[Michael.S.Participant]

I think A.I. and T-Mac are the greatest players to never win a title.T-mac in my opinion if he won a championship and never was injury prone he could of been better than Kobe and Jordan because he is that great .Allen Iverson is the definition of a winner even though he never wonit all becuz he really was the only player ever 2 single handedly cary a team 2 the finals and will his team to victory against one of the greatest teams ever asembled.

A.I. and Tmac 2 of the greatest players ever

[Knicksboy34Participant]

no Charles Barkley = greatest number to wear a ring

T-mac in my opinion if he won a championship and never was injury prone he could of been better than Kobe and Jordan because he is that great- I agree with the 1st part. I disagree with the whole better then Kobe and MJ.

[sheltwon3Participant]

They should join forces since t mac can handle the ball and make plays. AI should take a pay cut and go to a team where he can succeed. AI would be more deadlier than Aaron Brooks but he would also have to understand that TMAC, Ming and maybe Ron Artest in on the floor as wll. TMac does not play hard enough to top Kobe but I will say this he is more talented and gifted than Kobe and Jordan but he does not have their drive.

[RemarqParticipant]

Karl Malone, if I am not mistaken, never won a championsip. If Im right, then Karl Malone is absolutely the best player never to win a ring.

[Knicksboy34Participant]

yes. My bad.

1.Karl
2.Charles
3.Stockton

T-mac is the best player never to advance to round 2

[Sorry.Winning.Participant]

maybe stockton above charles i mean stockton is the all time leader in assists per game and i think all time steals.

Although I do agree those are the three that are the best

[j1232eParticipant]

All time steals and assist leader never won the championship.

[apb540Participant]

I have been able to watch AI throughout his entire career in Philly and I have never seen a player play as hard as Iverson did every single game. No matter how he or the team was playing, he still went all out on every single possesion. If the Sixers front office would of taken guys such as Chauncey, T-Mac, Dirk, and Pierce instead of Keith Van Horn and Larry Hughes then we would never have this thread lol.

[Michael.S.Participant]

great first post

[PringlesParticipant]

Karl Malone
Charles Barkley
John Stockton
Patrick Ewing
Dominique Wilkins
Pete Maravich

LOL, did you really just compare McGrady to Jordan?? McGrady doesn’t even play defense!!!

[j1232eParticipant]

works very hard i will give you that, but i think he ruined van horns career like he would have ruined dirks career.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Karl is definitely the greatest player not to have won a ring. As far as Allen Iverson goes, he could be right up there even without a ring, but that is a big if. No question Allen I has been an amazing player to watch and a great scorer, certified Hall of Fame player. But, it really will depend on how his career plays out, his scoring average will undoubtedly dip, plus the recent revelation people are having that his style of play might have been holding his team back more than helping it will certainly affect his legacy. It has at least affected how I see him. If he was a solid part of winning a title, there is no doubt my opinion would change dramatically, and he would rise in my book, because winning a ring does that with me, much more than just having been to the finals.

Tracy McGrady as well is a fantastic player who is very accomplished in his regular season accolades and I believe he won a couple scoring titles, but he is 12 years deep and has yet to get past round 1. It was sad to watch his team play without him and get to the second round, which of course ended Yao Ming’s streak of play-off series 0fers. If T-Mac is healthy next year, and the Rockets won the title, which is a big if considering all the other players who would have to be healthy also, than of course people would change their perception on him. As of now, he is to me, unlucky and honestly, slightly overrated. He has been on bad teams, played with guys who have gotten hurt and been injured himself, but he chose his road, and far worse players in the eyes of many have lead their teams past round 1 and been bigger in the play-offs than T-Mac. Once again, the dude is a Hall of Famer, their were many years where I considered him a top 5 or so player, but as far as legacy and ranking on an all-time scale, he is not too high up on my list until he proves he can get it done in the post season.

[KevinDurantRocksParticipant]

That John Stockton is the greatest player ever not to when a title. T Mac is a great team player while Allen Iverson will never when a title cause of he is selfish and his game doesn’t make up for it anymore

[PringlesParticipant]

Bernard King > Tracy McGrady

[apb540Participant]

I completley understand why people consider AI to be selfish but after watching him for 10 seasons I can honestly say that he was NOT a selfish player at all. Now he was never a Stockton or Nash but he was not a selfish player either. The reason that I can validate this is because Iverson played on some absolutley awful teams and had he not shot such a high number of shots, the Sixers would have been at the bottom of the league his entire career. AI never got to play with a legit number 2 scorer such as Kobe and Shaq/Gasol, Jordan/Pippen, etc. Tyrone Hill, Matt Gigger, and Eric Snow were some of AI’s number 2 options during his career so you can see what I mean haha.

[xbadgerhustlerParticipant]

why didn’t ai do better with carmelo apb?

[xbadgerhustlerParticipant]

Karl Malone and John Stockton were the best duo I’ve ever seen, in terms of making each other better relative to their actually abilities. Both were GREAT players but they were (almost) unstoppable together, but for some guy from UNC.

I also haven’t seen that many duos play…

You can never fault AI for giving it all in games, but I just don’t think he made those around him that much better. The Chauncey factor in Denver brings this to light more than anything else. When AI made it to the finals, he was my favorite player to watch HANDS DOWN, but that doesn’t necessarily mean he made his teammates any better. They just had a veteran group of defenders who took care of the ball and made it to the championship in a weak Eastern Conference.

And AI didn’t practice and he still doesn’t understand the value of practice and that’s why he hasn’t gotten better. He is just so gosh-durn talented that he doesn’t even have to improve, he’s still one of the best in the league. (i’m not saying he didn’t practice at all, but there is practicing and then there is effective practicing~ the kind that actually makes you better)

TMAC is also an UNREAL talent. 13 in 35 seconds is the most amazing sequence of events i’ve ever seen in basketball. anytime someone says a game is over cause it’s a 10 point game with a minute left, i think about TMAC…. wow. too bad TMAC was injured so much. I think you can also put him in the category of didn’t make his teammates better… As far as I can remember, TMAC hasn’t ever had a primo facilitator on his squad… maybe that’s why he’s never won one

[birdman1113Participant]

Iverson never had a very good team, before him and melo were together but the nuggets couldnt play defense. but t-mac has always has had a good team with either yao or carter but he hurts his team by shooting too much.

[birdman1113Participant]

because melo back then was a ballhog.and there wasnt anyone who would lead by example like billups does now and get them to play hard on defense.

[SmooveKRYPTParticipant]

I think if they would’ve played on the same team prior to this past season they definately would’ve won 1 together…they complement each other perfectly, AI is a scorer who can pass when forced to, and Tmac is a great scorer as well, but he loves to pass and set up teammates to score…with the injuries they dealt with this year I think both of them are gonna see massive pay cuts when they expire, and teams are gonna be skeptical of whether they can still carry a team, but they have no doubt had great careers…they are both in the top 5 in playoff scoring averages!!!
and yes Tmac would’ve been better than Kobe had he stayed in ORL and never been hurt, hes a way more complete player, who can score just as much(if not more) than Kobe…Houston’s system didn’t fit his game and he still put up stellar #s!!!

Both guys will have new homes by Feb…hopefully they both win a championship within the next 5 years, cuz if so they are both sure fire Hall-of-Famers!!!

[apb540Participant]

My favorite interview of all time haha. But yes I will give you the knock on AI that he does not make those around him better such as a Billups but Billups had some talent around him that he could make better (Prince, Rip, Sheed, Melo, JR). Before i get slaughtered, I am not knock Billups at all, I have tremendous respect for the way he plays the game. And as far as AI’s time in Denver I cannot comment on why he did not succeed because I was only able to watch him play 2 or 3 times a year out there compared to 82 when he was in Philly.

[butidonthavemoney]

If T-Mac is the best player to never win a championship than Zach Randolph is a hall of famer.

Iverson is better and he cares more than T-Mac, but he was always playing out of position. He wasn’t a very good defender either, but he got a lot of steals.

[Knicksboy34Participant]

no they are not…Nash? Dirk? LBJ? Howard? Melo? Paul?

these guys are way better and they are better players and these guys never won a title.

[apb540Participant]

They would have played together had the Sixers taken him instead of Van Horn (TMAC did go 9th while we had the 2nd pick that year but not the point). Billups actually went 3rd that year so Billups and AI could of played together and IMO that would have been a deadly combo.

[PringlesParticipant]

Patrick Ewing >> Tracy McGrady

[Michael.S.Participant]

lilikwon1

I think sometimes great players just don’t ever get put in a situation where they can win like A.I and T-Mac. Tmac had Yao but it seemed like neither 1 was ever really 100 percent come playoffs and T-Mac did everything possible 2 try to get his team out the first round ranking top 5 in career playoff avg.ppg,and A.I scored 48 in a finals game against 1 of the most dominant teams ever and killed them time after time so in my eyes he’s a winner

[apb540Participant]

very well said

[Michael.S.Participant]

the only player u listed there that you can possibly argue is better than prime tmac or a.i is maybe lebron , and i say maybe because his career achievments hasn’t surpassed ai or tmac yet and him not winning a title don’t mean anything cuz he’s still only 24

[STEVEDOT2Participant]

Reason A.I didnt do well with carmello at first is they juss sit there and wwtach iverson score really. With billups he forces them to move around since he is a playmaker he make sure everybody get touches and plays hard. Iverson was a scoring gaurd and his job was the score the other nuggets didnt play hard enough they had poteinal i think they score 165 point or some high number when iverson was with them but thtas some nights. hes not selfish he just uses his gift to score. people downplay iverson when hes good so is mcgrady just like in the bobcat topics everybodys screaming dont get iverson dont get iveron forgetting heshes a allstar cal player and is on of the best pass lane defenders in the league.

[Michael.S.Participant]

i want2 see ai play with brown and i really dont like 2 see superstars win the title after their prime

[sheltwon3Participant]

TMac is just as skilled as Kobe and is more talented as far as natural ability but he is lazy compared to Kobe and working hard is part of the equation of greatness. Look at Jordan there are actually a lot of players more physically gifted than Jordan and may have had more skills at a earlier age because of natural progression but they have not touched what makes Jordan great. Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan. Lebron is a whole different player than Jordan and is actually bless with great raw ability than Jordan.

[xbadgerhustlerParticipant]

I think that what Denver has done says more about chauncey than it does about AI… they just weren’t a good mix of talents before and chauncey is just deadly.

SEARCH FOR AN ARTICLE ON ESPN ABOUT CHAUNCEY~ it’s a great piece. it’s kind of long so set aside some time. sounds lke denver pre chauncey was really disorganized and didn’t even run out of bounds plays… and that was not the first time that chauncey has bounced it off someones back in a bigtime situation for an open layup.

that’s a must read, seriously. it was put out about a 2-5 weeks ago

[xbadgerhustlerParticipant]

here’s the link:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=090511/billups

seriously. you will love chauncey

[eprizzle14Participant]

It’s rare great big men dont win a title.

[tuck243Participant]

Tracy was one of the most talented players to ever grace the league… By far was a better player than LBJ 6 years into the league… Meaning had a better game… T-Mac played D when he could… I watched him lock up Kobe, Carter, Ray Allen, and Big Dog… But I understand why he didn’t go hard on that end that much… He had to do everything on the offensive end… When Tracy was healthy, he was by far Top 3 in the League… So for ANYONE to disrespect what he did is dumb… He didn’t have a team in Orlando and in Houston never could stay healthy… Its sad how America is “what have you done for me lately”…. Just last year he took a YAO less team and went on the best winning streak ever in the NBA… So the skills is still there, but that window is closing ASAP… He just turned 30…

[crispcountyParticipant]

Before anyone else calls A.I selfish, let’s compare his stats besides Chauncey Billups & Tony Parker. A.I has career averages of 27.1ppg 3.7 rebs 6.2 asst 2.2spg. Billups 15.1ppg 2.9rebs 5.6 asst 1spg . Tony Parker 16.7ppg 3.1 rebs 5.6 asst 1spg. As you can see A.I has better numbers across the board. A.I played on subpar sixer teams for most of his career & he was asked to score the ball (& if you read that article on billups, it tells u that he was asked to do the same thing early in his career). I would not say that he was selfish, but he had to do what was necessary to keep his team competitive. Granted, Chauncey Billups is by far the best facilitator & leader of the three, but for A.I to be called “selfish” is a bit far fetched considering he only played the pg position for 2 years yet his career asst numbers are better than 2 top ten point guards in the nba. He also rebounds better & collects more steals. I won’t even mentioned the scoring b/c that’s what he does best

[NYK2010Participant]

Ewing didn’t win a title because he never had another All-Star type player play with him. Malone had Stockton, Robinson won nothing without Duncan. Only time Ewing played with some real talent was end of his career with Allan Houston and Spreewell but he kept getting hurt then. Imagine him playing in the 90’s with a guy like Wade or Kobe.

[xbadgerhustlerParticipant]

weren’t both tmac and yao out when the rockets won those 22 or whatever in a row? I thought tmac was out for the whole thing and yao went out midway through. i could be wrong though

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

LeBron James has played in the league for 6 years and his career achievements have most definitely surpassed Tracy McGrady. He has won an MVP, lead a team to the finals and has made it out of the first round I believe every year he has been in the play-offs. So, I think that is a moot point, mikenike.

[knicksfreakParticipant]

Ewing’s problem was that he made the Knicks good by himself and they could never suck enough to get another good player in the draft.

[Michael.S.Participant]

didn’t they hav starks,spree,and houston

[knicksfreakParticipant]

All different times. Starks was the only one there when Ewing was in his prime and He was only a good role player. The best were the tough-guy knicks with Oakley and Mason. Heres a pretty cool list; Bad boys of basketball.

http://msg.com/photos/bad-boys-of-basketball/slide/1/

[tuck243Participant]

I said “Meaning had a better game” Go look at Tracy’s stats 6 years into the league, then remember how COMPLETE his game was… Compared to LBJ I would say Tracy had a better game… Not knocking LBJ tho, he’s a great talent…

And yes Tracy was healthy… I was in Houston at the time…

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