[Anton123Participant]

So hey, I was looking at James Harden’s stats and I started to wonder how bad his season was historically. He is currently averaging 4.7 TO per game and at this pace may set the league all-time record for turnovers in a season (if he continues and plays all 82 games, he will have about 385 turnovers, 19 more than the record by Artis Gilmore). 

Harden’s turnovers are truly remarkable also because he’s commiting them in just 37.7 MPG, which means he’s averaging 4.5 TOs per 36 minutes, a remarkable number as very few players with historically bad turnover seasons have reached such a number (Kevin Porter, Ray Williams and Jeff Ruland have). 

In addition, he’s shooting 41.6 percent from the field on 19.6 attempts a game. His A/TO ratio is 1.42. He’s also a terrible defender and doesn’t make things better by staling the ball just 1.6 times a game.

I do believe  Allen Iverson’s 2003-2004 season was even less efficient though:

4.4 TOPG, 38.7 FG% and just 74.5 FT%

You could argue that Iverson had a 1.54 A/TO ratio and made things a bit better by averaging 2.4 steals a game. Still Harden will have to slightly increase his turnovers and miss a little more to contend for the least efficient season by an all-star of all time.

 

I guess the question this all brings up is how inefficient can you be while still being considered an all-star?

 

[TripleDoubleScoutParticipant]

 Well to make Harden’s play worse, Iverson was playing on a Sixers team that had less talent overall (to put it mildly) than this year’s Rockets squad. Still, Harden has time this season to improve his performance, and his team is playing much better than they were in the first quarter of the season…

[TripleDoubleScoutParticipant]

 Well to make Harden’s play worse, Iverson was playing on a Sixers team that had less talent overall (to put it mildly) than this year’s Rockets squad. Still, Harden has time this season to improve his performance, and his team is playing much better than they were in the first quarter of the season…

[circumlocution75Participant]

 Only guard other than Iverson to Average 10+ free throw attempts per game in a season….. Iverson is 5th or 6th all time w/ Only All Time great centers & PF’s like Wilt & Shaq & Karl Malone ahead of him…. 

The problem w/ this type of scoring for a guard is that it is very inefficient come playoff time b/c the player must dominate the ball for almost the entire shot clock, searching for a lane…. the refs traditionally swallow their whistles in the playoffs…… it causes a high rate of Turn Overs….. & finally it causes teammates to stand around & watch which makes them much more ineffective on defense b/c when players stand around on offense, they also stop moving on defense……

Both men are clearly great talents…. but in a game that rewards ball movement…. & movement w/o the ball…. a ball dominant guard that is overly dependent on driving to the rim….. just does not translate to greatness in a team sense…..

 

 

[circumlocution75Participant]

 Only guard other than Iverson to Average 10+ free throw attempts per game in a season….. Iverson is 5th or 6th all time w/ Only All Time great centers & PF’s like Wilt & Shaq & Karl Malone ahead of him…. 

The problem w/ this type of scoring for a guard is that it is very inefficient come playoff time b/c the player must dominate the ball for almost the entire shot clock, searching for a lane…. the refs traditionally swallow their whistles in the playoffs…… it causes a high rate of Turn Overs….. & finally it causes teammates to stand around & watch which makes them much more ineffective on defense b/c when players stand around on offense, they also stop moving on defense……

Both men are clearly great talents…. but in a game that rewards ball movement…. & movement w/o the ball…. a ball dominant guard that is overly dependent on driving to the rim….. just does not translate to greatness in a team sense…..

 

 

[TarHeelRavenParticipant]

 I am not a James Harden fan by any stretch of the imagination.  You can’t argue that the guy puts up numbers.  He is one of the best 2 guards in the game.  I have not watched a single minute of a Rockets game this year.  It seems like the Rockets should be better than 21-20 with Harden, Lawson, Ariza and Dwight Howard.  Harden is almost averaging 7 assists a game but does he really make his teammates better?  I’ve always talked about my disdain for Dwight Howard.  After last years collapse against the Clippers, maybe this team should be blown up.  They have all that talent and such little substance.  Do I think a team can win a championship with James Harden as their best player?  No.  I don’t think he’s a winner and I believe he cares more about his numbers than actually winning. 

[TarHeelRavenParticipant]

 I am not a James Harden fan by any stretch of the imagination.  You can’t argue that the guy puts up numbers.  He is one of the best 2 guards in the game.  I have not watched a single minute of a Rockets game this year.  It seems like the Rockets should be better than 21-20 with Harden, Lawson, Ariza and Dwight Howard.  Harden is almost averaging 7 assists a game but does he really make his teammates better?  I’ve always talked about my disdain for Dwight Howard.  After last years collapse against the Clippers, maybe this team should be blown up.  They have all that talent and such little substance.  Do I think a team can win a championship with James Harden as their best player?  No.  I don’t think he’s a winner and I believe he cares more about his numbers than actually winning. 

[ballislyfe25Participant]

How can Harden still be considered an All-Star? Have you ever watched the man play? He is one of the quickest, most athletic players and his combination of ball handling and shooting is second only to Steph. 

[ballislyfe25Participant]

How can Harden still be considered an All-Star? Have you ever watched the man play? He is one of the quickest, most athletic players and his combination of ball handling and shooting is second only to Steph. 

[Anton123Participant]

I’m obviously not questioning if Harden is a good enough player to be an all-star. That would be silly, he was second in MVP voting last year, of course he’s good enough to be an all-star.

But him and his team have had a horrendous season. His combination of shooting and ball-handling does not help the passes he throws to players from the opposite teams or the long three pointers he has been missing. In the last 10 games he has been averaging 5.4 turnovers a game and shooting 40.9% from the field. His team was -2.8 with him on the floor. The question is: can you do THAT and be an All-Star?

[Anton123Participant]

I’m obviously not questioning if Harden is a good enough player to be an all-star. That would be silly, he was second in MVP voting last year, of course he’s good enough to be an all-star.

But him and his team have had a horrendous season. His combination of shooting and ball-handling does not help the passes he throws to players from the opposite teams or the long three pointers he has been missing. In the last 10 games he has been averaging 5.4 turnovers a game and shooting 40.9% from the field. His team was -2.8 with him on the floor. The question is: can you do THAT and be an All-Star?

[GBeeParticipant]

As horrible as his FG% is, his TS is still higher than Lebron’s.  So technically no, he’s not scoring inefficiently. The TOs are awful though.  How he gets away with his style of play in this era is beyond me.  His game is an eye sore and I hope the kids aren’t emulating him.  BC of him I go out of my way to not watch the Rockets play.

[GBeeParticipant]

As horrible as his FG% is, his TS is still higher than Lebron’s.  So technically no, he’s not scoring inefficiently. The TOs are awful though.  How he gets away with his style of play in this era is beyond me.  His game is an eye sore and I hope the kids aren’t emulating him.  BC of him I go out of my way to not watch the Rockets play.

[ExumInfernoParticipant]

 While he does plenty of bad, selfish, strange things on the court, and off, inefficient is not the right word.

He makes things happen on offense, and he gets points, and due to a few reasons he is ranked among the most efficient.

For Points Per Shot, he is top 10 in the NBA.  Durant, Howard, Curry are some of the better players.

This stat is pushed up due to the amount of free throws and the 3pointers, which is the plan in Houston.

Many of his stats say he isn’t efficient, but Points Per Shot does show that there is a reason for what he does and that his game can still work.

For the turnovers, no real excuse for him there, especially as he isn’t the point guard.  Quite bad.

He probably won’t change how he plays, and Houston does need him to take a lot of shots, but it would be good to see him play with a pass-first, creative point guard.  There aren’t many around, but if Rondo or Rubio was on the floor with Harden he would probably be a much better player.  

When Harden is at his best, he is among the best.  But too often he tries to do it all himself, and he and his team seem to have lost their chance to win.  Houston already tried a new coach, that wasn’t the problem.  They need to change who is around Harden, or if they want a big move to find Harden a new home.

Harden, Brewer and Lawson to Cleveland, and Love, Shumpert and Mozgov to Houston?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ExumInfernoParticipant]

 While he does plenty of bad, selfish, strange things on the court, and off, inefficient is not the right word.

He makes things happen on offense, and he gets points, and due to a few reasons he is ranked among the most efficient.

For Points Per Shot, he is top 10 in the NBA.  Durant, Howard, Curry are some of the better players.

This stat is pushed up due to the amount of free throws and the 3pointers, which is the plan in Houston.

Many of his stats say he isn’t efficient, but Points Per Shot does show that there is a reason for what he does and that his game can still work.

For the turnovers, no real excuse for him there, especially as he isn’t the point guard.  Quite bad.

He probably won’t change how he plays, and Houston does need him to take a lot of shots, but it would be good to see him play with a pass-first, creative point guard.  There aren’t many around, but if Rondo or Rubio was on the floor with Harden he would probably be a much better player.  

When Harden is at his best, he is among the best.  But too often he tries to do it all himself, and he and his team seem to have lost their chance to win.  Houston already tried a new coach, that wasn’t the problem.  They need to change who is around Harden, or if they want a big move to find Harden a new home.

Harden, Brewer and Lawson to Cleveland, and Love, Shumpert and Mozgov to Houston?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[D7H7NParticipant]

 He needs to play some goddamn defense. I’m sure the Rockets would allow him to turn the ball over 7 times a game if it means he would stop being lazy when he has to guard someone. 

[D7H7NParticipant]

 He needs to play some goddamn defense. I’m sure the Rockets would allow him to turn the ball over 7 times a game if it means he would stop being lazy when he has to guard someone. 

[BiggysmallsParticipant]

 Couple thoughts on Harden

First, is there a more boring team to watch in the NBA than the Rockets? I guess there are some awful teams, but how people would be entertained by watching one guy dribble around for 20 seconds and jack up contesed shots blows my mind. 

He is a supremely talented player, but his numbers come at the cost of his teammates getting into any sort of rhythm. He dominates the ball, all the time, and his teamates basically stand still and wait. He averages a lot of assists, but I don’t really think his style of play makes people better. 

In the same breath, saying "the rockets wont win a title with him as their best player" is a silly phrase. There’s about 5 players in the NBA right now that you could say "yeah they can win a title with him as their best player", so I don’t know what the point is. 

 

 

 

 

[BiggysmallsParticipant]

 Couple thoughts on Harden

First, is there a more boring team to watch in the NBA than the Rockets? I guess there are some awful teams, but how people would be entertained by watching one guy dribble around for 20 seconds and jack up contesed shots blows my mind. 

He is a supremely talented player, but his numbers come at the cost of his teammates getting into any sort of rhythm. He dominates the ball, all the time, and his teamates basically stand still and wait. He averages a lot of assists, but I don’t really think his style of play makes people better. 

In the same breath, saying "the rockets wont win a title with him as their best player" is a silly phrase. There’s about 5 players in the NBA right now that you could say "yeah they can win a title with him as their best player", so I don’t know what the point is. 

 

 

 

 

[Hype Machine]

 Hes just a hog…

Hes not the only one…just one of the best.

But you could sum up his play style in 1 word.

HOG!

 

 

 

[Hype Machine]

 Hes just a hog…

Hes not the only one…just one of the best.

But you could sum up his play style in 1 word.

HOG!

 

 

 

[TravelinTravParticipant]

 He relies on getting fouled and the refs call A LOT of fouls on who ever is guarding Harden. Boring to watch, he could be a great player to watch, I’ve followed him since Arizona State and he’s turned into a big name guy who relies on getting to the line. 

[TravelinTravParticipant]

 He relies on getting fouled and the refs call A LOT of fouls on who ever is guarding Harden. Boring to watch, he could be a great player to watch, I’ve followed him since Arizona State and he’s turned into a big name guy who relies on getting to the line. 

[Mad MaxParticipant]

 He’s a guy who clearly has never had a very good coach in the NBA: Brooks, McHale, and whoever the interim coach is now just enabled him to play the way he does, a good coach would’ve actually gotten into him and cut down his bad habits, but at this point it would be really hard to see any coach, save for Pop, who could get him to play smarter. I’m not soley blaming these coaches, Harden needs to be blamed mostly for the way he plays, but I see a great and skilled player that isn’t very disiplined 

Granted he’s still a great player, but it’s iso-centric ball and eventually you can’t win that way, you have to play as a team and utalizes everyone eventually. 

 

 

[Mad MaxParticipant]

 He’s a guy who clearly has never had a very good coach in the NBA: Brooks, McHale, and whoever the interim coach is now just enabled him to play the way he does, a good coach would’ve actually gotten into him and cut down his bad habits, but at this point it would be really hard to see any coach, save for Pop, who could get him to play smarter. I’m not soley blaming these coaches, Harden needs to be blamed mostly for the way he plays, but I see a great and skilled player that isn’t very disiplined 

Granted he’s still a great player, but it’s iso-centric ball and eventually you can’t win that way, you have to play as a team and utalizes everyone eventually. 

 

 

[MatosParticipant]

As I’ve stated before, Ty Lawson + James Harden = no bueno. James Harden cannot play well with another guard on his team that needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Best fit to play alongside Harden is a lockdown defender PG with the ability to knock down catch and shoot shots and play well off the ball.

[MatosParticipant]

As I’ve stated before, Ty Lawson + James Harden = no bueno. James Harden cannot play well with another guard on his team that needs the ball in his hands to be effective. Best fit to play alongside Harden is a lockdown defender PG with the ability to knock down catch and shoot shots and play well off the ball.

[bdiddy5115Participant]

It’s 2016 and people are still using FG% to measure efficiency? Who knew? True Shooting % is a hundred times more accurate in determining scoring efficiency

The Top 20 scorers in the League and their TS%:

1. Curry: 29.9; 67.4%

2. Harden: 27.6: 58.0%

3. Durant: 26.5: 64.1%

4. Cousins: 25.9: 53.7%

5. James: 25.5; 57.3%

6. Lillard: 24.7: 54.9%

7. Westbrook: 24.2; 55.5%

8. George: 23.9; 55.9%

9. Griffin: 23.2; 55.2% 

10. A.Davis: 22.8; 55.0%

11. J.Butler: 22.6; 56.9%

12. DeRozan: 22.6; 54.2%

13. I.Thomas: 21.8; 56.3%

14. Anthony: 21.6; 53.6%

15. Lowry: 20.8; 56.3%

16. K.Thompson: 20.8; 59.2%

17. Wiggins: 20.8; 52.1%

18. Bledsoe: 20.4; 55.7%

19. McCollum: 20.4; 52.3%

20. Wall: 20.3; 52.2%

So of the Top-20 scorers in the league, Harden is 4th in TS%, and he gets a "historically inefficient" thread? I’ll be the first to criticize him on his defensive effort this year, and he has been less efficient than last year, but if you’re going to call him inefficient offensively, then you might as well call most of the league inefficient. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bdiddy5115Participant]

It’s 2016 and people are still using FG% to measure efficiency? Who knew? True Shooting % is a hundred times more accurate in determining scoring efficiency

The Top 20 scorers in the League and their TS%:

1. Curry: 29.9; 67.4%

2. Harden: 27.6: 58.0%

3. Durant: 26.5: 64.1%

4. Cousins: 25.9: 53.7%

5. James: 25.5; 57.3%

6. Lillard: 24.7: 54.9%

7. Westbrook: 24.2; 55.5%

8. George: 23.9; 55.9%

9. Griffin: 23.2; 55.2% 

10. A.Davis: 22.8; 55.0%

11. J.Butler: 22.6; 56.9%

12. DeRozan: 22.6; 54.2%

13. I.Thomas: 21.8; 56.3%

14. Anthony: 21.6; 53.6%

15. Lowry: 20.8; 56.3%

16. K.Thompson: 20.8; 59.2%

17. Wiggins: 20.8; 52.1%

18. Bledsoe: 20.4; 55.7%

19. McCollum: 20.4; 52.3%

20. Wall: 20.3; 52.2%

So of the Top-20 scorers in the league, Harden is 4th in TS%, and he gets a "historically inefficient" thread? I’ll be the first to criticize him on his defensive effort this year, and he has been less efficient than last year, but if you’re going to call him inefficient offensively, then you might as well call most of the league inefficient. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Author]

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