[valentine]

im sitting here watching espn’s 30 for 30 episode on reggie miller. miller gave the knicks the business( i remeber watching that game in amazement) and after the game the knicks fans booed spike lee and blamed him for the lost. even the papers had him on the front page saying the knicks got spiked and hes the reason why they lost because he got miller fired up

watching all this makes me miss the old nba. how rough it was and the fights and the trash talking and trash talking to certain fans like spike and the guy who used to sit behind the bullets bench. it wasnt as soft as it is today as far as the crying and how everything is a flagrant foul

[SlimParticipant]

…

nobody misses the fights,

trash talking? I miss the rare players who could back it up Jordan, Bird

they were ahead of their time I guess

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

I miss the old NBA too, but it’s on to the next one bro.

[butidonthavemoney]

I miss the short shorts. And the NBC Showtime Theme song…

[QUINCEY]

Let Your Game Speak speak for youre self…as a matter of fact you cant even speak because youre too young to even completely understand what was going on at that time…this is more for the older people..you were only 4 or 5 at the time so you cant talk

[OrangeJuiceJonesParticipant]

I miss the long, but interesting halftime shows.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

That theme song was it! I used to get hyped when it came on before games, etc lol. I used to play that them song in my head before AAU games lol.

I do miss the old NBA! Damn… Trash talking and getting no tech… Handchecking, hard fouls and no flagrants… Dudes laying it on the line for the love of the game.

Got to love what we have now though. It is what it is!

[QUINCEY]

i also miss the trash talking..i know there are some now but the refs dont let it go on for the whole game like back then… now that i think about it some of the people on here who have got into debates about jordanand some of the older player comparisons were only 2-5 years old when he was really dominating the leauge. and some of them were talking like they truley remember jordan..lol

[llperez]

things i miss from the 90’s:

There wasn’t as much nba on tv and no league pass, so the Sunday afternoon game of the week felt like a huge deal.
Reggie miller in the playoffs was always fun to watch.
the bulls with jordan

But overall the game is better. There are more flat out talented players in the league. You used to have guys that were purely physical bigs with no skill or gaurds who could handle the ball but couldnt shoot or could shoot but couldnt handle the ball. Thats why teams back in the day would literally ride their superstars non stop and there was not as much ball movement. Bigs like Barkley, Olajuwon, Shaq and others would just dominate the ball and back guys down and the whole shot clock would see little ball movement. Now it seems every guy on the court can hurt you and we see guys like Darren Collison, Marcus Thornton, Adray Blatche, Rudy Fernandez and many others who can step in and play as soon as they get the chance.

[knicksfan7Participant]

I was only 5 when Miller did that, but Basketball was and is my first love. That being said I miss the old Knicks-Heat rivalries. I will never forget when Jeff Van Gundy was holding onto Alonzo Morning’s leg under a pile. For the only good fouls are hard fouls. If I am playing and I am going to foul, I am going to foul you hard, so you don’t get a shot off, and that’s how it should be done. I don’t think current NBA players understand how trash talking is an art, it is very hard to be successful at it which is why very few are.

[QUINCEY]

llperez22..lol..you still have guards who cant shoot..actually back in the day more guards could shoot then now. now more guards can drive then they can shoot. and the bigs back int he day were better and more fundamanetally sound. the bigs today are more athletic but lack solid post skills and are just big…you got it backwards

[knicksfan7Participant]

Watching this, I long for the days when the Knicks are playoff contenders again. MSG will be rocking again.

[DanEboyParticipant]

Shooting was way better in the 80’s and 90’s. The jumpshot is a lost art compared to back then. Players rely on their athleticism more today. I do agree that the talent level is much higher today than back then.

[llperez]

quincey, i didn’t say anything about the gaurds being better shooters today, but since you brought it up, i do think that overall the game has better shooters today. As for the bigs, i think people are only remembering the top guys and the stars when they say the bigs were better back thenm which i would agree with. But overall, the talent from bigs today is much better from top to bottom. Im watching the new orleans vs phoenix game right now and im watching amare spin on guys. David west and channing frye knock down shots. Even Darius songaila is facing up ad hitting on guys. Back in the day, you had way more bruisers that pretty much just rebounded and defended that were filing roster spots in the nba.

Just look at the 1994 finals between new york and houston. pf’s were oakley vs otis thorpe. Oakley had a decent jumper, but otherwise both guys were just physical bangers, and they were all stars back then. Robert horry vs charles Smith at sf who neither guy could dribble for their life, but they could shoot and defend and rebound. Gaurds were solid shooters in vernon maxwell vs starks, gunners, but little else. Those teams just dumped it in to their bigs and played physical. And those are perfect examples how the league was during that time.

My argument was that guys are more well rounded and skilled now a days and rosters are deeper with guys that can come in and take advantage of playing time. I guess we disagree.

[QUINCEY]

now that i reread what you said you are wayyyyy wrong..how old are you?..there were plenty of guys who did work when given a chance. the bigs these days suck compared to back then and the guards arent as good either…how many guys today are sure hall of famers…kobe,wade,dirk,lebron,cp3. rookies came int he leauge and did what collins is doing now..you either forgot or youre too young to remember guys were more ready when they got to the nba. they didnt have to sit for 5 years before they could step in and do work. guards today are much worst at shooting and fundamantals. the reason why they cant play more half court is because the big men of today arent as good so they have to run more. i can imagin the guards of today playign with the no hand checking rule…..whewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww…some of the scoring would be brutal

[llperez]

trust me, i watched those games. And we defenitely disagree on this subject then.

[knicksfan7Participant]

I agree with DanEboy about the jump shot being a lost art, it is why kobe is such a great player. Guys now just want to take it to the tin and slam it or take a 3, players today while more athletic lack the discipline to be good players, maybe even great.

[QUINCEY]

you pick one game between those 2 teams for youre arguement?

rick smits
sam perkins
sabanos
brad daurgthy
horce grant
charles oakley with his mid range
alonzo
larry johnson
richard dumas
james worthy

and guards who are better overall?

ron harper
clyde drexler
thunder dan
gary payton
terrell brandon
allen houston
reggie miller
john starks
jeff horney
micheal adams
joe dumars
kevin johnson

we are talking about guys who could shoot and defend…mid range and three.. these days half the guys dont have mid range games. they can shoot deep but wheres the mid range or drive?..its not even a real topic because its not close….name how many guys are most likely to become hall of famers? how many are gonna end up top 10 ever?..how many center can knock down the mid range and bang? how many can play defense?..the guess you named frye?..would get killed, sangola wouldnt even make the team. imagin some of the guys today playing in the nba where you can hand check and getting hard fouls

[DanEboyParticipant]

I think one of the biggest differences is the lack of a mid range shot in today’s game. Guys rely too much on the 3 ball. And the PF and C position has become a lot more finesse then back in the day.

[Michael.S.Participant]

Really, what is a post without atleast one arguement with Quincey? We will never know because he will never let that happen.

[QUINCEY]

Jamal Mashburn
ceballos
sprewell
dana borros
detlef
strickland
jeff malone
sea elliot
vin baker
dominique
rod strickland
the big dog
grant hill
nick vanaxel

[QUINCEY]

mike if you dont like it dont read or respond..its that simple..i mean really you complain about stuff i write yet there you go everytime coming in and complaining about it.

[DanEboyParticipant]

Quincey, don’t forget Mitch Richmond, Nick Anderson, and Hersey Hawkins

[Michael.S.Participant]

No, I like that you HAVE to argue about EVERY SINGLE post, because atleast it brings some excitement to nbadraft,.net

[QUINCEY]

we can match player for player by stats or shooting or post game or blocking or rebounding and im pretty sure i can pick 2 for everyone you pick. you can say lebron kobe maybe wade and melo as the top guys but the top guys back then got them beat. middle of the pack guys…it really becomes a blow out…post guys it becomes unfair

[llperez]

lots of great players, agreed. But that doesn’t change my opinion at all. More skill today top to bottom.

[QUINCEY]

lol..thanks mike….and dan..i dont think he realizes how good the players were back then…you have hortford joe johnson and rondo as some of the top gusy at there position…do you know how bad alonzo, gary payton and clyde drexler would abuse them!!

[DanEboyParticipant]

I agree with both of you guys. The overall talent level, as far as guys being able to play mutliple positions, is probably better today but the fundamentals, as far as defense and shooting, was better back then.

[QUINCEY]

hey list youre skills players top to bottom then..you can have youre opinion but i will prove how much better they were now…..
kwame brown would get killed by billcarwright
kendrick perkins would get hammered by brad d
kevin johnson east jamer nelson for lunch scoring 25 on him and then dishing 10 ast to go with it
dwight howard..the best big in the game today the dream making him look like the candy man
lebron would do his thing.. but scottie would go right back at him

[QUINCEY]

dan you are right as far as guys being able to play more then one postion..which is why the big men are alot less skilled

[DanEboyParticipant]

Clyde Drexler was one of my favorites of all time. Give me negatives if you want but I see a lot of him in Tyrekes’ game.

[DanEboyParticipant]

I would love to see Scottie in his prime defend Kobe or LeBron.

[Michael.S.Participant]

couldn’t shoot that well, or dribble, or use his left.

[QUINCEY]

i actually forgot about some of these guys who could drop 20 -30 on a guy with shooting or driving

forgot about the derrick colemans shawn kemp steve smith glen rice, chris mullin danny manning, tim hardawy reggie lewis

doug west
hersey
terry porter
ricky peirce
never nervous
drazen petrovic
roney sikley
kendall gill
kenny anderson
dale ellis
blue edwards
larry nance

man and these arent even the top guys like stockton malone, bird,parish rodman the dream david robinson, jordan pippen,barkley…etc..whewwww

[DanEboyParticipant]

Mike, Clyde dribbled with his head down but he had amazing court vision and was lethal on fastbreaks. And Tyreke doesn’t have a great jumpshot either which is one of the reasons why he reminds me of him.

[QUINCEY]

clyde couldnt shoot the 3 but from mid range he was hitting 45 percent and over all 47 for his career..and he could handle the ball.. he wasnt flashy but you werent gonna take it from him and he was gonna get past you… one of the best defensive guard ever( jordan) was getting scored on and drove past by clyde plus hitting mid range jumpers on him.. there are no jordan defenders in the game today…and this was with hand checking

[QUINCEY]

yeah top to bottom the leauge is far less talented from a skills stand point. id argue about the better athletes comments

jordan
kevin johnson
larry nance
domonique
clyde
tom chambers
jr rider
spud
just to name a few

you want big small fowards?

scottie pippen
detlef
derrick mckey
cliff robinson
horry
walt williams
sean elliot
mashburn
jerome kersey
chuck persons
rick fox
david beniot
chuky brown

[Michael.S.Participant]

I can see the Clyde , Evans comparison alittle, I see what you mean. But seriously Drexler back then was an elite wing player and he couldnt even shoot the 3 name one elite wing now who cant shoot a 3

[llperez]

quincey, you seriously got me laughing over here. I remember everyone of those guys and countless more so you can quit trying to name drop random people like Blue Edwards like that proves somehting. And Bill Cartwright would school Kwame?? You mean to tell me that an all-star who started for multiple championship teams could outplay Kwame Bust Brown, well that changes everything, lol. I might as well fire back that Pau Gasol could outplay Sam Bowie.

[DanEboyParticipant]

Mike, are saying that because Drexler couldn’t shoot the 3 he wouldn’t be elite in today’s game? That would be a ridiculous statement. Let me jog your memory about one of the best who ever played the position.

[Michael.S.Participant]

Nope, Im just implying that the skill level today is far more advanced. Heck, Dr. Friggin J couldnt even shoot a 15 footer and he was elite in the 80’s, The skill level in the NBA will only keep growing over time.

[QUINCEY]

all star?…you said name basic players..and ply dropped 15-16 a game in a season

you the one who said top to bottom so i thought id name bottom players….no if you wanna go toe to toe for top players???

the roster on the dream team vs the roster on this past olympics?..yeah id laugh too if i said top to bottom that the players are better and this isnt even counting numbers wise..all those players i named were putting up at least 16 a game

[QUINCEY]

mike..elite guards shooting 3’s…kobe is a career 34percent 3poitn shooter…clyde is 32

dwade 28….

[SlimParticipant]

an elite wing player and he “couldnt even shoot the 3” name one elite wing now who cant shoot a 3

ever heard of dwyane wade, iguodala, ellis

there are other things beside the 3 pointer that you can do to help win the game.

Plus half the guys in the NBA that shoot 3s now cant play defense! they give up more points than they as many 3s as they make

[Michael.S.Participant]

Dont twist it. Quincey you know the deal….Clyde shot an occasional open three while Kobe and Wade shoot them with a hand in their face and a much higher number of them

[Michael.S.Participant]

Sheesh, you guys take everything soo literally..Iggy, Kobe, Wade, Ellis are all better shooters than elite wing players like Drexler and Erving

[DanEboyParticipant]

The 3 wasn’t part of his game, he didn’t need it. Why settle for a 3 from 23ft when you can get to the rim at will. I wish LeBron would let his 3 rest sometimes and just attack the rim more. Who is gonna stop him?

[QUINCEY]

you said elites that shoots threes. and obvious wade doesnt need to bee shooting as many threes as he does since hes not hitting them right?..just because you shoot alot of threes doesnt mean youre a three point shooter

[QUINCEY]

you’re wrong on this point mike no matter how you look at it..percentages dont lie.. its not liek clyde only shoot 5 threes a season. wade takes less threes then clyde was taking

[SlimParticipant]

carmelo anthony shoots .308 for his career and he’s a top 5 SF of all time

drexler shot .318 for his career from 3, by the time he retired he was a reliable 3 point shooter

[kenkParticipant]

Let your game speak posted this

carmelo anthony shoots .308 for his career and he’s a top 5 SF of all time

drexler shot .318 for his career from 3, by the time he retired he was a reliable 3 point shooter

Anthony a top 5 sf of all time – dude has won zero titles – dude did you mean top 35 of all time?

I am LMAO

[DanEboyParticipant]

Knick fans are funny…..what happened to this post…haha

[QUINCEY]

im guessing you just guessed on the wade and kobe shoot them at a much higher rate when wade actually shoots less. wade only had 2 years where he shot over 80 threes..clyde has 12

[Michael.S.Participant]

Guys, can we just agree that the game is more skiilled than it was in the 70s and 80s>

[QUINCEY]

lol..i know right dan..it started with ll saying players were better now then back then and it went into something else. liek i said before people say that untill they look at ho good players were back then. and this is without looking at stats.. when you look at stats it becomes a blow out. theres like 2 guys shooting over 60percent in the nba..back then it was more then triple that and some shooting high 60’s

[QUINCEY]

well i doubt most people remember back then…as far as the jordan era up to 95 the players were much better..not even close in any catagory stats or non stats

lol wade three point shooter….thats classic

[DanEboyParticipant]

I agree that players are more versatile but not more skilled as far as fundamentals go. Like I said earlier, defense and shot selection were better then.

[QUINCEY]

i wonder how many of the stars of today will be hall of famers

[SlimParticipant]

One of the All-Time Greats

And this season, Paul is even better. To see how much better we turn to Table One.

Table One: The New Orleans Hornets in 2008-09 after 41 games

From Table One we see that Paul – after 41 games in 2008-08 – has already produced 15.9 wins. In 2007-08, only ten players produced more wins for the entire season (and one of these was Paul). If Paul continues at this pace in 2008-09 he will finish with 31.8 Wins Produced. And if he eclipses the 30 win mark he will be first player to do this since Kevin Garnett (30.7 wins) did this in 2002-03.

Here is some more perspective on the greatness that is Chris Paul.

Back in the 1980s there was a point guard named Magic Johnson (you might have heard of him). Here is what Magic did in his career:

1979-80: 20.6 Wins Produced, 0.353 WP48
1980-81: 14.6 Wins Produced, 0.512 WP48
1981-82: 29.6 Wins Produced, 0.475 WP48
1982-83: 29.3 Wins Produced, 0.484 WP48
1983-84: 24.5 Wins Produced, 0.459 WP48
1984-85: 24.3 Wins Produced, 0.420 WP48
1985-86: 22.8 Wins Produced, 0.425 WP48
1986-87: 26.9 Wins Produced, 0.444 WP48
1987-88: 18.9 Wins Produced, 0.345 WP48
1988-89: 28.4 Wins Produced, 0.472 WP48
1989-90: 26.1 Wins Produced, 0.426 WP48
1990-91: 26.7 Wins Produced, 0.436 WP48
1995-96: 4.6 Wins Produced, 0.231 WP48
CAREER: 297.3 Wins Produced, 0.429 WP48
As one can see, Chris Paul in 2008-09 compares favorably to Magic Johnson. And that is a point I would emphasize. Chris Paul is developing into one of the all-time great players in NBA history. It’s not a stretch to start thinking of him in terms of players like Magic, MJ, and Bird. Yes, Paul is that good.

http://dberri.wordpress.com/2009/01/27/magic-johnson-and-chris-paul/

[QUINCEY]

not comparable untill paul wins a title ..all the greates of the greats win titles..bird,magic,jordan,jabbar,wilt russell

[DanEboyParticipant]

I only see Kobe, Nash, Dirk, Garnett, Duncan, LeBron, Shaq, Iverson, Pierce, Ray Allen and Wade as sure bets.

Melo most likely

Vince maybe

Marbury and T-Mac nope

Billups nope

[DanEboyParticipant]

You can’t compare Paul to Magic!! Magic has 5 rings. Stats are so ridiculously overrated sometimes. Paul is a great player but he has a ton to do before being mentioned with Magic.

[SlimParticipant]

If Chris Paul had some Hall of Fame Teammates…

James Worthy, Jamaal Wilkes, kareem Abdul Jabaar

Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett

Chris Paul has 1 All-Star David West
—-
Of course, there’s one huge difference between Magic and Paul, and it’s something that may be tough to rectify as long as he’s in New Orleans. Johnson won five championships, while Paul’s team hasn’t gone beyond the second round of the playoffs.

There are good reasons for this — Johnson was a teammate of not only Scott but also Hall of Famers Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, James Worthy and Bob McAdoo. Although Paul has two teammates who have made the All-Star team (David West and Peja Stojakovic), his cohorts pale by comparison.
—
But with this season’s performance, we’re left to consider even loftier heights — such as whether Paul can rival Magic in the pantheon of great point guards.

And despite their obvious differences — Magic was 6-9 yet the most dangerous open-court player in league history, while Paul is barely 6 feet yet may be the best half-court pick-and-roll player in eons — Scott says he sees more than a few similarities between his current point guard and his former Showtime backcourt mate.

“The obvious difference is the height, but they are so much alike in so many ways,” Scott said.

“Number one, both of them were extremely competitive; neither one could stand to lose. Both of them were the most giving guys I’ve ever seen on the basketball court. That was their whole thing, was being a true point guard. They look for their teammates first, [especially] the first two quarters.

“Chris has taken a page out of Magic’s book, as far as most of the time in the second half I tell him, ‘You have to be more aggressive.’ Earvin was great at that, getting everybody involved in the first half and then being a little more aggressive in the second half and trying to take over, and Chris is starting to do that.”

Of course, there’s one huge difference between Magic and Paul, and it’s something that may be tough to rectify as long as he’s in New Orleans. Johnson won five championships, while Paul’s team hasn’t gone beyond the second round of the playoffs.

There are good reasons for this — Johnson was a teammate of not only Scott but also Hall of Famers Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, James Worthy and Bob McAdoo. Although Paul has two teammates who have made the All-Star team (David West and Peja Stojakovic), his cohorts pale by comparison.

As a result, Paul may stay a cult hero for a while longer. Yes, he gets a few scraps of national TV exposure and the occasional endorsement, but he remains mostly a League Pass legend known best to TiVo junkies and his small band of admirers on the Bayou.

Thus, I must implore you again: Watch this guy, and appreciate him while he’s in his prime. Those in the know are seeing the best point guard since Magic Johnson and arguably the best little man of all time. The lack of attention to his exploits continues to bewilder me.
—
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090311

[SlimParticipant]

MAgic Johnson has 5 rings but John Stockton has 0 rings. Magic Johnson has 5 rings
James Worthy has 5 rings
Kareem Abdul Jabaar has 6 rings

it takes a team to win not a HOF PG

PG is probably the least winningest position historically.

you need dominant scorers moreso than a point guard to get them open shots

[SlimParticipant]

Magic Johnson needed dominant scorers around him as do all passing guards

you cant hold that against Paul that he doesnt have HOFers around him.

Paul is great but I doubt any PG gets a ring without HoFers around him.

Isiah Thomas had Dumars Rodman and others

[QUINCEY]

sorry but it doesnt go that way…real men dont make excuses..no one says malone or barkley would have more rings if they had better players around them. youre not judged by “wellif he had more guys around him blah blah blah”

[QUINCEY]

pg is one of the least winningest position in history???…lol there is no least winningest position because you always have a starting 5. theres a pg in every title game. same with sg sf pf and center

[SlimParticipant]

real men dont make excuses..

“Rondo is a lucky guy, to play with guys like Pierce, (Ray) Allen and (Kevin) Garnett,” Paul, who scored 22 points with eight assists, said with a sly smile.”

no one says malone or barkley would have more rings if they had better players around them.

Michael Jordan has said that he never won a ring without Scottie Pippen, that should tell you how important a supporting cast is.

“I remember in the 80’s the press kept saying that Jordan would never win a single NBA championship, because all he did was score. It’s so silly to think about that now, considering the guy has 6 NBA championships from the 90’s. But back in the 80’s most of his scoring was made off of dunks, so the press came down on him for lacking outside shooting skills.

AND, back in the 80’s, Jordan was accused of being a ball hog like Dominique Wilkins. Like Wilkins Jordan just didn’t have enough help around him in the 80’s so there was no one to pass to. Jordan was always under the shadow of Magic Johnson and Larry Bird back then and to a lesser extent even Isiah Thomas. How times have changed for his Airness. ”

[SlimParticipant]

all star pgs who are expected to carry their team without any all star support will never work.

you need other dominant players to win in the finals versus say a lebron in the east

or a kobe in the west

and michael jordan has said himself that the main difference between him and Charles was

a) their supporting cast
b) defense

2:10-2:16

bonus: jordan called him a guard-small forward, and “agile”

[SlimParticipant]

you take HOF Pippen off that team and Bulls dont get past Magic in the 1991 Finals its as simple as that.

You need versatile players to defend and score the basketball.

Chris Paul is hall of fame material in terms of wins produced he is an all time great

winning a title never hurts though and I know he wants the title as bad as anybody rught now

[kenkParticipant]

Just off the top of my head Bird, Erving, Wilkens, Worthy, English, Mullin, Pippen, Bradley, King, Dandridge, clearly better than than Carmelo is to date…. And I only going with guys I say play. If you think that now Anthony is top 5 sf of all time we watching different league.

[SlimParticipant]

Anthony a top 5 sf of all time – dude has won zero titles –

zero titles

Pippen, 6 titles
james Worthy, 5 titles

bird 3 titles
erving 2 NBA titles,

Bernard King, zero titles
dominique Wilkinsins, zero titles
alex English, zero titles
Chris Mullin, zero titles
Bernard King, zero titles

Rick Barry
Dandridge
great player but he had KAreem, Unseld, Oscar, and Elvin Hayes; 2 titles
http://www.basketballreference.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=DandrBo01

I think the numbers tell how much they contribute to wins but I dont go off that here’s my list

here’s my top 5 currently: no particular order
Julius Erving/Pippen/Worthy/
I hear that Connie Hawkins guy was pretty good

top 5 may be a bit extreme, but I believe when its all said and done Carmelo will have set a lot of records

“Without Julius Erving, David Thompson, Walter Davis, and Elgin Baylor, there would never have been a Michael Jordan. I evolved from them.”

Carmelo and Lebron will be in a class of their own, having evolved their games from the great guards and small forwards of the league in the past.

right now I would put Melo in that Nique, Erving, Worthy class with their ability to get to the line(pure scorer).

Bird was a different breed he had Melo’s sweet shooting from the post, but he passed more and scored less per game on average. More of a passer and a better rebounder 10rpg.

I think they’re all great, however you want to put it Carmelo ANthony is a once-in a lifetime offensive talent and his defense is improving.

[Author]

Posts