[TRC1991Participant]

If you haven’t watched the Cavaliers, you’re not missing much. Their defense, depth, and effort is porous. LeBron and Kyrie can’t play together because they’re both ball dominant. Waiters is a forgotten piece as a lot predicted he would become. Thompson is limited offensively but he at least attempts to rebound. The Varejao injury is catastrophic. Marion can’t hit water if he fell out of a boat.

 

ALL THAT BEING SAID…

 

The biggest problem is Kevin Love. His effort on defense is worse than advertised, his body language is junk, he doesn’t box out his man and gets consistently killed on 50/50 balls, and he looks flat out bitter that he’s the 3rd option.

 

This Cavs team struggles, they aren’t tough at all, and LeBron looks increasingly frustrated as the days go by. 

 

 

[SeattleSuperChronicsParticipant]

 Shoulda stuck with wiggins

[SeattleSuperChronicsParticipant]

 Shoulda stuck with wiggins

[Ghost01Participant]

 Wiggins has been the worst player in the league this year under some metrics:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015_advanced.html#advanced::28

 

 

[Ghost01Participant]

 Wiggins has been the worst player in the league this year under some metrics:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015_advanced.html#advanced::28

 

 

[treytalkssports.comParticipant]

That’s a fascinating stat, but it doesn’t really tell the full story. 

First of all, rookies are not scheme players, which means often, coaches put them on the court to develop them in a particular role, not to win games. Often, this means that their replacements, who know how to fulfill a particular role, help their team win more. 

Second of all, this stat may say more about Shabazz, Brewer, or Williams than Wiggins, who were often the replacement for Wiggins. The fault in this stat is that it uses other players to evaluate someone’s success on the court. In other words, on a team that has an awful bench, the best players would rate highest in this category, but on a deep team, the true value of a player is hidden due to the success of his replacements. 

As with any stat, especially advanced stats, they need to be viewed in conjuction with other stats. Wiggins is by no means dominating this season, but it is also obvious that he is not the worst player in the league, or anywhere close. 

 

 

 

[treytalkssports.comParticipant]

That’s a fascinating stat, but it doesn’t really tell the full story. 

First of all, rookies are not scheme players, which means often, coaches put them on the court to develop them in a particular role, not to win games. Often, this means that their replacements, who know how to fulfill a particular role, help their team win more. 

Second of all, this stat may say more about Shabazz, Brewer, or Williams than Wiggins, who were often the replacement for Wiggins. The fault in this stat is that it uses other players to evaluate someone’s success on the court. In other words, on a team that has an awful bench, the best players would rate highest in this category, but on a deep team, the true value of a player is hidden due to the success of his replacements. 

As with any stat, especially advanced stats, they need to be viewed in conjuction with other stats. Wiggins is by no means dominating this season, but it is also obvious that he is not the worst player in the league, or anywhere close. 

 

 

 

[Ghost01Participant]

 I believe my post specifically said he was the worst player "according to some metrics".

Also, the term replacement player has nothing to do with the actual players replacing Wiggins. It is a term used to describe an average player on an average team, not specifically Muhammad or any of those other guys.

Keep this in mind too (all of this via a fivethirtyeight article):

Among players who have logged as many minutes as Wiggins,

None have a lower Statistical Plus/Minus (estimates player’s contribution to pt differential per 100 possessions)

None have a lower Box Plus/Minus:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2015&year_max=2015&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&birth_state=&college_id=&is_active=&debut_yr_nba_start=&debut_yr_nba_end=&debut_yr_aba_start=&debut_yr_aba_end=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&award=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=800&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=bpm&order_by_asc=Y

Only Channing Frye has a lower PER:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2015&year_max=2015&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&birth_state=&college_id=&is_active=&debut_yr_nba_start=&debut_yr_nba_end=&debut_yr_aba_start=&debut_yr_aba_end=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&award=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=800&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=per&order_by_asc=Y

So there are actually a lot of advanced stats that will tell you Wiggins has been downright awful this season. 

 

[Ghost01Participant]

 I believe my post specifically said he was the worst player "according to some metrics".

Also, the term replacement player has nothing to do with the actual players replacing Wiggins. It is a term used to describe an average player on an average team, not specifically Muhammad or any of those other guys.

Keep this in mind too (all of this via a fivethirtyeight article):

Among players who have logged as many minutes as Wiggins,

None have a lower Statistical Plus/Minus (estimates player’s contribution to pt differential per 100 possessions)

None have a lower Box Plus/Minus:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2015&year_max=2015&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&birth_state=&college_id=&is_active=&debut_yr_nba_start=&debut_yr_nba_end=&debut_yr_aba_start=&debut_yr_aba_end=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&award=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=800&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=bpm&order_by_asc=Y

Only Channing Frye has a lower PER:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&per_poss_base=100&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2015&year_max=2015&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&shoot_hand=&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&birth_state=&college_id=&is_active=&debut_yr_nba_start=&debut_yr_nba_end=&debut_yr_aba_start=&debut_yr_aba_end=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=&award=&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=800&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=per&order_by_asc=Y

So there are actually a lot of advanced stats that will tell you Wiggins has been downright awful this season. 

 

[treytalkssports.comParticipant]

 I was mistaken about the first stat, but I know the plus minus stat is a measurement of that team’s replacement players. 

Also, I’d like to point out that I think only one other rookie (Payton) would qualify according to your query (at least 800 minutes). The fact that he has logged as many minutes as many veterans at 19 years old and that he is not completely overwhelmed is impressive. 

He is a rookie! A young rookie! He is showing really promising signs and as the team is built around him, some of these advanced stats will look better and better. They are a young rebuilding team and until they have an organized scheme with thoughtfully planned roles, his oncourt impact may be negligible according to advanced stats. Also, consider the fact that with two of their best players sidelined with injuries, Wiggins has been asked to do more, and while he hasn’t been great, he has looked more advanced than I thought he would.

In other words, if he could follow George’s career path (as a backup his rookie season), Wiggins PER might look a little different. He would also be playing garbage time against backups instead of starters, which would make bloat his stats and make his plus-minus stat go up. 

In the end, advanced stats can be misleading. Is the stat an indication of poor performance, or of other possible issues? Is the stat an indication of good performance, or other circumstances? That’s why I said you have to take a look at all the advanced stats, considering all the queries and similar players, look at oncourt performance and gametape, and develop a more complete view of the player. 

 

 

 

[Ghost01Participant]

So to summarize your response: Forget stats, he is rookie, so he can be really bad, and he can be Paul Geoge even though Paul George was never this bad, and advanced stats don’t matter because they don’t show the full picture, watch gametape.

Ok. Sorry for trying to bring objective analysis. The fact MULTIPLE stats show how bad he has been to me is telling. I do not think Wiggins is the worst NBA player, certainly not. But the fact he is getting a high volume of usage because of the bad team he is on does not mean he is a good, or playing well. He has been really bad. That’s all I’m saying. 

This rookie class in general has sucked. Mirotic is probably the ROTY front runner and he barely plays 20 mins a game. 4 of the top 7 picks are out for the year. 

[Ghost01Participant]

So to summarize your response: Forget stats, he is rookie, so he can be really bad, and he can be Paul Geoge even though Paul George was never this bad, and advanced stats don’t matter because they don’t show the full picture, watch gametape.

Ok. Sorry for trying to bring objective analysis. The fact MULTIPLE stats show how bad he has been to me is telling. I do not think Wiggins is the worst NBA player, certainly not. But the fact he is getting a high volume of usage because of the bad team he is on does not mean he is a good, or playing well. He has been really bad. That’s all I’m saying. 

This rookie class in general has sucked. Mirotic is probably the ROTY front runner and he barely plays 20 mins a game. 4 of the top 7 picks are out for the year. 

[treytalkssports.comParticipant]

 I was mistaken about the first stat, but I know the plus minus stat is a measurement of that team’s replacement players. 

Also, I’d like to point out that I think only one other rookie (Payton) would qualify according to your query (at least 800 minutes). The fact that he has logged as many minutes as many veterans at 19 years old and that he is not completely overwhelmed is impressive. 

He is a rookie! A young rookie! He is showing really promising signs and as the team is built around him, some of these advanced stats will look better and better. They are a young rebuilding team and until they have an organized scheme with thoughtfully planned roles, his oncourt impact may be negligible according to advanced stats. Also, consider the fact that with two of their best players sidelined with injuries, Wiggins has been asked to do more, and while he hasn’t been great, he has looked more advanced than I thought he would.

In other words, if he could follow George’s career path (as a backup his rookie season), Wiggins PER might look a little different. He would also be playing garbage time against backups instead of starters, which would make bloat his stats and make his plus-minus stat go up. 

In the end, advanced stats can be misleading. Is the stat an indication of poor performance, or of other possible issues? Is the stat an indication of good performance, or other circumstances? That’s why I said you have to take a look at all the advanced stats, considering all the queries and similar players, look at oncourt performance and gametape, and develop a more complete view of the player. 

 

 

 

[TRC1991Participant]

I almost think that Cleveland should trade Love to the Nuggets for Hickson, Mozgov and Randy Foye. Am I a Martyr? 

[TRC1991Participant]

I almost think that Cleveland should trade Love to the Nuggets for Hickson, Mozgov and Randy Foye. Am I a Martyr? 

[Jr. ROXASParticipant]

 The whole Cleveland team looks uninterested in defense (especially Lebron). And how could you get better defensively with Joe Harris, Mike Miller and James Jones as your role players/energizers. lolll

[Jr. ROXASParticipant]

 The whole Cleveland team looks uninterested in defense (especially Lebron). And how could you get better defensively with Joe Harris, Mike Miller and James Jones as your role players/energizers. lolll

[Anton123Participant]

You’re right, the Cavs defence is absolutely atrocious.

LeBron’s defence has been surprisingly terrible. He often just roams about completely forgetting which player he is supposed to be guarding. When he’s locked in – he’s still great, but that’s probably under 25% of all possesions, him getting on another all-defensive team would be an absolute joke.

Kyrie is really the only player that has shown up and done his best to adjust – he’s still efficient playing off the ball and he does his best on defence, he’s still not really good, but the effort is there.

It seems that on the whole team Thompson and Kyrie are the only two players trying on defence. But Thompson is way to small to guard opposing centres and Kyrie still has a lot of work to do to develop defensively.

Shawn Marion has been surprisingly passive and dissappointing.

[Anton123Participant]

You’re right, the Cavs defence is absolutely atrocious.

LeBron’s defence has been surprisingly terrible. He often just roams about completely forgetting which player he is supposed to be guarding. When he’s locked in – he’s still great, but that’s probably under 25% of all possesions, him getting on another all-defensive team would be an absolute joke.

Kyrie is really the only player that has shown up and done his best to adjust – he’s still efficient playing off the ball and he does his best on defence, he’s still not really good, but the effort is there.

It seems that on the whole team Thompson and Kyrie are the only two players trying on defence. But Thompson is way to small to guard opposing centres and Kyrie still has a lot of work to do to develop defensively.

Shawn Marion has been surprisingly passive and dissappointing.

[nath09Participant]

 It’s hard for me to say as I live in Australia and haven’t seen more than half a Cavs game BUT; if we all go back to when Lebron started with Miami every second post was about how Bosh was garbage. It’s just about finding chemistry and roles being defined. Lebron being Lebron; it generally ends up being the responsability of the team mate to adapt. Once Irving and Love realise that all their talent will take care of the rest.

[nath09Participant]

 It’s hard for me to say as I live in Australia and haven’t seen more than half a Cavs game BUT; if we all go back to when Lebron started with Miami every second post was about how Bosh was garbage. It’s just about finding chemistry and roles being defined. Lebron being Lebron; it generally ends up being the responsability of the team mate to adapt. Once Irving and Love realise that all their talent will take care of the rest.

[MopgrassParticipant]

 I assume they’ll click. It might take the whole year. If they don’t, I expect Lovd to walk.

[MopgrassParticipant]

 I assume they’ll click. It might take the whole year. If they don’t, I expect Lovd to walk.

[TheTruth86Participant]

 Had anyone expected the cavs to be a defensive power before the season. I m not trying to be smart here but it was obvoius that klove will be the odd man in this rotation.

[TheTruth86Participant]

 Had anyone expected the cavs to be a defensive power before the season. I m not trying to be smart here but it was obvoius that klove will be the odd man in this rotation.

[HazelParticipant]

This is starting to look like Carmelo from Denver. Love’s strenghts are well documented here, but nobody has mentioned these things. 1-He has had multiple injuries that have lasted a long time-Love on the bench is worthless. 2-He is a horrible defender. Not just bad, but horrible. He will start positioning for a rebound before his own guy shoots! He does not have the physical tools to be better than average. 3-His teams have ALWAYS under-achieved. To me, he is the type of player who, given his salary, is a wash. I would rather have 20 million to spend on high-level role players. Do you think Jordon would rather have Love or Pippen (Wiggins IMO) and Larry Johnson light (Bennett)? Also, if I am Lebron I like the idea of "Carrying" this team to the Eastern Conference finals and possibly beyond this year. All the while Wiggins guards the best wing player most of the game, Irving scores and distributes for long stretches. Bennett, Verajao, and Thompson run through walls to get rebounds. Then when I am 35 I hit the real gravy days with Wiggins and Irving in the middle of their prime. I have a chance to be on a contender for the next 12 years. That sounds like more winning than Love chucking and rebounding but not defending. I would like to see those outlet passes though… I think whomever ends up getting love is going to be thinking what NY is thinking right now. We sold our future for something that looked better than it really was.

[HazelParticipant]

This is starting to look like Carmelo from Denver. Love’s strenghts are well documented here, but nobody has mentioned these things. 1-He has had multiple injuries that have lasted a long time-Love on the bench is worthless. 2-He is a horrible defender. Not just bad, but horrible. He will start positioning for a rebound before his own guy shoots! He does not have the physical tools to be better than average. 3-His teams have ALWAYS under-achieved. To me, he is the type of player who, given his salary, is a wash. I would rather have 20 million to spend on high-level role players. Do you think Jordon would rather have Love or Pippen (Wiggins IMO) and Larry Johnson light (Bennett)? Also, if I am Lebron I like the idea of "Carrying" this team to the Eastern Conference finals and possibly beyond this year. All the while Wiggins guards the best wing player most of the game, Irving scores and distributes for long stretches. Bennett, Verajao, and Thompson run through walls to get rebounds. Then when I am 35 I hit the real gravy days with Wiggins and Irving in the middle of their prime. I have a chance to be on a contender for the next 12 years. That sounds like more winning than Love chucking and rebounding but not defending. I would like to see those outlet passes though… I think whomever ends up getting love is going to be thinking what NY is thinking right now. We sold our future for something that looked better than it really was.

[The Scare Crow RisesParticipant]

Anyone who thinks the Cavs would be better with Wiggins knows nothing about Basketball

[The Scare Crow RisesParticipant]

Anyone who thinks the Cavs would be better with Wiggins knows nothing about Basketball

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

 Like someone mentioned in another Cavs thread, I said all year (since the trade) that they could have just gone out and gotten Ryan Anderson instead of Kevin Love for basically the same result.

I was thinking, ok, LeBron is a beast at the 4, then you have Wiggins on the wing for some scoring and defense, Kyrie at point, then get a center and a shooter at the other wing spot and then they are good to go.

Looking back, it looks like Pau was the guy to get. A front line of Pau, LeBron, and Wiggins (with TT, Andy, and Anthony Bennett would have been devastating).  Then Kyrie, Dion, and some other pieces at guard.

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

 Like someone mentioned in another Cavs thread, I said all year (since the trade) that they could have just gone out and gotten Ryan Anderson instead of Kevin Love for basically the same result.

I was thinking, ok, LeBron is a beast at the 4, then you have Wiggins on the wing for some scoring and defense, Kyrie at point, then get a center and a shooter at the other wing spot and then they are good to go.

Looking back, it looks like Pau was the guy to get. A front line of Pau, LeBron, and Wiggins (with TT, Andy, and Anthony Bennett would have been devastating).  Then Kyrie, Dion, and some other pieces at guard.

[rileymcshea3Participant]

Cleveland will be just fine. I love how everyone is freaking out right now. They have the best player in the world and two all stars… Sound familiar? Oh yeah the Heat did it and won 2 titles. The Cavs are 18-12 and are in the East. How come everyone isn’t freaking about the Champions the Spurs? They are 19-13, but play in the West and are in 7th place. As usual everyone loves to freak out and find the weaknesses in the "super" teams, because in reality they know that they are the team to beat in the East not Toronto, Atlana, or Washington (with all due respect are good and are ahead of the Cavs in the standings) 

[rileymcshea3Participant]

Cleveland will be just fine. I love how everyone is freaking out right now. They have the best player in the world and two all stars… Sound familiar? Oh yeah the Heat did it and won 2 titles. The Cavs are 18-12 and are in the East. How come everyone isn’t freaking about the Champions the Spurs? They are 19-13, but play in the West and are in 7th place. As usual everyone loves to freak out and find the weaknesses in the "super" teams, because in reality they know that they are the team to beat in the East not Toronto, Atlana, or Washington (with all due respect are good and are ahead of the Cavs in the standings) 

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

It’s still early, but it looks like Glen Taylor and Chris Bosh were on point. 

I’ve noticed Love’s body language here and there when he’s open and LBJ, Irving and Waiters over dribble and don’t kick it out to him right away. He kind of just drops his arms. You can clearly see he’s frustrated. I questioned if he’d be okay being a role player basically. Bosh was a better fit with LBJ in that regard. Where is this great David Blatt offense that doesn’t play hero ball?

His defense is definitely dumpster fire though. 7.1 attempts is the amount of times he’s challenged at the rim and opponents are shooting a whopping 61% against him. 

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

It’s still early, but it looks like Glen Taylor and Chris Bosh were on point. 

I’ve noticed Love’s body language here and there when he’s open and LBJ, Irving and Waiters over dribble and don’t kick it out to him right away. He kind of just drops his arms. You can clearly see he’s frustrated. I questioned if he’d be okay being a role player basically. Bosh was a better fit with LBJ in that regard. Where is this great David Blatt offense that doesn’t play hero ball?

His defense is definitely dumpster fire though. 7.1 attempts is the amount of times he’s challenged at the rim and opponents are shooting a whopping 61% against him. 

[Ghost01Participant]

 While I think Love was largely overrated for his big stats in Minnesota, its shocking to me how he is the third option there. I just think hes better than Irving, but unfortunately, whether its because Irving is the ball handler, or maybe I overrated Love myself, it just isn’t happening. 

Still was a lot of time to figure it out though, their supporting cast sucks right now, and if they upgrade it and get a rim protector they are still a threat. 

[Ghost01Participant]

 While I think Love was largely overrated for his big stats in Minnesota, its shocking to me how he is the third option there. I just think hes better than Irving, but unfortunately, whether its because Irving is the ball handler, or maybe I overrated Love myself, it just isn’t happening. 

Still was a lot of time to figure it out though, their supporting cast sucks right now, and if they upgrade it and get a rim protector they are still a threat. 

[doubledribblerParticipant]

I still think the same about Love as I did last year. He is still a terrible defender, he shoots way too many 3s and a lot of times he would sacrifice good defensive position to get rebounds (as in he stops playing defense to hurry and get better rebounding position thus inflated rebounding numbers). He is the same player he was last year. I’m surprised he hasn’t fit in better offensively though. This is what he has been working towards every year as he has moved further away from the basket to shoot more 3s and has become less efficient offensively. At least with Bosh he was giving defensive pressure and making guys work for their shots. Like someone said above, the Cavs could have just gotten Ryan Anderson to do what Love is doing right now.

Blatt is definitely part of the problem. I don’t see any imprint of what is suppose to be his offense. If I have a small team I am going to play to my strengths and get up and down the court. It hurts that they don’t have depth, but you knew going in you didn’t have enough to stop anyone. Might as well take your chances getting up as many shots as possible with Kyrie, Lebron and Love.

It’s just a mediocre team that is lucky to be in a weak conference. 

 

 

 

[doubledribblerParticipant]

I still think the same about Love as I did last year. He is still a terrible defender, he shoots way too many 3s and a lot of times he would sacrifice good defensive position to get rebounds (as in he stops playing defense to hurry and get better rebounding position thus inflated rebounding numbers). He is the same player he was last year. I’m surprised he hasn’t fit in better offensively though. This is what he has been working towards every year as he has moved further away from the basket to shoot more 3s and has become less efficient offensively. At least with Bosh he was giving defensive pressure and making guys work for their shots. Like someone said above, the Cavs could have just gotten Ryan Anderson to do what Love is doing right now.

Blatt is definitely part of the problem. I don’t see any imprint of what is suppose to be his offense. If I have a small team I am going to play to my strengths and get up and down the court. It hurts that they don’t have depth, but you knew going in you didn’t have enough to stop anyone. Might as well take your chances getting up as many shots as possible with Kyrie, Lebron and Love.

It’s just a mediocre team that is lucky to be in a weak conference. 

 

 

 

[Make’Em Say UGHParticipant]

I feel like Love is not being properly utilized. He’s been reduced. Granted I’m going mostly off of highlights, but I see him taking WAAAY too many 3’s. I don’t know how much of that blame is on the gameplan vs himself. (I say gameplan because these look like plays designed for Love to roll out to the perimeter)

Sure he has holes in his game, but he was regarded by most as the best PF in the game a few years ago. (Barkley would say so in a heartbeat!)

To me, I see it as a chemistry issue: LeBron & Kyrie dominate the offense already, so them having Love roll out to take designed 3 pointers is a bit of a cop-out for me. He’s much better than that. MUCH. 

You can tell he’s not happy with this.

 

  

[Make’Em Say UGHParticipant]

I feel like Love is not being properly utilized. He’s been reduced. Granted I’m going mostly off of highlights, but I see him taking WAAAY too many 3’s. I don’t know how much of that blame is on the gameplan vs himself. (I say gameplan because these look like plays designed for Love to roll out to the perimeter)

Sure he has holes in his game, but he was regarded by most as the best PF in the game a few years ago. (Barkley would say so in a heartbeat!)

To me, I see it as a chemistry issue: LeBron & Kyrie dominate the offense already, so them having Love roll out to take designed 3 pointers is a bit of a cop-out for me. He’s much better than that. MUCH. 

You can tell he’s not happy with this.

 

  

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

 My comparisons for the Cavs are STILL the 1990 Hawks who had Dominique, Moses Malone, Kevin Willis, Spud Webb and some other good guards, but didn’t even make the playoffs.

I don’t see this Cavs team missing the playoffs, and if they repeat the 1990 Hawks record they will get in.  I think that team had 40 or 42 wins.

On the upside, the 1973-1974 Boston Celtics team also had a similar makeup.  Led by 12th year Ohio native John Havlicek, with Dave Cowens as an undersized scorer and rebounder inside, Paul Silas as an extra rebounder, JoJo White for backcourt scoring and Don Cheney at the other guard spot.  That team won 56 games and took home the title.  

Similarly, today’s Cavs’ best TALENT for a starting five would be Kyrie Irving, Dion Waiters, LeBron, Tristan Thompson, and Kevin Love.  

You almost have to go out and do SMALL BALL with Love at the 5 some.

If I am the Cavs I try to go out and get Mario Chalmers and Birdman from the Heat.  Trade Dion Waiters to the Heat as the D Wade replacement.  Then start the Shabazz Napier Movement.  With Norris Cole as the defensive minded point guard.  The Cavs get their rim protector and veteran presence in Birdman.  The Cavs also send the Heat Joe Harris, Alex Kirk, and a draft pick.

This trade doesn’t work on ESPN Trade Machine so they might have to wait until the Heat can trade Birdman.

BUT, the Cavs need an inside defender.  Birdman would be a guy who can block shots, rebound, and make high percentage shots inside.  Then Mario can be a good backup point guard, OR they can go small with a 2 point guard lineup.

If the Cavs don’t have a first rounder to trade then they could add 2 second round picks and cash to the deal.

The Cavs are in WIN NOW mode.  LeBron isn’t getting any younger either.

Cavs first team: Kyrie Irving, Mike Miller, LeBron James, Kevin Love, and Birdman.

The first team still lacks a defacto shooting guard.  MM is good in spots, but I wouldn’t play him more than 15-20 minutes a night (tops).

Second team: Mario Chalmers, James Jones, Shawn Marion, Tristan Thompson, and Brendan Haywood.

The 2nd team lacks athletes but has good shooters with size and veteran experience.  

I would make Super Mario the nominal 6th man — put him in for 3 point shooting and energy with TT beign the garbage man.

The Cavs should still look at getting a solid/decent 2 guard.

Maybe Xavier Henry?  

He got cut by the Lakers.  He is a streaky shooter (at best) but he is a good athlete with a great build.

They could also bring in a smaller backcourt off the bench with Dellavadova as a pass-first point guard, then Mario as the shooter.  

Yeah, if I were the Cavs I would try to do a trade like this.  They need help inside at the 5 — big time.  Then get another piece to bring off the bench.

Upgrade the 2 either via a trade or scouring the waiver wires.They don’t need a ton at the 2, just a youngish athlete who can get you 7 or 8 points a game.  Basically, Xavier Henry.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

 My comparisons for the Cavs are STILL the 1990 Hawks who had Dominique, Moses Malone, Kevin Willis, Spud Webb and some other good guards, but didn’t even make the playoffs.

I don’t see this Cavs team missing the playoffs, and if they repeat the 1990 Hawks record they will get in.  I think that team had 40 or 42 wins.

On the upside, the 1973-1974 Boston Celtics team also had a similar makeup.  Led by 12th year Ohio native John Havlicek, with Dave Cowens as an undersized scorer and rebounder inside, Paul Silas as an extra rebounder, JoJo White for backcourt scoring and Don Cheney at the other guard spot.  That team won 56 games and took home the title.  

Similarly, today’s Cavs’ best TALENT for a starting five would be Kyrie Irving, Dion Waiters, LeBron, Tristan Thompson, and Kevin Love.  

You almost have to go out and do SMALL BALL with Love at the 5 some.

If I am the Cavs I try to go out and get Mario Chalmers and Birdman from the Heat.  Trade Dion Waiters to the Heat as the D Wade replacement.  Then start the Shabazz Napier Movement.  With Norris Cole as the defensive minded point guard.  The Cavs get their rim protector and veteran presence in Birdman.  The Cavs also send the Heat Joe Harris, Alex Kirk, and a draft pick.

This trade doesn’t work on ESPN Trade Machine so they might have to wait until the Heat can trade Birdman.

BUT, the Cavs need an inside defender.  Birdman would be a guy who can block shots, rebound, and make high percentage shots inside.  Then Mario can be a good backup point guard, OR they can go small with a 2 point guard lineup.

If the Cavs don’t have a first rounder to trade then they could add 2 second round picks and cash to the deal.

The Cavs are in WIN NOW mode.  LeBron isn’t getting any younger either.

Cavs first team: Kyrie Irving, Mike Miller, LeBron James, Kevin Love, and Birdman.

The first team still lacks a defacto shooting guard.  MM is good in spots, but I wouldn’t play him more than 15-20 minutes a night (tops).

Second team: Mario Chalmers, James Jones, Shawn Marion, Tristan Thompson, and Brendan Haywood.

The 2nd team lacks athletes but has good shooters with size and veteran experience.  

I would make Super Mario the nominal 6th man — put him in for 3 point shooting and energy with TT beign the garbage man.

The Cavs should still look at getting a solid/decent 2 guard.

Maybe Xavier Henry?  

He got cut by the Lakers.  He is a streaky shooter (at best) but he is a good athlete with a great build.

They could also bring in a smaller backcourt off the bench with Dellavadova as a pass-first point guard, then Mario as the shooter.  

Yeah, if I were the Cavs I would try to do a trade like this.  They need help inside at the 5 — big time.  Then get another piece to bring off the bench.

Upgrade the 2 either via a trade or scouring the waiver wires.They don’t need a ton at the 2, just a youngish athlete who can get you 7 or 8 points a game.  Basically, Xavier Henry.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[treytalkssports.comParticipant]

I know others have said this, but LeBron looks 5 years older than he did last year. He has lost his explosion. Maybe Spoelstra saw something and that’s why Lebron was in the post so much. He is not nearly as athletic as he was when he played on the wing in Cleveland or in the first couple of years in Miami. 

The problem is that Bosh could play center with Lebron at power forward, but Love can’t because he is an aweful defender (allowing 64% fg at the rim). Lebron is essentially forced to play on the wing or else they have no presence inside at all.

This team is fundamentally flawed, which is something that was said about the Heat four years ago. But I think this flaw can’t be fixed, considering Love’s limitations, Lebron’s loss of athleticism, and Blatt’s relative lack of creativity. 

Throw in the fact that they just spend almost 40 million dollars on a player who could never stay healthy and will probably never be healthy again, and spent even more on a young point guard and power forward who can’t play defense, and you have a recipe for disaster. The Cavs mortgaged their future for two years of Kevin Love. What if Love bolts in two years? 

The future in Cleveland looks more and more grim with each flat Love three pointer, each blocked Lebron runner, and each still shot of Kyrie in a suit on the bench. 

On a side note: Lebron, Love, and Kyrie are still three of the top 15 players in the NBA. That’s a better situation to be in than the Knicks, or Sixers, or Celtics, or Lakers, or 15-20 other teams in this league. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[treytalkssports.comParticipant]

I know others have said this, but LeBron looks 5 years older than he did last year. He has lost his explosion. Maybe Spoelstra saw something and that’s why Lebron was in the post so much. He is not nearly as athletic as he was when he played on the wing in Cleveland or in the first couple of years in Miami. 

The problem is that Bosh could play center with Lebron at power forward, but Love can’t because he is an aweful defender (allowing 64% fg at the rim). Lebron is essentially forced to play on the wing or else they have no presence inside at all.

This team is fundamentally flawed, which is something that was said about the Heat four years ago. But I think this flaw can’t be fixed, considering Love’s limitations, Lebron’s loss of athleticism, and Blatt’s relative lack of creativity. 

Throw in the fact that they just spend almost 40 million dollars on a player who could never stay healthy and will probably never be healthy again, and spent even more on a young point guard and power forward who can’t play defense, and you have a recipe for disaster. The Cavs mortgaged their future for two years of Kevin Love. What if Love bolts in two years? 

The future in Cleveland looks more and more grim with each flat Love three pointer, each blocked Lebron runner, and each still shot of Kyrie in a suit on the bench. 

On a side note: Lebron, Love, and Kyrie are still three of the top 15 players in the NBA. That’s a better situation to be in than the Knicks, or Sixers, or Celtics, or Lakers, or 15-20 other teams in this league. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

LeBron and Kyrie can’t play together because they’re both ball dominant. 

—————————————————————————————————————-

I agree with almost everything you said except this. Yes they both like having the ball in their hands but having each other helps take pressure off them individually, I actually think Kyrie can thrive playing off Lebron to a degree.

The stats so far this year support that, sure on the surface Kyrie’s 20.2 PPG and 5.3 APG look a little bit worse than his previous 2 years but his FG% is much higher and his TO much lower. He is playing more efficiently with Lebron and they’re just starting to gel in terms of playing styles. Give them till the end of the year and you’ll see the second best 1-2 combo in the league.

Now Kyrie is still a poor defender and that’s not helping the team at all but every time I watch them play together I think they can mesh very well and have done well this season. The team on the whole needs to improve their ball movement but Lebron and Irving can play together.

 

 

 

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

LeBron and Kyrie can’t play together because they’re both ball dominant. 

—————————————————————————————————————-

I agree with almost everything you said except this. Yes they both like having the ball in their hands but having each other helps take pressure off them individually, I actually think Kyrie can thrive playing off Lebron to a degree.

The stats so far this year support that, sure on the surface Kyrie’s 20.2 PPG and 5.3 APG look a little bit worse than his previous 2 years but his FG% is much higher and his TO much lower. He is playing more efficiently with Lebron and they’re just starting to gel in terms of playing styles. Give them till the end of the year and you’ll see the second best 1-2 combo in the league.

Now Kyrie is still a poor defender and that’s not helping the team at all but every time I watch them play together I think they can mesh very well and have done well this season. The team on the whole needs to improve their ball movement but Lebron and Irving can play together.

 

 

 

[GrandmamaParticipant]

 Got negged hardcore with a thread I started saying Kevin Love is exposed, and obviously is not a top 10 player.  Standard around these parts.

 

So to the morons who thought he was either a top 5 or top 10 player, what rock are you hiding under now?

 

 

[GrandmamaParticipant]

 Got negged hardcore with a thread I started saying Kevin Love is exposed, and obviously is not a top 10 player.  Standard around these parts.

 

So to the morons who thought he was either a top 5 or top 10 player, what rock are you hiding under now?

 

 

[drpg913Participant]

 The Scapegoat caraoucarousel continues to go round and round first it dion, then Kyrie, we’re at Blatt right jow, love is up next, Varejao’s injury the bench and lastly it will go to its rightful owner Lebron James. He’s complaining about mijutes minutes and sneak dissing the coach and be super pc when "taking the blame". Complains about effort on defense and his defense hasn’t gotten better missed the OKC game because whatever he said was the reason I say all these things to say this is his fault and hes to blame. Not blatt, not kyrie, not love. This is the bed he made he just needs to lay in it or fix it.

[drpg913Participant]

 The Scapegoat caraoucarousel continues to go round and round first it dion, then Kyrie, we’re at Blatt right jow, love is up next, Varejao’s injury the bench and lastly it will go to its rightful owner Lebron James. He’s complaining about mijutes minutes and sneak dissing the coach and be super pc when "taking the blame". Complains about effort on defense and his defense hasn’t gotten better missed the OKC game because whatever he said was the reason I say all these things to say this is his fault and hes to blame. Not blatt, not kyrie, not love. This is the bed he made he just needs to lay in it or fix it.

[TallmanNYCParticipant]

 Love has had is touches cut way way back from what he was used to getting. Between Kyrie and Waiters there are a lot of Guard mouths to feed. And this is a problem because he has always been a high volume and high efficiency scorer. But if you aren’t getting that scoring out of him you aren’t getting the guy who was a top ten player last year and who looked like a Hall of Famer statistically. He needs touches in the game so that he can boost the team’s offense. That will make up for his mediocre defensive, easily. But if he is just going to get normal starter touches, then he can’t impact the offense enough to make up for the defense. 

The Cavs coach is going to figure this out and then the talent between Lebron and Love will pull the team together. Though they had better find anothe Center to help out. That is a big hole in their roster right now. 

 

 

[TallmanNYCParticipant]

 Love has had is touches cut way way back from what he was used to getting. Between Kyrie and Waiters there are a lot of Guard mouths to feed. And this is a problem because he has always been a high volume and high efficiency scorer. But if you aren’t getting that scoring out of him you aren’t getting the guy who was a top ten player last year and who looked like a Hall of Famer statistically. He needs touches in the game so that he can boost the team’s offense. That will make up for his mediocre defensive, easily. But if he is just going to get normal starter touches, then he can’t impact the offense enough to make up for the defense. 

The Cavs coach is going to figure this out and then the talent between Lebron and Love will pull the team together. Though they had better find anothe Center to help out. That is a big hole in their roster right now. 

 

 

[SubzenroParticipant]

I assume they’ll click. It might take the whole year. If they don’t, Evigen bemiks bepanthen

[SubzenroParticipant]

I assume they’ll click. It might take the whole year. If they don’t, Evigen bemiks bepanthen

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

Cleveland is in an odd position. LeBron returned for a number of reasons, some of which I am sure are what he genuinely outlined in his SI piece, but also that his guys wanted more power. Pat Riley runs the Heat, and he was not giving it up for LeBron’s guys. The advantage in Miami is that there was a knowledge base for what needs to be in place for a winner to grow. Yes, great players are a must, but they built their defense first. Those four Miami teams were never perfect, and were always susceptible to size, but in a cap and tax era, they went to four straight finals. It was the first time a team did so since the Celtics from 1984-87. LeBron was at the absolute peak of his abilities, but this year is showing that even the absolute best benefits from those around him. While I tend to be one of the bigger detractors of guys throwing up big numbers on losing team, I did not foresee this level of a disaster in the regular season. At very least, I thought they would be similar to the Del Negro Clippers where the defensive failings did not really become apparent until the playoffs.

Right now, Cleveland is playing like a team that is in real danger of being knocked out early in the playoffs, because they play like a squad where nobody other than LeBron has been there before. J.R. Smith and Iman Shumpert do not change this reality in the slightest. If they were to get knocked out by Chicago, Atlanta, Washington, or Toronto then what? Kevin Love will be a free agent and, while so many have argued that the stats speak for themselves in Minnesota despite the continued futility, he is not working out. The bad defense is still there, but the opportunity for huge numbers have been diminished by the presence of LeBron, Irving, and in that Ricky Davis way Dion Waiters who will not give way to Ricky Davis 3.0 J.R. Smith. Do you double down on a bad fit to justify the trade? They paid Kyrie Irving, but the opposing point guards are either matching him evenly just about every night. Does it make sense to deal him for someone with a greater willingness to try on both ends? 

LeBron won 50 games and made the finals with a team that was playing Larry Hughes, Sasha Pavlovic, and Drew Gooden 30 minutes per night in the playoffs. For all the criticism of Mike Brown, he got that team to defend. Perhaps it is unfair to David Blatt, but how could a team with so much invested in its roster be so ill-prepared defensively to compete? Teams can be good defensively even with less than gifted individual defenders if they have effort and a sound defensive infrastructure. For as much criticism as the 2010-11 Heat took, they were 26-9 after 35 games. The Cavs are 19-16. It is better than the 15-20 start the the 2012-13 Lakers had, but Cleveland is definitely closer to that team than any of the teams LeBron had in Miami.

The other fascinating long-term issue is that Tristan Thompson is represented by Rich Paul. With Anderson Varejao out, the opportunity for Thompson to pack on numbers in a contract year have returned. He is not big enough to pair with Kevin Love, is not a particularly good defensive player or even presence, and the argument that he doesn’t need touches does not speak of a selflessness as much as a limitation. They asked for Kenneth Faried/Derrick Favors money. They ought to be looking to deal him, but can they?

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

Cleveland is in an odd position. LeBron returned for a number of reasons, some of which I am sure are what he genuinely outlined in his SI piece, but also that his guys wanted more power. Pat Riley runs the Heat, and he was not giving it up for LeBron’s guys. The advantage in Miami is that there was a knowledge base for what needs to be in place for a winner to grow. Yes, great players are a must, but they built their defense first. Those four Miami teams were never perfect, and were always susceptible to size, but in a cap and tax era, they went to four straight finals. It was the first time a team did so since the Celtics from 1984-87. LeBron was at the absolute peak of his abilities, but this year is showing that even the absolute best benefits from those around him. While I tend to be one of the bigger detractors of guys throwing up big numbers on losing team, I did not foresee this level of a disaster in the regular season. At very least, I thought they would be similar to the Del Negro Clippers where the defensive failings did not really become apparent until the playoffs.

Right now, Cleveland is playing like a team that is in real danger of being knocked out early in the playoffs, because they play like a squad where nobody other than LeBron has been there before. J.R. Smith and Iman Shumpert do not change this reality in the slightest. If they were to get knocked out by Chicago, Atlanta, Washington, or Toronto then what? Kevin Love will be a free agent and, while so many have argued that the stats speak for themselves in Minnesota despite the continued futility, he is not working out. The bad defense is still there, but the opportunity for huge numbers have been diminished by the presence of LeBron, Irving, and in that Ricky Davis way Dion Waiters who will not give way to Ricky Davis 3.0 J.R. Smith. Do you double down on a bad fit to justify the trade? They paid Kyrie Irving, but the opposing point guards are either matching him evenly just about every night. Does it make sense to deal him for someone with a greater willingness to try on both ends? 

LeBron won 50 games and made the finals with a team that was playing Larry Hughes, Sasha Pavlovic, and Drew Gooden 30 minutes per night in the playoffs. For all the criticism of Mike Brown, he got that team to defend. Perhaps it is unfair to David Blatt, but how could a team with so much invested in its roster be so ill-prepared defensively to compete? Teams can be good defensively even with less than gifted individual defenders if they have effort and a sound defensive infrastructure. For as much criticism as the 2010-11 Heat took, they were 26-9 after 35 games. The Cavs are 19-16. It is better than the 15-20 start the the 2012-13 Lakers had, but Cleveland is definitely closer to that team than any of the teams LeBron had in Miami.

The other fascinating long-term issue is that Tristan Thompson is represented by Rich Paul. With Anderson Varejao out, the opportunity for Thompson to pack on numbers in a contract year have returned. He is not big enough to pair with Kevin Love, is not a particularly good defensive player or even presence, and the argument that he doesn’t need touches does not speak of a selflessness as much as a limitation. They asked for Kenneth Faried/Derrick Favors money. They ought to be looking to deal him, but can they?

[Author]

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