[OhCanada-Participant]

Yeah I’m back muthafucka’s, Anyways enough about me.

This is the guy. I still pick Cooper Flagg 1st overall. I still think Nolan Traore is amazing and will have the better first 3 or 4 seasons. Egor Demin looks unreal as well. And I still think Ace Bailey will give you those Lamelo Ball stats on a team that will never win anything. But if you really wanna build a team that wins a Championship and wanna draft your go to guy for the next 15 years it’s VJ Edgecombe. He has too many talents that you can not teach like the elite of the elite athletisism. Competiive nature to the point where you can see theres real passion there. Its about winning every possession with him. You cant teach that. And he’s good everywhere. Really hope he ends up a Raptor, I’ll take Flagg or Traore as well but this guys gonna be a stud. Same thing I said about SGA years ago when I said he would be better than Trae Young and Collin Sexton. Might take 5 years but this dudes upside is unreal.

[HitsterParticipant]

Great to see you back, if Toronto do have a tanking season this is the one to do it. They can pretty much take any of the top prospects and they would all fit in well with Barnes as the team’s top duo going forward. A lot of the guys look elite scoring prospects and Cooper gives you a lockdown defender who has great all round game without needing to be the team’s focus.

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

Edgecombe’s had his shooting difficulties in college so far, but I still agree – I’m on the Edgecombe bandwagon too. I think he could be an OJ Mayo/Victor Oladipo/D Wade type player with the heart of Westbrook depending on how he matures. Still have him in the lottery in a very good and deep draft. Hope his skills get some fine tuning though so he can reach his maximum potential.

I think Toronto could use most of the top prospects atm. Cooer Flagg’s a no brainer. Ace Bailey could be good for them, Dylan Harper might be just as good though – and they could plug him in just as easy if not easier. Tre Johnson has been playing like an absolute beast. I can see him developing into a DeRozan role. Demin is ridiculous versatile good. Edgecombe I like a little more than Traore, but both have shown flashes of what they have. Will Riley would be an awesome fit. Maluach could be the shot blocker they’ve been looking for… Asa Newell can just hoop. Saraf and Essengue have been solid. Boogie Fland has been pretty good and already in a rotation… Jakucionis as well… Deep solid class that seems to be immediate fruition.

[HitsterParticipant]

I was looking at NBA Draft Room and they have Ace Bailey’s comparison as T-Mac which I can see as an elite upside of his offensive game. But they have thrown in Josh Smith too who was much more of a physical defensive player. If Ace could have something like T-Mac’s scoring and Smith’s defensive game then we are talking about a pretty elite player who could challenge Cooper for top pick if a team wants more of a scorer?

I like Maluach as a fit for the Raptors too but feel they maybe need the best scorer they can get if they miss out on Cooper.

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

I’ve seen the TMAC comp too… it’s not terrible, but he’s not quite TMAC athletically. Ace is no slouch by all means, but TMAC had an extra level. He does look to score first a ton though, which is similar to TMAC. Not sure if he’s a hybrid of those 2 players yet – maybe that’s what they meant, but I don’t have a good comp for him yet. He hasn’t played in college yet. From flashes I’ve seen, I believe in his abilities though. But lets play the game… if he is something like TMAC meets Josh Smith, that’s a heck of a player…

I think Cooper Flagg’s the #1 pick regardless at this point. He’s legit, he’s a student of the game and has either improved his offensive game altogether or was being kept within a box playing at all these HS events. His dribbling and passing have gotten better even though it cost the last game at the end. He’s making great reads on and off the ball – his defense we know is great… Imo the race for #2 is more tight than #1. Either way it’s good to be in the lottery this year.

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

Funny – I think a comp for Ace Bailey is a springier version of Carmelo. Carmelo was a college great in his one year and was ahead in the winning aspect scheme of things, however Ace Bailey loves to shoot the rock like Melo and will make tough shots like him. He’s a similar size to Melo and is better scoring in game situations more than anything. Ace has little more jump which might help some on the defensive end compared to Melo as a prospect. Ace averages a descent number of stocks, but the defense still is a work in progress. Carmelo was never a consistent defender, but when he really wanted to he wasn’t bad. A springier version of Melo might have averaged more stocks on that alone. Their mentalities are very similar. Stone cold scorer and want to be the reason the team wins. The size between the two of them aren’t that far off… Stylistically speaking somewhat similar, the paths are opposite though. Melo lead his team to a title – Ace doesn’t even have the offense run through him first yet in a real designed way – unless you count a game of H.O.R.S.E. on the court in game against his teammate Harper.

I can kind of see the TMac Josh Smith hybrid too. I do think Ace can score similar to TMac or Melo, but he isn’t the playmaker TMac was and as said before TMac is a crazy super athlete. He could be a scorer like TMac and does get the technical stocks Josh Smith had though. But imo Josh Smith was a solid defender. Ace is an average defender. Smith and Bailey are somewhat similar builds too…

As for Edgecombe, I need to see better execution of his skills, particularly offensively. He needs to shoot better and work on his form. He might want to tighten the handle too, as he’s a smaller guard who will have to relieve the floor general from time to time. His defense has been risky, but worth it more often than not. His athleticism, defense, and precollege performances are what’s keeping him relevant. I want to see more from him though.

[HitsterParticipant]

Yep the top 6 or 8 could easily be guys who could go in the top 3 in other years. The Spurs could have 3 lottery picks just looking how the picks currently stand and Utah likely keep their own pick and get two later first rounders via trades they have done and those two later picks could be like lottery picks in lesser drafts.

[OhCanada-Participant]

Ace Bailey has got some serious defensive concerns with his fundimentals nd effort. Over an 82 game season in the NBA there will be plenty of oppurtunities for him to take off plays or coast like a James Harden or Carmelo Anthony. How he plays on that end throughout the year will have a big impact on his draft position.

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

Agree there for sure, it’s almost like MPJ defensively and that’s not a compliment… lol!

[HitsterParticipant]

With Ace a lot could depend on which team drafts him it is the same for a lot of these guys as some teams have players already in situ who might be the main ball carrier. The Raptors and Spurs are the two teams off the top of my head who could take pretty much any of the consensus top 5 guys and they would fit in seamlessly.

Ace I want to see how he plays alongside Dylan Harper across the whole NCAA season to compare their work ethic, defence and how they co-exist together. This will tell us a lot about their draft potential.

[HitsterParticipant]

If Ace isn’t a great defender but could be anything like Melo or Harden was on offence then I don’t see that being an issue. You can build a contending team around him. But would it be a bit like Melo where for many years you assumed the season ended in April.

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

No way he’s ever the passer Harden became. Melo wasn’t quite Harden on offense. But he was a big time scorer though – And yeah I can see Ace scoring 30 a game if he pans out… that’s a good pick from a prospective level imo.

[OhCanada-Participant]

I don’t know man. Have you been watching those Rutgers games? I’m not sure Bailey would get drafted top 5 if the draft were today. Theres alot of issues to his game and not just defensively. To score 30 points per game you basically have to have the ball in your hands all game and it does not look like Bailey currently has the court vision or ballhandling creativity to be trusted as the primary ball handler for a team in the NBA. Its still early in the year and he’s going to have plenty of oppurtunities to showcase whether he’s just taking a backseat to Harper, or even to improve and further develop but there seems to be some holes in his game for a guy that is being considered as a 1st overall pick in a deep draft. The T-Mac comparisons are defenitely a bit wild right now.

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

There is a chance Ace does bust and becomes Michael Beasley in the league, but I’m not there – I don’t think he’s near a finished product atm.

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

Ace can put the ball on the floor some, but more on a Melo level than TMac for sure… Rutgers lost tonight but played their best game so far this season likely. Alabama was a worthy opponent and proved it. Dylan Harper ran a good game too but they just ran into a good team tonight.

[HitsterParticipant]

Yep Harden took time to become an elite player but at his peak he was the best scorer in the NBA and his scoring, shooting and passing was above even peak Melo. Harden with his passing and shooting I think could go on as long as CP3 has.

There have been loads of superhyped busts in recent times Beasley, Mayo and Jabari Parker ( mainly injury based). Only rare years like 03, 07, 08, 09 etc we get several superstars out of a single draft.

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

It’s true… but I feel between this year and next years’ drafts it’s a remix of having the 1984 and 1985 drafts back to back. Imo this draft is going to be the best we’ve seen as far as top 25ish prospects since one of those years you mentioned. And next years’ class might be even better. Time will tell though. So many teams have multiple picks too which might factor in some weird scenarios…

As for Rutgers – I’ve caught most of the Kennesaw State game and have seen highlights every night. Haven’t caught any other full games of them that I remember off the top of my head this year – so I’ll give them a shot – against Alabama tonight!!! That should be interesting.

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

Wow, just watched Barlowe and he had the same Melo comp!!! I had know idea he had that one!!! Yeah Harper’s been stealing the show with ball handling/hogging duties and between the 2 of them they haven’t played good team ball. It’s literally a game of H.O.R.S.E. on the court and what are you doing if you’re off in that situation? Not as much as a winning atmosphere for sure. They’re still legit prospects imo.

[OhCanada-Participant]

I didn’t watch the Alabama game or the highlights but I see he scored 22 points which is good..The Melo comparison is actually really good because he just stops the ball. Its always a few jab steps or a shot fake before he makes a move. Then a one dribble step back jumper or pull up. Alot of his shots seem to be off balance too and too his credit he makes them but its just unnecessary, not many people are blocking his shot so just shoot them straight up like KD.

What I really wonder is how receptive he is to criticism and how open he would be to playing a lesser role at the beggining of his career while he’s developing. If a Top 3 team says ‘listen, were gonna pick you but the first 2 years of your career we just want you in a Jaden Mcdaniels role” how would he respond to that?

None of this is to say he’s a bust either but my comparison for him personally would be Micheal Porter Jr. without all the injuries.

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

Dylan Harper’s a little ahead of Ace imo – in fact Demin’s getting tested as I type against Ole’ Miss atm and I might owe Dylan Harper an apology… he could be the 2nd pick after all. It was still a game of H.O.R.S.E. on the Rutgers offensive end in a sense, but Harper and Bailey brought it. Harper did whatever he wanted to against anyone on the court. and it’s what made the game close. Meanwhile Egor Demin is looking a little shaky for himself this game so far in the first half at least. His energy is just starting to turn the corner though – we’ll see…

I’ve seen the MPJ comp pre injuries for Ace and, it’s not bad actually. Imo MPJ was a little better passer and Ace might be slightly more athletic, but the builds are very similar and they bring instant offense to the table. MPJ without injury is a great what if story btw… I think Ace would have to be one of the reasons his team is scoring, even if it were a 6th man role… Idk though, still on the fence with his defense. Sometimes it looks ok and sometimes it doesn’t.

[OhCanada-Participant]

For me its the fact that he’s clearly not projecting as a 1st option but as an elite/championship level 3rd or maybe even 2nd option. Just doesn’t have that instinct to get others involved or create oppurtunities for others, which is fine because he is lights out shooting. Could you imagine Bailey playing off of Cade Cunningham or Scottie Barnes in a MPJ type role.

How many 35 point games does Harper need to have before he passes Cooper in peoples big boards? He looks like Brandon Roy out there. I wasn’t convinced he was legit and didnt really say anything because I wanted to see him play first but the guy just has a different level of feel for the game. Just like Luka when he came out. Not athletic enough for the NBA. Same with Harden, they said he had no first step. I’m getting those same vibes from Harper.

One guy I’m really impressed with was Tre Johnson. He recently had a tough night against then classic stingy Syracuse 2-3 zone that everybody struggles with. But its how he went through the struggles. If you watch the highlights video you can see all the different ways he tried to beat it. He tried shooting over it and when his shot wasn’t falling he went to the rim, he tried running off screens and he went to the midrange pullup game, then the midrange post up game, he started to get physical with the other team drew some fouls and eventually iced the game from the free throw line. The play by play guy said he missed 10 shots in a row but it never seemed to phase him he was just focused on finding the solution and he showed me he has the skillset to be a number one option in the NBA. Not sure I would pick him over Bailey just yet but he’s up there.

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

I just saw that Roy comp… I agree with you it’s pretty good one… I think Cooper’s a littler better in talent, but if you look at team needs – well the guard spot comes up a lot and if they’re not far off, who knows?

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

Do you think there’s a world where Tre Johnson passes up Ace or Egor?

[OhCanada-Participant]

Absolutely. Although theres also a world where Ace Bailey runs away with the #1 pick himself. Rafeal Barlow said it best. The best thing about this years draft is that all the top talent is in the NCAA. Makes the draft race easy to watch and monitor and its alot of talent this year too.

[HitsterParticipant]

Harper has been on fire the last two games 36 and now 37 points. He went to the FT a lot in the Alabama game so must have been getting into a lot of shooting positions. I’ve not really seen the game just the highlights and box score.

Ace in a Reed Shepherd early James Harden NBA type role as top scorer from the bench I can see. MJP I always thought his jump shot was his biggest strength.

MJP for all his having to sit out his 1st year and only playing 9 games in his 4th year and the chaos in his family he was a key player on an NBA title winning side and got a huge 2nd deal so he is doing pretty well. But there is the what if that he could have been an all star and possibly a superstar rather than just a very good NBA player. But I bet a few better players would trade their stats for his title.

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

Harper brought the ball up every play and went iso, passing it off when doubled and schooling the single coverage on him no matter who it was. He’s been unstoppable and looks like the 2nd best prospect… however in many situations the top team might want to pick a guard instead of a forward… Interesting if say the Wizards are sitting their with the first pick. Would they dare pick Harper first? Would they dare trade Flagg? Pass him up one way or another? Not sure, I guess anything would happen… They do have 4 picks as of now though, so plenty of options I guess…

I know it’s pretty early, but I think my comparison for Egor Demin watching this game is a better version of Lamar Odom. Slightly better passing and better defender with more of an opportunity at point forward. He’s played more assertive in the second half.

[HitsterParticipant]

Wizards would take Flagg in a heartbeat IMO. With him and Sarr they have their Front Court sorted. It would almost be like the Spurs passing on Wemby or Phoenix on Doncic ( Oh I forgot, we did do that!).

The likely lottery teams I couldn’t make a case for any passing on Flagg. Now if they got a mega offer from the team picking 2nd or 3rd then maybe but the likes of Ainge aren’t giving up a stupid load of assets.

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

What if you’re the Wizards at 1st pick… would you take say picks 2, 15 and 29 from the Jazz if that were the case? It would be like trading Flagg for Harper/McNeeley/Budinga or something like that… Not a bad haul either way imo. Or would that be as stupid as trading away Luka? Idk, seems like if any draft this is the one where you can get away with it. If the Wizards keep their core guys right now atm, there’s a need at guard and a clear logjam at the wing and forward spots. Otherwise, they’d have to find trade partners.

[HitsterParticipant]

Outside of Wemby I’d say Cooper looks the most hyped prospect since Ben Simmons. Ainge drives a hard bargain and the T-Wolves pick would have to be outside of the lottery for him to consider it.

The Wizards I’d say only Poole, Sarr and Coulibaly are definite keeps. Kuzma will only have two years on his deal next summer and would have trade value on a reasonable contract. They have Carrington to possibly get more minutes in the backcourt too whilst I don’t see a huge logjam at 4 or 5. Bagley and Baldwin are on expiring deals, Holmes will only have one year left next season.

Wizards were 15-67 last season and are 2-15 so far this season so they take BPA as there is no positional clash with Sarr.

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

Interesting takes, don’t disagree with Cooper Flagg statement, although he’s better than Simmons…
I wouldn’t say Poole is a keeper… If I’m the Wizards I’d probably pick Flagg too, but I don’t think it would be a Luka trade bad… it could even be a close trade imo.
The future core for the Wizards to me under contract or likely contract looks like:
Bub Carrington/Jordan Poole/Bilal Coulibaly/Kyshawn George/Corey Kispert/Kyle Kuzma/Saddiq Bey/Sarr/Valanciunas
Of them the guys with value are Carrington/Coulibaly/George/Kuzma/Sarr and maybe Val if on a winner.

[HitsterParticipant]

Big Val would have trade value for a contender looking for a solid rotational front courter as he is on a flat $10 million per year for 3 years which is cap friendly in my view.

There have been so many hyped prospects in the post LBJ era its hard to remember who was “cannot miss”. I feel Wemby is the most hyped since LBJ and then maybe Greg Oden.

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

Wemby for sure, Greg Oden was up there but I’d say no more than Ben Simmons was. I was a weird one for both drafts… I knew Oden would be picked first, but I liked Durant better. Same thing with Ingram during Simmons’ year. Certain years though – you just know the whole year like the LeBron and Wemby years. Cooper Flagg’s pretty hyped, I do believe in it – but it’s the end of November and way too early to know for sure. He’s not LeBron or Wemby obvious. But I’d say he’s up there. He’s a can’t miss prospect, but not guaranteed to be the best in the class at the same time. I believe he will be – but don’t know for sure.

[HitsterParticipant]

The 2008 draft could have had any of Rose, Beasley or Mayo go first and you then had Westbrook at 4 that year. 2009 was a great draft but the better players came after the top couple of picks. I’d put AD in amongst the most hyped guys on further reflection he was a big with guard like skills and had a Cooper like defensive game.

Wiggins, Parker and Embiid in 2014 was avery highly touted trio, Embiid when fit has become a MVP and a devastating scorer. Jabari Parker’s ACL injuries ruined his career and Wiggins whilst not being a superstar has won a title, been an All Star and is a key player on a still strong GSW team.

Simmons had the size to be a point forward and was one of the earlier “unicorns” but his injuries and shooting or lack of have sidelined him largely but I felt he was a prospect on par with pretty much all bar Wemby and Oden.

KD I did put before Oden on my draft during 06/07 college season for a bit but then went back to Oden first. KD if he’d been any other year apart from 2007 would likely have gone first and I’d have him in that group just behind Greg as the best NCAA prospect of the post LBJ era put with Wemby still the best prospect since LBJ.

Thinking of LBJ, KD, Westbrook, Harden, Curry, Davis and co. I was thinking if we froze history now who would be considered the best current NBa players historically.

My list would be
1. LBJ
Joint second KD/Steph
4, Jokic
5. Harden

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

I think mine would be for current players:

LeBron 2012/2013

Stephen Curry 2015/2016
Nikola Jokic 2022/2023
Kawi Leaonard 2018/2019

Kevin Durant 2012/2013

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

VJ Edgecombe’s one of the toughest prospects to evaluate imo. He’s got good athletic ability including quick make up speed and agility with mad hops. When I see his shooting form I still cringe. If he can shoot better and turn the ball over less he’d be incredible. Maybe he’ll adapt well though.

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

Still a harder prospect to stack up against others… At what point does upside outweigh production, and then the other way around…?

[HitsterParticipant]

A lot of players are drafted on upside much more than production IMO. Stephon Castle was very much a work in progress with his shooting but was playing a supporting role on UConn last year and the rest of his game has huge potential. I’ve not seen that much of Baylor this season but they have several guys in double figures scoring so is VJ playing a more supporting role or has the team been set up around him?

[HitsterParticipant]

VJ Edgecombe; is giving me Stephon Castle type vibes with his shooting so far this season. Stephon looked like a great prospect last season but we had question marks about his shooting which the Spurs now seem to be sorting. VJ is an elite athlete and has great defensive potential as well as being a very good ball handler.

His draft position could depend on whether a team wants more a true scorer or a better all round player as VJ falls into the 2nd category at the moment in my view. Still a solid top 10 pick but not currently in the top 5 or even top 3 mix which he has the potential to be.

Stephon went 4th last year so with a stronger draft next year I’d be happy to peg VJ at between 6 to 8 currently.

Baylor play UConn next week so we’ll get a pretty good line on his form there.

[NorrinRaddParticipant]

The thing about Stephen Castle is he did everything in college but shoot. Shooting is the swing skill for sure. But Castle’s handle is actually much more advanced last year than Edgecombe’s at least so far. Imo Edgecombe’s skills haven’t quite caught up with his tools. Edgecombe will fill up stats decently, but a lot of it comes off of him being a superior athlete. Most is that make up speed he has or that extra airtime he gets, etc. to complete his plays. I think he’ll figure it out, he’ s only a freshman… but so far his form is weird. Not sure Castle will ever be a good shooter, but maybe someday he’ll have a respectable shot. He lacks confidence in shooting the rock though. The one thing Edgecombe has going for him is he seems to be still confident in shooting at least. Imo Edgecombe’s not bad because of his athleticism, but he’s really a year or 2 away from really utilizing his talent.

[HitsterParticipant]

Castle brings a lot to the table with his all round game and will develop his play making alongside CP3. Edgecombe’s athleticism will take him so far but I agree he needs to refine his game but any prospect is a work in progress.

[Author]

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