[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Guys, I realize that Scottie Pippen said something that many have had a difficult time handling. His claims that Michael Jordan was a better scorer than LeBron James, though LeBron may indeed may be the better basketball player are tough to swallow. Michael after all played a full career, lead six teams to a title as the unquestioned leader and dominated everyone individually along the way with his incredible intensity, defense and scoring displays. In fact, I believe Michael probably could have easily won 10 MVP awards (I gave him 9 on this list: http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/mvp-4).

However, one thing that I think needs to be shut down is that Michael Jordan would indeed get more foul calls and do even better against this competition. Players have not just devolved in basketball knowledge and while the rules have changed, defense is still just as tough if not tougher now as it was than. It is an incredibly physical game, and while rules have been put in place that may be considered "soft", it is not like basketball back than was a contact sport.

For one, defense was indeed different back than, but one common misconception I heard was that teams score more points now than they did than. Well, while scoring was down when Michael came back the second time, during his first three championships it was actually around 5 points per game higher by team average (team average for 2010-11:100.4, during Michael’s first threechampionships the average was no lower than 105.3). For a majority of Michael Jordan’s career, teams were scoring quite a bit more than they were now. Also, when the rule changes were finally instituted, after Michael retired his second time, scoring went down from 95.6 to 91.6. It could have been due to 1998-99 being a lockout season, teams shot a low percentage on the whole, but defense had to have played a part. So, if you really think defense was a lot more physical and difficult back than, you have very little on your side statistically.

The other thing I keep hearing is that with the current rules regarding contact, that Michael Jordan would have shot 20 FT’s per game. No doubt, MJ would have some games in that range, but odds are, not very often like most star players. Still, let’s also dispel another rumor: Teams on average took more foul shots back than they do now! Don’t believe me, here are the average FTA’s from every year since 1988-89 (excluding the lockout shortened season in 1998-99):

1988-89: 2363 (Average FTA’s per team for the season)

1989-90: 2338

1990-91: 2287

1991-92: 2188

1992-93: 2273

1993-94: 2389

1994-95: 2220

1995-96: 2164

1996-97: 2078

1997-98: 2155

1999-00: 2073

2000-01: 2039

2001-02: 1953

2002-03: 2004

2003-04: 1985

2004-05: 2137

2005-06: 2157

2006-07: 2138

2007-08: 2045

2008-09: 2029

2009-10: 2013

2010-11: 1998

 

So, since 2006-07, foul shots have actually decreaed. Plus, even than, they were less during Michael’s first three championships, and extremely comparable during his next three. Another example I would like to give is that Kobe Bryant, who is a player with a game incredibly comparable to his Airness, a player he emulated to a tee, has taken fewer FT’s than Michael Jordan in the play-off’s. You may say, "Well, of course, Michael won a bunch of championships and he played more games". Well, again, you would be wrong. Kobe has played 208 play-off games to Michael’s 179. Michael took 1766 FT attempts to Kobe’s 1522. It is true, Kobe played a very different role than Mike for his first few journeys into the play-offs, much less the Finals, but I just wanted to show that it is not exactly like the rules have helped Kobe catch-up with Mike by being bailed out by fouls.

Michael Jordan averaged 8.2 FTA per game for his career, which was below that of Dwyane Wade (9.1) and LeBron James (8.9) for there’s. But, truly, the difference is not out of this world. Kobe is sitting at a nice 7.6. This past year, Wade averaged 8.6 FTA’s per game, while LeBron was at 8.4. Presumably, like they did with MJ, these numbers will go down and probably over their career, probably be around the same. If you take away Michael’s two year Wizard’s comeback, he was at 8.7 per game for his career. The first time Michael retired, when he had played 20 more games than LeBron James has to this point, he averaged 9.3. He got to the line quite a bit, but honestly not much more than these guys do.

Did a foul have to constitute more back than? Well, the numbers show, probably not. The best players have always gotten a lot of foul calls, Charles Barkley and Karl Malone went there all of the time. But, to say that Michael would have gotten to the line more so than any other star player of today, I do not know how much you are really on too. Defense is played differently now, but players seem to be evolving as physical specimens, and I do not know how much worse basketball players really are. They are, in all likelihood, better or similar.

Michael Jordan was a tremendous basketball player, and is the greatest to have played until someone takes the title away from him. His individual accomplishment along with team success is not matched, probably in all of sports, and he was a level ahead of anyone he played against. He might have been so today, but the point I am making is, do not act like Michael played in some era where they were playing round football. If you are going to make these claims, at least have evidence to do so, and the numbers tell me that this is hard to believe. So, say fouls were tougher back than, and that people were not T’ed up or suspended for the things they are now, but do not act like the league has changed to a free throw contest as compared to yesteryear. Because, the numbers are not at all in your favor, even if your delusion overrides them.

[Scottoant93Participant]

When does your book come out? You always write long paragraphs when you make threads or answer them, you should consider being a writer, if your not already. I’d buy your book. Nice info by the way

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

Kobe did some things Jordan did (win 3 titles in a row) and had another 3 year run to the Finals.  The first run included a legit top 10 player ever in Shaq.  His second run had two titles and a Finals loss without a sure-fire Hall of Fame player (Pau Gasol is a good player.  an all-star, but not a Hall of Famer).  His scoring binge a few years ago where rivaled onl by MJ and Wilt.  He hung an 81 point game on the Raptors which is 12 more points than Jordan ever scored.  Kobe is probably a better long-range threat than MJ with passing and rebounding being about equal.  … I think if Kobe refocuses and gets back into a killer mindset then I think he can take the Lakers back to the Finals (quite possibly against the Heat next year).  If he can get to the Finals without Phil Jackson and without a sure-fire hall of famer then I think he can be compared to MJ.

Back to LeBron.  You can’t really compare LeBron to Jordan since they didn’t play in the same era.  But, at the same age and at the same point in their respective careers, LeBron compares very favorably to MJ.  Since we compared Kobe to MJ then how does LeBron compare to Kobe?  Well, I think LeBron has been the better player the past several years.  Clearly the better player this year.  The two years before that LeBron was named the MVP.  And, LeBron without much help at all went to the NBA Finals.  Kobe, without much help, missed the playoffs.  And LeBron is vastly superior to Kobe in passing, rebounding, and, currently, defense.  If a peaking LeBron dominates the NBA Finals next year against a declining Kobe then that would give LeBron another slight edge over Kobe.  If LeBron dominates Dirk this year and wins the title then that would also help LeBron’s case as "The Greatest Ever."  … you have to beat great players to win.  So consecutive championships against Dirk and Kobe would be special.  Apart from the Maverick’s Last Stand and next year’s aging Slowtime I don’t really see a whole lot of competition for the Heat.  I am pretty sure that the Heat would destroy the Thunder unless they added another great player.

Can we mark down the Heat for 4 straight championships? Against this year’s Mavs, next year’s Lakers, and two Thunder teams after that?  Perhaps.  If so, MJ might still be the "BEST" ever, but LeBron James might just be the "GREATEST" ever.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

I am an amateur writer, in that I am not paid to do so, but have possible aspirations. I love writing about basketball, and in general, this is my forum to do so. I have had a couple articles on the main page of NBADraft.net, but that is all. I am going to try and further pursue it, but have yet too really. Nonetheless, I love talking basketball, debating about it and I definitely like trying to compare players, though over era’s can be very difficult.

Memphis, of course Kobe and Michael are not the same. However, "Best" and "Greatest" are the same thing? I too believe the Heat could win multiple rings, but am not ready to crown them when they have yet to win ring one. Especially am not ready to call their next finals opponents, things change rapidly. Look at how different Dallas and Miami are from when they were in the championship 5 years ago. They have two of the same players, and changed rapidly in position in the league during the years in between than and now.

Plus, your theory of "having to beat great players to win" can be filed under the obvious category. Usually, you do not play against terrible players in the play-offs. LeBron would not be any better if he had beaten Kobe in the Finals than if he beats Dirk. Dirk beat Kobe. Dallas was a better team. Just like Kobe was no worse for beating Orlando or Boston instead of a Cleveland team with LeBron. In other words, I think what you have written makes little sense other than your point of it being too early too say LeBron James is a better All-Time player than Michael Jordan. Which again, is fairly obvious at this point in time. 

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

^

Kobe and MJ are about as close as you can get.  Kobe’s scoring binges a few years back are rivaled only by MJ among perimeter players.  They are both great scorers, good mid-range shooters who can hit the 3 and have a killer mentality and can closeout games.  MJ won 6 titles with another superstar along with a good third option.  Kobe won 3 titles with another superstar (Shaq) then won two more (with another Finals appearance) with two very good all-star caliber players in Pau Gasol and Odom.  Bynum was also a good player for the 2 recent titles.  So Kobe won 2 titles (and went to another Finals) WITHOUT another superstar which is something Jordan never did.  Nor did Jordan score 81 points in a game.  So you can compare Kobe to MJ since they are very close to being the same kind of player.  Great scorers who could take over games and hit clutch shots.  Great athletes who played great defense and were solid rebounders and passers.  

Now, if Kobe compares favorably to MJ then how does LeBron compare to Kobe?  Well, LeBron has had some good scoring games but no 60 or 80 point games.  But, with a subpar cast he took his team to the NBA Finals.  With a subpar cast Kobe missed the playoffs.  LeBron carried more mediocre teams on his back to 60 win seasons and semifinal and conference finals appearances.  This year he plays with another legit superstar for the first time in his career and makes the Finals after taking a whole year of getting the team together.  And, LeBron was better than Kobe this year.  LeBron was better than Kobe the previous two years and was named the MVP.  Over the past five years, LeBron has been the better player of the two with Kobe being the better player only once decisively.  If LeBron can remain the top player in the game and take the Heat to 4 or 5 championships then he will exceed Kobe.  Kobe was the best player on 2 of his title teams.  If the Heat win this year, then LeBron will more than likely be the best player on the Heat.  

Both LeBron and Kobe had some great scoring years, but LeBron is the superior passer and rebounder. 

The current discussion of who is the better player between Kobe and LeBron is similar to the argument between MJ and Magic?  In both cases the players really aren’t that similar (with Kobe being more like MJ and LeBron being more like Magic) so it really comes down to the number of championships.  MJ had 6 and Magic had 5 so MJ wins.  If LeBron gets more titles than Kobe (5) then LeBron is arguably the greatest player of this era.  If LeBron gets more titles than MJ (6) then he will be the greatest player of all-time.  

 

[apb540Participant]

I do not care what any numbers say, the defense that Jordan faced was much better than what LeBron is going against.  A large part of this is the hand check rule and another part is that today’s players just simply don’t give enough effort on defense.  Can’t get better without some effort.  

Ask anyone you know that does not watch the NBA and they will give one of 2 answers: 1) Lack of defensive intesity or 2) Players are overpaid and lazy.  This is not to take away from number 6; as much as I don’t like him, he is def going to be a top 10-13 player of all time (could of challenged for num. 1 if he didn’t team up.)

[apb540Participant]

"If LeBron gets more titles than MJ (6) then he will be the greatest player of all-time."

False.

[PlatypusParticipant]

Eddy Curry ate it

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

While I am in complete agreement about the second thing you posted, as it it is incredibly generalized and could easily not be true, your first post is slightly flawed in my eyes. I think people over time forget that they had similar attitudes and players as their are now in the NBA. The hand check rule did not really make players much better defenders, and I think that the defensive effort is similar. Their may be fewer marquee defenders, as their were quite a few back than, but their are still a lot of great defenders and teams that play awesome defense. It is hard to find a team the played defense as well as the Jordan Bulls did, but their were enough teams back than that played awful defense as well. Every era had players with strengths and weaknesses, but the players we tend to remember are the strong ones as representatives. Not every SG was playing Michael Jordan defense, just like not every SG plays defense like Kobe Bryant in the modern day.

Plus, back than the NBA was full of prima donna players who did not try, just as much if not more so than they are now. I do not want to name names, but I will if you keep provoking me (some played for the Nets in the early 90’s, and a few were on "Dream Team II" when they made @sses of themselves). Plus, if a person does not watch the NBA, they have many more reasons than those 2. If they like basketball and do not watch the NBA for reason #1, they are kidding themselves. You may have thought it was more intense, you can convince yourself as such, but it has really not changed as much as you think it has. Every era tends to think they knew more than the one before it, or that they did things one way, or that their players were better, etc., etc. Well, things evolve, and while players may have played more basketball than players do now, the other focuses into athletic training and conditioning have lead to faster and more athletic players. If you watched the Heat and Bulls series and say that those guys do not play defense as hard as back in the day, well, you will never believe what I am telling you anyway, but they did.

As far as LeBron "teaming up", that will probably leave him below Jordan and some other players in the forum of who has had the best NBA career. But, it does not take away how great an individual player LeBron James is, the only people that take that away are the people that dislike him for reasons far beyond basketball. The guy is a specimen we had never seen before, and is probably the closest thing to Michael since Michael, even though I think he will also have a hard time surpassing Kobe Bryant. It is hard for people to admit that someone they do not care for is a fantastic player, but the reason he has garnered so much credit from his peers as being one of the best is because they are a lot less partial and appreciate what they are seeing. LeBron may never be better than Jordan when it comes to legacy, but their could be a point in time where he is a better all-around player than Michael ever was. The question is whether that point is now, or a few years down the road. But, the fact that someone has to bring up career accomplishment to battle ones point about individual greatness at a point in time is just proof that people are afraid that it could possibly be true.

[llperez]

I think defense is better now. Numbers strongly indicate this as well. Better athletes and just an overall stronger emphasis on the game from highschool to college to the pros and world wide is put on defense then t used to be. The only real counterargument was more contact back then but a lot of that was due to the talent level being more about inside play and not on ballhandling and outside shooting so the game was played inside more thus more contact. Also there were rules that really hindered the defense back then as well such as no zones and if an offensive player had the ball in the post and a defender started to double team but then changed his mind and went back to his original man, that was a tech. You had to come all the way within arms reach once starting the double team before you go back to your man unless the offensive player got rid of the ball. This gave offensive playersore time to read defenses and make proper decisions.

[aamir543Participant]

Go and watch the first fifteen minutes of the 30 for 30 documentry Winning Time (The one about Reggie Miller), then go watch 5 minutes of a Warriors Knicks game and tell me what you see. And as far as I see, if these rules we see today were implemented into the bad boys pistons era, The stats Mikey posted would go up to  3000. The reason we see fewer free throws today with stingier rules is because of players like Andrea Bargnani and Steve Nash. In the late 80s, Kendrick Perkins would have been considered a boy scout on the Bad boys Pistons teams. But I do believe that MJs Point per game averages would rise by about 3-4 points, not anymore because he was already at 28-29 ppg.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Man, that is great how you take the Knicks team of olds defense and place it against the Knicks now. My point is, their were bad defenses back than too. There were shooters that were afraid of contact. The Bad Boys had a great defensive team, and were maybe allowed to get away with more than now, but it is really was not that much stingier. Michael might average what he did back than in his prime, but I believe his PPG after retirement one was already 32.5. So, he might and probably would still be Michael Jordan in his prime, but it is not like he would have been Wilt Chamberlain in his early career versus modern day competition. Michael finished his career with a 30.14 average, and I doubt he would have finished that much higher if higher at all if he played now. I would point out that their are many more three pointers taken now than in those days, but I think that players that get to the line are equally as aggressive now as they were than. 

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