[Ghost01Participant]

 I’m sure most of you know that I am very pro-Jabari Parker in this draft class. I know I have commented a lot about him and I am not trying to compare him to any other prospect such as Wiggins in this post, I just mean in terms of him as a prospect on his own.

I have a ton of respect for Coach K as a basketball coach. I think his championship pedigree speaks for itself. However, his offense does Parker no favors what so ever. He is playing totally out of position, and K seems to have no interest in trying to maximize his skills in his offense. There are way too many possessions that are centered around inferior players like Rasheed Suilamon and Quinn Cook dribbling around and taking bad shots. Why doesn’t he just feed it to Parker and Hood all day? You have arguably the best player in the country, and a 2nd or 3rd team All American to go with him, what are you doing wasting so many offensive chances on those guys? Parker stands in the corner in tons of set. He isn’t involved in basically any plays where he is in the post. 

His statistically are very good for a college freshman, but I honestly think they would be even better if he was playing in a system that allowed him to fully display his scoring ability. And he isn’t the only one, the same can absolutely be said about both Andrew Wiggins and Julius Randle. I just think we might wanna hold up on thinking this draft class is overrated, when a lot of these guys are being marginalized by "college hoops". 

 

 

 

[Hector_Reyes_8Participant]

One of the reasons I hate the NCAA is because their ” developing the players ” thing is absolute bull. Some players are mishandled for whatever reason, even though the NCAA is “supposed” to be for player development.

[theprophetParticipant]

hate is a strong word. a lot of ncaa teams are not great at developing players, but a lot are. and there are also a lot of young athletes who leave college too early to develop into where they could have been to maximize more of their potential. aau screws up player development more than the ncaa does with that hero ball scene.

[McDunkin]

I agree with you prophet.

Danny Mannings work with big men is a perfect example of what the NCAA can do for your development if you are willing to stick around.

[McDunkin]

I agree with you prophet.

Danny Mannings work with big men is a perfect example of what the NCAA can do for your development if you are willing to stick around.

[theprophetParticipant]

hate is a strong word. a lot of ncaa teams are not great at developing players, but a lot are. and there are also a lot of young athletes who leave college too early to develop into where they could have been to maximize more of their potential. aau screws up player development more than the ncaa does with that hero ball scene.

[Hector_Reyes_8Participant]

One of the reasons I hate the NCAA is because their ” developing the players ” thing is absolute bull. Some players are mishandled for whatever reason, even though the NCAA is “supposed” to be for player development.

[theprophetParticipant]

while i agree with most of what you say here, i would also like to add that you are overlooking something. it’s not necessarily true that parker and coach k aren’t the best fit. they could be. i would say it’s more on the roster. coach k is one of the best coaches out there period! on any level. he has coached olympic star egos with success. he’s coached less talented teams with success. he coached a similar prospect in grant hill with success. what’s missing here is ultimately first and foremost coach k wants all his athletes to grow up to be good successful citizens. secondly he wants to win. jabari parker’s stat line isn’t on top. duke’s best chance to win with the team they have and lack of quality bigs is to put parker where he is often, because the smaller positions on that team are filled with more skilled players. maybe duke should have recruited another big. maybe, and just maybe parker and duke are not the best fit, but i wouldn’t say coach k and parker don’t really match. this draft class isn’t the best, but it’s pretty darn good. you are right about hold the phone on the overrated accusations.

[theprophetParticipant]

while i agree with most of what you say here, i would also like to add that you are overlooking something. it’s not necessarily true that parker and coach k aren’t the best fit. they could be. i would say it’s more on the roster. coach k is one of the best coaches out there period! on any level. he has coached olympic star egos with success. he’s coached less talented teams with success. he coached a similar prospect in grant hill with success. what’s missing here is ultimately first and foremost coach k wants all his athletes to grow up to be good successful citizens. secondly he wants to win. jabari parker’s stat line isn’t on top. duke’s best chance to win with the team they have and lack of quality bigs is to put parker where he is often, because the smaller positions on that team are filled with more skilled players. maybe duke should have recruited another big. maybe, and just maybe parker and duke are not the best fit, but i wouldn’t say coach k and parker don’t really match. this draft class isn’t the best, but it’s pretty darn good. you are right about hold the phone on the overrated accusations.

[DolanCareParticipant]

 In a perfect world, Duke would have a player who could handle big minutes at the 5. This would put Jabari at the 4 and Hood at the 3…. A scary team to say the least. Unfortunatley, that’s not the case. I trust Coach K’s judgement to not start Marshall Plumee- guess he’s not ready. 

[DolanCareParticipant]

 In a perfect world, Duke would have a player who could handle big minutes at the 5. This would put Jabari at the 4 and Hood at the 3…. A scary team to say the least. Unfortunatley, that’s not the case. I trust Coach K’s judgement to not start Marshall Plumee- guess he’s not ready. 

[Ghost01Participant]

 I completely agree with all questioning Duke’s roster.

But, that still isn’t an excuse for how much he blatantly ignores Parker’s talent late in close games. Even if Parker has to play the 4, offensively, it shouldn’t matter. He can still have the ball in his hands, he can still be setting ball screens and coming off.

And I don’t doubt Coach K’s greatness, but that still doesn’t mean I think he is using Parker the best he could be. 

 

 

[Ghost01Participant]

 I completely agree with all questioning Duke’s roster.

But, that still isn’t an excuse for how much he blatantly ignores Parker’s talent late in close games. Even if Parker has to play the 4, offensively, it shouldn’t matter. He can still have the ball in his hands, he can still be setting ball screens and coming off.

And I don’t doubt Coach K’s greatness, but that still doesn’t mean I think he is using Parker the best he could be. 

 

 

[SpartanGloryParticipant]

 If you really want to question the decisions that the best coach in college basketball is making regarding his team, be my guest. Just remember that Parker is in the running for player of the year, a top 3 pick in the draft, and propelling an otherwise mediocre team towards the tournament.

[SpartanGloryParticipant]

 If you really want to question the decisions that the best coach in college basketball is making regarding his team, be my guest. Just remember that Parker is in the running for player of the year, a top 3 pick in the draft, and propelling an otherwise mediocre team towards the tournament.

[Scott42444Participant]

 I think that Parker is one of those prospects that IS developing by playing to some of his weaknesses.  The truly elite players strengthen their less elite traits too become a complete player.  Jabari is one of those guys that WANTS to expand his skill set and he is learning some of the nuances in a system at Duke that translates to the pros.  If he wants to go back to his comfort zone, he can stick around another year and play with a legitimate center in Okafor and Tyus will be a better distributor for both young bigs.  I don’t think any college coach, coach K is no exception, should just cater to a One and Done prospect.  Ever.  Calipari does it, and does it well, but that isn’t what someone goes to Duke for.  Out of all the big time college coaches he is probably the least amenable to milk a one year only talent.

[Scott42444Participant]

 I think that Parker is one of those prospects that IS developing by playing to some of his weaknesses.  The truly elite players strengthen their less elite traits too become a complete player.  Jabari is one of those guys that WANTS to expand his skill set and he is learning some of the nuances in a system at Duke that translates to the pros.  If he wants to go back to his comfort zone, he can stick around another year and play with a legitimate center in Okafor and Tyus will be a better distributor for both young bigs.  I don’t think any college coach, coach K is no exception, should just cater to a One and Done prospect.  Ever.  Calipari does it, and does it well, but that isn’t what someone goes to Duke for.  Out of all the big time college coaches he is probably the least amenable to milk a one year only talent.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

714 is the number of shots taken by Jabari Parker and Rodney Hood, 1609 is the number Duke has taken as a team. That is 44.4% of the shots Duke has taken this season, not accounting for the fact that they do not play the entire game. Have to say, I believe Duke has done a pretty damn fair job of running their offense through them. 35.2 out of 80 points per game come from them. What more do you really expect?

What would you do differently? Stick him down low and carve out post position. Because he absolutely could be doing so and I am sure Coach K would be ecstatic if it worked. Problem is, he is not exactly a C and does not carve out the space to do so. Plus, he plays next to Amile Jefferson and Marshall Plumlee, no real space their. Chances are, if he is not getting the ball in the post, it is more because of Parker than Krzyzewski.

Still think Parker starts a lot of his possessions close to the basket, in line with his position. It is hard to get post touches at the end of games. Especially against a zone defense in college, where they tend to have guys camped in the key or close by for help. So, I see a pointing to a legendary college coach not doing his job as well as possible without any real suggestion of WAYS for this to be done better. It just seems like getting post looks is supposed to be easy, it is not. When you have a lot of big, strong athletes, it is hard to get looks near the basket.

Joel Embiid gets 6 shots per game. Dwight Howard has never averaged more than 13. Not always easy to get guys post touches. LeBron James took years to establish himself as a post player, with his added strength and ability down low. Even still, not the most prevalent part of his offensive game.

Parker maybe could be putting up more points or shots on a different team, but his usage % is really high and he/Hood have absolutely been the center point of Duke’s offense. I think people had ridiculous expectations for Parker, Randle and Wiggins, who have all been great. All of them are among the favorite for player of the year in their respective conferences (with Parker and Wiggins in my mind the absolute front runners). It is easy to criticize a coach, but chances are just as much is on the player. They have an opportunity to try and create these opportunities, especially if they benefit the team.

Just know that Jabari’s usage is 32.61%, barely less than Durant’s 33.23% at Texas and more than Carmelo Anthony’s 29.27% at Syracuse. He has been doing great, getting a lot of touches near the basket, where he has taken almost 30% of shots near the basket for Duke. Syracuse is a tough team to beat near the basket, the 2-3 will do that. These freshman on the whole have lived up to my expectations. With Parker having the best freshman season and being the largest part of his offense. If people feel this class is overrated, that is on them, but these guys have lived up to the hype as far as I am concerned. Three leading scorers on teams all ranked within the top 17, KU and Duke at 5/6. Nothing wrong with that.

[Ghost01Participant]

 I mean more situationally. 

I don’t think K’s offense is beneficial to Parker. I know he’s taken a lot of shots, I know he gets the ball a lot. But the offense they run in the half court does not help that game. That is why Parker seems like a ball hog at times because when he does touch the ball he tends to shoot it more.

The last 2 games have been brutal in regards of this too. And I don’t want to hear and of that crap about it being "hard to get touches"…he can set screens to free himself up, he can take the ball on the perimeter and go around his man. Just because he is posting up out of necessity for Duke does not mean he needs to post up by any stretch.

I’m not doubting any of the stats nor do I think he hasn’t shot the ball enough. And I’m also not doubting earlier in the year it was better. But as some one who watches most of Duke’s games, the offensive is just mind bogglingly dumb at times. Cook and Suilamon are guys who can shoot, so why don’t they play off the ball more?

Bottom line is this, if you watch Duke’s last two games and tell me that they are doing a good job of getting him involved, be my guest. But I haven’t seen it. Is my opinion skewed on recent games? Sure, but who’s isn’t a little bit. And telling me Joel Embiid takes 6 shots per game couldn’t be less relevant. All it does is bring up questions of if we are overrating how good he can be when we haven’t even seen him make a high volume of offensive plays. 

 

 

 

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

So it is not like he is scheming not to get him the ball. Maybe, just maybe, Parker was not being aggressive at the end of the North Carolina game. They defended him well and he was not getting the ball in spots they wanted to. Coach K sure as hell does not want to force feed Sulaimon and Cook. It is not as easy to play off isolation in college as it is in the NBA. The game is not as spread out. Plus, I feel you vastly overrate how effective isolation play is.

What I find interesting is you want the ball in Parker’s hands, and in the post? Just seems like wishful thinking as opposed to practical basketball. Give my an example of an offense that exists that would best utilize Parker? Just don’t think it is as easy as running off pick and rolls all game. Not to mention, doubt Coach K is stopping him from setting screens to free himself.

The point I am trying to make with Embiid and Howard, who are both prominently guys who get post touches, is that they have not found ways to get themselves a lot of shots. I agree that Embiid has not gotten a high amount of offensive plays run for him is at least somewhat concerning. However, he is huge and he has been pretty damn good at getting post position. It is easier to get him the ball close to the basket due to his size.

Parker is big and strong, but it is not as easy as him just standing next to the basket, haven’t seen him fighting down there too often. Wiggins has had even more trouble, you have to fight and carve out a space for them to get you the ball. If Parker is in the corner, maybe HE isn’t being aggressive and it is not just a part of the offense. He has to fight to get the ball and demand it. That is what it comes down to. A lot of blaming the coach, but I think the coach wants his best player to get the ball, it is up to him to get open and demand it at the end of the game. Think he didn’t do that at North Carolina and than finally did near the end of Cuse, where he played a great game all things considered.

[Ghost01Participant]

 If your argument is that he is sitting in the corner by choice, and that Duke doesn’t run set plays in the halfcourt, then I have no idea what you are watching.

THEY RUN PLAYS. THE PLAYS DON’T INCLUDE HIM DOING ANYTHING. THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM BEING AGGRESSIVE.

If you aren’t a PG, you can’t be aggressive if the ball isn’t passed to you. You apparently want Parker to ignore what the play/set is, and just run up to the guy dribbling the ball and ask for it. I don’t think that is how it works….

[Ghost01Participant]

 If your argument is that he is sitting in the corner by choice, and that Duke doesn’t run set plays in the halfcourt, then I have no idea what you are watching.

THEY RUN PLAYS. THE PLAYS DON’T INCLUDE HIM DOING ANYTHING. THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HIM BEING AGGRESSIVE.

If you aren’t a PG, you can’t be aggressive if the ball isn’t passed to you. You apparently want Parker to ignore what the play/set is, and just run up to the guy dribbling the ball and ask for it. I don’t think that is how it works….

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

So you are saying that during these plays, they have absolutely no will or want to get the ball to Jabari Parker? That Coach K says to him, "Jabari, just stand in the corner. That way, we can have Cook and Sulaimon get some good shots". Come, the hell, on. Dude, who is being naive with that one? You see the end of Syracuse? They got him a great high post look when he LOOKED to get open. That was a play for him, in a good spot, when the game was on the line.

A player absolutely can be agressive in creating offense for themselves without the ball. They can move and create spacing, they can set screens or actively look to get the ball. Standing in the corner is not Parker’s only option on these plays, I would bank on that. It is true that you can’t be aggressive if you do not get a pass, but their are ways to be aggressive in TRYING to get the pass.

That is what I am saying and you apparently think Duke tries to avoid doing. Personally, think it is not the case and that Parker has to take action as well. I guarantee you Mike Krzyzewski wants the ball in Parker’s hands, he is not running plays for the other guys nearly as much as he is for Parker or Hood.  My guess is you are using two games and a number of possessions in those games to characterize a constant. Your eye test has failed you. He was NOT aggressive at the end of North Carolina. It was on him as much as Duke’s guards. Against Cuse, much more aggressive in the end, paid off greatly.

The guy has gotten a ton of shots and possessions. Despite your thoughts on the contrary, think he gets a ton of plays called for him and has indeed tended to get the ball in pretty nice situations, much closer to the basket than a wing normally would get the ball. Is this what will happen in the NBA? Probably not, but it has worked quite well in college. Man, you claim Wiggins "drifts" and is not aggressive, than whine that they do not call enough plays for Parker? Sounds like a bit of a double standard, man.

Sounds like you just watched two games, think Jabari Parker should be getting video game numbers and think that Duke is trying to prevent him from doing so. They definitely get he and Hood the most shots and run plays for them. An offense is set up for many different situations, not just saying "Lets get our fourth option shots". Basketball is a team game, dude, other people take shots. Parker gets a lot of them and if you are not happy with how they have run the offense for the two games you decided to try and pay attention to, just realize that the norm is them running their offense around their two best players.

Just because you think he should get the ball every time does not mean that he does not need to TRY and get the ball every time at the end of the game. "Takeover mentality" comes with being aggressive whether you are the PG or not. Just know that when Parker has indeed tried to run the point forward spot, it is not like he hasn’t made mistakes. He turned the ball over quite a bit in the NC and Cuse games, plus at NC he was not aggressive enough in the 2nd half. They had long portions of time where he could have tried to get open or get in good position for a shot. Maybe even, as you said, by setting screens. You can blame it on the system or set, just know that their are always options in every one and I am sure that Parker is the one they are usually trying to get the shot for.

I think being part of a winning team and learning to play through adversity is just as important as him getting as many shots as possible. His being at Duke is a good thing and his playing out of position was something he knew he was going to do. If anything, it has been imperative with him getting touches closer to the basket. Also, getting 14 shots per game isn’t bad. Getting more than that, if you want good shots, means working for it. That is where the conditioning and even aggression comes in. You just are making it sound like he can get anything anytime he wants and while he is an extremely talented offensive player, it has not seemed to be the case.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

So you are saying that during these plays, they have absolutely no will or want to get the ball to Jabari Parker? That Coach K says to him, "Jabari, just stand in the corner. That way, we can have Cook and Sulaimon get some good shots". Come, the hell, on. Dude, who is being naive with that one? You see the end of Syracuse? They got him a great high post look when he LOOKED to get open. That was a play for him, in a good spot, when the game was on the line.

A player absolutely can be agressive in creating offense for themselves without the ball. They can move and create spacing, they can set screens or actively look to get the ball. Standing in the corner is not Parker’s only option on these plays, I would bank on that. It is true that you can’t be aggressive if you do not get a pass, but their are ways to be aggressive in TRYING to get the pass.

That is what I am saying and you apparently think Duke tries to avoid doing. Personally, think it is not the case and that Parker has to take action as well. I guarantee you Mike Krzyzewski wants the ball in Parker’s hands, he is not running plays for the other guys nearly as much as he is for Parker or Hood.  My guess is you are using two games and a number of possessions in those games to characterize a constant. Your eye test has failed you. He was NOT aggressive at the end of North Carolina. It was on him as much as Duke’s guards. Against Cuse, much more aggressive in the end, paid off greatly.

The guy has gotten a ton of shots and possessions. Despite your thoughts on the contrary, think he gets a ton of plays called for him and has indeed tended to get the ball in pretty nice situations, much closer to the basket than a wing normally would get the ball. Is this what will happen in the NBA? Probably not, but it has worked quite well in college. Man, you claim Wiggins "drifts" and is not aggressive, than whine that they do not call enough plays for Parker? Sounds like a bit of a double standard, man.

Sounds like you just watched two games, think Jabari Parker should be getting video game numbers and think that Duke is trying to prevent him from doing so. They definitely get he and Hood the most shots and run plays for them. An offense is set up for many different situations, not just saying "Lets get our fourth option shots". Basketball is a team game, dude, other people take shots. Parker gets a lot of them and if you are not happy with how they have run the offense for the two games you decided to try and pay attention to, just realize that the norm is them running their offense around their two best players.

Just because you think he should get the ball every time does not mean that he does not need to TRY and get the ball every time at the end of the game. "Takeover mentality" comes with being aggressive whether you are the PG or not. Just know that when Parker has indeed tried to run the point forward spot, it is not like he hasn’t made mistakes. He turned the ball over quite a bit in the NC and Cuse games, plus at NC he was not aggressive enough in the 2nd half. They had long portions of time where he could have tried to get open or get in good position for a shot. Maybe even, as you said, by setting screens. You can blame it on the system or set, just know that their are always options in every one and I am sure that Parker is the one they are usually trying to get the shot for.

I think being part of a winning team and learning to play through adversity is just as important as him getting as many shots as possible. His being at Duke is a good thing and his playing out of position was something he knew he was going to do. If anything, it has been imperative with him getting touches closer to the basket. Also, getting 14 shots per game isn’t bad. Getting more than that, if you want good shots, means working for it. That is where the conditioning and even aggression comes in. You just are making it sound like he can get anything anytime he wants and while he is an extremely talented offensive player, it has not seemed to be the case.

[Ghost01Participant]

 

 

 

 

I don’t believe that the offense Duke runs helps Jabari Parker in terms of what he will do on an NBA court. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t get shots, or that they don’t pass him the ball, or that he isn’t getting opportunities.

 

When I look at the offense they run, and how he plays in the offense, I don’t believe that is anything like what he will look like in a pro offense. As much as you want to say I overrate isolation, the bottom line is he is an ISO/PNR style player. Which are two things that are PROMINENT in the NBA, and not so prominent in his college system. If you want to argue all day about usage and how many shots he takes and etc, that is fine. I am not arguing any of those things. What I will argue is that when I watch Duke play, I would bet that it looks absolutely nothing like how the NBA team who picks him will use him. He has an ability to atrack the rim from the perimeter that the entire way they run their offense doesn’t allow him to do very often. 

 

I’m also not saying Duke SHOULD be doing anything differently to achieve team success. I just don’t understand why you would want the ball in some of those other players hands so often. But I know that there goal isn’t to project Parker’s NBA talents, I was simply pointing out that the way they play isn’t advantageous to the way he will play. I watched him play a lot in high school, and you see glimpses of it all the time.

 

 

[Ghost01Participant]

 

 

 

 

I don’t believe that the offense Duke runs helps Jabari Parker in terms of what he will do on an NBA court. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t get shots, or that they don’t pass him the ball, or that he isn’t getting opportunities.

 

When I look at the offense they run, and how he plays in the offense, I don’t believe that is anything like what he will look like in a pro offense. As much as you want to say I overrate isolation, the bottom line is he is an ISO/PNR style player. Which are two things that are PROMINENT in the NBA, and not so prominent in his college system. If you want to argue all day about usage and how many shots he takes and etc, that is fine. I am not arguing any of those things. What I will argue is that when I watch Duke play, I would bet that it looks absolutely nothing like how the NBA team who picks him will use him. He has an ability to atrack the rim from the perimeter that the entire way they run their offense doesn’t allow him to do very often. 

 

I’m also not saying Duke SHOULD be doing anything differently to achieve team success. I just don’t understand why you would want the ball in some of those other players hands so often. But I know that there goal isn’t to project Parker’s NBA talents, I was simply pointing out that the way they play isn’t advantageous to the way he will play. I watched him play a lot in high school, and you see glimpses of it all the time.

 

 

[Ghost01Participant]

But I forgot, we are only allowed to talk about glimpses in regards to Embiid or Wiggins. For Parker it’s all about production and that’s it because he’s "near his ceiling" at 19.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

http://nbadraft.net/forum/wiggins-vs-parker-athleticism

See the word, "ceiling" in anything I wrote there. If you are directing something at me, which is what I believe you were trying to do, than the whole "near his ceiling" thing was not my stance. Ultimately, I agree that Jabari is probably not playing where he would be in a NBA setting. What you were saying, at least in the beginning, is he should be getting more post touches and things to benefit him as a college player. Because, in the NBA, I doubt he is immediately going down to the low block.

Jabari absolutely knew what he was getting into when he committed to Duke. Their were no real big men in his HS class interested in going to Duke and they only brought back Marshall Plumlee. You kind of add two and two, than realize you are probably going to be a 4/5. What I also believe is that while he is not getting the exact sets that might be run for him in the NBA, he is absolutely learning things and improving as a basketball player. I even recall you saying he could probably shift to 4 some in the NBA, which I agree with, so he is getting that.

As much as people reject the notion that these guys "have to go to college", they get a valuable year of playing against solid competition, getting into better condition and preparing to contribute at the NBA level if they only intend to play a year. Think that Jabari is learning to play off of the ball more and learning what it takes to create opportunities for himself off of the ball in a half court setting. Their may be systems or teams that were more NBA oriented, however I think he is learning a lot of valuable things at Duke while also getting a lot of opportunities as the center of their offense.

I still like Wiggins more as a NBA prospect right now and see Embiid having considerable upside. So, if you have an issue with that, that is OK. Just did not come up with the "near his ceiling" theory. You have your opinion, I have mine. My main issue with your post was the supposed freezing out of Parker, which you may have witnessed in the NC/Cuse game, but is part his doing and definitely not prevalent in the offense.

When your major concern about Andrew Wiggins is "drifting", not realizing in these situations Parker might be doing the same. Unless you can point to me his being open for scoring opportunities that Duke missed on numerous occasions, one could think that might be the case. Either way, these are both developing basketball prospects and even if Parker is further developed, it does not make him perfect. I think he has more development left than you believe and his "standing in the corner" may be part of a play, but I doubt he was without will to move and try to get himself a good shot opportunity. Especially in a close game.

Just seemed like a double standard. I know you mentioned Randle and Wiggins "not being better utilized", but I think the exact same thing in there case. It is up to them to get those opportunities, get open and demand the ball in a close game. The PG could be looking them off, who knows? But my guess is, the coach is not telling them to. It is up to Parker, Wiggins and Randle to demand the ball in those situations, it is way too easy to just blame the system. You went the "blame the coach" route in this post and with Wiggins you go the "blame the player" route. Am trying to hold both players equally accountable.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

http://nbadraft.net/forum/wiggins-vs-parker-athleticism

See the word, "ceiling" in anything I wrote there. If you are directing something at me, which is what I believe you were trying to do, than the whole "near his ceiling" thing was not my stance. Ultimately, I agree that Jabari is probably not playing where he would be in a NBA setting. What you were saying, at least in the beginning, is he should be getting more post touches and things to benefit him as a college player. Because, in the NBA, I doubt he is immediately going down to the low block.

Jabari absolutely knew what he was getting into when he committed to Duke. Their were no real big men in his HS class interested in going to Duke and they only brought back Marshall Plumlee. You kind of add two and two, than realize you are probably going to be a 4/5. What I also believe is that while he is not getting the exact sets that might be run for him in the NBA, he is absolutely learning things and improving as a basketball player. I even recall you saying he could probably shift to 4 some in the NBA, which I agree with, so he is getting that.

As much as people reject the notion that these guys "have to go to college", they get a valuable year of playing against solid competition, getting into better condition and preparing to contribute at the NBA level if they only intend to play a year. Think that Jabari is learning to play off of the ball more and learning what it takes to create opportunities for himself off of the ball in a half court setting. Their may be systems or teams that were more NBA oriented, however I think he is learning a lot of valuable things at Duke while also getting a lot of opportunities as the center of their offense.

I still like Wiggins more as a NBA prospect right now and see Embiid having considerable upside. So, if you have an issue with that, that is OK. Just did not come up with the "near his ceiling" theory. You have your opinion, I have mine. My main issue with your post was the supposed freezing out of Parker, which you may have witnessed in the NC/Cuse game, but is part his doing and definitely not prevalent in the offense.

When your major concern about Andrew Wiggins is "drifting", not realizing in these situations Parker might be doing the same. Unless you can point to me his being open for scoring opportunities that Duke missed on numerous occasions, one could think that might be the case. Either way, these are both developing basketball prospects and even if Parker is further developed, it does not make him perfect. I think he has more development left than you believe and his "standing in the corner" may be part of a play, but I doubt he was without will to move and try to get himself a good shot opportunity. Especially in a close game.

Just seemed like a double standard. I know you mentioned Randle and Wiggins "not being better utilized", but I think the exact same thing in there case. It is up to them to get those opportunities, get open and demand the ball in a close game. The PG could be looking them off, who knows? But my guess is, the coach is not telling them to. It is up to Parker, Wiggins and Randle to demand the ball in those situations, it is way too easy to just blame the system. You went the "blame the coach" route in this post and with Wiggins you go the "blame the player" route. Am trying to hold both players equally accountable.

[Ghost01Participant]

But I forgot, we are only allowed to talk about glimpses in regards to Embiid or Wiggins. For Parker it’s all about production and that’s it because he’s "near his ceiling" at 19.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

So it is not like he is scheming not to get him the ball. Maybe, just maybe, Parker was not being aggressive at the end of the North Carolina game. They defended him well and he was not getting the ball in spots they wanted to. Coach K sure as hell does not want to force feed Sulaimon and Cook. It is not as easy to play off isolation in college as it is in the NBA. The game is not as spread out. Plus, I feel you vastly overrate how effective isolation play is.

What I find interesting is you want the ball in Parker’s hands, and in the post? Just seems like wishful thinking as opposed to practical basketball. Give my an example of an offense that exists that would best utilize Parker? Just don’t think it is as easy as running off pick and rolls all game. Not to mention, doubt Coach K is stopping him from setting screens to free himself.

The point I am trying to make with Embiid and Howard, who are both prominently guys who get post touches, is that they have not found ways to get themselves a lot of shots. I agree that Embiid has not gotten a high amount of offensive plays run for him is at least somewhat concerning. However, he is huge and he has been pretty damn good at getting post position. It is easier to get him the ball close to the basket due to his size.

Parker is big and strong, but it is not as easy as him just standing next to the basket, haven’t seen him fighting down there too often. Wiggins has had even more trouble, you have to fight and carve out a space for them to get you the ball. If Parker is in the corner, maybe HE isn’t being aggressive and it is not just a part of the offense. He has to fight to get the ball and demand it. That is what it comes down to. A lot of blaming the coach, but I think the coach wants his best player to get the ball, it is up to him to get open and demand it at the end of the game. Think he didn’t do that at North Carolina and than finally did near the end of Cuse, where he played a great game all things considered.

[Ghost01Participant]

 I mean more situationally. 

I don’t think K’s offense is beneficial to Parker. I know he’s taken a lot of shots, I know he gets the ball a lot. But the offense they run in the half court does not help that game. That is why Parker seems like a ball hog at times because when he does touch the ball he tends to shoot it more.

The last 2 games have been brutal in regards of this too. And I don’t want to hear and of that crap about it being "hard to get touches"…he can set screens to free himself up, he can take the ball on the perimeter and go around his man. Just because he is posting up out of necessity for Duke does not mean he needs to post up by any stretch.

I’m not doubting any of the stats nor do I think he hasn’t shot the ball enough. And I’m also not doubting earlier in the year it was better. But as some one who watches most of Duke’s games, the offensive is just mind bogglingly dumb at times. Cook and Suilamon are guys who can shoot, so why don’t they play off the ball more?

Bottom line is this, if you watch Duke’s last two games and tell me that they are doing a good job of getting him involved, be my guest. But I haven’t seen it. Is my opinion skewed on recent games? Sure, but who’s isn’t a little bit. And telling me Joel Embiid takes 6 shots per game couldn’t be less relevant. All it does is bring up questions of if we are overrating how good he can be when we haven’t even seen him make a high volume of offensive plays. 

 

 

 

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

714 is the number of shots taken by Jabari Parker and Rodney Hood, 1609 is the number Duke has taken as a team. That is 44.4% of the shots Duke has taken this season, not accounting for the fact that they do not play the entire game. Have to say, I believe Duke has done a pretty damn fair job of running their offense through them. 35.2 out of 80 points per game come from them. What more do you really expect?

What would you do differently? Stick him down low and carve out post position. Because he absolutely could be doing so and I am sure Coach K would be ecstatic if it worked. Problem is, he is not exactly a C and does not carve out the space to do so. Plus, he plays next to Amile Jefferson and Marshall Plumlee, no real space their. Chances are, if he is not getting the ball in the post, it is more because of Parker than Krzyzewski.

Still think Parker starts a lot of his possessions close to the basket, in line with his position. It is hard to get post touches at the end of games. Especially against a zone defense in college, where they tend to have guys camped in the key or close by for help. So, I see a pointing to a legendary college coach not doing his job as well as possible without any real suggestion of WAYS for this to be done better. It just seems like getting post looks is supposed to be easy, it is not. When you have a lot of big, strong athletes, it is hard to get looks near the basket.

Joel Embiid gets 6 shots per game. Dwight Howard has never averaged more than 13. Not always easy to get guys post touches. LeBron James took years to establish himself as a post player, with his added strength and ability down low. Even still, not the most prevalent part of his offensive game.

Parker maybe could be putting up more points or shots on a different team, but his usage % is really high and he/Hood have absolutely been the center point of Duke’s offense. I think people had ridiculous expectations for Parker, Randle and Wiggins, who have all been great. All of them are among the favorite for player of the year in their respective conferences (with Parker and Wiggins in my mind the absolute front runners). It is easy to criticize a coach, but chances are just as much is on the player. They have an opportunity to try and create these opportunities, especially if they benefit the team.

Just know that Jabari’s usage is 32.61%, barely less than Durant’s 33.23% at Texas and more than Carmelo Anthony’s 29.27% at Syracuse. He has been doing great, getting a lot of touches near the basket, where he has taken almost 30% of shots near the basket for Duke. Syracuse is a tough team to beat near the basket, the 2-3 will do that. These freshman on the whole have lived up to my expectations. With Parker having the best freshman season and being the largest part of his offense. If people feel this class is overrated, that is on them, but these guys have lived up to the hype as far as I am concerned. Three leading scorers on teams all ranked within the top 17, KU and Duke at 5/6. Nothing wrong with that.

[jmarg25Participant]

 I’ve watched a couple of Duke games and I don’t feel the same way. I saw Parker get the ball many times, driving to the hoop whenever an inferior player guarded him. Like mikeyvthedon said above, Parker and Hood take 44% of Duke’s shots. Also, I think Sulaimon and Cook are great players capable of making an All American team who deserve to take a good amount of shots. Not to mention Thornton and Dawkins who are quality perimeter shooters. 

[jmarg25Participant]

 I’ve watched a couple of Duke games and I don’t feel the same way. I saw Parker get the ball many times, driving to the hoop whenever an inferior player guarded him. Like mikeyvthedon said above, Parker and Hood take 44% of Duke’s shots. Also, I think Sulaimon and Cook are great players capable of making an All American team who deserve to take a good amount of shots. Not to mention Thornton and Dawkins who are quality perimeter shooters. 

[TarHeelRavenParticipant]

 You think Quinn cook is.a possible all American?  Perhaps Suleiman, but Quinn cook?  Really?????

 

[Ghost01Participant]

 Pretty sure I was referring to Hood. 

[Ghost01Participant]

 Pretty sure I was referring to Hood. 

[TarHeelRavenParticipant]

 You think Quinn cook is.a possible all American?  Perhaps Suleiman, but Quinn cook?  Really?????

 

[SwaggyVCParticipant]

 I dont think this is worth getting angry about… Parker has played well out of position. He has played out of position do to Duke lack of big men. But he hasnt dominated, not that people thought he would. He can play though.

[SwaggyVCParticipant]

 I dont think this is worth getting angry about… Parker has played well out of position. He has played out of position do to Duke lack of big men. But he hasnt dominated, not that people thought he would. He can play though.

[SpaceghostParticipant]

Coach K and all the rest of the Good/Great college coaches are coaching for their wins and losses. NCAA is not a farm league or for player Development like baseball has the minors. J. Parker is playing out of position because it best benfits DUKE to have him on the floor. The indiviual work Jabrari needs to improve his skills on the professional level wont come from Coach K. College basketball has always been about the name on the FRONT of the jersey not the name on the back.(Hence why they wont ever get paid- Legally)  BY the WAY i am a  DUKE hater and TARHEEL fan. With that said i am a Jabari parker fan and you wont see his entire skill set until he gets to the NBA. I think the zone defenses in some cases take away from jabari’s offsensive mindset, and his conditioning is a small issue but  him banging with 4’s and 5’s also is draining.  Damn im glad he going pro.. Him and Jalil Okafor no fair.

[SpaceghostParticipant]

Coach K and all the rest of the Good/Great college coaches are coaching for their wins and losses. NCAA is not a farm league or for player Development like baseball has the minors. J. Parker is playing out of position because it best benfits DUKE to have him on the floor. The indiviual work Jabrari needs to improve his skills on the professional level wont come from Coach K. College basketball has always been about the name on the FRONT of the jersey not the name on the back.(Hence why they wont ever get paid- Legally)  BY the WAY i am a  DUKE hater and TARHEEL fan. With that said i am a Jabari parker fan and you wont see his entire skill set until he gets to the NBA. I think the zone defenses in some cases take away from jabari’s offsensive mindset, and his conditioning is a small issue but  him banging with 4’s and 5’s also is draining.  Damn im glad he going pro.. Him and Jalil Okafor no fair.

[lalailaParticipant]

you said you don’t want to compare him to any other prospect..but there is no way not to throw Andrew Wiggins there..

yes I have seen Jabari standing and calling for a ball neear to corner 3 but when you watch it more, he really gets enough touches for a player who is a freshman in MR.Coach K system and is basically scorer and nothing but scorer(passing really looks like a lost arc for Jabari so far, he was supposed to be really really good one there)

 

he avg 14shots per game and when you watch Kansas games they shares the ball all the time, it isn’t about one or two stars at all, pretty usually you see Andrew catch and pass the ball other direction or trying to create something quickly, no ball stopping.. and he takes something above 11shots only plys avg more assists

 

so it’s OK for Jabari situation..it’s  more because he plays 4 than they are not giving him enough oppurtunities 

[lalailaParticipant]

you said you don’t want to compare him to any other prospect..but there is no way not to throw Andrew Wiggins there..

yes I have seen Jabari standing and calling for a ball neear to corner 3 but when you watch it more, he really gets enough touches for a player who is a freshman in MR.Coach K system and is basically scorer and nothing but scorer(passing really looks like a lost arc for Jabari so far, he was supposed to be really really good one there)

 

he avg 14shots per game and when you watch Kansas games they shares the ball all the time, it isn’t about one or two stars at all, pretty usually you see Andrew catch and pass the ball other direction or trying to create something quickly, no ball stopping.. and he takes something above 11shots only plys avg more assists

 

so it’s OK for Jabari situation..it’s  more because he plays 4 than they are not giving him enough oppurtunities 

[tbest23Participant]

I think Coach Konsonants has done a pretty good job involving him in their scheme. He understands that it’s about the team not the individual. Parker seems to be what he’s going to be at this point. He actually reminds me in some ways of a young Carmelo. I think Carmelo isn’t quite the shooter Parker seems to be but both are; or will be, volume shooters and scorers. Perhaps Coach Konsonants tries to limit his involvement on offense to a degree since his defense needs lots of work. If he’s carrying the load too much on one end, then he’s a liability on the other end. Either way, I trust his coach to make him a better player and utilize his strengths. Rock Chalk!

[tbest23Participant]

I think Coach Konsonants has done a pretty good job involving him in their scheme. He understands that it’s about the team not the individual. Parker seems to be what he’s going to be at this point. He actually reminds me in some ways of a young Carmelo. I think Carmelo isn’t quite the shooter Parker seems to be but both are; or will be, volume shooters and scorers. Perhaps Coach Konsonants tries to limit his involvement on offense to a degree since his defense needs lots of work. If he’s carrying the load too much on one end, then he’s a liability on the other end. Either way, I trust his coach to make him a better player and utilize his strengths. Rock Chalk!

[SpacegrassParticipant]

 I like to rip on K but I think he has used Parker very well especially offensively.  I wish Roy had used Barnes at PF more in college.  I actually think Parker would struggle more in a true 2 big man system playing the SF with the lane clogged.  If he is playing SF with two true big men his footspeed would be average in that matchup compared to his defender in more instances.  Only issue I have with Duke is not having a legit big man this year to play along side Hood and Parker so they don’t have as much interior defensive responsibility.  This Jefferson/Hairston/Plumlee center by committee is gonna get them beat.

[SpacegrassParticipant]

 I like to rip on K but I think he has used Parker very well especially offensively.  I wish Roy had used Barnes at PF more in college.  I actually think Parker would struggle more in a true 2 big man system playing the SF with the lane clogged.  If he is playing SF with two true big men his footspeed would be average in that matchup compared to his defender in more instances.  Only issue I have with Duke is not having a legit big man this year to play along side Hood and Parker so they don’t have as much interior defensive responsibility.  This Jefferson/Hairston/Plumlee center by committee is gonna get them beat.

[tuck243Participant]

I totally disagree with you.  I read your post 3 times trying to figure out what you see but I just don’t get it.   Honestly, Coach K has change his offensively philosophy in recent years that I feel people can no longer say he don’t allow his players to be great.  He allowed Kyrie and Austin to do damn near whatever they want offensively.  I agree that Cook take stupid shots and don’t play through Jabari or Hood at times, but I think that’s on Cook than Coach K.   You want Coach K to pull him out when he take a bad shot?  LOL…  That offense is similar to a fast pace offense that the Knicks (suppose to) play.  If you got a good look take it, then get back on D.  When it’s time to slow down the ball then go to your go to player.  Which Cook does, do remember Cook is a McDonald’s All-American too.  He’s allowed to take shots too.  

 

 I think you got it all wrong dude.  UNC is the school I would say that don’t allow their players to be great.  I also think Embiid only getting 6 shots and Wiggins not "taking over" is all coaching.  That is a system and players normally don’t dominate individually in that Kansas Jayhawks system.  No matter what position they play.

[tuck243Participant]

I totally disagree with you.  I read your post 3 times trying to figure out what you see but I just don’t get it.   Honestly, Coach K has change his offensively philosophy in recent years that I feel people can no longer say he don’t allow his players to be great.  He allowed Kyrie and Austin to do damn near whatever they want offensively.  I agree that Cook take stupid shots and don’t play through Jabari or Hood at times, but I think that’s on Cook than Coach K.   You want Coach K to pull him out when he take a bad shot?  LOL…  That offense is similar to a fast pace offense that the Knicks (suppose to) play.  If you got a good look take it, then get back on D.  When it’s time to slow down the ball then go to your go to player.  Which Cook does, do remember Cook is a McDonald’s All-American too.  He’s allowed to take shots too.  

 

 I think you got it all wrong dude.  UNC is the school I would say that don’t allow their players to be great.  I also think Embiid only getting 6 shots and Wiggins not "taking over" is all coaching.  That is a system and players normally don’t dominate individually in that Kansas Jayhawks system.  No matter what position they play.

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