[Bankroll PJParticipant]

In the NBA I believe there are 3 upper tiers of PGs.

Tier 1: Stephen Curry, Russell Westbrook, and CP3 (Kyrie Irving and John Wall are borderline

Tier 2: Damien Lillard, Mike Conley, Jeff Teague, Derrick Rose, Tony Parker

Tier 3: Ty Lawson, Brandon Knight, Eric Bledsoe, Kyle Lowry, Jrue Holiday, and Tyreke Evans, Deron Williams, and Goran Dragic

Do you guys think any of the young guards in the NBA will reach these tiers in the next 2 or 3 years?, And if so, how far can they rise?

I’m looking at guys like Marcus Smart, Dante Exum, MCW, Elfrid Payton, D’Angelo Russell, Emmanuel Mudiay, Zach Lavine, Dennis Schroeder, and Reggie Jackson

 

[whiteflashParticipant]

 Lavine needs to be a 2. He can play spot minutes at the 1, I see him being a way more athletic Jamal Crawford. That’s his ceiling. Also, I’d take Brandon Jennings over everyone but Lawson in your tier 3 group. Finally, think Mudiay won’t pan out. Not saying he’ll be a bust, but he’ll never be what people thought. He keeps getting compared to Wall or Westbrook. That’s insane. He’s not half the athlete either of those two are, can’t shoot, struggles finishing through contact, turnover prone, can’t hit ft’s….. He had one good SL game against DAVID STOCKTON but otherwise played like shit.  I see him being a taller Ray Felton without the off the court issues.

[whiteflashParticipant]

 Lavine needs to be a 2. He can play spot minutes at the 1, I see him being a way more athletic Jamal Crawford. That’s his ceiling. Also, I’d take Brandon Jennings over everyone but Lawson in your tier 3 group. Finally, think Mudiay won’t pan out. Not saying he’ll be a bust, but he’ll never be what people thought. He keeps getting compared to Wall or Westbrook. That’s insane. He’s not half the athlete either of those two are, can’t shoot, struggles finishing through contact, turnover prone, can’t hit ft’s….. He had one good SL game against DAVID STOCKTON but otherwise played like shit.  I see him being a taller Ray Felton without the off the court issues.

[Arc12345Participant]

I really believe if you have Irving and Wall as bordlerline Tier 1 you better have Lillard there with them.

I’d take Lillard as the PG of my team over Wall and Irving.

  

[Arc12345Participant]

I really believe if you have Irving and Wall as bordlerline Tier 1 you better have Lillard there with them.

I’d take Lillard as the PG of my team over Wall and Irving.

  

[GBeeParticipant]

 Lillard is a chucker personified.  Not exactly in terms of volume, which is high but not crazy, but he’s a chucker in terms of shot selection.  I think we’ll see just how little impact he has on the bottom line (winning) this year.  Below average playmaker, poor defender, poor shot selection with a hero ball attitude. He always plays with a chip on his shoulder, but his way of expressing it just leads to a lot of bad shots.  Players who take as many shots as he does in the clutch will come through occasionally, but we don’t see the countless times he shoots his team out of games and taking bad shots at the end of games.  He reminds me of Arenas with his style of play and I don’t mean that in a good way.  I personally think that him being the point made his former FA teammates’ decisions a bit easier.

[GBeeParticipant]

 Lillard is a chucker personified.  Not exactly in terms of volume, which is high but not crazy, but he’s a chucker in terms of shot selection.  I think we’ll see just how little impact he has on the bottom line (winning) this year.  Below average playmaker, poor defender, poor shot selection with a hero ball attitude. He always plays with a chip on his shoulder, but his way of expressing it just leads to a lot of bad shots.  Players who take as many shots as he does in the clutch will come through occasionally, but we don’t see the countless times he shoots his team out of games and taking bad shots at the end of games.  He reminds me of Arenas with his style of play and I don’t mean that in a good way.  I personally think that him being the point made his former FA teammates’ decisions a bit easier.

[whiteflashParticipant]

 Ok, if you consider Lillard a chucker what do you call Irving? A super chucker? I like both of their games, but I think you’re taking a skewed angle on certain things. I’ve watched quite a few Blazer games [lived in Portland for a bit] and don’t agree that Lillard takes as many bad shots as you seem to think, or even as many bad shots as Irving for that matter. I do agree that it looks kind of sketchy that EVERYBODY bounced as soon as they could, but I think Lillard will be out to prove himself, notably that he can defend and that they’ll surprise people in the win column. Also, always thought Wall [and Beal while we’re at it] are overrated.

[GBeeParticipant]

 They have similar tendencies, but Kyrie happens to be better at it than Lillard. He’s the better shooter and does a better job creating space for his looks.  Higher TS, higher eFG, greater %’s in the clutch as well.  Both are heavily reliant on their jump shots, yet Kyrie’s eFG on jumpers trumps Lillard’s at 51% to 47%.  Their mid games aren’t comparable with Kyrie shooting an elite 47% from there compared to Damian’s 39%.  That elite aspect of his game makes him that much more hard to guard in screen roll situations because he’s very good at and has to be closely checked at every level of the PnR game.  

When you look at their stats in clutch situations the gap widens even more.  End of clock situations both are good, but Irving is better shooting a god-like 49 eFG% to Lillard’s 45%, and this is with Irving generating more of his own offense in those situations (69% unassisted offense compared to DL’s 62%).  Irving is a killer down the stretch of games with a net rating of +22 in clutch moments compared to Lillard’s +9, with an eFG of 43.4% compared to 39%.  

But just looking at attributes, Kyrie is simply harder to guard because of his elite ball-handling ability.  He can get to anywhere he wants to on the floor as opposed to Lillard who’s not as shifty or elusive with the ball and is heavily reliant on stepbacks. You could make the argument that Kyrie benefitted from playing with LBJ and that led to better looks, but Kyrie generates the majority if his own offense with he and Lillard’s unassisted offense being identical at 67%.  Both played on good offensive teams, with Kyrie having the benefit of playing with LBJ and Lillard playing in an offense with premium spacing, one of the best scoring big men in the game, while being flanked by 3, sometimes 4 other shooters in the game with him.

Kyrie’s presence in CLE made it easier for LBJ to go back.  He witnessed first hand what it was like to play with Kyrie during Team USA’s camp. I think he wanted to play with Kyrie, whereas it looks like former teammates are running away from playing with Lillard.  There’s a reason why Kyrie made team USA, became the eventual starter and was MVP of the entire event, while Lillard didn’t even make the team and likely won’t be part of it going forward.  Factor in that Kyrie has a year more of experience, yet is 2 years younger than Lillard and to me it’d be a no brainer choosing b/t the 2.

 

[whiteflashParticipant]

 That was well written and researched, but highlights part of my problems with analytics [not a knock against you]. Despite playing on a team with 2 of the top 10 players in the league, Iriving averages less assists than Lillard, less rebounds and takes more shots. And, I don’t care what the analytics say, if I’m choosing between those two to take the last shot, I’m going Lillard every time. Hell, I’m taking Lillard over everyone in the league not named Kobe Bryant. You also have to consider that Lillard hasn’t missed a single game in his NBA career while Irving is pretty consitently injured. I believe if you switched ’em Cleveland would be better with Lillard. Obviously no way to tell that, just my personal opinion.

[Pro-21Participant]

 Kyrie is essentially the cavs SG. LeBron basically runs the point. He averages 5+ assists, which is fine as a secondary ballhandler. Irving is a solid passer who could prob. average 24 ppg and 6.5 assists on this team w.out lebron.

[Pro-21Participant]

 Kyrie is essentially the cavs SG. LeBron basically runs the point. He averages 5+ assists, which is fine as a secondary ballhandler. Irving is a solid passer who could prob. average 24 ppg and 6.5 assists on this team w.out lebron.

[Pro-21Participant]

 Kyrie is essentially the cavs SG. LeBron basically runs the point. He averages 5+ assists, which is fine as a secondary ballhandler. Irving is a solid passer who could prob. average 24 ppg and 6.5 assists on this team w.out lebron. Also …

 

There is NO WAY cleveland would be better w. lillard. Lillard is simply not the all around scorer that Kyrie is, as this dude mentioned, he lacks the elite mid range game of the truly elite scorers. He is also a streakier shooter than Irving, who really doesn’t go through too many slumps, and even when he is, he can still hit his mid range shot and get to the basket because he’s quickness and ballhandling ability makes containing him almost impossible. Lillard isn’t dropping 50+ on the Spurs, I’m sorry.

 

 

[whiteflashParticipant]

 Lillard has a tough matchup damn near nightly in the West, while Irving plays, well, we all know where he plays. Also, Corey Brewer and Terrence Ross have dropped 50. Anyone can get hot. Obviously not comparing them to Irving [who I like], but let’s be honest: He was putting up good numbers on a bad team then had two of the top 10 guys in the league join him and he put up basically the exact same numbers while not being the focal point for D’s most nights. Again, I like Irving, but I’d honestly take Lillard at this point. If Lillard comes out and shits the bed this season then I’ll sing a different tune, haha.

[Pro-21Participant]

 But i think the "eye" test is enough to tell that Kyrie is a better player. Point guards regularly have their best game of the season against him. Lillard’s best seasons is only comparable to Kyrie’s worst season in terms of TS%, even though he’s never been the main focus of a defense because he has LMA to take the pressure off him. He’s had worse stats his whole career even though he’s two years older and has played with a high level, well rounded playoff team with a legit superstar the entire time> I think that points toward Irving being a much better player. 

People will see how Lillard does this year lol

 

 

[Pro-21Participant]

 But i think the "eye" test is enough to tell that Kyrie is a better player. Point guards regularly have their best game of the season against him. Lillard’s best seasons is only comparable to Kyrie’s worst season in terms of TS%, even though he’s never been the main focus of a defense because he has LMA to take the pressure off him. He’s had worse stats his whole career even though he’s two years older and has played with a high level, well rounded playoff team with a legit superstar the entire time> I think that points toward Irving being a much better player. 

People will see how Lillard does this year lol

 

 

[whiteflashParticipant]

 Lillard has a tough matchup damn near nightly in the West, while Irving plays, well, we all know where he plays. Also, Corey Brewer and Terrence Ross have dropped 50. Anyone can get hot. Obviously not comparing them to Irving [who I like], but let’s be honest: He was putting up good numbers on a bad team then had two of the top 10 guys in the league join him and he put up basically the exact same numbers while not being the focal point for D’s most nights. Again, I like Irving, but I’d honestly take Lillard at this point. If Lillard comes out and shits the bed this season then I’ll sing a different tune, haha.

[Pro-21Participant]

 Kyrie is essentially the cavs SG. LeBron basically runs the point. He averages 5+ assists, which is fine as a secondary ballhandler. Irving is a solid passer who could prob. average 24 ppg and 6.5 assists on this team w.out lebron. Also …

 

There is NO WAY cleveland would be better w. lillard. Lillard is simply not the all around scorer that Kyrie is, as this dude mentioned, he lacks the elite mid range game of the truly elite scorers. He is also a streakier shooter than Irving, who really doesn’t go through too many slumps, and even when he is, he can still hit his mid range shot and get to the basket because he’s quickness and ballhandling ability makes containing him almost impossible. Lillard isn’t dropping 50+ on the Spurs, I’m sorry.

 

 

[whiteflashParticipant]

 That was well written and researched, but highlights part of my problems with analytics [not a knock against you]. Despite playing on a team with 2 of the top 10 players in the league, Iriving averages less assists than Lillard, less rebounds and takes more shots. And, I don’t care what the analytics say, if I’m choosing between those two to take the last shot, I’m going Lillard every time. Hell, I’m taking Lillard over everyone in the league not named Kobe Bryant. You also have to consider that Lillard hasn’t missed a single game in his NBA career while Irving is pretty consitently injured. I believe if you switched ’em Cleveland would be better with Lillard. Obviously no way to tell that, just my personal opinion.

[GBeeParticipant]

 They have similar tendencies, but Kyrie happens to be better at it than Lillard. He’s the better shooter and does a better job creating space for his looks.  Higher TS, higher eFG, greater %’s in the clutch as well.  Both are heavily reliant on their jump shots, yet Kyrie’s eFG on jumpers trumps Lillard’s at 51% to 47%.  Their mid games aren’t comparable with Kyrie shooting an elite 47% from there compared to Damian’s 39%.  That elite aspect of his game makes him that much more hard to guard in screen roll situations because he’s very good at and has to be closely checked at every level of the PnR game.  

When you look at their stats in clutch situations the gap widens even more.  End of clock situations both are good, but Irving is better shooting a god-like 49 eFG% to Lillard’s 45%, and this is with Irving generating more of his own offense in those situations (69% unassisted offense compared to DL’s 62%).  Irving is a killer down the stretch of games with a net rating of +22 in clutch moments compared to Lillard’s +9, with an eFG of 43.4% compared to 39%.  

But just looking at attributes, Kyrie is simply harder to guard because of his elite ball-handling ability.  He can get to anywhere he wants to on the floor as opposed to Lillard who’s not as shifty or elusive with the ball and is heavily reliant on stepbacks. You could make the argument that Kyrie benefitted from playing with LBJ and that led to better looks, but Kyrie generates the majority if his own offense with he and Lillard’s unassisted offense being identical at 67%.  Both played on good offensive teams, with Kyrie having the benefit of playing with LBJ and Lillard playing in an offense with premium spacing, one of the best scoring big men in the game, while being flanked by 3, sometimes 4 other shooters in the game with him.

Kyrie’s presence in CLE made it easier for LBJ to go back.  He witnessed first hand what it was like to play with Kyrie during Team USA’s camp. I think he wanted to play with Kyrie, whereas it looks like former teammates are running away from playing with Lillard.  There’s a reason why Kyrie made team USA, became the eventual starter and was MVP of the entire event, while Lillard didn’t even make the team and likely won’t be part of it going forward.  Factor in that Kyrie has a year more of experience, yet is 2 years younger than Lillard and to me it’d be a no brainer choosing b/t the 2.

 

[ChicagoCaseyParticipant]

 Wall and Beal overrated. Have to disagree. I have to lean on the side where there underrated. Wall consistently got better every season in the league and when faced up against the top point guards he always play equal to them or play better. He’s the second best two way point guard in the league, behind Chris Paul. Since returning from his knee injury 2 and a half seasons ago he been a top 5 point guard in the league, led HIS team to the second round of the playoffs on both of his occasions and in the playoffs he played great (esspecially this season). Now he’s the 4th best point guard in the league. He should’ve been on an All-NBA team the last two seasons, but the media showed it’s bias towards him.

Beal had one of the most underrated postseason runs of all players in the league. I believe he’s the 4th youngest player to have I believe 8 or more 20 point games. He averaged 23.5 points per game, 5 assist per game, also 5 rebounds per game, and to top it all off he played great defense on bpth all star players Kyle Korver and Demar Derozan. No one says he’s a top 3 shooting guard, but he have the potential to be there and he’s only 22 years of age.

  

[whiteflashParticipant]

 My problem with Wall is he still can’t shoot, doesn’t get to the line and settles too much, among other things. Beal, despite playing next to one of the more willing passers in the game still only gets 15 a night, settles for way too many long 2’s, can’t consistently get his own shot and almost NEVER attacks the defense. When a guy shoots 42% from the floor but 40% from 3 you know he’s not aggressive enough. Maybe overrated wasn’t the right word. Maybe should’ve written "underachieving".

[ChicagoCaseyParticipant]

 The Bradley Beal take is mostly due to Randy Wittman and his injuries. He can never be healthy consistently and when he was in the playoffs with new personnel on the court he played outstanding. 

Once the offense changed to using a stretch four more Bradley  Beal flourished, this is the first time ever Randy Wittman used a stretched four. And I believe when John Wall got injured Bradley Beal played better as the primary ball handler. If I was the Wizards I would let Bradley Beal be the primary ball handler when John Wall is on the bench.

The John Wall thing is mostly due to lack of respect from the referees. He drives the ball and don’t get calls. I believe that’s a primary reason why he settles. 

But, next year I can see Bradley Beal, John Wall, and Marcin Gortat break out more due to the new playing style and the changes to play more with a stretch four.

 

 

 

 

[ChicagoCaseyParticipant]

 The Bradley Beal take is mostly due to Randy Wittman and his injuries. He can never be healthy consistently and when he was in the playoffs with new personnel on the court he played outstanding. 

Once the offense changed to using a stretch four more Bradley  Beal flourished, this is the first time ever Randy Wittman used a stretched four. And I believe when John Wall got injured Bradley Beal played better as the primary ball handler. If I was the Wizards I would let Bradley Beal be the primary ball handler when John Wall is on the bench.

The John Wall thing is mostly due to lack of respect from the referees. He drives the ball and don’t get calls. I believe that’s a primary reason why he settles. 

But, next year I can see Bradley Beal, John Wall, and Marcin Gortat break out more due to the new playing style and the changes to play more with a stretch four.

 

 

 

 

[whiteflashParticipant]

 My problem with Wall is he still can’t shoot, doesn’t get to the line and settles too much, among other things. Beal, despite playing next to one of the more willing passers in the game still only gets 15 a night, settles for way too many long 2’s, can’t consistently get his own shot and almost NEVER attacks the defense. When a guy shoots 42% from the floor but 40% from 3 you know he’s not aggressive enough. Maybe overrated wasn’t the right word. Maybe should’ve written "underachieving".

[whiteflashParticipant]

 My problem with Wall is he still can’t shoot, doesn’t get to the line and settles too much, among other things. Beal, despite playing next to one of the more willing passers in the game still only gets 15 a night, settles for way too many long 2’s, can’t consistently get his own shot and almost NEVER attacks the defense. When a guy shoots 42% from the floor but 40% from 3 you know he’s not aggressive enough. Maybe overrated wasn’t the right word. Maybe should’ve written "underachieving".

[whiteflashParticipant]

 My problem with Wall is he still can’t shoot, doesn’t get to the line and settles too much, among other things. Beal, despite playing next to one of the more willing passers in the game still only gets 15 a night, settles for way too many long 2’s, can’t consistently get his own shot and almost NEVER attacks the defense. When a guy shoots 42% from the floor but 40% from 3 you know he’s not aggressive enough. Maybe overrated wasn’t the right word. Maybe should’ve written "underachieving".

[ChicagoCaseyParticipant]

 Wall and Beal overrated. Have to disagree. I have to lean on the side where there underrated. Wall consistently got better every season in the league and when faced up against the top point guards he always play equal to them or play better. He’s the second best two way point guard in the league, behind Chris Paul. Since returning from his knee injury 2 and a half seasons ago he been a top 5 point guard in the league, led HIS team to the second round of the playoffs on both of his occasions and in the playoffs he played great (esspecially this season). Now he’s the 4th best point guard in the league. He should’ve been on an All-NBA team the last two seasons, but the media showed it’s bias towards him.

Beal had one of the most underrated postseason runs of all players in the league. I believe he’s the 4th youngest player to have I believe 8 or more 20 point games. He averaged 23.5 points per game, 5 assist per game, also 5 rebounds per game, and to top it all off he played great defense on bpth all star players Kyle Korver and Demar Derozan. No one says he’s a top 3 shooting guard, but he have the potential to be there and he’s only 22 years of age.

  

[whiteflashParticipant]

 Ok, if you consider Lillard a chucker what do you call Irving? A super chucker? I like both of their games, but I think you’re taking a skewed angle on certain things. I’ve watched quite a few Blazer games [lived in Portland for a bit] and don’t agree that Lillard takes as many bad shots as you seem to think, or even as many bad shots as Irving for that matter. I do agree that it looks kind of sketchy that EVERYBODY bounced as soon as they could, but I think Lillard will be out to prove himself, notably that he can defend and that they’ll surprise people in the win column. Also, always thought Wall [and Beal while we’re at it] are overrated.

[Taylor Gang MikeParticipant]

 Lavine is a 2

[Taylor Gang MikeParticipant]

 Lavine is a 2

[ChicagoCaseyParticipant]

Tier 1 – Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, Chris Paul. I believe these are the three best point guards in the league and they are all can make a case for being the best point guard in the league.

Tier 2 – John Wall. I believe he’s stuck as the 4th best point guard in the league. I believe that he’s not on Steph Curry, Chris Paul, and Russell Westbrook level yet, but he’s a head above tier 3 guys due to his two way all around game and the fact that he leads his team

Tier 3 – Kyrie Irving, Damien Lillard, Derrick Rose, Mike Conley, Tony Parker, Jeff Teague, Kyle Lowry, Eric Bledsoe, Goran Dragic. This is a group that a lot of them can make compelling cases to be the 5th best point guard and they all bundle in together as players that’s the second/third best player on there team. Also, all can make a case for being top 10.

Tier 4 -Ty Lawson, Brandon Knight, Kemba Walker, Brandon Jennings, Reggie Jackson, Deron Williams, Elfrid Payton, Tyreke Evans, Jrue Holliday. This is a group that’s in the range of 10-20 group

 

 

 

[ChicagoCaseyParticipant]

Tier 1 – Chris Paul, Russell Westbrook, Chris Paul. I believe these are the three best point guards in the league and they are all can make a case for being the best point guard in the league.

Tier 2 – John Wall. I believe he’s stuck as the 4th best point guard in the league. I believe that he’s not on Steph Curry, Chris Paul, and Russell Westbrook level yet, but he’s a head above tier 3 guys due to his two way all around game and the fact that he leads his team

Tier 3 – Kyrie Irving, Damien Lillard, Derrick Rose, Mike Conley, Tony Parker, Jeff Teague, Kyle Lowry, Eric Bledsoe, Goran Dragic. This is a group that a lot of them can make compelling cases to be the 5th best point guard and they all bundle in together as players that’s the second/third best player on there team. Also, all can make a case for being top 10.

Tier 4 -Ty Lawson, Brandon Knight, Kemba Walker, Brandon Jennings, Reggie Jackson, Deron Williams, Elfrid Payton, Tyreke Evans, Jrue Holliday. This is a group that’s in the range of 10-20 group

 

 

 

[MJBrownParticipant]

 I’m totally curious as to how you justify putting Irving and Lillard in the same tier as — actually any of those other guys

[MJBrownParticipant]

 I’m totally curious as to how you justify putting Irving and Lillard in the same tier as — actually any of those other guys

[RecoveringVegetarianParticipant]

 Hey now!! Man Yall boys know Yall really  love overrated Jeff Teague!! 

[RecoveringVegetarianParticipant]

 Hey now!! Man Yall boys know Yall really  love overrated Jeff Teague!! 

[Bucks1234Participant]

 MCW could be a beast this year with Jabari coming back and Monroe to go to down low. He will be better then people think. He’s 6’7", long, and can defend. Yes his jump shot needs vast improvement but he’s been looking good at USA camp. Just don’t sleep on him this year!

[Bucks1234Participant]

 MCW could be a beast this year with Jabari coming back and Monroe to go to down low. He will be better then people think. He’s 6’7", long, and can defend. Yes his jump shot needs vast improvement but he’s been looking good at USA camp. Just don’t sleep on him this year!

[Arc12345Participant]

As a hawks fan, I have to say Teague is SUPREMELY overrated. His jumper needs so much work.

[MJBrownParticipant]

 but as a hawks fan, you’d have to admit that he’s really good at being the team’s 3rd best option. I think he’s only overrated if you expect more than what he gives right now

[MJBrownParticipant]

 but as a hawks fan, you’d have to admit that he’s really good at being the team’s 3rd best option. I think he’s only overrated if you expect more than what he gives right now

[Arc12345Participant]

As a hawks fan, I have to say Teague is SUPREMELY overrated. His jumper needs so much work.

[Author]

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