[McDunkin]

 

Texas’ Rick Barnes and Villanova’s Jay Wright were high on this particular list. (Getty Images)

CBSSports.com’s college basketball quartet spent the July open recruiting period hobnobbing with nearly 100 coaches, brain-picking them on some of college basketball’s current issues. From the best players to their comrades in coaching; from the AAU programs to the agents’ involvement; from the rule changes to the NCAA as a whole. We had to promise them anonymity, and in exchange, they gave us honest answers. Over the next three weeks here on the blog, we’ll be putting out one question per weekday and giving you the array of results, straight from the coaches’ mouths.

This series started Monday with college coaches telling us they’d rather have Indiana’s Cody Zeller on their team than any other player, and who could be offended by that? Then Tuesday they told us they believe Temple’s Fran Dunphy is the sports most underrated coach, and who could be offended by that? But now we’ve arrived at the first question with which somebody will surely take offense.

The question is: Who is the most overrated coach in the country?

1. Roy Williams (North Carolina): 23 percent
2. Rick Barnes (Texas): 17 percent
3. Scott Drew (Baylor): 11 percent
4. Steve Lavin (St. John’s): 9 percent
5. Jay Wright (Villanova): 6 percent
6. Ben Howland (UCLA): 6 percent
7. Jim Boeheim (Syracuse): 4 percent
8. Tommy Amaker (Harvard): 4 percent

Also received votes: Too many to list.

Quotes that stuck:

On Roy Williams: "He’s won at Kansas and UNC. But who couldn’t do that … besides Matt Doherty?"

On Rick Barnes: "There’s just no bang for the buck, is there? All that talent, so much in there every year — and nothing to show for it."

 

On Scott Drew: "If Bill Self had his talent the past three years, they’re winning the national championship at least once."

On Jay Wright: "I’ll tell you this about Villanova and Jay Wright. In all our prep over the years, he’s the only coach we never prepared a scouting report for."

On Ben Howland: "Just watch what they do next year. They’re gonna win because they’ve got all that talent. But when has he won without it?"

On Tommy Amaker: "He had his shot against the big boys [at Michigan] and couldn’t get anything done. And now he’s a good coach? Because he won the Ivy League with way better players than everybody else? Come on."

Takeaway:

The first thing that must be made clear here is that the coaches we polled seemed to take the question of who is the nation’s most overrated coach strictly as the nation’s most overrated coach, as in a guy who draws up plays and stuff. Which is fine. But I’ve always rejected that premise in college basketball because, I’ve long believed, actual coaching ranks pretty far down the list of things that are important for a man to succeed in this sport. I’ll take the guy who is a great recruiter and great motivator — and who has the ability to hire a great staff — over the best Xs and Os guy every day. But whatever. I’m not here to argue that point as much as I’m here to make sense of the results of our poll, and the above comment about Roy Williams is probably the best hint as to why he received more votes than anybody else.

"He’s won at Kansas and UNC. But who couldn’t do that … besides Matt Doherty?"

In fairness, that’s a decent point.

You’d have to be pretty average (or straight-up bad) at your job to fail at Kansas or North Carolina, both of which are programs with loads of inherent advantages. So I guess what the coaches we polled were saying is that lots of men could go to seven Final Fours and win two national championships in a 24-year span if they were allowed to spend 24 years coaching Kansas or North Carolina, and, you know, that might actually be true. History suggests it’s not difficult to get great players at KU or UNC, and, in this sport more than almost any other, history suggests it’s not difficult to win when you get great players on your roster.

Which reminds of a conversation I had with Ol’ Roy a few years back.

We were sitting inside the Dean Smith Center, and I asked why, after all these years, he still works so hard in recruiting, because he does — and I think most would back me on this — still work really hard recruiting. Williams’ answer always stuck with me. Basically, he said he still recruits hard because he thinks of himself as a good coach but not as a great coach, and that he never wants to have to find out if he’s good enough to win with average players.

I love that answer.

Because I love the philosophy.

What Williams acknowledged is what I’ve long believed — that actual coaching is secondary to lots of things in this sport, and that the proper approach is to get the best players you can get and then do the best you can with them. Williams has made a career out of doing exactly that, and if that’s what makes him an overrated coach, so be it. My guess is that he’d rather be called an overrated coach than a losing one. Or a title-less one. Or an unemployed one.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/eye-on-college-basketball/19753693/critical-coaches-who-is-the-most-overrated-coach-in-the-country

 

[Malik-UniversalParticipant]

 i never thought rick barnes was that good of a coach to…. 

hes had some really good texas teams and never went any where in the tourney… aside from going to the elite 8 in 2008

[NJHooper95Participant]

I dont know about Jay Wright being overrated. I mean he really overachieve, especially with the his routine of playing small ball. Villanova has really not had any serious pro talent under Wright outside of Foye and Lowry. I think last year team was terrible, but outside of that he has done a good job with good college players.

[akhan786Participant]

I understand Roy has had as much talent as anyone in the country besides Cal and he’s not really good at adapting as a coach (see 2010 season)…but the guy has 2 national championships…

On the other hand Rick Barnes is the king of underachieving. He has some of the best talent in the country but I don’t remember the last time he got to the Final Four.

Rick Barnes has to be above Roy Williams on this list…

[SpacegrassParticipant]

I saw this list earlier today and was not surprised Roy was on the list but surprised he was number 1.  Recruiting is his bread and butter and Roy is not good at stepping outside of his system comfort zones.  If he gets guys that understand how to run his system he is guaranteed to be succesful even if they are not the greatest athletic talents.  Look no further than 2005-2006 and he ran a starting 5 of Wes Miller , Bobby Frasor , Reyshawn Terry , David Noel , and Tyler Hansbrough yet they were a 3 seed and went 12-4 in the ACC.  To me that is proof he is not an overrated coach.  The other thing is Roy needs a horse down low and more importantly a competent PG just look at the Drew II experiment and how bad that went.  Despite lacking raw talent physically a guy like Bobby Frasor made it happen in 2005-2006.  Imagine what Larry Drew II could be if he had a half decent basketball head on his shoulders?  I feel for UCLA because if Drew II is the PG it will be a long season in Westwood.

[surveParticipant]

 Drew is really a good player, but he has a sense of entitlement.  Roy only fueled it further by coddling him.  This is fortified by his parents involvement in his career.  Hopefully, for his sake and UCLA that he has matured.  He didnt bond with his UNC teammates and he lost a lot of his confidence and still expected to start despite how bad he was becoming and how poor of a leader he was.  He didnt have the respect of his teammates…and during  the summers, while most of the team stayed together….he was in Cali.  Dont think Drew cant play, he can, he just has a bad basketball attitude as a team player.

[UNCbasketballbumParticipant]

yeah, Roy has 7 final fours, 2 national championships, 2 coach of the year awards, he’s won the ACC 6 of his 9 seasons at Carolina.  I think he leads active coaches in winning percentage, and has had like 10 seasons of 30+ wins, and was inducted into the basketball hall of fame in 2007.  Of course I’m a UNC fan and of course I know people out there hate Carolina, just like people hate Duke, but to call Roy Williams overrated is absurd, ridiculous and stupid. 

[akhan786Participant]

I’ve been wondering about this but what is the public opinion on who wins a conference? I’ve always thought it was whoever won the tournament because that was the team that got the bid in the NCAA’s but just now recently I’ve been seeing Carolina fans saying regular season counts more. Which is it?

I actually remember back early in the Dean days Carolina fans said that the ACC tournament was the real indication of who was the champion because it was in a fair setting where unbalanced schedules wouldn’t favor one team. I guess their tune changed when a certain somebody down the road started winning 11 out of the last 14 ACC Tourneys…

IMO FSU won the ACC last year…

[ChewyParticipant]

Both Roy and Rick routinely out recruit these coaches. Sounds more like sour grapes than anything.

[UNCbasketballbumParticipant]

akahn, I’ve always thought the winner of the ACC regular season won the ACC.  You have a grueling 16 game schedule with 8 home games and 8 away games to determine a conference champion, not a weekend tournament played on a neutral court.  We all know how Roy feels about the ACC tournament, calling it the world’s biggest cocktail party.  This has a lot to do with Carolina routinely playing poorly in the tournament in my opinion.  In 10 years, Roy has only 2 ACC tournament wins, 2007 and 2008.  We all know Coach K puts a ton of stock in the ACC tournament, with Duke winning it like 10 out of 13 years or something like that.  This year I feel like FSU won the ACC, whipping Carolina at home and beating them in the ACC tournament. 

[surveParticipant]

 Sorry guys, I am UNC through and through, but Roy Williams is THE most overrated coach out there.  So I can say from the heart its not sour grapes.  He wins off pure talent alone.   He is just not a great in-game coach.  He is horrible at making adjustments.  He cant get the most out of his players.  The reason why he gets the credit he does is because the 2 National Titles masks what he really is.  A lot of serious UNC fans were calling for this guy’s head that year they didnt make the tourney.  Thats absolutely ridiculous considering he had about 9 HS All Americans on the team.  He isnt a good developer of NBA talent either.

Players fall into our lap, so he isnt a great recruiter.   What Dean started will go on forever.  The players that won it all the first time were Doherty’s players.  Any coach at UNC is going to get players.  There is no evidence that Roy is any better recruiter than anyone else. As far as Matt Doherty goes….he didnt get enough time and the parents started a coup to get him removed.   Doherty is a good coach, he just ran into a bad situation with the players while he was there.

The bottom line is, Roy is a great guy, perhaps too nice and too soft though.  He is not a disciplinarian.  He coddles players as well which resulted in the tumultuous seasons of Larry Drew II.  Roy only plays guys the way he is supposed to when he is forced to.  (See Kendall Marshall and Reggie Bullock)

He is an AVERAGE coach (and even thats pushing it seeing his decision making with rotation and strategy) who inherited great programs from Larry Brown and Dean Smith. (after brief tenures of Guthridge and Doherty)

 

[ThepessimestParticipant]

As a coach one thing I learned the hard way last year was that if you don’t have players you won’t win period. I coach at the high school level and my first 2 years I had solid seasons. Last year was a tough year talent wise and we struggled mightily. I beat myself up all year feeling like if I just put these kids in a better position to succeed we would win. Then a few seasoned coaches told me, "hey, you are doing the right things these kids just aren’t that good". Point being; as a coach to discredit another coach because he plays with talent to me is useless. Sometimes its harder to coach talent than it is marginal players because of ego and the inability for some coaches to stay out of the way (over-coaching).

With that said.. the list break down

Jay Wright – I disagree wholeheartedly with this. Name an elite player he has had at Villanova? Name a blue chip recruit? Sure he’s had good talent but not Tar Heel, Kentucky, type talent and yet they win a lot of games every year. To the coach that says that he does not have to prepare a scouting report for his teams; I think that was a tongue and cheek attempt to insult him. But the truth is you don’t win in the Big East with solid but no great players unless you can coach just a little bit.

Roy Williams – Coaching is understanding your talent. The PG who is now at UCLA (Drew) was the starter and yet Roy Williams was able to see that the teamed played better with Marshall running the show. That is coaching. Getting highly regarded recruits to play unselfishly? That is coaching! Watching players improve year to year? That is coaching. Also, winning 80% of your games is tough to do anywhere. Speaking of coaching talent, my next guy proves my point about Roy Williams….

Rick Barnes – I completely agree that while he is a great recruiter, he is not a great coach in terms of getting his players to play together or play winning basketball. Think about the talent he has had the last 5 years or so and they are bounced early on in the tournament every single year (they did get some calls to go against them vs. Arizona where they would have won the game). I watch his teams play and they look unorganized and selfish a lot of times. How do you have Kevin Durant and DJ Augustin and not have something to show for it? As a coach I respect the grind but I always ask myself why his teams don’t do more. So you can criticize Roy Williams (and Coach Calipari for some) about having all that talent but they win when they get it which IS a skill.

Scott Drew – Not enough information on him yet although his kids seem to flat-line a little. Many of his big recruits get the same "no motor" descriptions that make you wonder if the kids are coddled and spoiled a little.

Over-all it appears that coaches who get good players are being criticized more so than the coaches who have to play with lesser talented kids. Also, coaches who are beloved and get press appear to be on this list so this may be a case of professional jealousy.

Honestly, I think the Butler coach may be the coach I love to watch most. I love watching the sets he runs. I also feel Shaka Smart is brilliant. But maybe they are brilliant because they are at a smaller type school and gets to coach "THEIR" kind of kid? Their kids buy in and sell out to what they are selling which at the end of the day is what matters.

 

[surveParticipant]

  Wes Miller , Bobby Frasor , Reyshawn Terry , David Noel , and Tyler Hansbrough

doesnt sound that threatening on paper because of how their post-college careers turned out, but that was a good group of players.  those were not scrubs by any means.  They also had some good depth, albeit young.

Hansbrough was one of the greatest collegiates of all time and a fierce competitor.  

Wes Miller couldnt do anything but shoot, but man, from deep, he was one of the best shooters I had seen in college, he rarely missed if he was open…I mean he was money.

Frasor, not as bad a player as people think.  He was Mickey D, but had a very injury plagued career at UNC and on top of that, he had to relinquish his spot to Ty Lawson.  He had an NBA PG to compete with for minutes.

The last two guys are examples of how Roy is not a good talent developer…..

David Noel is an elite world class athlete who could be playing in the NFL right now if he wanted to.  This guy was a beast his last year at UNC, he put the team on his back at times.  He avg 12ppg on 53% shooting and shot 42% from deep.

Rayshawn Terry was a really raw player that couldve developed much better.  He was stuck behind championship talent at UNC, when he got his opportunities he just wasnt used properly.  He did manage to breakout as a junior avg over 14ppg.  Roy didnt know what to do with this guy…who is still a pretty good player overseas.  The guy had physical attributes, he was like 6’8" with long arms and a great athlete.  His all around game was coming around too.  Terry wouldve been a better player somewhere else.  Thinking of Terry makes me fear for how players like Tokoto will turn out.  

[SpacegrassParticipant]

Surve you like to manipulate the truth to fit your argument man.

Frasor-nice player at first that dealt with injuries but was like a second coach.  Being a McDonalds All American is an honor but it’s not like that it means he was one of the top 25-30 players in his HS class man plus he was a freshmen.

Miller-a 5’11 185lbs SG , that couldn’t do anything but shoot 3 balls.  Yet he was starting ad while tried hard on defense he was a total mismatch for other SG offensively every game.  Made the most out of his abilities for sure but lets not lie to ourselves. 

Hansbrough-yes he was a top 10 recruit but lets not forget all the sh!t talk we heard from Dook fans back then about how McRoberts(considered the #1 player in his HS class) was going to wreck Hansbrough.  Hansbrough was good but lets not talk about him like he was Kevin Durant , Michael Beasley , or even Derrick Rose good as a freshmen.

Noel-I love David Noel and he is one of my favorite UNC players of the last 10 years but lets be real.  He was a football player that walked on to the basketbal team.  He was a 6’6 225lbs combo forward that did not really get any bit comfortable on the perimeter until his SR season.  Great athlete but again lets not act like he was destined to be a great basketball player , Roy maxed out his potential even got him drafted in the 2nd round and nobody saw that coming at any point even during his SR season.

Terry-see my other response to you earlier.  Good raw talent but total dumbass and just not a sharp basketball player.  Only reason he was at UNC was because he was thelast Doherty recruit and in state kid that Roy was nice enough to honor his scholarship despite the regime change.

Bench-I can’t believe you made this part of your argument.  Byron Sanders(Sr) , Danny Green(frosh)good college player but was a ways away from becoming what he was as a upper classmen at UNC , Marcus Ginyard(frosh)good defender and glue guy but could not shoot a lick , and Quentin Thomas(the turnover machine).  I need to say nothing more!

[Bill Walton’s KneesParticipant]

 Pretty sure Hansbrough outplayed McRobers and dropped a Dean Dome and ACC Freshman record 42 points vs Georgia Tech….he actually had a better regular season then Rose did during their respective freshman years.  Rose didn’t really begin to turn things on until conference tourny/NCAA Tourny time

[SpacegrassParticipant]

It’s funny how a bunch of bystanders are trying to act like experts.  It was 40 and 10 and I was at that game.  For some reason Paul Hewitt let ReSean Dickey single cover Hansbrough the entire game despite him going off.  Tells you how sh!t a coach Hewitt is.  If you try and say you saw Hansbrough being as good as he was coming out of HS before college you are lying to yourself.  Like I said McRoberts was considered with gerald Green to be 1a. and 1b. in the 2005 HS class.  There was a reason that 2005-2006 team was unranked going into the season anhd picked to finsih I beleive 6th in the conference.  Roy has to get some credit for developing and seeing something in Hansbrough that nobody else saw and to me that is good coaching.  Again if you think that 2005-2006 team was really talented you are lying to yourself for the sake of the argument that you don’t think Roy is a good coach.  If you are doing that your opinion imo goes out the window and has no validity.  I am not arguing Roy being a great x and o coach but to act like he is overrated is a terrible take.  Also when it comes to Derrick Rose you can’t just look at stats to compare him to Hansbrough if you are you obviously can’t see whats in front of you.  Too many people who live by stats on here and nothing more , use your eyes and stop being a bunch of stat nerds.  BTW I am a UNC fan and like using stats but some of you go overboard with them.  I am along the same lines of thinking like RUDEBOY with some of you posters.

[surveParticipant]

 "Roy Williams – Coaching is understanding your talent. The PG who is now at UCLA (Drew) was the starter and yet Roy Williams was able to see that the teamed played better with Marshall running the show. That is coaching"

thats not coaching.  you must didnt see the games live.  UNC started every game bad and were always down in points until he put Marshall in.  then they would make a run and he would yank him out.  the only reason Marshall ever started was because Drew had Roy in the hot seat with the fans.  When he sat Drew, he actually played better, until he left.   Its not coaching when you finally have to submit that your team is losing due to bad PG play.  Marshall should have been starting long before he was.

Nothing against Dexter Strickland, but same thing applies.  He should be the backup PG, not the starting SG.  Only when he was injured and Roy was forced to make a move is when he inserted Bullock into the lineup.  After which, the team took off (reminisent of when Marshall supplanted Drew).

Bullock or McDonald shouldve been starting besides Barnes the whole time.  Giving your team only one perimeter threat in the lineup when you can easily have 2 wings who can be on opposite sides opens it up for the big men.

I dont think you watch UNC basketball.  The team lives off of offensive rebounds and run and gun, and has one of the worst half court offenses in college.

[ThepessimestParticipant]

Sometimes figuring out who should be playing isn’t as simple as you suggest it is. And if someone was calling for his head then that is sad in and of itself. Coach K has notoriously limited the effectiveness of big men in his programs to some people. But he wins! Point being there are deficiencies in all coaches.

Also, people confuse pushing tempo (run and gun as you call it) with not coaching. False. Teams that run and push tempo practice pushing tempo. Running and gunning (as you call it) is a way to create scoring opportunities and to force a team to play at a pace they cannot handle or they are not used to. There is a strategy behind it. Balls are not just rolled out there. John Wooden used to press and play fast because he knew every night he had more talent and better athletes and teams could not keep up. I also recall some past Kansas teams where Roy Williams played more deliberately which tells me he adjusts based upon his personnel.

And how many games did NC lose last year? 2 maybe 3? And the last game they lost due to having 2 of the starters injured with 1 not being able to play.

Also, North Carolina ran good sets and a nice secondary break. They incorporated 4 guys into a lineup that ended up drafted all in the first round.

Could they have been more sound defensively? Yes but when you play fast sometimes you give up more points per game but its also relative to the pace of the game.

I also saw how their players grew from year to year.

That is coaching sir no matter what you say. Player development is coaching.

 

[surveParticipant]

Marshall should have been starting long before he was. Everyone knew that and some were calling for Roy’s head. You dont know how Drew had this sense of entitlement and was a selfish player. You dont know how his parents were adamant about him starting. You dont know how Drew’s mom’s fire fueled fueds with Taft’s coach Derrick Taylor ultimately forced the exit of her son Landon Drew from the team. Roy admittedly never wanted to yank Drew because he thought Drew would leave the team and he would be essentially stuck with one true PG. Funny, but thats how it ended up playing out regardless.

[SpacegrassParticipant]

Surve , nobody has called for Roys head while he has been at UNC.  As for some of your opinions I feel you are misguided some.

Drew II is talented as you and I both said but he has a sh!t head on his shoulders as a player.  Bobby Frasor despite the injuries and athletic short comings had a excellent basketball mind and it is no surprise that he is now coaching at UNC so soon.  Drew II is a one system PG and that is he is strictly a pick and roll PG in the half court and nothing more.  Roy wants his PG to push the ball and Drew is too prone to bad decisions and getting out of control with that style.  Drew will likely get a shot in the NBA and maybe stick for a few years because of 1)his dad and 2)the NBA is a pick and roll game which is the one thing Larr Drew II can do as a PG.  Ultimately Roy misevaluated Drew as a recruit and some of that is on Roy.  I can deal with him missing once in a while recruiting considering how good he has been with the rest of the players he recruits.  I noticed you mention Reyshawn Terry too?  I liked Terry but I have never seen a more mentaly lost basketball player in my life at UNC.  Plus from speaking to him he is not the sharpest knife in the drawerer and the only reason he was at UNC is that he was the last Doh recruit and an in state kid so Roy was respectful and honored his scholarship much like Jameson Curry would of been a Tarheel had he not got caught selling drugs his Sr year of HS.  If not for that Reyshawn would of never of received a scholarship offer in the first place if not for the timing of the regime change.

As for your opnion about Roy playing guys like Drew II and Strickland over Marshall and Bullock.  The problem sometimes is Roy is too loyal to his older players.  Look at Deon Thompson in the 2008-2009 season , Deon was a soft as Charmin and while had a good offensive repetoire he was one dimensional and playing ahead of Ed Davis who was the better defender , rebounder , and talent by light years.  While Roy’s loyalty has frustrated me at times that is why a lot of players like him because he is loyal.  So while it may frustrate us look at it some from the kids perspectives and ultimately the kids respect that loyalty and that is who matters the most.

As for the 2009-2010 team that I have heard brought up as proof to why Roy can’t coach.  Because he had 7 McDAA on the team though we know the McDAAgame is not the 24 best HS players in the country.  Nobody is going to confuse the Wear twins or Larry Drew as 5 star/top 25 recruits.  If you do you need to read less about recruiting and watch with your eyes more. Unless you watched that team all year you wouldn’t of noticed why they went to the NIT and were 20-17.  1)Not a very balanced team , very frontcourt heavy with little perimeter shooting so that part is on Roy for not recruiting a better balance of guys though his entire team mostly bolted for the NBA the previous season and keep in mind too that Roy does not recruit to the same formula as say Calipari , Roy recruits a foundation class first of guys that will be multiple year players but are still good(see 2005 , 2009 , and 2012 recruiting classes).  Then he follows those classes with high end talent classes(see 2006 , 2010 , and what looks to be the 2013 class).From there he fills in the gaps if need be with the other classes to build a little extra depth depending on who goes to the NBA earlier than originally predicted(see 2004 , 2008 , and 2011 classes).  2)  That 2009-2010 UNC team also lost Ed Davis to injury from the first Dook game through the rest of the season along with Tyler Zeller who missed 11 games during the heart of the conference season in which during that stretch UNC went 2-9.  Roy’s system is offensively predicated on having a big or two that can score and that team struggled to score once it’s two best bigs were injured essentially sinking their NCAA tourney hopes.  Keep in  mind when that team was at full strength they came one basket away from beating UK with Wall , Cousins , and Bledsoe at Rupp and while I don’t think they were any better than a sweet 16 team if healthy I felt if they don’t lose Davis and Zeller at those critical times they were a 6-8 seed in the tourney and 8-8 to 9-7 in the ACC rather than 5-11 and NIT runner ups.

If you think Roy is an overrated coach I can’t help you and I don’t know what you have been watching unless you are one of those jealous butt hurt coaches polled in that article.

[surveParticipant]

 all I know is, everyone I talk to personally that are UNC fans say the same thing…Roy wins off talent alone.  I dont want to hear about that he recruits his butt off, what is he supposed to do with that program and his salary?  Furthermore, he doesnt have to recruit at all.

If Harrison Barnes was a more fragile player mentally as say Larry Drew, his career would be over.  Drew was not overvalued as a recruit.  If you notice, Drew regressed each game.  He can shoot and he is a good defender, but he is a selfish basketball player that didnt bond with his teammates.  When it was time to huddle up….usually one of the other players had to go find his azz to pull him in the huddle!

"As for your opnion about Roy playing guys like Drew II and Strickland over Marshall and Bullock. The problem sometimes is Roy is too loyal to his older players."

Now this is where we agree 110%.  Thats my whole point.  Forget loyalty to upperclassmen.  It makes the team bad when players are undeserving get to play in front of those who are.

some examples of good coaching….

I seen Jim Calhoun yank Jerome Dyson out of a game and cuss him out, regardless of whether he was leading scorer or not, didnt matter.  You will play the way he wants you to play.  Ask Oriakhi.

When Austin Rivers wasnt doing what Coach K needed, he didnt start.  Golden boy or not, Coach K needs to send you a message and has no problem doing it.  It helped and humbled Rivers.

"Because he had 7 McDAA on the team though we know the McDAAgame is not the 24 best HS players in the country. Nobody is going to confuse the Wear twins or Larry Drew as 5 star/top 25 recruits."

Now who is manipulating the truth to support their argument?  They had their chances.  He just couldnt corrale the troops.  I never said the Wear Twins or Drew were top 25 players.  In fact…who said that?  They were top 50-60 players.  Something a lot of other teams didnt have, especially with that size.  If it wasnt for Henson’s hustle, they wouldve lost a lot more games that year.  The ACC was not particularly dominant at that time.

The fact is, Gary Williams had two Final Four teams with a lot less talent than that.  Now there is a coach for you.  Gary just had lost touch and wasnt willing to play the AAU relationship game.  He couldnt get a quarter of talent that we got at UNC or he wouldve been kicking our azzes too!

[jaycee24Participant]

 Tom Izzo

[SpacegrassParticipant]

I agree Izzo is not overrated but it’s funny how many times he has been curb stomped even a couple times when he has had better teams by Roy at UNC yet Roy is overrated?  Roy is 6-0 against Izzo while at UNC nuff said on how terrible this poll was.

[surveParticipant]

Tom Izzo is one of my top 3-5 coaches.  Bar none.

[JoeWolf1]

 Barnes has had my vote for a long time.  He’s not a great in game or X’s and O’s coach.  Just a monster recruiter who coaches the most prolific college in one of the nation’s most productive states as far as pumping out top recruits.

[surveParticipant]

Barnes is not a next level coach. He is good enough to get you to a certain point like he did Clemson. He established a helluva pipeline with Findlay Prep and that has helped him.  Still, with all the talent he has, he cant get over the humps.  He may be overated by some but I never thought he was that great because he could only go so far with Clemson and he got stuck.  Yes, he didnt get the talent down there, hence the reason why he took the best job available.  He is good enough to get a team with x amount of talent to a certain plateau but no further.

[akhan786Participant]

I think the biggest example of Roy Williams ineptitude as an ingame coach came last year in the Elite Eight.

The game was closely contested until last few minutes until Bill Self switched to the Triangle and 2. That left Roy Williams and his team baffled and Kansas goes on a big run that Carolina couldn’t stop. Carolina misses their last 9 shots…

Asked about why he didn’t adjust to Self changing to the Triangle and 2 Roy answered that he had no idea that Self had changed to it…

Wow is all I got to say…

[ThepessimestParticipant]

Please show me the link to this staement. I have a hard time believing this happened honestly. But sometimes as a coach you are so caught up that this could slip by you for a few possessions possibly but for a whole game? I have to see this interview. 

[akhan786Participant]

It wasn’t for the whole game. It was for the last 8 minutes or so and Roy did not know that they switched to that defense every possession till the end of the game.

I asked Williams what impact the triangle-and-two had on his team. His answer was stunning.

"I know they did for one possession, and they may have for another possession," Williams said. "I’m not sure about that."

Williams clearly was unsure because from press row it looked like the Jayhawks played the triangle-and-two for nearly half of the final 20 minutes. The Jayhawks confirmed that they played the combo defense for the final eight or nine minutes.

"It put their guys who are not used to scoring the ball in position to score," Kansas guard Tyshawn Taylor said. "It confused them a little bit. …

LINK

Kind of weird isn’t it? I had a hard time believing it too because it didn’t make sense that NO ONE on that bench figured out that Kansas had changed their defense for the entirety of the last quarter of the game.

[ThepessimestParticipant]

I do recall that game. More than a triangle and 2 they forced the back up PG to make decisions. He struggled big time. But him not knowing it was done for the remaining 8 minutes or so is confusing for a coach of his ilk. The back up PG was simply over-matched and really you could say they defended everyone on the floor except him. He was left open every time down. In trying to find a reason why he didn’t know (lol) I’m assuming he just saw their defense as one that sagged off their weak link. 

[surveParticipant]

 he didnt know because he doesnt really care.  he has a cut and dry style and approach when it comes to x’s and o’s.  hit the offensive glass and get your azz out in transition.  if it is a question that pertains to half court offense or defense…expect him to be clueless.

you guys must didnt see how they struggled in the half court this year against teams like Maryland.  Offense and Defense half court was shitty.  The only thing that saved them was they just dominated the glass and had a lil more firepower from deep.  

and let’s not bring up the drubbing at the hands of the offensively challenged Florida State.  A Davidas Dulkys siting usually only happens when FSU plays UNC.

[JoeWolf1]

 Roy did a lot less with his teams at KU in the early 2000’s before the Hinrch/Gooden/Collison class hit their stride.  He got big recruits like Eric Chenowith and Kenny Gregory, but when they didn’t pan out they weren’t a very good team.  He can assemble talent, but he’s not going to be a guy to take a team going through adversity and get them to play at a high level.  He proved that again at UNC.

[SpacegrassParticipant]

You have the link?  Also the fact that they had no PG and Stillman White v Tyshawn Taylor was a huge advantage for KU.  You ever think Roy didn’t want Stillman to feel that it was his fault they lost to Kansas? 

[Bill Walton’s KneesParticipant]

No excuse…UNC had way more talent then KU did and still got beat by double digits

[SpacegrassParticipant]

Your takes on this topic are blown out like Bill Waltons knees.  UNC had more front court talent but somebody has to get the frontcourt the ball in a position to score and you had Stillman White vs Tyshawn Taylor.  I knew UNC was not going to beat KU I was just happy they got by Ohio once Marshall was hurt.

[providencefriars1Participant]

Give Barnes credit for having some success at Providence, few coaches have.

[SpacegrassParticipant]

And Clemson but yea he has dropped the ball at Texcas of late.

[bswervesParticipant]

Roy Williams, all things considered, is the effing man who accomplishes (with ease) the primary objective of any coach: win basketball games.  I can almost guarantee that almost every major D-I school would flip their @#$% if Roy Williams came to coach for them.  Is he the best X’s and O’s coach?  Not even close.  Does he make great in-game adjustments? No.  As a Carolina alum and life-long Tarheel fan, RW does a lot of things that frustrate the dadgum heck out of me (like not ever using a time-out for example), but I really wouldn’t trade him for anyone else.  Why?  Because he wins games.  A lot of games.  Handily. 

No one out there outworks Roy on the recruiting trail, and although he is not a great in game coach, he does a phenomenal job of getting his teams to gel well together, and more importantly, peak at the right time.  This is extraordinarily difficult to do as a coach in any sport, to get your team to constantly build momentum and then hit peak performance at precisely the right time.  That takes skill to do that year in and year out. 

At the end of the day, just looking at UNC, 3 Final Fours and 2 National Championships in less than ten years is a hell of an accomplishment.  Not to mention having the highest active winning percentage.  That’s baller.  No matter who your team is, if you play a Roy Williams coached team, there is an 80% chance you will lose.  Furthermore, you probably won’t just lose, but more than likely your team will get crushed into a fine powder and then snorted (see ’09 title game against Mich St.–game was over before the first TV time out). 

[surveParticipant]

 too much credit….any good coach couldve done the same thing with two teams that had nearly 10 combined 1st round picks.

May, McCants, Marvin Williams, Ray Felton, Hansbrough, Lawson, Ellington, Zeller.  then throw in others like Jawad Williams, Noel, Terry, Thompson, Green, etc….

what a great coach doesnt do is lose with a team full of talent.  they dont get blown out by 40 points when being considered a top 10 team in the nation.

Roy has brought some highs with the championships but he has also brought some extreme lows.  

The Kendall Marshall injury is one of the worst things that pisses me off because as valuable as he was, UNC still had enough talent to win.  They shouldve beaten KU!  Roy told Stilman White not to shoot the ball against KU and that messed White’s mindset up bad. The fact is, Roy is never prepared as a coach to make adjustments.  He doesnt know how to use the players right.  Strickland shouldnt be the SG….but bet he will be and Bullock will slide to the 3 and Hairston will come off the bench.  Just doesnt know how to use players plus shows too much loyalty to upperclassmen.

I remember how GT was kicking our azz.  Roy never uses his T/O’s when he needs and uselessly substitutes players in and out.  McDonald was doing a good job on Shumpert defensively but Roy kept yanking him.  Shump went crazy when he saw Strickland….a guy he could just steamroll to the hoop or shoot over the top of.  Its not coincidental that a lot of players had their career bests against Roy’s teams.  

 

[surveParticipant]

 "Sometimes figuring out who should be playing isn’t as simple as you suggest it is."

It is if you are smart enough to know when you are getting you butt handed to you.

 

[surveParticipant]

 I will call on you, my fellow NC resident to vouch for me when I say I have no emotion when it comes to this and I have been a UNC fan since I was a little boy.  I am only 41 but I saw Phil Ford and Dudley Bradley play.

Akhan I am sure will agree that Duke has rarely been on par with UNC’s talent level, yet they end up kicking our azz every year.  They always managed to get the ACC title or the Regular Season, even when it look like they should finish past 3rd place.

There is a reason for this.  As much as I hate Duke, Coach K and Roy are not on the same planet as far as coaching.   Coach K IMO is one of the top 3-4 coaches out there.  I dont know where I would rank Roy, but I could begin naming coaches I feel are better and it would be at least til I got to 25 before I would even think of his name to bring up.

[akhan786Participant]

I’m pretty sure you guys kicked our azz last year Surve lol. And yes how I would love for Coach K to get his hands on the talent on UNC’s teams since 2005.

But let’s be real…if you were a big time recruit with an almost certain shot at the NBA why in the hell would you go to Duke? A demanding coach that will actually take you out of your comfort zone and one that actually makes you go to class. Based on the fact that Duke is one of the Top 10 universities in the world I imagine their form of "Rocks for Jocks" are a great deal harder than other basketball powerhouses.

It’s not for everyone.

Although Duke gets their fair share of McDAA’s they are almost always the lower tier of McDAA’s that aren’t for sure NBA stars. Off the top of my head the only for sure NBA stars Coach K has gotten are Grant Hill, Elton Brand, Jay Williams, and Kyrie Irving. Carolina has probably had 3 times as many great NBA prospects over the last two decades.

I think the main difference between Roy and Coach K is that Coach K knows how to adapt to the personnel on his team. You’ve seen all different styles from Coach K from the past decade fast, slow, strong half-court teams, dominant fast breaking teams. He’ll change an entire offense to fit the style of his best player. A recent case would be Kyrie where he essentially told Kyrie that here are the keys and go.

Roy has one system and if he doesn’t have the personnel he really struggles. But you have to admit…when he has the horses capable of running his system…his teams are ABSOLUTELY dominant. So is that really wrong? He can’t adapt but not many other coaches can do his system as well as he can.

Maybe Roy can shut up the naysayers this year…he has a team not constructed to best fit his system. A load of wings and some question marks in the front court. I’ve been to a couple of Pro Am games and although this setting is made for guys like them…PJ Hairston and Reggie Bullock looked like monsters out there. PJ got the season MVP and Reggie just got the Tournament MVP. Then add in James McAdoo who was the only Top 6 recruit from last year back for his sophomore season and UNC has a very talented team which imo would be VERY hard to mess up.

It’ll be interesting to see if Roy actually changes his system to benefit his greatest asset this year which is his plethora of wings because if he doesn’t I think Carolina will have a very rough year in comparison to their expectations…

[surveParticipant]

 It takes talent to win at a high level.

Some coaches can win with minimal talent.

One thing a great coach does not do though is LOSE with top talent.

The team that failed to make the tourney for the first time in 30 years had much more talent than half the teams out there.  Even the UConn team this year with Drummond and Lamb was no where near that talent level.  Although I felt like they wouldve been better if the NCAA wasnt screwing them around with Boatright.

Still.  UNC had Drew, Strickland, McDonald, Deon Thompson, Tyler Zeller, Ed Davis, Marcus Ginyard, Will Graves, John Henson, Justin Watts (who was a decent player too coming out of HS), David Wear, Travis Wear.

WOuld like for you to explain how one doesnt make a field of 64 with that much talent?  

If you are oblivious to the criticism Roy has recieved then I dont believe you are as in tune with UNC basketball as you would like to believe.

[surveParticipant]

 I explained about Barnes.  Good coach but gets stuck at certain level.

Scott Drew, I was rooting for this guy but he just did not know how to use those players…at all.

Steve Lavin, I think he is a good coach so I dont have a comment on him

Jay Wright, I think he is good too,  I could be wrong though.

Ben Howland, not good…and he will have a real test with letting Drew run his team….it could be his swan song.

Jim Boeheim, for years I thought he was the most overated coach.  He has changed my opinion of him.  He is a one dimensional and I think soft on his players, but he his doing what he is supposed to be doing with his teams…at least as of late.

Amaker, I dont know.  I thought he was a good coach but had some tough starts and stops.  Again, I could be wrong but I think Amaker is decent.

[surveParticipant]

 Shaka Smart…excellent coach, that should be proven by now.  Turned down millions several times to stay loyal to VCU.  One day, he will get a high powered job, but for now, I like his attitude in Richmond.

Mark Gottfried, took the same team (actually less, minus Tracy Smith and Ryan Harrow) that Sidney Lowe had and did work.  Granted, Sidney Lowe was terrible but I dont think the hype on Gottfried is unwarranted.

Leonard Hamilton, I really have been critical of him and he still deserves criticism for his offensive liabilities….but this guy puts together smothering defensive teams year in and year out.  It has been his calling card.

John Calipari, call him a crook, a media whore, or a guy who just knows how to get talent…but we have seen, he knows what to do and how to win with the talent he has.  he gets his players to buy in.  maybe not great at XO but he is motivational to say the least.

Tom Crean, gotta admire a guy who is turning a lost program around.  He is putting together solid teams with not many big name recruits.

[BlueRivers25Participant]

Roy is a good coach. He has a certain game style that is attractive to many blue chip players; fast break as much as possible, yet he is still able to recruit big men and utilize them (something Coach K doesnt do well IMO). He recruits top players, and get his guys into the NBA, plus he has 2 National Championships, hard to agrue against that.

But there is something about Roy that I dont find interesting, other than being the head coach of UNC. He seems dull, with no personality in his interviews and press conferences. (Coach K is one of the best IMO).

I do find it hilarious that Roy is voted as the #1 overrated coach by his PEERS! Not fans, Not media types, not players, but other coaches.

[surveParticipant]

 Roy is obviously a good coach to be on this level.  Thats not in question really.  Neither are his accomplishments.  The question is…is he overated?  Hell YES.

you are tellin me that Coach K, Calhoun, Izzo, Self, Boeheim, Pitino, etc…couldnt win 2 titles with 7 NBA lottery picks?  see thats what the issue is.  Roy did win championships, but its not like he built the UNC name or Kansas name for that matter.  

Mostly anyone can go to UNC and get top talent.  Doherty did it.  So is he a better recruiter?  He didnt do it at SMU. When you say big name recruits like his style, you are going to see a change in that trend due to how average Harrison Barnes looked and his slippage in the draft.

Barnes I believe is as good a player as believed when he came out of HS but Roy’s system made him look really ordinary.  I believe because of his character he will still be a good player like Paul Pierce, but had he went somewhere like Iowa State, he prob would be one and done and top 3 pick and possibly # 1.

I think this has hurt UNC from getting the top top players, like a Shabazz Muhammad and those coming after.  Particularly wing players.  Barnes NBA prospect was getting worse each year and he is not that bad of a player…yet had he came back this year, he wouldve likely slipped out of the lottery.

[akhan786Participant]

I have some connects with the Julius Randle recruitment and it turns out some recruits are taking notice that so many of Roy’s surefire one and dones are either not getting to leave after one year or if they do they don’t exactly pan out…

Ed Davis’s, John Henson’s, and McAdoo’s careers at UNC are being looked down upon with some of the high level recruits and UNC is essentially out of the race for Randle.

I don’t really think it is a fair and accurate representation of those UNC players’ careers since each one all had a unique situation contributing to them staying more years but these are high school kids and this kind of a perception is sticking.

Of course that wasn’t the sole reason why Randle won’t be considering UNC (him and his family didn’t really take kindly to some of Roy’s negative recruiting tactics) but I still thought it was interesting that he mentioned it especially since UNC is lauded for their big men even though their best big men in the league is probably Brendan Haywood…

[surveParticipant]

 right, its all about one and done now, so you go to UK or some place where you can shine.  UNC is not that place….never has been, even before Roy….but its gotten worse with Roy because his guys seem to regress or at least their weaknesses arent masked as well as in a system like UK.   I think Harrison Barnes is going to be a good NBA player, but the fact that his UNC career is viewed as less than stellar….that has to be a huge hit to recruiting out of the one and done calibur talent pool.

[bswervesParticipant]

Surve you are out of control dude.  How many of the "25 coaches" that you feel are better than Roy Williams can win you multiple national championships?  

You mention Calipari as a coach that is better than Roy and use the following as the basis:

"John Calipari, call him a crook, a media whore, or a guy who just knows how to get talent…but we have seen, he knows what to do and how to win with the talent he has. he gets his players to buy in. maybe not great at XO but he is motivational to say the least"  

Doesn’t that pretty much describe Roy to a tee?  And Roy has twice the amount of national championships and a higher winning percentage. 

Anyways, if two teams had equal talent, I’ll take Roy and you take Shaka or whoever it is you love, and we’ll see who wins

 

 

[surveParticipant]

 "Surve you are out of control dude. How many of the "25 coaches" that you feel are better than Roy Williams can win you multiple national championships?"

you took two statements out of context and combined them into something I never said.  I said I could name 25 coaches I felt were better.  I didnt say 25 coaches that can win multiple championships….not the same thing.  If you want to phrase it in a way you think I meant it, it would be better to say that I believe that there are 25 coaches who if given the same teams that Roy had couldve won multiples I can go with that.

Coach K, Calipari, Calhoun, Pitino, Self, Boeheim, Izzo, Matta, Donovan, Gottfried, Fisher, Martin, Huggins, Tubby, Dixon, Majerus, Larry Brown…

thats 17, so I may fall short of 25 but I said I could probably get to that point before I thought of him….now…I didnt have to reach or strain my brain for that list.  Also, I didnt include any of the guys on the overated list nor did I add some good young coaches.  Most of those coaches on that list have proved they can win at a high level with not the most talent.  

Stop comparing Calipari’s record and credentials to Roy.  When Roy got to Kansas, they were already a power, when he got to UNC??? no comment.  When Cal got to UMass were they a power?  How bout Memphis?  You are talking mid majors here.  

If you think Roy Williams could have the success at VCU with the same talent that Shaka has then you dont know Roy.

[FastAndFuriousParticipant]

 And Cal cleaned up Gillepsie’s mess at UK, Cal is a freakin genius.

[surveParticipant]

 also, I believe Frank Haith should be added to the list of overated.  He was terrible at Miami.  

[surveParticipant]

Roy walked into great programs.  Didnt Larry Brown win a title at Kansas before Roy took over?  

How many of you guys are old enough to remember when Kansas had Drew Gooden, Nick Collison, Kenny Gregory, Kirk Heinrich….???  What about the team that had Paul Pierce, Raef Lafrenz, Jacque Vaughn, Scot Pollard, Greg Ostertag???  He had some serious talent with high expectations.  The only way he was able to win was with over the top talent….like 4 first round draft picks the same year.  Those teams that Roy won with at UNC basically couldve coached themselves.  But throw some adversity on him, give him a team with below stellar talent…yeah, he will still win some games, but like Joewolf said, there is a ceiling as to how far he can take a team that isnt totally stacked.  Losing to KU in the Great 8 was frustrating because KU was a team that overachieved.  Even without KMarsh, UNC couldve won that game.  Duke didnt even have a legit PG this year and their frontline in no way compared to UNC’s talent, they only had one guy who could even get his own shot….yet look what happened.

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