[chevilicousParticipant]

I’m a little curious as to what you all think about the job Ty has done this season, and furthermore how you guy’s feel about the lack of development, and playing time he’s giving the young guys on this roster especially when the team is struggling as it is.

  A couple things are fairly clear with this team, number one Al Jefferson and Paul Millsap are a solid front court duo, whom put up solid numbers on a consistent basis, and are clearly the #1 and 2 options on offense as the team is currently constructed. However with that being said they are a front court duo that at their peak can maybe get you into the playoffs as a #7 or 8 seed, and have you ousted in the first round. As a tandem despite their offensive strengths have glaring weaknesses on the defensive end, wether that be on the glass, or getting worked by quicker/longer opponents. Both of these guys log huge minutes on a nightly basis hindering the development of both favors and Kanter, as they both are only able to log between 10-15 min a night.

Our wings are utterly atrocious, I have to tell you that I’m so sick and tired of seeing CJ Miles play a single minute on this roster anymore. The dude is my least favorite jazz player since the late great Gordan Giricek. I don’t understand this orginizations love affair with this guy, and it started with Kevin Oconnor and Jerry Sloan giving this guy so many oppurtunities, and letting other players like Wes Matthews and Ronnie Brewer walk out the door, with the belief that CJ would some day become a big time scorer in this league. The guy is a absolute bonehead on the floor as he always has been, where he always either dribbles into traffic and throws up a contested shot against 2 or more defenders, or he misses 4 open 3’s a night he’s just absolutely pathetic. He’s the definition of a streak shooter where he will have one good game out of 10-15 games, and that 1 game alone somehow keeps him on the floor.

 Then lastly it has been a season in which Ty has consistently pulled his young guys off the floor, from Alec Burks to Kanter to Favors for making simple mistakes on the basketball floor. From forcing passes, bad turnovers, and foul trouble. Yet he has always been fine when his veterans making the same mistakes, and going as far as to say he backs them and has no intention on pulling them for any reason. Including Raja Bell who was in one of the biggest slumps anyone has ever seen to start the season. This makes absolutely no sense to me as i think the veterans would be on a shorter leash haven been there and done that for 7+ seasons. However it has reached a new high all the sudden where Corbin is now considering to give Josh Howard the starting position over Hayward, after Howard had struggled for about a 10 game stretch and just barely had 2 decent games back to back, while hayward is going throuhg a bit of a slump. Is it just me who feels like this is just getting utterly riddiculous??

[JunkYardDogParticipant]

 I don’t understand why corbin doesn’t try to give more responsabilities to his rookies.

Kanter didn’t perform well at the beginning but he begins to be more and more effective. If you think he’s the futur with favors inside you have to give them more playing time : 20 to 25 minutes. There is a logjam inside (with millsapp) that kills jazz present (quality players wasted on the bench) and futur (lack of PT brings quickly lack of improvement). 

Burks is playing very well with very limited minutes. Therefore he can create and still be dangerous, something harris doesn’t manage to do anymore. He should be starting with hayward as a sf.

Kanter Millsapp or Jefferson Hayward Burks PG (traded via jeferson)

favors as a 6th man, howard, miles, bell, watson, evans,  tinsley…

Calderon should be targeting, jefferson (or millsapp) and harris would be a good package. Utah could take back kleiza or amir johnson….

[Ghost01Participant]

 I don’t think you can really blame Ty Corbin for anything. The Jazz talent wise are nowhere near a playoff team in the West. Yet, they are still hanging around. 

[chevilicousParticipant]

I would disagree and say talent wise they are on parr to be in discussion for a 7 or 8 seed or barely miss out. I never understood at the beggining of the season why people thought this team would be bottom dwellars and one of the worse teams in the league. They have a great mix veterans and young talent, with depth that should keep them close. The reason I’m critical isn’t because of the record, rather the limited minutes the future of the franchise is receiving, if you’re going to lose, why not develop the kids whom you traded away your superstar point guard for, and that simply isn’t happening.

[bloodshyParticipant]

in the win column that is.  But your criticisms are right on.  Favors, Kanter and Burks need to be getting far more play time then they’re currently enjoying.  They need to be counted on to get it done rather than be gap fillers so the vets can get a breather.

The Jazz are giving huge minutes to Howard, CJ and Bell, who probably have no future with our team.  And the Jazz will not be making the playoffs this year.  The west is too stacked this year and the Jazz have already passed the easy part of their schedule.  It’s time to start developing talent.  Push for wins, but focus on letting the future of the franchise lead the way.  It will probably also be necessary to trade Al or Sap since neither is likely to be pleased w/a reduced roll. 

I think Corbin is a good coach who will win a high % of games w/a capable team, but he definitely needs to improve his efforts as a developer.  I don’t want to see Corbin canned, but I don’t think it would be disasterous for the Jazz if he were.  I think there are at least two assistants on the Jazz bench that could match Corbin’s ability, but I prefer stability, so I’d stick w/Ty.

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

 Is it Ty Corbin’s fault that his perimeter players are Bobcat bad? They have the most impressive frontcourt going forward with Millsap, Jefferson, Kanter, Favors, Evans, and Tomic in the mix. They can’t win big with Hayward, Howard, Miles, Harris, Watson, and Bell. 

[Ghost01Participant]

 Exactly, saying they are on par with teams for the 7-8 seeds looks ok with their frontcourt, but their backcourt is downright atrocious. 

[JunkYardDogParticipant]

 hum….. tomic is on the real madrid roster and still has a pretty good buyout I think…. don’t count on him.

Burks is a fine perimeter player…. but you have to give him his chance and PT. 

[bloodshyParticipant]

Utah has absolutely no one that can be counted on to get it done in crunch time from the outside.  Our only consistent players are in the post, which is not a winning formula.  In today’s NBA the post can own 44 minutes of a game, but every team needs at least one reliable ball handler that can win the game in isolation starting from the perimeter.  The Jazz have two players w/that potential, but Hayward consistently passes up the opportunity to be that guy and Burks hasn’t been given the opportunity.

There’s a reason the Jazz keep losing their close games.  Mental toughness as a team is part of the problem, but lacking a single perimeter iso player really hurts us.  I really want Hayward to become that guy… not sure what he’s waiting for.

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

I said going forward. Tomic is someone who is in their future plans. 

[SwatLakeCityParticipant]

First of all there are some "facts" that I need to refute because they are not true. Then I’ll get into the job that Corbin has done as a coach.

Corbin is not thinking of replacing Hayward in the starting lineup. Management really likes Hayward and have a lot of trust in him. He’s lasted this long in the starting lineup this long in the season for a reason. He has done well and better than I expected. I do think he needs to improve his outside shooting. Maybe spend some time during the allstar break and offseason working with the assistant coach and former shooting great Jeff Hornacek.The think that like about Hayward is that when his shot is not on (which is more often than not), he does not totally disappear like Miles, instead he contributes in other areas like rebounding, steals, blocks, passing and plays good, sound, quality defense. Howard may start after the allstar break for the long term but not replacing Hayward, instead I think he will be replacing Bell. This is not because Bell is in "the longest slump ever" as you claim he is. He is actually playing very good defense and has hit at least one 3 every game he has played for the past like 20 games or so. For the past 20 games or so he has averaged about 10pts per game which also isn’t bad. True, he is not a replacement for Wesley Matthews but he has still provided great leadership for Burks and Hayward while still playing stalwart defense and hitting the 3 ball.

The reason why Howard may replace Bell in the starting lineup for the long term after the allstar break is two fold. One the starting lineup will be bigger and provide more of a challenge to opponents. Guarding 6’7 shooting guard is hard for a 6’4-6’6 regular 2 guard to do except for of course the greats like Kobe and D-wade.Two, Howard seems to do better starting than coming off the bench. This was not always the case as he started out the season great, but once he got hurt; when he came back he was never the same coming off the bench. Luckily Bell has had to rest lately and has given the Jazz an opportunity to start Howard, and he has taken advantage and played great the last 2 games.

The second thing I need to refute is that the Jazz have a closer, they have someone who can hit clutch shots in crunch time. That person is Millsap. Last year many people questioned him, and its true the Jazz did not have a closer, but now they have found one. Even though he isn’t a great iso player, he can create his own shot better than people might think. If you watched the Jazz game last night, the Jazz went to him when they were down in crunch time and they needed a big shot. Even though they lost the game they did not lose it because they couldn’t find someone to hit shots, they lost it because of the playoff play of Barea that should have been called as a technical (that shove that Barea had when he purposely walked into Hayward before he shot the second of two clutch free throws. As a result Hayward missed it. There should not be any contact with the free throw shooter at any time crunch time or not. I don’t know what is up with the officials but they keep missing calls that are just killing the Jazz and other teams.) Like I said before even thouh Millsap is a questionable iso player, the Jazz may be one of the few teams that do not need an iso player to be clutch and create his own shot when they need it. They can get the ball to Millsap and he can create the shot for himself, he’s better at it than some of you may think. Hayward is not that guy and he will never be that guy. One he is young and does not have the experience that I think is crucial for crunch time players to have, two he gets his shots in the flow of the offense and is probably not that creater that most people think of him as. Nor do I think he will ever be more of a shot creator. He is so insistent on getting his shots in the flow of the offense that he may never be the creator that some people think he can become. This is why it is imperative that the Jazz keep Millsap. He is their closer, he is their clutch player. He may come off the bench in the future as a sixth man but he is their closer. The Jazz can put him in at crunch time and he can hit shots that the Jazz will need.

Three, Tomic may never come over. Like has been mentioned before he has a long buyout with his current international team. Even if he does come over it may be a little to late because he is only getting older. Who knows if his game will develop or what his role will be in the NBA if he does come over. But age is certainly getting to be a factor in that, and it may hinder him from ever developing a role in the NBA. It may just be better for him to stay overseas for his entire career.

Now I will get to the job that Coach Corbin has been doing and what I think about it. He has not been doing as bad of a job as many may think. The youngsters (Kanter, Favors, and Burks) do need more playing time no question. But you have to remember who Corbin inherited the job from, and also what management may be telling him. Coach Sloan was always a guy known for not trusting the youngsters but repeatedly relying on the guys with experience to win games for him. He even benched Dwill a lot during his rookie year. Also management is insistent on developing their young players with sound mentors. Every one of them has a mentor, a guy with enough NBA experience to teach the youngster the ins and outs of the NBA and also really help in their developing process. And each youngster has been doing well with that help. I have been repeatedly impressed by every youngster that the Jazz have.

Soon Jefferson will be traded and we start seeing more playing time given to Kanter and Favors as a result. It may not happen at the trade deadline but it should happen in the offseason. Many of you may say that Jefferson has stayed too long but I don’t think so. First, you have to remember this is only Favors second year, and Kanter’s rookie year. You can’t really expect a team that has been so dependant on relying on experienced guys in the past all of a sudden switch roles and start relying on youngsters. It is not easy to change styles that quickly. Second, remember the lockout shortened season that we are in. The Jazz really haven’t had time to trade Jefferson and thus give more playing time to Favors and Kanter. Third, the Jazz tried starting Favors in the beginning of the season and all that happened is he repeatedly got in foul trouble. True, that is a mistake that should probably be expected from such a young player, but its hard to give playing time to someone who repeatedly gets in foul trouble. Fourth, the Jazz may be starting Jefferson and giving Miles a lot of playing time in order to showcase their talent to other teams in order to eventually trade them. I certainly hope that the Jazz do not trust Miles anymore to be that bonefide scorer that they expected out of him when they drafted him back in 2005. The Jazz may have kept him for so long because he was young and they expected him to develop into that bonefide scorer overtime, but he is what he is now and its not what the Jazz expected. I truly think that drafting Hayward and Burks was a sign that the Jazz were giving up on Miles especially the drafting of Burks last year. I certainly hope that the Jazz now expect Burks to be that bonefide scorer. As a matter of fact, Burks may be the one that develops that ability to create his own shot, and he may become that crunch time for the Jazz in the future. For now its Millsap, but in the future the Jazz may develop two crunch time scorers, Burks and Millsap. One will be more able to create his shot than the other (Burks) but both will be needed in the future.

In closing I would like to say that I think Corbin has done a wonderful job developing youngsters and still being a great coach. I expected the Jazz to be where they are at right now. You can’t totally blame the "hindering" of the youngsters on Corbin. Part of the "blame" also goes on the management and what they are telling him to do. But in the end I don’t think starting experienced guys in the beginning will hinder the development of the youngsters. I also truly believe that the Jazz will make some trades (one may very well be at the trade deadline coming up in two weeks) Hopefully the Jazz will trade Harris and Miles within the next two weeks. They need a better point guard than Harris. He can not be trusted on to develop the future young point guard that the Jazz hopefully draft this year. That trade may even involve one of the two lottery picks that the Jazz have right now. I think it would be smart to trade one of two lottery picks because drafting another youngster other than a point guard will definitely hinder the development of Burks, Hayward, Kanter or Favors. Not only will it hinder one of those youngsters but it will also hinder the development of the other youngster (not at point guard) that the Jazz do draft. It is imperative that the Jazz only keep one their two lottery picks and draft a point guard with that pick.

[PrometheusParticipant]

 Utah’s got a lot of promising young talent.  Alec Burks, Favors, Hayward, and Kanter.  Then they have a couple of established players like Jefferson, Millsap and a so far dissapointing Devin Harris.  I don’t know that theyre a playoff team yet but their future looks pretty good.  

I like what i’v seen from Burks in limited playing time, he has shown the ability to get to the rim and score.  Kanter looks like he will eventually be a solid double double guy.  Hayward’s shooting numbers have taken a hit this year, but he looks like a guy who can be a solid all around player.

The X-factor for the future of this team is probably Derrick Favors.  He hasn’t shown much improvement since comming into the league, but if he can establish a solid post game, and work on his fundamentals and defense, I think he can eventually become a player who can rebound, block shots, and score efficiently in the mold of an Al Horford.

 

[SwatLakeCityParticipant]

There’s one thing that I forgot to mention in my previous that serious thought I have realized that it is imperative to mention and it might be another reason why the Jazz have not traded Jefferson yet. The creator this post mentioned it. Like he said the Jazz have an impressive frontcourt duo, one of the best in the NBA might I add, that has saved them from being top ten lottery team, and might even push them to be a 7 or 8 seed or just miss the playoffs barely. That duo cannot be broken up to early by a Jefferson trade or else it will to the downfall. Yes, it needs to be broken up eventually, but they also need to keep it intact for long enough to develop the second frontcourt duo of Kanter and Favors. Yes, I said the second frontcourt duo, I believe that Kanter and Favors can develop to be quite a tandom down low. One that opposing defenses will have trouble stopping. As it much as other may disagree with the following statement I have to mention it because it is true. Kanter is not ready start either. He is even less ready start than Favors is. He does not get in foul trouble too easily like Favors tends to do when he starts, but Kanter is very raw offensively. He gets most of his points off of putbacks thanks to his gift and art of rebounding the ball so magnificiently. But he cannot rely on putbacks in the future. If he wants to start he needs to develop more of an offensive game. This also may be the reason why he is only getting 10-15 minutes a night. I do think he deserves more playing time (at least 20-25) but I realize that his raw offensive game may be the reason why he hasn’t gotten it. I realize that this comes mostly with playing time but it also comes with practice, and in this lockout shortened season there just isn’t enough time to practice it and develop it. This lockout shortened season has really put a damper on rookies’ success. That may be why there have only been 4 maybe 5 rookies who have really developed huge roles in the NBA and on their respective teams. (Rubio, Irving, Knight, Brooks and maybe Kemba, Derrick Williams might be added on to that list but right now I haven’t him really flourish yet because of Beasley and the trust that the Wolves have in Wesley Johnson; the Wolves almost have too much trust in Johnson which may come back to haunt them in the future but that is another topic that I will go into at this time)

If Jefferson is traded right now at the trade deadline it will be too early and will lead to the downfall. Kanter is not ready to start like I said because of his raw offensive game. Favors may not be ready either because he gets into foul trouble too easily. Its needs to be timed perfectly when both Favors and Kanter have developed enough chemistry and games that they are both able to start and not get into foul trouble too early when it happens. This offseason may even be too early. An offensive game is not easy to develop especially with a lockout shortened season that we are in right now. Because of the lockout, players could not go into gyms and work on their games, coaches could not have players study a playbook, nor could they work with their teams to develop chemistry and develop rookies and other young players. Players had to do the devloping themselves mostly through international play. (which was a marvoulous tool to some players) They had to develop on their own. Some players, especially the younger ones, may not be motivated enough to develop roles on thier own without the help of teammates, and coaches. During the upcoming offseason it will be imperative that Millsap and Jefferson work with Kanter and Favors to help in the developing process. Kanter has a nice jumpshot which he has shown occasionally in games so far. Millsap needs to take that and really work with Kanter on that. Jefferson can help too, but I believe that developing of an outside shot should be taught mostly from Millsap because he has perfected very well and that is exactly what Kanter needs to perfect. Both Kanter and Favors need to develop a go to move. Favors may already have one but I have yet to see it. Prometheus is right, Favors really is the X-factor to the Jazz’s development as a team, if he does not develop more than that will be the downfall for the Jazz, as it will breakup the second frontcourt duo that the Jazz have. Jefferson has a very nice pump fake which has become his go to move and is probably one of the best in the NBA. He needs to teach that to Favors and maybe that can be his go to move as well.

Once again, it is imperative that the Jazz do not breakup their current frontcourt duo too soon and hinder the progress that the second frontcourt duo has already made and will continue to make if the current one is not broken up too soon. They need to keep it intact and in the meantime develop the second one more so until it can eventually overshadow the current one, and then, and only then, can the current one be broken up (meaning Jefferson will be traded.) Right now it is too early, this offseason might even be too early. Only time will tell, but the Jefferson trade, that many have been hinting at, might not come until next year’s trade deadline! This Jefferson trade and the development of the second front court duo will be the thing that keeps Ty Corbin’s job intact and managements as well!

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

"Three, Tomic may never come over. Like has been mentioned before he has a long buyout with his current international team. Even if he does come over it may be a little to late because he is only getting older. Who knows if his game will develop or what his role will be in the NBA if he does come over. But age is certainly getting to be a factor in that, and it may hinder him from ever developing a role in the NBA. It may just be better for him to stay overseas for his entire career."

What kind of nonsense is "he is only getting older?" Tomic’s contract is through 2012-13, and he just turned 25. Was New Orleans wrong to sign Gustavo Ayon who is almost 27? No because he is an NBA worthy player who the team was able to get for $1.5 million per. What about the 27-year old Ivan Johnson or 25 year old Greg Stiemsma? Eric Dawson debuted in the NBA two nights ago at 27. Clearly his age hindered his ability to get 9 points and 6 rebounds in his debut. Last year, the league had Gary Neal and Tiago Splitter as a 26-year old rookies, Nikola Pekovic at 25 years old, and Omer Asik was 24. A few years ago, Joel Anthony was 25 years old as a rookie. Anthony Parker came back from Europe at 31 years old and has had six solid seasons. I can go on all day. I know this is a draft site and many people have been brainwashed by ESPN into thinking players stop developing at 22, but look around at the league every so often and develop a thought of your own. Not every guy is supposed to be a fifteen year player for a franchise. If the Jazz get four to six productive years from a skilled 7’2" center, then who cares if he is a 26 year old rookie. Heck, who cares if he is a 28 or 30 year old rookie. Sabonis did just fine as a 73 year old rookie and ended up playing in the NBA longer than most guys in his rookie class. Nobody is asking Tomic to be Kareem and be great for two decades. If he can help maintain the two-deep size advantage the team is now developing, then that is easily enough to merit him coming over.

[butidonthavemoney]

Corbin is likely to commit more minutes to the young core as the season progresses and the team free-falls down the standings. Winning was fun, but the Jazz were never going to make the playoffs this season. Not with their current roster. Can’t blame Corbin for that.

[chevilicousParticipant]

Yea, I don’t blame him at all for our current record, as a matter of a fact I would say we are completely where we should be in the standings. However the lack of development has been horrendous this season. I think most jazz fans came into this season with the realization we where going to be a decent team, and miss out on the playoffs. However they also had the belief that while going through these struggles we where going to dedicate allot of minutes to our young core. You can argue up and down that some of these guys are not warranted additional minutes on the floor based on their current production, which is a fair argument. However what pisses me off is that he hasn’t been fair with that stance. There have been multiple occassions in which he has yanked favors or burks due to foul trouble, turnovers or poor shot selection. There was even a point about 3 games into the season when he immediately yanked Favors from the starting lineup because of foul trouble in the first half, which is fine, but what isn’t fine is when he ends the game with the same 2 fouls he had in the 2nd half and no more than that. However by the same token he lives with the struggles from his veteran players such as Bell and Miles, whom Raja had one of the biggest slumps I’ve ever seen to start a season and backed him 100% thus never losing his starting gig.

To me it seems like Corbin has the mindset that he has to earn his stripes in this league, and in order to do this he has to win now, and i think he realizes his best chance to win now is to play his veterans as much as possible. However I think just about everybody else in the orginization has a different mindset and wants to build towards the future. To me it just doesn’t make sense to give your older veteran players a longer leash than your young guys who are still learning the ways, that goes against any logic whatsoever. Or to give minutes to players who have continually been a giant dissapointment for this franchise time and time again (CJ Miles), and never let promising rookies off the bench like Alec Burks. There was also an argument about Sloan and how he never let young guys play either. Well I would argue that point as well, as in the last 5 or 6 years of his tenure he was more open to letting his youngsters play, and you could see he went that way starting with AK going to Deron, where it took him a little longer to break the rotation but he did eventually, to ronnie brewer, to Wes Matthews who became a starter as an undrafted rookie. All in all to me Corbin isn’t being graded by how his teams Win loss record turns out this season, rather the devlopment and the time he spends with Burks,Hayward,Kanter and Favors.

[chevilicousParticipant]

@Underkanter, Hate to say i told you so on that Hayward benching, that you said he wasn’t even remotely thinking about… Granted Hayward played well off the bench, due to a couple factors #1 he got more playing time due to Josh Howard getting in early foul trouble, which probably wont happen again. #2 He was playing on a second unit where the ball doesn’t stop nearly as much as it does with Jefferson and howard and #3 he was playing against a terrible Cavs team.

Corbin after the game made the excuse to haywards success off the bench of getting more scoring oppurtunities with the 2nd unit. Which in itself is definately true due to the lack of scoring on the second unit currently. However this also shows a terrible lack of coaching on his part, due to the fact that in the 1st unit he never draws plays, or keeps his veterans honest for hayward to have scoring oppurtunities. Also lets be honest about the shot selection of Howard/Jefferson/Miles, which is just down right atrocious, and even that might be kind as to how bad it is. However when these young guys take bad shots wether that be Favors, Burks or Kanter, they are immediately yanked within that minute, and only get about 10 shot attempts a game combined on a good night. What kind of message does this send to the youth of this franchise, where the veterans are not held to the same expectations? I would also ask as to why Miles gets a minute of playing time ahead of burks. This kid is absolutely better as a rookie in every facet of the game than miles. I’m just saying this hayward expiriment may work against the cavs and bobcats, but once they start playing real teams this is going to start looking like yet another dumb descision in a season filled with them.

[Author]

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