[valentine]

 I wrote early in the summer about how skinny defenders are often overrated, because their lack of strength and physicality gets less notice than their steals stats and general athleticism.

But some skinny defenders are still great, and a lot of them aren’t even in the Wiggins mold of super-quick/exlosive athlete.

Great hands and tenacity can help a skinny defender stand out, even if they lack elite foot speed.

Some examples of great wing defenders who are skinny, not-very-explosive, but have GREAT hands:

Tayshaun Prince, Kawhi Leonard, Bruce Bowen

Any others in that mold? Before you say that Kawhi is an amazing athlete, check yourself. 

Believe it or not, RJ Hunter is looking like he just might be in the same basic mold as these other defenders, if not as good as somebody like Kawhi.

Hunter has very long arms, and the same high I.Q. as the rest of those guys. Like those guys, Hunter’s hand speed is very high, and his hands are very precise.

Hunter was looked at as a one dimensional, one-way player before the draft, but it’s now obvious that he wasn’t able to show his full defensive potential while carrying Georgia State on his back offensively.

Which other players/prospects fit this mold?

 

 

[T Rex]

 Kris Middleton fits the mold, and like most of the rest of these guys, was drafted way too low.

 

 

[T Rex]

 Kris Middleton fits the mold, and like most of the rest of these guys, was drafted way too low.

 

 

[BlueLacesParticipant]

In every one of your posts, you compare rookies that haven’t even played in a NBA game yet to all-star/HOF caliber players. I feel like you are throwing as many darts out there as possible with the hope that 6 months down the line, you can say I told you so! about some random dude that no one projected to be as good as he is. 

[BlueLacesParticipant]

In every one of your posts, you compare rookies that haven’t even played in a NBA game yet to all-star/HOF caliber players. I feel like you are throwing as many darts out there as possible with the hope that 6 months down the line, you can say I told you so! about some random dude that no one projected to be as good as he is. 

[T Rex]

 Anybody can wait until the games start to make "predictions".

Just like a weatherman can wait until it starts raining to predict bad weather.

 

 

[T Rex]

 Anybody can wait until the games start to make "predictions".

Just like a weatherman can wait until it starts raining to predict bad weather.

 

 

[T Rex]

 Most casual fans say you can’t learn anything from summer league and pre-season, but I think that’s a cop-out.

 

 

[T Rex]

 Most casual fans say you can’t learn anything from summer league and pre-season, but I think that’s a cop-out.

 

 

[BostonCs FanParticipant]

Avery Bradely fits the mold, with his superior athleticism/ skinny frame and it still hits me how he was snag of an all defensive team selection last season

[BostonCs FanParticipant]

Avery Bradely fits the mold, with his superior athleticism/ skinny frame and it still hits me how he was snag of an all defensive team selection last season

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

Nice try to make it seem like hunter will be a better defender than people think, but I still have my doubts he will ever be anything more than adequate on that end. Your examples of players don’t really back up your point. Kawhi Leonard is not really skinny or unexplosive and was drafted mostly for his defensive potential, unlike hunter. Bowen might not have had many highlight dunks, but he still had above average athleticism for the wing position, and prince, though never a great athlete, was able to excel defensively due to his incredible length. Hunter may turn out to be a better defender than people think he will, but I just don’t see the potential to be even close to on par with any of those guys defensively.

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

Nice try to make it seem like hunter will be a better defender than people think, but I still have my doubts he will ever be anything more than adequate on that end. Your examples of players don’t really back up your point. Kawhi Leonard is not really skinny or unexplosive and was drafted mostly for his defensive potential, unlike hunter. Bowen might not have had many highlight dunks, but he still had above average athleticism for the wing position, and prince, though never a great athlete, was able to excel defensively due to his incredible length. Hunter may turn out to be a better defender than people think he will, but I just don’t see the potential to be even close to on par with any of those guys defensively.

[T Rex]

 Hunter doesn’t need to turn into Bruce Bowen or Kawhi Leonard to be a super-steal at pick 28. Same with Kris Middleton.

The point of this exercise is to hopefully get better at spotting defensive talent in draft prospects in the absence of elite athleticism or strength. 

Work ethic, wingspan, i.q., agility, and instincts appear to be the key combination.

D’Angelo Russell has the wingspan, work ethic, and i.q. to overperform defensively against shooting guards, but as of right now I seriously doubt he has the defensive instincts.

Identifying good defensive instincts in college is a bit tricky, especially if the player is carrying their team offensively like Russell and Hunter both did.

Hunter’s footspeed defensively has also been much better than Russell has ever shown, and that’s another real eye  opener. Then I look at the agility times at the Combine, and Hunter timed pretty well.

Devin Booker apparently posted the quickest agility time at the Combine, so both he and Sam Dekker will be a couple guys I’ll be looking at to see if they overperform defensively.

 

 

 

[T Rex]

 Hunter doesn’t need to turn into Bruce Bowen or Kawhi Leonard to be a super-steal at pick 28. Same with Kris Middleton.

The point of this exercise is to hopefully get better at spotting defensive talent in draft prospects in the absence of elite athleticism or strength. 

Work ethic, wingspan, i.q., agility, and instincts appear to be the key combination.

D’Angelo Russell has the wingspan, work ethic, and i.q. to overperform defensively against shooting guards, but as of right now I seriously doubt he has the defensive instincts.

Identifying good defensive instincts in college is a bit tricky, especially if the player is carrying their team offensively like Russell and Hunter both did.

Hunter’s footspeed defensively has also been much better than Russell has ever shown, and that’s another real eye  opener. Then I look at the agility times at the Combine, and Hunter timed pretty well.

Devin Booker apparently posted the quickest agility time at the Combine, so both he and Sam Dekker will be a couple guys I’ll be looking at to see if they overperform defensively.

 

 

 

[Magic JordanParticipant]

 A factor that could help your argument would be testing hand speed type statistics.  I am not aware of anywhere those are readily available.  How exactly do you quantify good, strong and quick hands?  That appears to be the bottleneck to derive anything from other than the eye test.  To make a correlation or to determine if there is any correlation to skinny/long defenders I would think we would need that baseline of at least, what is an average hand strength or hand speed.  

[Magic JordanParticipant]

 A factor that could help your argument would be testing hand speed type statistics.  I am not aware of anywhere those are readily available.  How exactly do you quantify good, strong and quick hands?  That appears to be the bottleneck to derive anything from other than the eye test.  To make a correlation or to determine if there is any correlation to skinny/long defenders I would think we would need that baseline of at least, what is an average hand strength or hand speed.  

[oogellsParticipant]

Just because a player is not Andrew Wiggins doesn’t mean he is skinny and unexplosive. Read the first couple lines…then waited for the comparison to random celtic who isn’t even remotely compareable to him. Yes Leonard has great hands, but can also mirror anyone in the league laterally, can euro step like a gazelle, and has dunked on many a man. The point of this exercise seems like it was to show how crazy a homer you are. You are worse then Aran Smith with your compareables, Tayshaun and Bruce Bowen were fine….but its like you don’t even watch the league sometimes.

[oogellsParticipant]

Just because a player is not Andrew Wiggins doesn’t mean he is skinny and unexplosive. Read the first couple lines…then waited for the comparison to random celtic who isn’t even remotely compareable to him. Yes Leonard has great hands, but can also mirror anyone in the league laterally, can euro step like a gazelle, and has dunked on many a man. The point of this exercise seems like it was to show how crazy a homer you are. You are worse then Aran Smith with your compareables, Tayshaun and Bruce Bowen were fine….but its like you don’t even watch the league sometimes.

[Leonard WashingtonParticipant]

 I watched RJ Hunter live last year when GA State played GA Southern, and I was not impressed with him on either side of the ball.  If he can’t defend or score at a high level playing against lower level D1 schools (i.e. Steph Curry)  do you really think he can do it in the NBA?  IMO he should’ve been a mid 2nd round pick a best.  Maybe I’m wrong and he will turn into a Jamal Crawford type….but I seriously, seriously doubt it.

[Leonard WashingtonParticipant]

 I watched RJ Hunter live last year when GA State played GA Southern, and I was not impressed with him on either side of the ball.  If he can’t defend or score at a high level playing against lower level D1 schools (i.e. Steph Curry)  do you really think he can do it in the NBA?  IMO he should’ve been a mid 2nd round pick a best.  Maybe I’m wrong and he will turn into a Jamal Crawford type….but I seriously, seriously doubt it.

[T Rex]

 I’m not even calling RJ Hunter an amazing defender. I’m just saying he’s looking a lot better defensively than he was labeled, which was "poor defender". And there does appear to be a type that Hunter fits in with, guys whose defensive potential was slept on, who were skinny, high i.q., good agility, and relentless worker.

Kawhi is like the superstar version of that type, though his lack of elite explosiveness is what made him fall in the draft. He looks more explosive than he is because his hands are like cluster bombs.

Besides Middleton, Will Barton averaged 1.2 steals after being traded to Denver last year, and he scored 17 points last night. He seems to fit the mold.

 

 

 

 

[T Rex]

 I’m not even calling RJ Hunter an amazing defender. I’m just saying he’s looking a lot better defensively than he was labeled, which was "poor defender". And there does appear to be a type that Hunter fits in with, guys whose defensive potential was slept on, who were skinny, high i.q., good agility, and relentless worker.

Kawhi is like the superstar version of that type, though his lack of elite explosiveness is what made him fall in the draft. He looks more explosive than he is because his hands are like cluster bombs.

Besides Middleton, Will Barton averaged 1.2 steals after being traded to Denver last year, and he scored 17 points last night. He seems to fit the mold.

 

 

 

 

[TarHeelRavenParticipant]

 Some posts you can just tell were created by T Rex…

[T Rex]

 Pretty much every basketball publication you can name is predicting the Celtics win 47-49 games this year.

Maybe it’s time to re-examine your prejudices?

There’s tons of talent on this team, which happens when you have the best coach and GM in the game.

 

 

[T Rex]

 Pretty much every basketball publication you can name is predicting the Celtics win 47-49 games this year.

Maybe it’s time to re-examine your prejudices?

There’s tons of talent on this team, which happens when you have the best coach and GM in the game.

 

 

[TarHeelRavenParticipant]

 Some posts you can just tell were created by T Rex…

[CameronCrazy11Participant]

I’d really like to know if you would that way about R.J. Hunter if he was on any team other than the Celtics. This is coming from a supporter of R.J. Hunter too.

[CameronCrazy11Participant]

 *feel that way*

[CameronCrazy11Participant]

 *feel that way*

[T Rex]

 I’m only saying his defense is a lot better than reported. As a rookie I think he’ll be an average NBA defender, with limited upside to be only a little better than that.

But that’s a lot better than he was reported to be, and I’m curious if there’s ways to better identify one category of underrated defenders in the draft process.

Delon Wright and Jerian Grant are a couple non-Celtics who stand out as good possibilities to overachieve defensively compared to draft position.

 

 

[T Rex]

 I’m only saying his defense is a lot better than reported. As a rookie I think he’ll be an average NBA defender, with limited upside to be only a little better than that.

But that’s a lot better than he was reported to be, and I’m curious if there’s ways to better identify one category of underrated defenders in the draft process.

Delon Wright and Jerian Grant are a couple non-Celtics who stand out as good possibilities to overachieve defensively compared to draft position.

 

 

[CameronCrazy11Participant]

I’d really like to know if you would that way about R.J. Hunter if he was on any team other than the Celtics. This is coming from a supporter of R.J. Hunter too.

[ZouldiersParticipant]

 I think Shane Battier fits in this description. He’s not the most athletic dude out there but he defends well thanks to his high IQ. In Hunter’s case, he has active hands on defense but then again he only played one game and its against real madrid so I need to see more of that from him.

[ZouldiersParticipant]

 I think Shane Battier fits in this description. He’s not the most athletic dude out there but he defends well thanks to his high IQ. In Hunter’s case, he has active hands on defense but then again he only played one game and its against real madrid so I need to see more of that from him.

[Author]

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