[inasilentway68Participant]

Below are my picks for the best players by position in NBA history (thus far). Many of the top picks are obvious choices (Jordan, Magic, Bird, etc.), but I have also included several active players that may spark debate (Manu Ginobili, Carmelo Anthony, etc.). This list is certainly not offered as irrefutable fact, but rather as my humble opinion. Selection was based on a combination of variables including statistical dominance, playoff success, focal point of team leadership, and of course, my own bias. Please respond with criticism.

Point Guard:
1) Magic Johnson
2) Oscar Robertson
3) Isiah Thomas
4) John Stockton
5) Bob Cousy
6) Gary Payton
7) Jason Kidd
8) Steve Nash
9) Walt Frazier
10) Tiny Archibald

Shooting Guard:
1) Michael Jordan
2) Kobe Bryant
3) Jerry West
4) George Gervin
5) Dwayne Wade
6) Clyde Drexler
7) Reggie Miller
8) Allen Iverson
9) Earl Monroe
10) Manu Ginobili

Small Forward:
1) Larry Bird
2) Lebron James
3) John Havlicek
4) Julius Erving
5) Elgin Baylor
6) Scottie Pippen
7) Dominique Wilkens
8) Rick Barry
9) James Worthy
10) Carmelo Anthony

Point Forward:
1) Tim Duncan
2) Karl Malone
3) Bob Pettit
4) Charles Barkley
5) Dirk Nowitzki
6) Kevin Garnett
7) Elvin Hayes
8) Kevin McHale
9) Dolph Schayes
10) Dave DuBusschere

Center:
1) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2) Bill Russell
3) Wilt Chamberlain
4) Hakeem Olajuwon
5) Shaquille O’Neal
6) Moses Malone
7) David Robinson
8) Patrick Ewing
9) George Mikan
10) Artis Gilmore

[inasilentway68Participant]

And of course, when I mean Point Forward, I actually mean Power Forward…

[GrandmamaParticipant]

Ginobili top 10 SG all-time? True he was highly underrated his whole career, but he isn’t a top 10 SG of all-time.

[inasilentway68Participant]

Ginobili is probably the hardest sell of the list. Here’s my case for him. He’s won at every professional level of basketball: NBA, Euroleague, World Championships, Olympics. The man is a winner. It’s true that he is not a guaranteed knock-down shooter, but think of everything else he does on the court to win. Intangibles, hustle, and southpaw skill. Hands down, one of the craftiest players ever to lace up. Any maybe even one of the most exciting. For instance, observe this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QiR0t7rw7g

[thunderforthewinParticipant]

nash top 8?

while i dont disagree with who you put above him, the guy did win two mvps in a row. thats got to be worthy of top 5 at least dont you think?

wheres dennis rodman 6 foot 7 averaging 18 boards
alex English?
Mutumbo maybe for spot ten because he was a beast on D
or Dave Cowens perhaps

[joecheck88Participant]

nowitzki over garnett? no.
I think J Kidd is better than Gary Payton but Payton was great.
I dont know about ginobili, but I can’t thimk of someone else at this time so I wont argue.

Other than that, I like the list. It gives credit to some of our young players today and I liked that.

[kanebangerParticipant]

payton was better than j.kidd they grew up together and he was always better. Payton called jason ason cuz he had no J(jumper) glove was the best defender not as good of a passer as kidd tho

[NESTO1977Participant]

Point Guard:
1) Magic Johnson
2) John Stockton
3) Isiah Thomas
4) Jason Kidd
5) Bob Cousy
6) Gary Payton
7) Walt Frazier
8) Steve Nash
9) Lenny Wilkens
10) Tiny Archibald

Shooting Guard:
1) Michael Jordan
2) Oscar Roberston
3) Kobe Bryant
4) Jerry West
5) Allen Iverson
6) Dwayne Wade
7) George Gervin
8) Reggie Miller
9) Earl Monroe
10) Joe Dumars

Small Forward:
1) Larry Bird
2) Julius Erving
3) Scottie Pippen
4) Elgin Baylor
5) John Havlicek
6) James Worthy
7) Rick Barry
8) Dominique Wilkens
9) Bernard King
10) Paul Pierce

Power Forward:
1) Tim Duncan
2) Karl Malone
3) Kevin Mchale
4) Charles Barkley
5) Bob Pettit
6) Elvin Hayes
7) Kevin Garnett
8) Dirk Nowitzki
9) Dennis Rodman
10) Chris Webber

Center:
1) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2) Shaquille O’Neal
3) Wilt Chamberlain
4) Bill Russell
5) Hakeem Olajuwon
6) Moses Malone
7) David Robinson
8) Patrick Ewing
9) Wes Unseld
10) Artis Gilmore

[kanebangerParticipant]

pistol pete as Pg

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Nowitzki over Garnett is just sacreligious, as is Nash over Clyde Frazier in my opinion. Also, as greatv of a player as Hakeem Olajuwon was, I still do not understand how Shaq did not surpass him in his career. Yes, their was the infamous finals, where Hakeem had an amazing finals against the Shaq led Magic, but go back and look at the numbers. Shaq was not exactly a slouch in the series. The fact is, that Shaq used pure physical and athletic dominance to rule the NBA for years. I also think Rick Barry is far too low on your SF list. I think to do a list such as this, you should maybe put more thought and analysis, because this list requires a lot of criteria beyond bias, which kind of appears to be very much present. But again, it is your opinion, but I just think it seems like the list is rushed and not really thought out to the full extent it should be when comparing these postional players.

[The Scare Crow ReturnsParticipant]

In a different list…Guys like Mikan??? Wouldn’t be able to hang with Shaq and Hakeem…so just have two seperate list….every one that played in the Ice Age in one list…and every one that played post Dr.J afro in another…

It’s not likely anyone’s seen Mikan and Dave Dubusser play…I can’t even spell that without getting a reference…This is clearly a case of …Old Farts that played in a water downed league(No Blacks and Hispanics) should never be mention with “New jacks” that may lack the IQ of Cousey but would have run him into the ground….One on One Chris Paul vs. Bob Cousey and Cousey looks like a BUM…I know that Cousey is a legend of the sport and help make the way for Paul an Co…But you can’t compare them by putting them in a ” All Time List” together….Make it 2 separate list’s….Old School vs New School….

That way Mikan and others would never be listed with Shaq and Co…It just makes it better to keep them apart…because the only way the young people will respect the “Old guys” is if the old guys never get sized up side by side…Any one with eyes and a brain can see most guys back then lack any real game and were more so products of system…and not All Time Great Basket Ball Players….Rank their game not their Legacy…we know about the History of the NBA…

Un-athletic White Guys running around and dominating until they let blacks into the League and put an end to it…Mikan and Schayes would be bench warmers in todays game….Wilt,Kareem and Oscar are rare breeds because they were clearly all time players no matter what era they played in….can anyone say that George Mikan would get 10 and 10 today with the type of athletes and style of play being incorporated in the game….No…I respect the past…but when I see list like this …I question the intentions…Is it to make new guys or old guys look bad or less like great players….I wonder

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

I see your overall point but I don’t think you know what you’re talking about when you mention Dave Debusschere as one of the “Old Farts that played in a water downed league(No Blacks and Hispanics) should never be mention with “New jacks””

Debusschere played in the 60s and 70s (was an all-star right until 1973) and believe me there were plenty of black players dominating the league at the time. He was considered one of the toughest and best defensive players of his era in addition to averaging over 16 PPG for his career. As for him not being athletic, he also pitched in the major leagues. If you’re going to disagree with his inclusion on this list then you’re also going to have to argue against Russell, Chamberlain, Baylor and Oscar Robertson.

As far as the original list goes it really is absurd to have Ginobli on there. Pete Maravich, Joe Dumars, Ray Allen, Tracy McGrady all should be there over him. And frankly I would put Sidney Moncrief, Vince Carter and Mitch Richmond over him as well.

[Toronto16Participant]

@inasilentway68 Dirk Nowitzki is not better all time than Garnett.

Lebron Jame should not be second if he hasn’t won a title yet.

How the heck is Wade over Iverson????

Charles Barkley is the 3rd best PF of all time, even McHale has said so.

[Toronto16Participant]

@NESTO1977 I like your list much much better, but as I said Barkley is the 3rd best PF of all time.

[inasilentway68Participant]

My selection of Nowitzki over Garnett certainly calls for criticism. Garnett’s overall game is superior when considering his excellence on both offense and defense, while Nowitzki’s game has always revolved around his offense despite being a quality defensive rebounder as well. Thus far, Garnett has a ring and Nowitzki has none.

But consider this: does Garnett’s one championship ring really discount all of the years of futility of on the sub-par Minnesota Timberwolves? Garnett-led T-Wolves teams lost in the first round 7 consecutive years. While as “The Man” on the T-Wolves, Garnett won 26, 25, 33, 32 games in four of his seasons with them. As the leader of the Mavs, Nowitzki has won 53, 57, 60, 52, 58, 60, 67, 51, 50, 55 games from season-to-season since ’00-01 season. Isn’t the fact that Nowitzki consistently wins a sign of his overall positive effect?

Without question, Nowitzki has enjoyed a better supporting cast (Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Nick Van Exel, Devin Harris, Josh Howard, Jason Kidd, Antwawn Jamison, Caron Butler) and owner (Mark Cuban) than Garnett ever enjoyed at Minnesota (Stephon Marbury, Sam Cassell, Latrell Sprewell, Wally Szczerbiak; Glen Taylor). However, isn’t a sign of a player’s worth also defined by his ability to make his teammates better? Were Nash, Finley, Howard really can’t-miss players when drafted? I can’t help but think that Nowitzki’s game allows for other players to flourish. This is not to say that Garnett doesn’t have this effect as well, just look at his past 3 years with the Celtics for evidence. However, that team effect/success never occured for Garnett has consistently as it has for Nowitzki.

Currently, Garnett has scored 22,267 points in 1124 games. Nowitzki has scored 21,111 in 920 games. Unless it does not occur, I think it is a safe bet to assume that Nowitzki is going to score more points than Garnett by the time they both retire. But how many points will they score by that time? For Garnett, perhaps 24,000-25,000 points at best? For Nowitzki, perhaps 28,000-30,000 at best? Lets say hypothetically, Nowitzki achieves the summit of having scored 30,000+ in his career, joining the ranks of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Karl Malone, Michael Jordan, and Julius Erving (ABA/NBA combined).

Even with Garnett’s superior defense and ring (assuming that Nowitzki still hasn’t won one by the end of his career), if Nowitzki scores potentially 5,000-6,000 more points than Garnett in his career, and has won more consistently in the regular-season, are not those potent variables to consider when choosing Nowitzki over Garnett?

Certainly debatable, especially the hypothetical considerations. My two cents.

[The Scare Crow ReturnsParticipant]

My Wife and Children are White and I would always pick Bird in the Nintendo Classic Jordan Vs. Bird…

Also my favorite players in the League Today are Steve”The Nash” Nash,Dirk Diggler,David” Double Trouble” Lee, ‘Skinny Mike Miller,Andrew ” A dingo hate my baby” Bogut and
Kirk” yeah my names Kirk” Hinrich (Go Figure I’m a Hinrich guy) also A Big Manu guy now…used to hate those wild ass layups…Honorable mention to Luis Scola(Tough SOB) and Jason”white chocalate” Williams…

[Raptor_BallParticipant]

Point Guard:
1) Magic Johnson
2) John Stockton
3) Isiah Thomas
4) Gary Payton
5) Bob Cousy
6) Jason Kidd
7) Walt Frazier
8) Oscar Robertson
9) Pete Maravich
10) Steve Nash

Shooting Guard:
1) Michael Jordan
2) Kobe Braynt
3) Jerry West
4) Reggie Miller
5) Allen Iverson
6) Earl Monroe
7) George Gervin
8) Dwyane Wade
9) Joe Dumars
10) Clyde Drexlar

Small Forward:
1) Larry Bird
2) Scottie Pippen
3) Julius Erving
4) Elgin Baylor
5) Rick Barry
6) James Worthy
7) John Havlicek
8) Dominique Wilkens
9) LeBron James
10) Alex English

Power Forward:
1) Tim Duncan
2) Karl Malone
3) Kevin Garnett
4) Charles Barkley
5) Kevin McHale
6) Elvin Hayes
7) Bob Petitt
8) Dirk Nowitzki
9) Dennis Rodman
10) Chris Webber

Center:
1) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2) Shaquille O’Neal
3) Bill Russell
4) Wilt Chamberlain
5) Hakeem Olajuwon
6) Moses Malone
7) David Robinson
8) Patrick Ewing
9) Bill Walton
10) George Mikan

[The Scare Crow ReturnsParticipant]

and why is on a list with Wilt,Shaq and Kareem….end the debate and make 2 different list ….period

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

I think Raptorsball list is the most accurate IMO.

[inasilentway68Participant]

When looking at the list several hours after inventing it, I think I would bump Walt Frazier over Nash as well, so I concede that.

I knew that my selection of Hakeem the Dream over Diesel would spawn some comment. However, even with Shaq’s four titles to Hakeem’s two, there is no way I can justify Shaq’s upgrade over Hakeem, mainly because of the 1995 Finals. Both were the centerpieces of their franchises at the time, and both were in their prime. A sweep is a sweep.

[The Scare Crow ReturnsParticipant]

That’s a stupid pick IMO….Reggie was the best 3 point shooter in the League…Not All Time…That’s Ray Allen and AI was pound for pound the greatest offensive force in the History of the League….If he was 6’4 he would have been illegal….Teams would have protested at the first sign of that Killer Cross over and elite athleticism…AI is arguably over all SG’s not named MJ and Kobe for all the obvious reasons…I’ll end it with that/…

[inasilentway68Participant]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gilmoar01.html

Please explain why Artis Gilmore hasn’t been named to Hall of Fame? Seriously, there must be a story.

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

I didn’t say it was completly accurate but it’s close.

I would put Payton #2 PG all time

D-Wade is not a top 10 SG all time.

Kevin Garnett is not top3 PF all time

Shaq cannot go over Hakeem

All of this is IMO

[knicksfreakParticipant]

McGrady not in the conversation?

knicksboy – Shaq should definitely go over Hakeem. Shaq was the most dominating center of all time. I alos think Garnett makes top 3 PFs.

[deshawynkeys91Participant]

i understand that # player apart in the way ppl view a players career but MORE important than # is the able for a player to lead his team and strike fear into the opposition…. every ball fan knows that DEFENSE wins championships and K.G being one of the best Defensive bigs in the game alone puts him infront of (d)IRK…. let us not forget dirk and HIS mavericks blowing a 2 game lead against the Heat a few yrs ago….

p.s i would place mchale ahead of dirk as well

[Tha King2121Participant]

NO MARC JACKSON, the most AST of all time.
Come on no one said his name, dang

[deshawynkeys91Participant]

i understand that # player apart in the way ppl view a players career but MORE important than # is the able for a player to lead his team and strike fear into the opposition…. every ball fan knows that DEFENSE wins championships and K.G being one of the best Defensive bigs in the game alone puts him infront of (d)IRK…. let us not forget dirk and HIS mavericks blowing a 2 game lead against the Heat a few yrs ago….

p.s i would place mchale ahead of dirk as well

keys of life…. Dont let Fantasy Ball dominant Reality!

[Cusemen727Participant]

Ive always felt garnett was overrated, top 10 for sure, but top 3, nooo wayyy.

[dolla130Participant]

how the hell are they above iverson and why is manu on here and there is no ray allen
George Gervin
Dwayne Wade
Clyde Drexler
Reggie Miller
IMO shaq was better then both
Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

I suppose this would be my top 10 list at every position only including guys I’ve seen play live. For example Abdul Jabbar seems pretty low on this list but because I didn’t start watching until the mid 80s I missed his prime, ditto for Dr J and Moses Malone.

PG
1. Magic Johnson
2. Isaiah Thomas
3. John Stockton
4. Gary Payton
5. Jason Kidd
6. Steve Nash
7. Chris Paul
8. Kevin Johnson
9. Chauncey Billups
10. Tim Hardaway

SG
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Clyde Drexler
5. Allen Iverson
6. Reggie Miller
7. Joe Dumars
8. Tracy McGrady
9. Ray Allen
10. Vince Carter

SF
1. Larry Bird
2. Lebron James
3. Scottie Pippin
4. Dominique Wilkins
5. James Worthy
6. Paul Pierce
7. Alex English
8. Julius Erving
9. Carmelo Anthony
10. Adrian Dantley

PF
1. Tim Duncan
2. Karl Malone
3. Kevin Garnett
4. Charles Barkley
5. Dirk Nowitzki
6. Kevin McHale
7. Chris Webber
8. Dennis Rodman
9. Pau Gasol
10. Shawn Kemp

C
1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Shaquille O’Neal
3. David Robinson
4. Patrick Ewing
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
6. Moses Malone
7. Alonzo Mourning
8. Dwight Howard
9. Brad Daugherty
10. Dikembe Mutombo

some hard cuts from this list included Fat Lever, Mitch Richmond, Chris Mullin, Bernard King, Grant Hill, Chris Bosh, Tom Chambers, Robert Parish and Yao Ming.

[StF616Participant]

Mine
Point Guard:
1) Magic Johnson
2) Oscar Robertson
3) Isiah Thomas
4) John Stockton
5) Jason Kidd
6) Steve Nash
7) Gary Payton
8) Bob Cousy
9) Nate Archibald
10) Kevin Johnson

Shooting Guard:
1) Michael Jordan
2) Kobe Bryant
3) Jerry West
4) George Gervin
5) Allen Iverson
6) Clyde Drexler
7) Reggie Miller
8) Dwayne Wade
9) Pete Maravich
10) Earl Monroe

Small Forward:
1) Larry Bird
2) John Havlicek
3) Julius Erving
4) Elgin Baylor
5) Scottie Pippen
6) LeBron James
7) Dominique Wilkins
8) Rick Barry
9) James Worthy
10) Alex English

Power Forward:
1) Tim Duncan
2) Karl Malone
3) Bob Pettit
4) Charles Barkley
5) Dirk Nowitzki
6) Kevin Garnett
7) Elvin Hayes
8) Kevin McHale
9) Dolph Schayes
10) Dennis Rodman

Center:
1) Wilt Chamberlain
2)Kareem Abdul-Jabber
3) Bill Russell
4) Hakeem Olajuwon
5) Shaquille O’Neal
6) Moses Malone
7) David Robinson
8) Patrick Ewing
9) Willis Reed
10) Bob Lanier

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

You did never mention in your earlier list that you took into account the hypothetical. In that case, your list could go in numerous other directions. I think making a list that includes active players and the hypothetical would be incredibly difficult, which is why I tend to make a list based on current accomplishment and leave hypothetical listing to a whole other category. But with your hypothetical taken into account, do you think LeBron James will never surpass Larry Bird (truly possible, even for a player as great as James)? Where is Dwight Howard? No Chris Paul? I think you see where I am coming from. To say that Dirk Nowitzki potentially scoring more points than Kevin Garnett makes him a better player, I would disagree. It is not just that KG is a better defender, by a monumental amount, but he is far superior to Dirk in numerous other aspects, such as rebounding and passing. Now, with your argument about winning in accordance to KG, all of the players you named were established as solid players before Dirk was even on the team other than Josh Howard. Not to mention, during Kevin Garnett’s time, he did not have a single player near that ability other than Stephon Marbury and possibly Latrell Sprewell, who both have their obvious issues. Add to the fact that the ownership and personnel are nothing compared to the Mavericks who have built and spent money to surround Dirk with great players, and you have much greater success than Garnett has in Minnesota. However, I think the biggest thing here is that KG has got his ring, and he has had 2 years where he has grinded it out through the play-offs, as opposed to Nowitzki’s usual post-season let downs. Who missed the free throws that would have potentially put Dallas up 3-0 in the NBA finals? Not to mention his two embarassing first round exits after that time (2007 and 2010). Garnett may have less post-season experience than Dirk, may even have much fewer wins, but he has won when he is supposed to win, and gotten even further than when he was predicted to a number of times. Add to the fact that he revolutionized a position far more than Dirk (I think people long ago stopped looking for other Nowitzki’sv and started hoping for Kevin Garnett’s, who can mix it up and grab the occasional offensive rebound), than I do not know what hypothetically other than Dirk still not having peaked as an NBA player will put him ahead of KG. That is just my opinion.

[inasilentway68Participant]

Fair criticism that I myself have already explained is debatable. But I’m glad you have decided to continuously post to this message board. Of course, any list created will always be based from a combination of factual data and qualitative analysis. How the future remaining years of KG and Dirk will play out is of course unknown, but I just can’t forsee Dirk’s high-level of play to suddenly drop off – he plays far too effecient of a game. While many people critique Dirk’s first-round exits in 2007 and 2010 (2004 and 2008 as well), it is ludicrious to lay those at the doorsteps of Dirk exclusively. Only in 2007 did he really play a poor stretch of games, and that was against an uber-athletic, small-ball lineup led by his former coach. 2007 was an upset indeed. But you don’t think that disappointment is balanced out by KG’s seven straight first-round exits? And even in KG’s 2008 championship-winning season, he wasn’t exactly dominating the field (Boston being pushed to seven games in the first two rounds for example).

While KG’s career has been cemented into the Hall of Fame by his statistically dominant years on the Timberwolves, you can’t completely ignore how much his game has dropped off the last two years nor ignore the remaining years of his future. There is a cloud of uncertainty resting over Boston/KG right now, and not one on top of Dirk. If I’m wrong after 4 years, I’ll write and say my predictions were way off, but I’m going to stand by my controversial pick and say when its all over for the two forwards, I think we really will have to consider Dirk as having the better career, championship or not.

Since others have already done so, what would your list look like?

[llperez]

as far as the initial list from the thread starter, not bad but a few changes i would make:

sg-iverson should be ahead of miller and wade.

sf-alex english over worthy and carmelo

pf-KG over Dirk

c-shaq just ahead of olajuwon

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Sorry it took me a while. This is my list of top 10 players at each position, and the only hypothetical I go on is how well they would have played by Era. Other than that I go by accomplishment as a player, and I think winning definitely serves as a huge marker, as I find that these players have had the top careers, which is why I do not include players that have played under 10 years (or the equivalent of their career).

PG
1) Magic Johnson
2) Oscar Robertson
3) Isiah Thomas
4) Bob Cousy
5)Walt Frazier
6) John Stockton
7) Tiny Archibald
8) Gary Payton
9) Jason Kidd
10) Steve Nash

SG
1) Michael Jordan
2) Kobe Bryant
3) Jerry West
4) George Gervin
5) Allen Iverson
6) David Thompson
7) Clyde Drexler
8) Earl Monroe
9) Pete Maravich
10) Sam Jones

SF
1) Larry Bird
2) Elgin Baylor
3) Julius Erving
4) Rick Barry
5) John Havilcek
6) Scottie Pippen
7) Paul Pierce
8) Dominique Wilkins
9) Bernard King
10) Tom Heinsohn

PF
1) Tim Duncan
2) Karl Malone
3) Bob Petit
4) Kevin Garnett
5) Elvin Hayes
6) Charles Barkley
7) James Worthy
8) Bob McAdoo
9) Kevin McHale
10) Dolph Schayes

C
1) Shaquille O’Neal
2) Bill Russell
3) Wilt Chamberlain
4) Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5) Hakeem Olajuwon
6) Moses Malone
7) George Mikan
8) David Robinson
9) Willis Reed
10) Bill Walton

So, that is my list according to my rankings. If I were to put LeBron James on the list, he would be in front of Dominique right now (which is what I base this off of, as everyone playing now still has more to prove). I eventually see him being 1, or maybe 2 if he does not win multiple championships. Dwyane Wade I would rank probably near 8-9, but he still has more to prove as well. I do eventually see him being around Jerry West to George Gervin territory. I still keep Dirk out of the top 100 due to his lack of big moments as far as the play-offs are concerned, but he certainly is in consideration.

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

Thanks for bringing this one back up Mike! I was looking for it. Here’s my list

PG
1. Magic Johnson
2. Gary Payton
3. Isiah Thomas
4. Steve Nash
5. John Stockon
6. Jason Kidd
7. Bob Cousy
8. Walt Fraizer
9. Kevin Johnson
10. Chris Paul

SG.
1. Micheal Jordan
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Clyde Drexler
5. Jerry West
6. Gail Goodrich
7. Earl Monroe
8. Bill Sharman
9. David Thompson
10. Ray Allen

SF
1. Larry Bird
2. Julius Erving
3. Rick Barry
4. Elgin Baylor
5. Dominique Wilkins
6. John Havelchek
7. Scottie Pippen
8. Chris Mullin
9. Lebron James
10. Paul Pierce

PF
1. Karl Malone
2. Tim Duncan
3. Charles Barkley
4. Kevin Garnett
5. Bob Petit
6. Elvin Hayes
7. Kevin McHale
8. Tom Chambers
9. Bob McAdoo
10. Shawn Kemp

C
1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Moses Malone
5. Shaqullie O’ Neal
6. David Robertson
7. Robert Parrish
8. Bill Walton
9. George Mikan
10. Dwight Howard

I would love opinions.

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

Respect your opinion but I have to say some real head scratchers from a few of your selections.

1. No Bill Russell in your top 10 centers! I mean you have Bill Sharman and George Mikan listed so obviously you weren’t penalizing players who played in the early days of the league. And you have Bill Walton and Dwight Howard listed so you’re obviously not too concerned with scoring…so how does Russell get left off?

2. Tom Chambers and Shawn Kemp over Dirk Nowitzki at PF? Kemp and Chambers will probably never make the HOF. Nowitzki is a shoe in for the hall. His 9 all-star games and 4 All-NBA first team mentions are far greater accomplishments than what Chambers and Kemp pulled off and he has an MVP award to boot. He has better career numbers and the only blemish on his resume is his lack of a championship which neither Chambers or Kemp have either.

For the record I would probably place Deve Debusshere, Dolph Schayes, Jerry Lucas and George McGinnis above Chambers and Kemp too.

3. No George Gervin or Allen Iverson in your top SG list. Arguably 2 of the 10 greatest scorers in NBA history and neither of them make it and Goodrich who averaged 18.6 ppg in his career with 5 all star games and 1 all-nba first team mention gets to be #6…

4. Lebron James could retire tonight and he should still be ahead of Chris Mullin. More all-star games, 2 MVPs, a far better passer, far better rebounder, far better defender and a more unstoppable scorer to boot.

5. I love Steve Nash one of my favourite players. But over John Stockton? You can’t be serious. Stockton was the greatest passer of all time was a very good defender (while Nash is sub par) and was even more efficient than Nash from the field (although Nash is very efficient). Nash is the better free throw and three point shooter and that’s about it. You might as well put Mark Price in your top ten if you place that much emphasis on those traits.

[rtbtParticipant]

I’m looking only at your SG selections

SG.
1. Micheal Jordan
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Clyde Drexler – He was fun to watch but he wasn’t a top 10 player
5. Jerry West – Much better than Clyde Drexler
6. Gail Goodrich – You can’t be serious, he isn’t even in the top 40
7. Earl Monroe
8. Bill Sharman
9. David Thompson – He was great in college, but nothing much in the pros.
10. Ray Allen – I never thought of him as top ten but it’s an interesting selection. Hmmm maybe.

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

I should switch Drexler and West that is true. It’s close IMO because back in the 70’s, most starters played 40 min a game. That plus the fact Drexler had alot of talent around him.

I will edit that.

Goodrich was good. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/goodrga01.html

Factor those number into that fact he played with West, Baylor and Wilt his whole career. Also, if I ranked all of those players from 1-50, he would probably be in the late 40’s

David Thompson could have been great. He had great numbers when he played. I could ABA as well. He got hurt and it messed up his career.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompda01.html

[llperez]

top 5’s

pg
1-magic johnson
2-gary payton
3-john stockton
4-isiah thomas
5-steve nash

sg
1-michael jordan
2-kobe bryant
3-oscar robertson
4-jerry west
5-allen iverson

sf
1-larry bird
2-lerbon james
3-julius erving
4-rick barry
5-elgin baylor

pf
1-tim duncan
2-karl malone
3-bob petit
4-charles barkley
5-kevin garnett

c
1-kareem abdul jabbar
2-shaquille oneal
3-bill russell
4-hakeem olajuwon
5-wilt chamberlain

[Im Your FatherParticipant]

I just don’t see how Olajuwon can be ranked higher than Shaq. Compare their careers and their stats, Shaq has more championships and more points per game and rebounds per game. Olajuwon was a more skilled player, but there was a window of time when Shaq simply could not be stopped.

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

I just don’t see how Olajuwon can be ranked higher than Shaq. Compare their careers and their stats, Shaq has more championships and more points per game and rebounds per game. Olajuwon was a more skilled player, but there was a window of time when Shaq simply could not be stopped.
—————————————————————————————————————————————-

Comparing their stats it actually pretty easy to see why you can go either way with Shaq or Hakeem. A matter of fact Hakeem has more rebounds per game.

This is a great time to compare the two actually. After both have had 18 seasons in the league.

Hakeem averaged 21.8 PPG, 11.1 RPG, 3.1 BPG and 1.75 SPG. Shaq has averaged 24.1 PPG, 11.0 RPG, 2.3 BPG and 0.6 SPG.

While Shaq was the slightly better offensive player (even though Hakeem was more skilled as you yourself write) Hakeem was the better defensive player. They were about even as far as rebounding goes. Shaq was one of the highest percentage scorers of all time with a career FG% of 58.1 compared to Hakeem’s 51.2 but Hakeem was the far better free throw shooter with an average of 71.2 to Shaqs 52.7.

Shaq has 4 rings to Hakeem’s 2 but Shaq played his prime in an era with very little competition at center while Hakeem thrived in the greatest era of centers ever (Ewing, Robinson, a young Shaq and Mourning, Mutombo, Daugherty, not to mention he consistantly outplayed Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Moses Malone when they were past their prime but still all-stars).

Now I’m not saying that Hakeem was without a doubt better but most objective people could certainly see why Hakeem would be ranked higher in some people’s opinions. It’s certainly close enough that it isn’t obvious one way or another.

[Im Your FatherParticipant]

My point wasn’t that their stats were incredibly different, I’m sorry if it came across that way. What I was saying was that In every measurable way, Shaq had the greater career than the dream. I just don’t think you can rank Olajuwon higher than O’Neal simply because of what he hypothetically would have done 5 years later.

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

I don’t Shaq too much credit because of this.

Without another top guard next to him? Shaq could not win anything. I could argue the fact that Shaq never won a rebounding title and needed a Kobe, Penny and Wade to reach the Championship could push him down in my eyes. People forget, The Lakers were favorites ( In Vegas) to win the come out the west in 1997,1998,1999 and most of that was because of Shaq. It wasn’t until Kobe emerged that Shaq won a Championship. He shouldn’t have been a 3 time Finals MVP either. Kobe deserved the last one vs New Jersey

Hakeem is higher because not only did he win with subpar teammates, he KILLED Shaq one on one in the 94 Finals. Hakeem had Clyde Drexler ( after his hops left), Robert Horry, Mario Elie, Sam Cassell, Kenny Smith. I know I’m missing someone but they couldn’t have been that good.

Had you switched Hakeem and Shaq? Hakeem would have won 2 titles with Penny Hardaway and could have won a ring in LA with the LA 1997 and 1998 Roster IMO.

Here’s 97’s roster and click 98 to see it the next year.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1997.html

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

Here’s Houston’s Roster in 1994- Don’t Tell ME Shaq would have won with that roster.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/1994.html

[llperez]

who’s to say prime shaq wouldnt have won with that roster at that time? Houston was built well with great perimiter shooting and great defense. Phoenix, seattle and new york were all tough teams capable of beating them, but olajuwon was the best guy on the court and they grinded out some real tough 7 game series’s on their way to a title. I put shaq slightly ahead of olajuwon based on the fact shaq dominated the league like no big man i have seen for a 2-3 year stretch with the lakers. Subtract those 2-3 prime years from shaq and i think it might lean towards hakeem. BUt shaq’s 2-3 best seasons were more dominant then olajuwons 2-3 best seasons.

[HaleParticipant]

Knicksboy, no Iverson???

[Michael.S.Participant]

top 5

dont beat me up if i miss a player or 2

PG’s
Magic
Robertson
Maravich
Kidd
Nash
Stockton

SG’s
Jordan
Kobe
West
Gervin
Wade

SF’s
Bird
LeBron
Erving
Baylor
McGrady

PF’s
Duncan
Malone
KG
Barkley
McHale

C
Chamberlain
Shaq
Russell
Hakeem
Robinson

best combo guard- Iverson

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

I forgot about Iverson to be honest. He should be up there.’

LL, That’s crazy. I understand you’re a LA fan and probably like Shaq but he would have NEVER won a Title with Houston’s 1994 or 1995 roster.

His 1997 roster was better then Hakeem’s 1995 roster. Hakeem would have gave up his left nut to have Elden Campbell inside the post with him. Nick Van Exel, Cedric Ceballos and Eddie Jones.

Come on Son. You cannot be serious. Shaq NEEDED Kobe to win his 1st title. Without the emergance of Bryant, Shaq would be a big with 3 less titles to his name.

Like I said, Shaq needed a top tier guard next to him to win a Title. Hakeem needed role players and he got 2 rings for them. Shaq is a all time great but he couldn’t touch Hakeem in my eyes.

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

I made mistakes. I should do another one. Too be fair, I just did a off the top of the head thing with making my list.

I sorry, I sorry lol. I’ll make a new one, I’ll put thought into it next time lol

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

I do agree with you on all but number 5.

Stockon had great numbers but also played with a top 5 PF all time. I took some imaginary points off on my list ( Which I will redo!)

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

haha, it’s all good. I was just throwing my own thoughts in there.

[llperez]

knicksboy, you say hakeem would have given up his left nut to play with elden campbell down low? DO you know who otis thorpe even was? He played in at least one allstar game and was one of the best banger defensive minded bigs in the game for a number of years. Otis>elden and thats not even a debate.

cedric ceballos played about 15 games with shaq so you cant possibly count him as one of shaqs teammates. The lakers were talented, but 1997 was not shaq in his prime. Shaq first few years under phil jackson was defenitely his best ball. He moved around and played light on his feet and motiveated and put up numbers in the finals that were unbelieveable un der phil from about 99-2001.

That houston squad was not hands down the best in 1994, but they sure wernt some scrubs. Kenny smith, vernon maxwell and robert horry were good for double digits a game and i already brought otis thorpe. Add in solid role players like carl herrera, matt bullard, and sam cassell who was very solid that year as a rookie and to say hakkem had a scrub team would be silly.

there is more to winning then just individual talent. The lakers had great individual talent in 1997 but they were not on the same page and were not good defensively.

And im not a shaq fan, never have been. I honestly dont like the guy at all. I was always on team kobe whne they were together.

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

But you said Shaq would have won a title with that 94 Houston roster. There is no way because he never won anything without a star close to his level near him. To be honest, you could make the case Shaq never got better game wise, only smarter and knew how to take advantage of his size in the post. He relied on pure talent.

Hakeem won not only the West with that roster but a Title. I understand Shaq was dominant but it hurts him ( in my eyes) that he needed Penny, Wade and Kobe ( All Great Guards at the time) to win a Championship.

I’m keeping Hakeem over Shaq because of the simple fact is he dragged that 1994 and 1995 team to the title. I cannot say the same for Shaq in any years he won a Championship.

[llperez]

you can put hakeem over shaq if you want. I wasnt calling you out for that becasue i do think it is close. BUt to say a prime shaq would not win with that 1994 houston team is just not necessarily true. They were a great TEAM. Im not trying to pull the age card on you, but I watched that team. They were more then just the sum of their parts. They had no real weakness becasue they had guys who could each play their role and played defesne and hit 3’s about as well as any team during the 90’s and all they needed was a great center to put it all together. You dont think prime shaq could have got them over barkley and the suns or ewing and the knicks?

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

You are correct, I have not seen the 94 Rockets truly play. I seen the finals games and will agree they played more like a team.

I question if Shaq would have won a title with a team built like the 94-95 Rockets because of what I seen with the 2000-2001 Lakers. Shaq was the center of the offense but Kobe was someone who had to step up when they couldn’t throw it into Shaq in the post. I don’t know who on Houston at that time who could pick up for Shaq when they couldn’t throw it in. Also, count into the fact Shaq had some foul trouble? How could that team even contend without Shaq on the court?

I would say they wouldn’t win a title over a team like Pheonix, Seattle or Utah at that time to be honest. Hakeem was a rare breed. He had the monster footwork to embarrass a defender. Shaq had the power but not the craft of scoring different ways.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Shaq may have played with great players, but he really had very few great teams. He never had a great PG or amazing perimeter shooting. Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott were good players on the 94-95 team, but honestly, those guys were pretty much the product of playing with Shaq and Penny. They did very little after they had no big fella. Plus, that Houston team was great defensively, and their guard play was stellar. Mad Max, Kenny Smith and Sam Cassell were all solid, and Horry/Otis were rad at the time. Shaq may have relied on pure talent and size, but honestly, what more should he have used. Hakeem had amazing post moves, and was a fantastic footwork for a player his size, but that is what he had, and Shaq had his brute strength and athleticism. I just think Shaq was a better player for a longer amount of time, and he was super dominant also for a longer amount of time. If you are talking about player skill, than Hakeem may indeed be better, but my list was not about that, I am guessing most of the lists aren’t, because it leaves out career accomplishment to a large extent.

[big3Participant]

PG

Magic

Pistol Pete

Rose

Nash

Stockton

SG

Jordan

Wade

Kobe

West

Robertson

SF
 

LBJ

Bird

Pippen

Erving

Wilkins

PF

K Malone

Petitt

Hayes

Nowitzki

Webber

C
 

Chaimberlain

Russell

Abdul-Jabbar

Mikan

D Howard

 

 

 

[Author]

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