[DoubleNickelsDurr55Participant]

Has the dominance of dirk nowitzki help the stock of the euro bigs in this years draft? IMO I have never heard so much about euro bigs until this years draft. I watched dontas poor shooting at the euro camp and he looks several years away from being able to contribute in the NBA. Vessly apparently is a tough euro post player, two words no one usually uses in the same sentence. Tough euro? Honestly haven’t seen the other guy not will I try to spell his name. But I guess I am not a believer in any of them. With that being said has dirk helped these guys stock? How far away are they from contributing in the NBA? IMO this is a weak draft I would sell picks now in preparation fir next year.

[DoubleNickelsDurr55Participant]

I ment to say jona is suppose to be a tough euro. But vessly and donta are the shooters. My other thought was are they high because the draft is weak.

[DoubleNickelsDurr55Participant]

I ment to say jona is suppose to be a tough euro. But vessly and donta are the shooters. My other thought was are they high because the draft is weak.

[vulture711Participant]

 Actually, if Nikola Vucevic played for a Euro Club team rather than USC, he’d be a Top 5 pick.  All these guys put up modest production numbers in 15 minutes a game in so so league’s and they are the next Dirk.  The best Euro players have been in the backcourt – the NBA is starved for height so if you’re tall, and not too un-coordinated, you are golden.

[vulture711Participant]

 Actually, if Nikola Vucevic played for a Euro Club team rather than USC, he’d be a Top 5 pick.  All these guys put up modest production numbers in 15 minutes a game in so so league’s and they are the next Dirk.  The best Euro players have been in the backcourt – the NBA is starved for height so if you’re tall, and not too un-coordinated, you are golden.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

European players have been huge prospects for years! I do think Dirk Nowitzki definitely might have added to some guys pocket books a few years after he was drafted, but I think these guys are just genuinely talented prospects who were on everyones radar for the last few years. Vesely and Motiejunas both seemed like possible lottery picks last year, and they just both decided to wait. But, Kanter, Valanciunas and Biyombo, in a draft very weak on Centers, have length and size you can not teach. Throw in Vucevic, another player from Europe, and they are the top post prospects in the draft this year. I really think Dirk Nowitzki has very little to do with where we view current European players. They player who probably most compares to Nowitzki that has gotten lottery talk is Motiejunas, and he is slipping to as low as late first round. Mirotic and Bertans may be big guys that can shoot, but if a team drafts them thinking of Nowitzki, they are dreaming.

You do not think Manu Ginobili is tough? Yes, European players are usually seen as not being tough or not playing defense, but that is a really poor stereotype. Really, there have been a lot of important European players on championship teams as of late. Call Pau Gasol soft all that you want, but the Lakers more than likely do not win two championships without the guy. He was dominated in the play-offs, BY ANOTHER EUROPEAN PLAYER WHO PEOPLE CALL SOFT. Dirk I think finally got rid of the "soft" tag, and unfortunately Pau picked his back-up again. But, nonetheless, they might be the two best PF’s in the NBA. Also, they are probably the two best players from there draft class.

2001: Pau Gasol competition is Joe Johnson, Zach Randolph and Tony Parker. Do you take any of those players overall careers over Pau Gasol? Parker is the only one you could argue, but even so I believe Pau is considered a better player than any of those guys at this current juncture. Yes, even better than Zach Randolph, whom he never had a chance to play in the play-offs. All I know is that if Pau were playing against his younger brother and Z-Bo, it might have lit a fire under his butt that was extinguished during the Dallas series.

1998: Dirk is the best player in his class bar none. You could argue Paul Pierce, possibly, but I do not really know what you would base it on. Dirk lead his team further, to more wins, with a higher scoring average and I think has achieved more than PP. Plus, no question who you would rather have as a player at this current juncture.

I think it is ridiculous to categorize European players as always being the same type of player. European players have contributed to teams in so many different facets, and while I think there was a time where people might have been searching for the next Dirk Nowitzki, I think they have come to the realization that he is as incredibly rare as the next Michael Jordan or next Shaquille O’Neal. He is not in the class of either of those two, but he certainly has a game unique enough where it will be incredibly difficult to find a doppelganger. The Europeans mentioned this year will probably end up being some of the better prospects in what is considered a relatively weak draft, and regardless of whether Dirk had won the title this year, I do not believe the case would be any different.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

European players have been huge prospects for years! I do think Dirk Nowitzki definitely might have added to some guys pocket books a few years after he was drafted, but I think these guys are just genuinely talented prospects who were on everyones radar for the last few years. Vesely and Motiejunas both seemed like possible lottery picks last year, and they just both decided to wait. But, Kanter, Valanciunas and Biyombo, in a draft very weak on Centers, have length and size you can not teach. Throw in Vucevic, another player from Europe, and they are the top post prospects in the draft this year. I really think Dirk Nowitzki has very little to do with where we view current European players. They player who probably most compares to Nowitzki that has gotten lottery talk is Motiejunas, and he is slipping to as low as late first round. Mirotic and Bertans may be big guys that can shoot, but if a team drafts them thinking of Nowitzki, they are dreaming.

You do not think Manu Ginobili is tough? Yes, European players are usually seen as not being tough or not playing defense, but that is a really poor stereotype. Really, there have been a lot of important European players on championship teams as of late. Call Pau Gasol soft all that you want, but the Lakers more than likely do not win two championships without the guy. He was dominated in the play-offs, BY ANOTHER EUROPEAN PLAYER WHO PEOPLE CALL SOFT. Dirk I think finally got rid of the "soft" tag, and unfortunately Pau picked his back-up again. But, nonetheless, they might be the two best PF’s in the NBA. Also, they are probably the two best players from there draft class.

2001: Pau Gasol competition is Joe Johnson, Zach Randolph and Tony Parker. Do you take any of those players overall careers over Pau Gasol? Parker is the only one you could argue, but even so I believe Pau is considered a better player than any of those guys at this current juncture. Yes, even better than Zach Randolph, whom he never had a chance to play in the play-offs. All I know is that if Pau were playing against his younger brother and Z-Bo, it might have lit a fire under his butt that was extinguished during the Dallas series.

1998: Dirk is the best player in his class bar none. You could argue Paul Pierce, possibly, but I do not really know what you would base it on. Dirk lead his team further, to more wins, with a higher scoring average and I think has achieved more than PP. Plus, no question who you would rather have as a player at this current juncture.

I think it is ridiculous to categorize European players as always being the same type of player. European players have contributed to teams in so many different facets, and while I think there was a time where people might have been searching for the next Dirk Nowitzki, I think they have come to the realization that he is as incredibly rare as the next Michael Jordan or next Shaquille O’Neal. He is not in the class of either of those two, but he certainly has a game unique enough where it will be incredibly difficult to find a doppelganger. The Europeans mentioned this year will probably end up being some of the better prospects in what is considered a relatively weak draft, and regardless of whether Dirk had won the title this year, I do not believe the case would be any different.

[JoeWolf1]

 No, the rise of Dirk from a prospect taken at #9 by Mad Scientist Don Nelson to a 20 pt scorer in two years helped increase the drafting of Europeans 10 years ago.  Lottery busts from Europe in the 2001-2005 really decreased many Europeans’ draft stock, but now with International basketball being heavily scouted and it’s more readily accessable the top Europeans’ are making a bit of a comeback in this draft.  It’s not a new thing, though.

[JoeWolf1]

 No, the rise of Dirk from a prospect taken at #9 by Mad Scientist Don Nelson to a 20 pt scorer in two years helped increase the drafting of Europeans 10 years ago.  Lottery busts from Europe in the 2001-2005 really decreased many Europeans’ draft stock, but now with International basketball being heavily scouted and it’s more readily accessable the top Europeans’ are making a bit of a comeback in this draft.  It’s not a new thing, though.

[DoubleNickelsDurr55Participant]

Very informative mikeyvthedon. So the answer you gave me was yes dirk has help create more opportunity for European players?! Cuz that’s my feeling on it aswell. So a combination of dirk, a weak draft made it so European players are being scouted more thus leading them to a fat NBA pay check.
But as you mentioned it is tough to categorize European players as being the same but when you look at the numbers dirk, Paul and even Tony Parker are the exception. We have seen more Forgein players turn into busts then turn to dominate figures in the NBA. But that alone creates an entirely new topic. Unfortunately that’s the way it will be for at least several more years.

[DoubleNickelsDurr55Participant]

Very informative mikeyvthedon. So the answer you gave me was yes dirk has help create more opportunity for European players?! Cuz that’s my feeling on it aswell. So a combination of dirk, a weak draft made it so European players are being scouted more thus leading them to a fat NBA pay check.
But as you mentioned it is tough to categorize European players as being the same but when you look at the numbers dirk, Paul and even Tony Parker are the exception. We have seen more Forgein players turn into busts then turn to dominate figures in the NBA. But that alone creates an entirely new topic. Unfortunately that’s the way it will be for at least several more years.

[DoubleNickelsDurr55Participant]

Oh and Manu. Those guys are the exception

[DoubleNickelsDurr55Participant]

Oh and Manu. Those guys are the exception

[thparadoxParticipant]

 

Dirk is a big reason, but Gasol was equally important.

Darko and Tskitisvili weigh it down some.

There are other euro prospects who have shown real talent… AK47, Biedrins, Stojakovic, Batum, Beaubois, Parker, Gallinari, Gortat, marc Gasol

[thparadoxParticipant]

 

Dirk is a big reason, but Gasol was equally important.

Darko and Tskitisvili weigh it down some.

There are other euro prospects who have shown real talent… AK47, Biedrins, Stojakovic, Batum, Beaubois, Parker, Gallinari, Gortat, marc Gasol

[dodgerParticipant]

I do think the success of Euro guys dictates the trend. Every year, a player stands out and teams look for similar types. When Dwyane Wade took off , guys like Shannon Brown and Guillermo Diaz were thought to be more valuable. Dirk , Manu, the Gasols all had nice playoff runs, why not follow the formula

[dodgerParticipant]

I do think the success of Euro guys dictates the trend. Every year, a player stands out and teams look for similar types. When Dwyane Wade took off , guys like Shannon Brown and Guillermo Diaz were thought to be more valuable. Dirk , Manu, the Gasols all had nice playoff runs, why not follow the formula

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

I would say they make up a much smaller category of players, so it is easier to categorize them as busts and place it as "Euro players". At least much easier to say than "Todd Fuller is a bust for college players". There have been a few high profile and pretty bad European picks, particularly Skita for Denver and Darko for Detroit (Yaroslav Korolev at 12 by the Clippers was awful as well), but than you have the steals. Manu Ginobili (played in Europe) at pick #57, Tony Parker at #28, Dirk at #9 and even Turkoglu at #16 in 2000. Andrea Bargnani was drafted as a wing player, and being played at Center, but I do not think you call him a bust. I am pretty sure if Michael Jordan could do things over, he would have happily taken Pau Gasol over Kwame Brown. Plus, I would say the second round success rate of European players is pretty darn high for the most part.

Like High School players when they were still allowed to enter, they were easy to categorize. So, people started saying that you do not want to draft them, they could be busts, GM’s could lose their jobs. Well, if anything, most HS players were taken too low. There were the busts, but than there were players taken later that ended up being GREAT value picks ie. Monta Ellis, Rashard Lewis, Al Jefferson, Josh Smith, JR Smith, Al Harrington, Lou Williams, Kendrick Perkins, Jermaine O’Neal and the piece de resistance, Kobe Bryant. I say, every player has there own back story and reason for being drafted. Dirk may have lead to some guys going highly in the draft, but I do not think that is the case anymore. Draft’s are usually cyclical, and when they see a trend, they try to repeat it. But, this is far from new, and I think Dirk has very little to do with how highly the players from Europe are ranked in THIS years draft.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

I would say they make up a much smaller category of players, so it is easier to categorize them as busts and place it as "Euro players". At least much easier to say than "Todd Fuller is a bust for college players". There have been a few high profile and pretty bad European picks, particularly Skita for Denver and Darko for Detroit (Yaroslav Korolev at 12 by the Clippers was awful as well), but than you have the steals. Manu Ginobili (played in Europe) at pick #57, Tony Parker at #28, Dirk at #9 and even Turkoglu at #16 in 2000. Andrea Bargnani was drafted as a wing player, and being played at Center, but I do not think you call him a bust. I am pretty sure if Michael Jordan could do things over, he would have happily taken Pau Gasol over Kwame Brown. Plus, I would say the second round success rate of European players is pretty darn high for the most part.

Like High School players when they were still allowed to enter, they were easy to categorize. So, people started saying that you do not want to draft them, they could be busts, GM’s could lose their jobs. Well, if anything, most HS players were taken too low. There were the busts, but than there were players taken later that ended up being GREAT value picks ie. Monta Ellis, Rashard Lewis, Al Jefferson, Josh Smith, JR Smith, Al Harrington, Lou Williams, Kendrick Perkins, Jermaine O’Neal and the piece de resistance, Kobe Bryant. I say, every player has there own back story and reason for being drafted. Dirk may have lead to some guys going highly in the draft, but I do not think that is the case anymore. Draft’s are usually cyclical, and when they see a trend, they try to repeat it. But, this is far from new, and I think Dirk has very little to do with how highly the players from Europe are ranked in THIS years draft.

[jonus grumbyParticipant]

but there has been a lot of busts.  we tend to remember the success stories but for get the bad ones.

[jonus grumbyParticipant]

but there has been a lot of busts.  we tend to remember the success stories but for get the bad ones.

[DoubleNickelsDurr55Participant]

Agree to disagree mikeyv.solid posts though. Google European players in the NBA and that list is full of ultimate fails. Rafeal aroujo #9 to raptors. Jiri welsh, Boston nachjbar(sp) Wang zhi zhi even ji yianlian who is currently in the NBA. You are right grumby we remember the success stories more than the busts

[DoubleNickelsDurr55Participant]

Agree to disagree mikeyv.solid posts though. Google European players in the NBA and that list is full of ultimate fails. Rafeal aroujo #9 to raptors. Jiri welsh, Boston nachjbar(sp) Wang zhi zhi even ji yianlian who is currently in the NBA. You are right grumby we remember the success stories more than the busts

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Is not European. Google it. If you mean foreign players, say that. But, when you say European players, than mention two out of five in your last response, you just sound like you have no idea what you are talking about. I agree that Jiri Welsch and Bostjan Nachbar are European busts, but the other guys are Brazilian (who played college in the US) and the other two played in China.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Is not European. Google it. If you mean foreign players, say that. But, when you say European players, than mention two out of five in your last response, you just sound like you have no idea what you are talking about. I agree that Jiri Welsch and Bostjan Nachbar are European busts, but the other guys are Brazilian (who played college in the US) and the other two played in China.

[DoubleNickelsDurr55Participant]

Yeah when I googled it I got carried away. The original topicwas European. But the success stories compared to bust of European players is not even close. The few success stories have gms looking everywhere for the next great thing. Thus allowing average euros to take advantage. I’m just not sold on n e of them being the next dirk or pau for that matter.

[DoubleNickelsDurr55Participant]

Yeah when I googled it I got carried away. The original topicwas European. But the success stories compared to bust of European players is not even close. The few success stories have gms looking everywhere for the next great thing. Thus allowing average euros to take advantage. I’m just not sold on n e of them being the next dirk or pau for that matter.

[DoubleNickelsDurr55Participant]

So the correct wording would be international. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/wizards/2011-nba-draft-three-european-players-could-be-selected-in-top-10/2011/06/22/AGcfGXgH_story.html

[DoubleNickelsDurr55Participant]

So the correct wording would be international. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/wizards/2011-nba-draft-three-european-players-could-be-selected-in-top-10/2011/06/22/AGcfGXgH_story.html

[blink3ebfanParticipant]

 The success rate though for European players isnt that much different than that of college players is what I think MikeyV is trying to say. For every Dirk there is a Skita but for every DWade theres a Harold Minor. Since scouting foreign prospects has improved the liklihood of drafting a bust has been reduced. Its never an exact science though but thats what makes it fun. 

[blink3ebfanParticipant]

 The success rate though for European players isnt that much different than that of college players is what I think MikeyV is trying to say. For every Dirk there is a Skita but for every DWade theres a Harold Minor. Since scouting foreign prospects has improved the liklihood of drafting a bust has been reduced. Its never an exact science though but thats what makes it fun. 

[DoubleNickelsDurr55Participant]

If it’s a numbers game then yes it’s alot different. The number of American playersvs European players is far greater than Europeans. Which automatically gives the success rate to the americans. You can’t even compare that. All I was. Saying was IMO dirk and his success in the finals and NBA has helped the stock of the Europeans in this years draft. No longerare gms so hesitant about drafting Europeans.

[DoubleNickelsDurr55Participant]

If it’s a numbers game then yes it’s alot different. The number of American playersvs European players is far greater than Europeans. Which automatically gives the success rate to the americans. You can’t even compare that. All I was. Saying was IMO dirk and his success in the finals and NBA has helped the stock of the Europeans in this years draft. No longerare gms so hesitant about drafting Europeans.

[Author]

Posts