? NONE!!!

 

 

 

 

 

[Hype Machine]

I’ll admit the Duncan/Towns inclusion was strategic trolling to rile people up. 

 

It ranks up there with accusing MJ of using steroids as ways of generating heat on this forum. Its a Skip Bayless move

But on the real, If Andrew Gaze played in America during his prime he would have been a 10x All Star. 

 

 

 

[BeastMode716Participant]

 B/c youth coaches usually just have them stand in the middle & then run down the other end & do the same thing

In college it does not get a whole lot better.

That’s why the Pros are patient w/ young Big men & they rarely hit their stride until 25ish

 

 

[Hype Machine]

WTF are these College coaches doing?

How many of them are actually putting the players long-term development ahead of their programs short term interests? The blue bloods definitely dont.

[The GoatParticipant]

 Scouting has just improved over the years. Same number of big men in the league, just a greater number of non Americans. 

Btw Hype may be pushing buttons, but TD and Towns actually are internationals. Weak argument to claim Towns is American because he was born and raised in the US  but then claim Duncan although he wasnt. Ewing was also born and raised offshore. Can’t have it both ways. 

 

[Magic JordanParticipant]

 I guess it depends on what you defined as "raised"?  If Ewing lived in Jamaica until he was 12, he did all of his basketball growing in America, with American coaches and the American youth system which is what the question asked.  Not where the players were born.  

It’s called the US Virgin Islands.  It’s not a state but a territory, meaning we owns that shits.

How in the hell is Towns an international?  He’s literally spent his whole life here.  He has an American father and a Dominican mother.  Yes he played for the Dominican national team, but that was so he could get reps and recognition at an early age.  He is absolutely American.  

 

 

 

[BiggysmallsParticipant]

 People are getting too hung up on his examples and missing the actual question. 

There is a shortage of quality young big men. 

The position still carries a lot of value, but as the game’s style has changed, so has a traditional big man’s value. 

The game is all about mobility now so the valued bigs are ones who can run. It’s not the "pure low post" guys anymore because that clogs up the lane. The ideal bigs – in most cases as I’m somewhat generalizing – are the ones that set screens on the perimeter and find a soft spot on the baseline for duck ins. They’ve been marginilized offensively to that kind of role. 

The question could be are they being marginilized because they can’t do what "traditional bigs" did or are they being marginilized because that’s the way the game is played now. I’m sure there are cases for both. 

But if you watch a lot of AAU basketball and youth basketball, the talent on the floor is generally from the guards on down. The guys handling the ball are the featured guys and the pace of the game makes it difficult to dump the ball onto the low post and let a big man go to work. 

It also takes a lot of time to develop bigs to play that style. Footwork and post moves take a lot of time and nuance. High-level AAU programs don’t dedicate that kind of time to coaching bigs up and if guys are at camps rather than at tournaments, they aren’t playing games and they aren’t getting noticed. 

The long that goes on the tighter the proverbial noose gets and it just kind of seems to continue on that way. Bigs get less skilled but the athletic freak type guys are valuable because they run the floor, rebound and do the dirty work. 

The notion that Euro bigs are more skilled is probably true but an underrated facet of that entire discussion is the basketball IQ angle. I think there is a general lack in basketball IQ among a lot of good bigs nowadays. Part of that is probably because they’ve been relegated to "screen setting and rebounding" so they aren’t put in position where they have to think a whole lot. But again, I think a lot of is AAU ball where they just go out and play. 

This is a fascinating discussion I think and when people get super defensive about it, I think they are missing a good opportunity. There are so many layers to it and its not black and white. There are good big men of course. But if you go back and look at the Top100 prospects list dating back the last 5-10 years, you’ll see so many big men who faded into oblivion and so many big men who were athletic, but unskilled. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Magic JordanParticipant]

 You hit it on the head.  It’s a very interesting question.  The question of fit in the modern game vs declining big man skills.  I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.  In most cases the modern big is most effective BECAUSE he can’t do those "old school" things.  No NBA player has ever been perfect.  No big man has been an absolute dominant low post player, control the paint while netting 40% of this 3’s before.  So in that regard it’s an either or.  

I think the modern big is successful now because it’s what’s called of him and it’s the way the game is played.

I also think that if you put Shaq, Robinson, Hakeem in todays game they absolutely dominate regardless of the ability to zone defend.  Just look how dominant Embiid looks and those guys in their prime were miles ahead of him.

Speaking of Embiid I hope he stays healthy because he turns this whole conversation on it’s head.  He can be a throw back big, and dominate from inside or he can shoot 3’s.  In a lot of ways he would be the ultimate case study as the variance in his styles will ultimately show which version of him is more effective.  

 

 

 

 

[ChoppyParticipant]

 I’ve been negged before for saying something similar to this before, but I’m gonna say it again. Arvydas Sabonis in his prime would have dominated the paint and shot close to 40% of his 3s. Trouble is, he didn’t play his prime years in the NBA. I’m interested in seeing Embiid’s development because in him I see a similar inside/outside game that Sabonis had. 

[Hype Machine]

 Good response biggy.

 

 Finding out that you were banging Anthony Masons girl made my 2016.

 

 

 

 

[JoeWolf1]

Some stats

14 out of the top 20 rebounders this season are American players
11 out of the top 20 shot blockers this season are American players
There are currently 7 players averaging over 20 points per game that are 6’10” or taller, 5 of them are American

Here’s one that might blow your mind a bit, as most people think of Andre Drummond and DJ as the poster children for failed youth development on the offensive end, but there are currently 37 players 6’10” or taller shooting 80% or better, 24 of them are American players.

Just to flip the script, I wanted to see how many players 6’10” or taller shot under 55% and what percentage of them were American.

There were 21 guys that fit that criteria. 12 were American, 9 were International.

The top and bottom of these FT shooting numbers were not what I initially expected, and sure when people think of the elite Euro bigs, Marc Gasol, and Jokic are insanely stilled, and when people think of some of the elite US bigs, DJ and Drummond are big and athletic, and not a whole lot more. While these stats are far from conclusive across the broad range of basketball skills and overall production, I think they do some to peel back some basic stereotypes of the unskilled U.S. big man.

Joffrey Lauvergne, Andrew Bogut, Clint Capela and Jusuf Nurkic can’t buy a FT either, while the vast majority of the elite rebounders in the NBA are American.

I think there is great value in how many foreign countries develop their talent, and in a way the NCAA system is not the best fit for every U.S. prospect, but America still puts out some elite bigs, and with AD, KAT, and Boogie now the players that young kids look to in terms of inspiration for their games, I don’t think we’ll stop seeing tall kids with wing skills coming up through the ranks here in the states.

[Hype Machine]

 You’re too smart for this place Wolf.

 

It’s undoing all my good work at making these people dumber.

[Magic JordanParticipant]

 Who are you Trump man?  You give yourself too much credit.

[BiggysmallsParticipant]

Good stuff from Joe, though I’ll rebut a few things. 

Rebounding and blocked shots are dominated by American bigs because most of the teams in the NBA start American PFs or Centers. 

So yes, those guys gobble up the rebounds. And guys like Howard, Jordan, Drummond et all do a terrific job cleaning the glass on a nightly basis. 

But that’s their role now. That’s a big man’s role now. They aren’t featured offensive players. They set picks, roll hard and hang out on the baseline for drop passes or quick duck ins. 

Jordan shoots such a high percentage from the floor because that’s all he can do. He’s not catching ball on the post and creating his own offense. Drummond isn’t good when he gets the ball and has to create his own offense. A massive percentage of these guys’ points are assisted. 

That’s not a bad thing. These guys are valuable centers. But they are limited players who thrive in the roles their teams need them to play. 

I do think a side of this discussion that never really gets touched is the notion that Euro bigs are that much better. They aren’t. There are a few good ones, but its not like all the top big guys in basketball are of Euro descent. 

But as a whole, big man play is weaker now. Big men can still be effective players, but they are different. I don’t know how you quantify "footwork" but it’s not as good now. I don’t know how to quantify "post skill" but they seem a lot worse now. 

Again, this doesn’t necessarily mean the game is worse off. American big men are used differently. Some of that might be the players, some of that might be the game. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SeattleSuperChronicsParticipant]

 If Greg Oden never got hurt he has 3 MVPs and 4 championships………hypemachine is just jelly because he is from a country that consists of our drunk and stupid.

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