[IknoBall12Participant]

Tim Duncan is IMO the top PF to ever play the game hands down. But when you hear about the greatest player accomplishments and resumes he rarely comes up. I know he’s not flashy and the most charismatic guy but his play and consistency over time has to be noticed. When Shaq describes his toughest competition he always says Tim Duncan’s name without hesitation stating his fundamentals and knowledge of the game as being what separates him from everyone else. He’s no doubt a 1st ballot hall of famer. Thoughts?

[BlazermannParticipant]

 The greatest all round big man ever! And that’s just putting it lightly,

[BlazermannParticipant]

 The greatest all round big man ever! And that’s just putting it lightly,

[ItsRainingNegsParticipant]

I wouldn’t put him as a top five player personally. I think Russell, MJ, Kareem are definitely top three and I think Wilt, and possibly Shaq and Hakeem were better. Plus there’s LeBron creeping up. But I would never put Kobe ahead of him and, I was thinking this last night, I believe Kobe will go down as the most overrated superstar ever. It would be a shame if a volume chucker is the all time scoring leader when MJ shot 49.7% as a guard and Kareem and Malone were consistently dominant for over 20 years with efficiency. 

[ItsRainingNegsParticipant]

I wouldn’t put him as a top five player personally. I think Russell, MJ, Kareem are definitely top three and I think Wilt, and possibly Shaq and Hakeem were better. Plus there’s LeBron creeping up. But I would never put Kobe ahead of him and, I was thinking this last night, I believe Kobe will go down as the most overrated superstar ever. It would be a shame if a volume chucker is the all time scoring leader when MJ shot 49.7% as a guard and Kareem and Malone were consistently dominant for over 20 years with efficiency. 

[For_Never_EverParticipant]

Duncan has won me over the past few years. However, Kobe is the more talented player skill and athletically wise to Ducan at his postition.Except for his size. Kobe at his prime I would give him the edge over any sg and sf othrr then Jordan. I cannot say the same for Ducan as strongly. 

 

 

[For_Never_EverParticipant]

Duncan has won me over the past few years. However, Kobe is the more talented player skill and athletically wise to Ducan at his postition.Except for his size. Kobe at his prime I would give him the edge over any sg and sf othrr then Jordan. I cannot say the same for Ducan as strongly. 

 

 

[GrandmamaParticipant]

 No, Duncan isn’t in my top 5 (Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird).  And I put Duncan and Kobe basically neck and neck in terms of all time ranking.

[GrandmamaParticipant]

 No, Duncan isn’t in my top 5 (Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird).  And I put Duncan and Kobe basically neck and neck in terms of all time ranking.

[Taylor Gang MikeParticipant]

 Top 15 ever, Not ahead of Kobe tho. Kobe prolly top 7-13

[Taylor Gang MikeParticipant]

 Top 15 ever, Not ahead of Kobe tho. Kobe prolly top 7-13

[torontoraptors10Participant]

If you were starting a franchise and you could choose between Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan as OVERALL players including health, skill, character etc… who would you choose?

I would choose Tim Duncan

 

[torontoraptors10Participant]

If you were starting a franchise and you could choose between Kobe Bryant and Tim Duncan as OVERALL players including health, skill, character etc… who would you choose?

I would choose Tim Duncan

 

[blood]

 but i just cant forget that international debacle when 42 year old ortiz torched him,then argentinians were letting scola play 1 on 1 vs him which is the ultimate humiliation.And all this while he was arguably best player in NBA.Kobe honestly isnt in my top 15 even,most overrated player ever,ineficient chucker who d shot 40 % in finnalls,shaq piggyback ride him to 3 titles and then if it wasnt briliant gasol who should be mvp of those finals but hey,same thing with him winning MVP,Lakers were finally good ,people were saying how he doesnt have mvp,well beacause he wasnt MVP never in his career,and not to mention biggest joke ever in NBA,kobe bryant all defensive team..thats just lmfao.And I didnt ever heard one respected NBA player who could even mention Kobe in Goat converstaion,I mean MJ said he was maybe top 5 SG which is what he is,maybe 3rd or 4th best sg and that about it,Rapist will never ever be something bigger than that

[blood]

 but i just cant forget that international debacle when 42 year old ortiz torched him,then argentinians were letting scola play 1 on 1 vs him which is the ultimate humiliation.And all this while he was arguably best player in NBA.Kobe honestly isnt in my top 15 even,most overrated player ever,ineficient chucker who d shot 40 % in finnalls,shaq piggyback ride him to 3 titles and then if it wasnt briliant gasol who should be mvp of those finals but hey,same thing with him winning MVP,Lakers were finally good ,people were saying how he doesnt have mvp,well beacause he wasnt MVP never in his career,and not to mention biggest joke ever in NBA,kobe bryant all defensive team..thats just lmfao.And I didnt ever heard one respected NBA player who could even mention Kobe in Goat converstaion,I mean MJ said he was maybe top 5 SG which is what he is,maybe 3rd or 4th best sg and that about it,Rapist will never ever be something bigger than that

[For_Never_EverParticipant]

I look at Bird being top five ahead of Magic. He wasnt great as Magic at passing the ball, but he still was top five at passing and also the offensive end he was way ahead.

[For_Never_EverParticipant]

I look at Bird being top five ahead of Magic. He wasnt great as Magic at passing the ball, but he still was top five at passing and also the offensive end he was way ahead.

[AmiableBaller34Participant]

On Kobe and Duncan:

I think it depends on how you look at it. Personally, I would take Duncan over Kobe because I think he would be able to fit into any team system, and would never be a distraction.

People seem to forget that little epoch of Kobe’s career after Shaq left, and before the robbery to get Gasol (Don’t give me that Marc Gasol bs, that trade was KWAME BROWN for an All-Star). Before that trade, you have Kobe throwing Bynum under the bus because the Lakers wouldn’t trade him for Kidd, Shaq ripping him apart in some stupid song, and he even asked to be traded, and was contemplating the CLIPPERS of all teams. Kobe brought all that to his franchise, and was known as one of the biggest ball stoppers to ever play up to that point. It’s funny how winning can change peoples perception of you (Right Lebron?)

While that may sound like me bashing Kobe, it’s really not, but more me just trying to show the negativity that Kobe has brought to his team. You never hear anything like that about Duncan, and at the end of the day Ducan still has 4 rings.

It’s funny too, because all it takes is one missed rebound/mirracle shot, and Rasheed Wallace actually caring about conditioning, and we might be talking about Duncan having 5 rings and Kobe only 4.

[AmiableBaller34Participant]

On Kobe and Duncan:

I think it depends on how you look at it. Personally, I would take Duncan over Kobe because I think he would be able to fit into any team system, and would never be a distraction.

People seem to forget that little epoch of Kobe’s career after Shaq left, and before the robbery to get Gasol (Don’t give me that Marc Gasol bs, that trade was KWAME BROWN for an All-Star). Before that trade, you have Kobe throwing Bynum under the bus because the Lakers wouldn’t trade him for Kidd, Shaq ripping him apart in some stupid song, and he even asked to be traded, and was contemplating the CLIPPERS of all teams. Kobe brought all that to his franchise, and was known as one of the biggest ball stoppers to ever play up to that point. It’s funny how winning can change peoples perception of you (Right Lebron?)

While that may sound like me bashing Kobe, it’s really not, but more me just trying to show the negativity that Kobe has brought to his team. You never hear anything like that about Duncan, and at the end of the day Ducan still has 4 rings.

It’s funny too, because all it takes is one missed rebound/mirracle shot, and Rasheed Wallace actually caring about conditioning, and we might be talking about Duncan having 5 rings and Kobe only 4.

[Afactor4Participant]

Agree with Skip, I would much rather start my franchise around Duncan. Unselfish, Assertive when he needed to be, a two way player, and a leader that rarely makes the wrong decisions.

Don’t you dare say that to the people here in LA though, you might get a hilariously invalid argument shouted back at you filled with threats and the like.

[Afactor4Participant]

Agree with Skip, I would much rather start my franchise around Duncan. Unselfish, Assertive when he needed to be, a two way player, and a leader that rarely makes the wrong decisions.

Don’t you dare say that to the people here in LA though, you might get a hilariously invalid argument shouted back at you filled with threats and the like.

[IvoLParticipant]

 but i would build a team around Tim Duncan over Kobe but if i would choose him in my top 5, it’s kinda hard i love so many players for me it’s hard i know one thing MJ will always be nr. 1 in my top but not my favorite player of all time Magic will always be my favorite for me but choosing wise, man Timmy will always be my pick if we don’t talk about the other great legends of course

Top 5 not counting other legends i’m only  thinking of the 2000’s

1. Tim Duncan

2. Lebron

3. Kobe

4. KG

5. Shaq/Iverson

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ItsRainingNegsParticipant]

I can’t fathom a world where Shaq is the fifth best player of the 2000’s. 

[ItsRainingNegsParticipant]

I can’t fathom a world where Shaq is the fifth best player of the 2000’s. 

[IvoLParticipant]

 but i would build a team around Tim Duncan over Kobe but if i would choose him in my top 5, it’s kinda hard i love so many players for me it’s hard i know one thing MJ will always be nr. 1 in my top but not my favorite player of all time Magic will always be my favorite for me but choosing wise, man Timmy will always be my pick if we don’t talk about the other great legends of course

Top 5 not counting other legends i’m only  thinking of the 2000’s

1. Tim Duncan

2. Lebron

3. Kobe

4. KG

5. Shaq/Iverson

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ahkasi ClayParticipant]

 not sure that he is top 5 all time, but he is better then kobe.

[Ahkasi ClayParticipant]

 not sure that he is top 5 all time, but he is better then kobe.

[HitsterParticipant]

 Tim Duncan can legitimately be regarded as one of the best if not the best PF ever but a top 5 player of all time is so subjective that the choice is personal. Plus rating players from different eras is harder especially before the days of complete taping of games and for older players we often see just highlight reels, so we have to try and base things on stats, achivements, longevity etc.

 

 

[HitsterParticipant]

 Tim Duncan can legitimately be regarded as one of the best if not the best PF ever but a top 5 player of all time is so subjective that the choice is personal. Plus rating players from different eras is harder especially before the days of complete taping of games and for older players we often see just highlight reels, so we have to try and base things on stats, achivements, longevity etc.

 

 

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

Personally no, I wouldn’t have TD among the top 5 greatest players all time. I would put him just outside the top 5 players I have ever seen play so that’s not even counting Wilt, Russell, Kareem and the Big O (technically I saw Kareem play but only well past his prime).

The best players I have ever seen (starting at about 1987 or 1988)

1. Michael Jordan
2. Lebron James
3. Magic Johnson
4. Shaquille O’Neal
5. Larry Bird
6. Hakeem Olajuwon

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

Personally no, I wouldn’t have TD among the top 5 greatest players all time. I would put him just outside the top 5 players I have ever seen play so that’s not even counting Wilt, Russell, Kareem and the Big O (technically I saw Kareem play but only well past his prime).

The best players I have ever seen (starting at about 1987 or 1988)

1. Michael Jordan
2. Lebron James
3. Magic Johnson
4. Shaquille O’Neal
5. Larry Bird
6. Hakeem Olajuwon

[llperez]

Duncan is not ahead of kobe. The only arguments to support Duncan in that debate is that kobe was mean. Once you talk basketball and winning and skills, kobe > duncan

[llperez]

Duncan is not ahead of kobe. The only arguments to support Duncan in that debate is that kobe was mean. Once you talk basketball and winning and skills, kobe > duncan

[NYK2010Participant]

None of us saw Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, Kareem or other old school players in their prime i’m assuming.

For some that don’t know Kareem made All NBA teams when Centers like Wilt, Russell, Cowens, McAdoo, Olajuwon, Wilt, Reed, Moses Malone, Walton, Parish, Lanier, Thurmond were in the league and they all made the HOF.

Very few of you saw Magic, Bird, Jordan, Moses, Olajuwon play in the 80s or early 90s.

My top 5 would include Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Kareem and Bird not specifically in that order but close.

6-10 Olajuwon, West, Magic, Oscar, Duncan also not in that order.. 

11-20 Kobe, Shaq, Moses Malone, Jerry West, Pettit, Cousy, Elgin Baylor, Havlicek, Lebron, Elvin Hayes, similar to what order I’d rank them except Lebron who’ll end up top 5 or10.

21-30 Cowens, Stockton, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Isaiah Thomas, Sam Jones, Barry, Maravich, Dr. J, Drexler

31-40 Robinson, Ewing, Pippen, KG, Dirk, Iverson, Walt Frazier, Rich Barry, Willis Reed, Dominique Wilkins

41-50 Worthy, Kidd, Parish, Arizin, Thurmond, Debusschere, Mchale, Mikan, Lucas, Cunningham

51-60 Artis Gilmore, Wade, Walton, Lenny Wilkens, Dennis Rodman, Dave Bing, Greer, Earl Monroe, Lanier, Wes Unseld

61-70 Billy Sharman, Nate Archibald, Adrian Dantley, Bob McAdoo, Bellamy, Dumars, Mitch Richmond, Stokes, David Thomspon, Schayes

71-80 Grant Hill, Wilkes, Dennis Johnson, Steve Nash, Tony Parker, Pierce, Ray Allen, CP3, Dan Issel, Reggie Miller

The whole greatest PF of all time doesn’t mean a lot.  Why because all those Centers if they played PF would be the greatest ever.  How many All NBA defensive teams did Kareem make, hell Bird even made a couple. I know people will says Bird played w/McHale, Parish and Magic played with Kareem & Worthy.  Don’t forget Duncan played with Robinson, Ginobili, Parker, Horry who was more clutch than most role players and a HOF coach in Poppovich too. Also those Bird n Magic teams faced a lot more competition.  Kobe sorry but he’s not a top 5 player he’s never won a playoff round w/out an elite big man and he had two in Gasol & Bynum for the last 2 titles.  Also he’s been swept out of the playoffs far too much with Shaq even.  That 3rd title was tainted and belongs to the Kings if not for the refs.  He’s been playing since 96 and obviously its taking a toll on his body now and its pretty safe to say he wont’ win another title, MVP or scoring title again.  He also said he has no rival though Ray Allen, Tmac, Ginobili were great in their prime they didn’t sustain it and Tmac couldn’t stay healthy. Meanwhile someone like MJ had rivals like Dumars, Drexler, Miller, Richmond just at SG and could’ve had more with Petrovic, Penny Hardaway if things went differently. 

The position title is overrated Lebron if he continues this pace for 3-4 yrs will be considered the best SF ever esp. if he wins another ring or 2.  You can’t tell me if he was at PF he wouldn’t be considered the best PF of all time when he done with his career.  He’s already considered top 5 overall by some long time sports talk hosts because of his versatility and since he plays more defense than guys like Magic. I think its too early to put him in your top 10 but if he wins at least 4 Championships it will be hard to argue with 6 Finals and probably 6-7 MVPs.  If tha happens I’d bump Bird from my top 5 and make it Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Lebron, Kareem. 

[NYK2010Participant]

None of us saw Wilt, Russell, Oscar, West, Kareem or other old school players in their prime i’m assuming.

For some that don’t know Kareem made All NBA teams when Centers like Wilt, Russell, Cowens, McAdoo, Olajuwon, Wilt, Reed, Moses Malone, Walton, Parish, Lanier, Thurmond were in the league and they all made the HOF.

Very few of you saw Magic, Bird, Jordan, Moses, Olajuwon play in the 80s or early 90s.

My top 5 would include Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Kareem and Bird not specifically in that order but close.

6-10 Olajuwon, West, Magic, Oscar, Duncan also not in that order.. 

11-20 Kobe, Shaq, Moses Malone, Jerry West, Pettit, Cousy, Elgin Baylor, Havlicek, Lebron, Elvin Hayes, similar to what order I’d rank them except Lebron who’ll end up top 5 or10.

21-30 Cowens, Stockton, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Isaiah Thomas, Sam Jones, Barry, Maravich, Dr. J, Drexler

31-40 Robinson, Ewing, Pippen, KG, Dirk, Iverson, Walt Frazier, Rich Barry, Willis Reed, Dominique Wilkins

41-50 Worthy, Kidd, Parish, Arizin, Thurmond, Debusschere, Mchale, Mikan, Lucas, Cunningham

51-60 Artis Gilmore, Wade, Walton, Lenny Wilkens, Dennis Rodman, Dave Bing, Greer, Earl Monroe, Lanier, Wes Unseld

61-70 Billy Sharman, Nate Archibald, Adrian Dantley, Bob McAdoo, Bellamy, Dumars, Mitch Richmond, Stokes, David Thomspon, Schayes

71-80 Grant Hill, Wilkes, Dennis Johnson, Steve Nash, Tony Parker, Pierce, Ray Allen, CP3, Dan Issel, Reggie Miller

The whole greatest PF of all time doesn’t mean a lot.  Why because all those Centers if they played PF would be the greatest ever.  How many All NBA defensive teams did Kareem make, hell Bird even made a couple. I know people will says Bird played w/McHale, Parish and Magic played with Kareem & Worthy.  Don’t forget Duncan played with Robinson, Ginobili, Parker, Horry who was more clutch than most role players and a HOF coach in Poppovich too. Also those Bird n Magic teams faced a lot more competition.  Kobe sorry but he’s not a top 5 player he’s never won a playoff round w/out an elite big man and he had two in Gasol & Bynum for the last 2 titles.  Also he’s been swept out of the playoffs far too much with Shaq even.  That 3rd title was tainted and belongs to the Kings if not for the refs.  He’s been playing since 96 and obviously its taking a toll on his body now and its pretty safe to say he wont’ win another title, MVP or scoring title again.  He also said he has no rival though Ray Allen, Tmac, Ginobili were great in their prime they didn’t sustain it and Tmac couldn’t stay healthy. Meanwhile someone like MJ had rivals like Dumars, Drexler, Miller, Richmond just at SG and could’ve had more with Petrovic, Penny Hardaway if things went differently. 

The position title is overrated Lebron if he continues this pace for 3-4 yrs will be considered the best SF ever esp. if he wins another ring or 2.  You can’t tell me if he was at PF he wouldn’t be considered the best PF of all time when he done with his career.  He’s already considered top 5 overall by some long time sports talk hosts because of his versatility and since he plays more defense than guys like Magic. I think its too early to put him in your top 10 but if he wins at least 4 Championships it will be hard to argue with 6 Finals and probably 6-7 MVPs.  If tha happens I’d bump Bird from my top 5 and make it Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Lebron, Kareem. 

[ThepessimestParticipant]

I find it funny for those who talk Kobe over Duncan on the basis of "winning". With all due respect to Kobe and Duncan; BOTH have won. But when I evaluate winning I look at consistency. I don’t think Duncan has ever been on a team that went to the lottery. I also feel like Duncan plays with the agendy of winning and not accumulating stats or proving his "individual greatness". Because of Duncan’s unselfishness and greatness the Spurs have been able to continue winning even after Duncan left his prime because he does not demand that in order to win I have to get mine. That mentality was at the root of the problem last year with Dwight and Kobe and that team finishing as a 7th seed. Kobe basically told Dwight I’m going to continue getting my 30….figure out a way to contribute on your own. Poor leadership (yes I know Dwight can pout, etc. but this is the 3rd big man that left LA not liking to play with Kobe). This is something very small but also very important when you are ranking players in that top 10.

And I think people confuse excitement with greatness. Was Kobe really greater than Duncan? Was he really more skilled than Duncan as someone said above me? Or was he just more fun to watch because his game was more pleasing to the eye? And does Duncan play the game to win as opposed to trying to get 25-30 every night? Two different things.

When Kobe had to be the guy after Shaq left he really struggled to get his team to win. He got stats but the losses piled up. And although I will admit he didn’t play with great talent; as a supposed top 5 all time great (by some of you’lls standards) in his prime the thing that stood out the best is how he never made anyone better. His way of solving problems was to simply do it himself.

I have never seen a player play WITH Kobe and think…man he looks good because of Kobe or this team over-achieves because of Kobe’s leadership. Never.

I’ve seen Lebron do it in Cleveland with the Ira Newble’s and Eric Snow’s and Sasha Pavlovic’s of the world.

I saw Duncan do it on those Spurs’ teams that didn’t have much offensive fire power and everyone knew he was getting the ball yet the Spurs still were there at the end.

Kobe? I saw Kobe get his stats and then demand the Lakers go get him help or he would leave. 

Last but not least… I will never forget watching the 2004 NBA Finals: LA vs. Detroit and watching Kobe essentially sabotage the Lakers beating the Pistons because of his personal agenda. I will never forget that series. Kobe refused to pass and his only agenda was to prove "HIS" point…whatever point that was. And it got the Lakers beat.

Again….. losing is one thing but losing because of your selfishness and arrogance matters.

Give me Duncan.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

[llperez]

I find it funny for those who talk Kobe over Duncan on the basis of "winning". With all due respect to Kobe and Duncan; BOTH have won. But when I evaluate winning I look at consistency. I don’t think Duncan has ever been on a team that went to the lottery. I also feel like Duncan plays with the agendy of winning and not accumulating stats or proving his "individual greatness". Because of Duncan’s unselfishness and greatness the Spurs have been able to continue winning even after Duncan left his prime because he does not demand that in order to win I have to get mine. That mentality was at the root of the problem last year with Dwight and Kobe and that team finishing as a 7th seed. Kobe basically told Dwight I’m going to continue getting my 30….figure out a way to contribute on your own. Poor leadership (yes I know Dwight can pout, etc. but this is the 3rd big man that left LA not liking to play with Kobe). This is something very small but also very important when you are ranking players in that top 10.

——kobe has missed the playoffs once in 17 seasons and that was only after both he and odom went down with month long injuries at the same time after the all-star break and the lakers fell out of the top 8. To say its funny that people would use kobe’s 1 extra championship as evidence of winning and then immediately follow it up with kobe missing the playoffs once in 17 seasons as an argument for Duncan is hypocritical at best. And kobe tried to get Dwight involved. Dwight isn’t doing anything this year in Houston he didn’t do last season offensive wise. His shot attempts, ft attempts, fg% and ppg are all right in line with last season. He just isn’t a go to scorer when playing with superstar wings.

And I think people confuse excitement with greatness. Was Kobe really greater than Duncan? Was he really more skilled than Duncan as someone said above me? Or was he just more fun to watch because his game was more pleasing to the eye? And does Duncan play the game to win as opposed to trying to get 25-30 every night? Two different things

—-kobe was more skilled in every regard minus being tall. He guarded the other teams best wing. He scored at a rate that hasn’t been seen since the 80’s when league scoring was up. He has every tool with his ball handling and left hand and post game and footwork.

 

When Kobe had to be the guy after Shaq left he really struggled to get his team to win. He got stats but the losses piled up. And although I will admit he didn’t play with great talent; as a supposed top 5 all time great (by some of you’lls standards) in his prime the thing that stood out the best is how he never made anyone better. His way of solving problems was to simply do it himself.

I have never seen a player play WITH Kobe and think…man he looks good because of Kobe or this team over-achieves because of Kobe’s leadership. Never.

I’ve seen Lebron do it in Cleveland with the Ira Newble’s and Eric Snow’s and Sasha Pavlovic’s of the world.

I saw Duncan do it on those Spurs’ teams that didn’t have much offensive fire power and everyone knew he was getting the ball yet the Spurs still were there at the end.

Kobe? I saw Kobe get his stats and then demand the Lakers go get him help or he would leave

—–he never made anyone better? brian cook, smush parker, sasha vujacic, all benefitted from getting wide open looks and were out of the league basically after leaving kobe. Trevor ariza has spoken publicly about his development from playing with kobe. I think you have blinders on and see what you want to see. And kobe demanded help, threatened to leave after 3 straight years of the lakers not adding anyone significant and trying to sell the local media that vlad radmanvovic was the big game changer they needed. Then kobe calls them out and they add a star in pau and boom, 3 straight trips to the finals. Yeah, what a jerk kobe was for doing that. You know, holding management to high expectations like that to allow the team to win rings.

Last but not least… I will never forget watching the 2004 NBA Finals: LA vs. Detroit and watching Kobe essentially sabotage the Lakers beating the Pistons because of his personal agenda. I will never forget that series. Kobe refused to pass and his only agenda was to prove "HIS" point…whatever point that was. And it got the Lakers beat.

Again….. losing is one thing but losing because of your selfishness and arrogance matters

——ive heard lots of ridicule for kobe on that series, But you are honestly the first person I have ever heard say he played with an agenda and refused to pass. He played 46 minutes a game in those finals and shot the ball 22.6 times, not exactly chucking it. 4.4 assists for a team that had shaq getting doubled every time he touched it and the shooters were all cold. Kobe led the lakers in shot attempts and scoring in the first rd, the second rd and the western finals. Nobody had a problem with it.  He was only selfish in the finals apparently because he struggled. Keep in mind, for such a loser kobe is in your eyes, he beat Duncan 4-2 in the playoffs over their careers. And its funny that you remember kobe’s struggles so well, but it wasn’t long ago (2012) that Duncan was averaging 12 points vs the grizz while getting lit up by Zach Randolph and getting beat in the first round of the playoffs. If kobe did that, he would get murdered by his critics.

 

[llperez]

I find it funny for those who talk Kobe over Duncan on the basis of "winning". With all due respect to Kobe and Duncan; BOTH have won. But when I evaluate winning I look at consistency. I don’t think Duncan has ever been on a team that went to the lottery. I also feel like Duncan plays with the agendy of winning and not accumulating stats or proving his "individual greatness". Because of Duncan’s unselfishness and greatness the Spurs have been able to continue winning even after Duncan left his prime because he does not demand that in order to win I have to get mine. That mentality was at the root of the problem last year with Dwight and Kobe and that team finishing as a 7th seed. Kobe basically told Dwight I’m going to continue getting my 30….figure out a way to contribute on your own. Poor leadership (yes I know Dwight can pout, etc. but this is the 3rd big man that left LA not liking to play with Kobe). This is something very small but also very important when you are ranking players in that top 10.

——kobe has missed the playoffs once in 17 seasons and that was only after both he and odom went down with month long injuries at the same time after the all-star break and the lakers fell out of the top 8. To say its funny that people would use kobe’s 1 extra championship as evidence of winning and then immediately follow it up with kobe missing the playoffs once in 17 seasons as an argument for Duncan is hypocritical at best. And kobe tried to get Dwight involved. Dwight isn’t doing anything this year in Houston he didn’t do last season offensive wise. His shot attempts, ft attempts, fg% and ppg are all right in line with last season. He just isn’t a go to scorer when playing with superstar wings.

And I think people confuse excitement with greatness. Was Kobe really greater than Duncan? Was he really more skilled than Duncan as someone said above me? Or was he just more fun to watch because his game was more pleasing to the eye? And does Duncan play the game to win as opposed to trying to get 25-30 every night? Two different things

—-kobe was more skilled in every regard minus being tall. He guarded the other teams best wing. He scored at a rate that hasn’t been seen since the 80’s when league scoring was up. He has every tool with his ball handling and left hand and post game and footwork.

 

When Kobe had to be the guy after Shaq left he really struggled to get his team to win. He got stats but the losses piled up. And although I will admit he didn’t play with great talent; as a supposed top 5 all time great (by some of you’lls standards) in his prime the thing that stood out the best is how he never made anyone better. His way of solving problems was to simply do it himself.

I have never seen a player play WITH Kobe and think…man he looks good because of Kobe or this team over-achieves because of Kobe’s leadership. Never.

I’ve seen Lebron do it in Cleveland with the Ira Newble’s and Eric Snow’s and Sasha Pavlovic’s of the world.

I saw Duncan do it on those Spurs’ teams that didn’t have much offensive fire power and everyone knew he was getting the ball yet the Spurs still were there at the end.

Kobe? I saw Kobe get his stats and then demand the Lakers go get him help or he would leave

—–he never made anyone better? brian cook, smush parker, sasha vujacic, all benefitted from getting wide open looks and were out of the league basically after leaving kobe. Trevor ariza has spoken publicly about his development from playing with kobe. I think you have blinders on and see what you want to see. And kobe demanded help, threatened to leave after 3 straight years of the lakers not adding anyone significant and trying to sell the local media that vlad radmanvovic was the big game changer they needed. Then kobe calls them out and they add a star in pau and boom, 3 straight trips to the finals. Yeah, what a jerk kobe was for doing that. You know, holding management to high expectations like that to allow the team to win rings.

Last but not least… I will never forget watching the 2004 NBA Finals: LA vs. Detroit and watching Kobe essentially sabotage the Lakers beating the Pistons because of his personal agenda. I will never forget that series. Kobe refused to pass and his only agenda was to prove "HIS" point…whatever point that was. And it got the Lakers beat.

Again….. losing is one thing but losing because of your selfishness and arrogance matters

——ive heard lots of ridicule for kobe on that series, But you are honestly the first person I have ever heard say he played with an agenda and refused to pass. He played 46 minutes a game in those finals and shot the ball 22.6 times, not exactly chucking it. 4.4 assists for a team that had shaq getting doubled every time he touched it and the shooters were all cold. Kobe led the lakers in shot attempts and scoring in the first rd, the second rd and the western finals. Nobody had a problem with it.  He was only selfish in the finals apparently because he struggled. Keep in mind, for such a loser kobe is in your eyes, he beat Duncan 4-2 in the playoffs over their careers. And its funny that you remember kobe’s struggles so well, but it wasn’t long ago (2012) that Duncan was averaging 12 points vs the grizz while getting lit up by Zach Randolph and getting beat in the first round of the playoffs. If kobe did that, he would get murdered by his critics.

 

[ThepessimestParticipant]

Interesting rebuttal….

Yes, he missed the playoffs just once in his career…I understand that. However, finishing with an 8th seed in the West is something that I have never seen Duncan do. Again; we are picking the top 10…so because of that he gets marked off. He also gets marked off because during one of those years vs. Phoenix….the Lakers had a 3-1 lead and blew it. In that 7th game Kobe again played with an agenda. This time refusing to shoot in the entire 2nd half to prove to people that the Lakers couldn’t win without his scoring. Again; when have you seen or heard of Duncan doing this? You haven’t. I repeat…when we are picking top 10 all things are on the table.

Secondly; you claim that he made Brian Cook better. Please show me this. Because I saw Lebron make Mo Williams into an all star. Mo Williams has mostly been a solid starter or back up in his career. In Cleveland he made the all star team. Lebron also got Anderson Verajao a huge contract. Remember how "valuable" Anderson was perceived to be during Lebron’s years? He doesn’t seem so "valuable" anymore does he although he still provides hustle and energy.

So again; you want to provide these examples of guys he made better. I submit to you that he didn’t make them "better". They just benefited from the attention he drew. What’s the difference? Making someone better is an intentional act. Someone benefiting from your existence happens whether you want it to or not.

Lastly, you defend Kobe’s 2004 finals performance. This is how I know you are caping up for Kobe and cannot see the game for the game. You are seeing it through the lens of a fan. Kobe Bryant was nothing short of selfish and into his own world. These are observations by his very own coach Phil Jackson; not me. But let’s provide further proof.

versus Detroint Kobe put up the following shooting performances:

10-27

14-27

4-13

8-25

7-21

So in 3 of the 5 games Kobe launched over 25 shots (while playing with Shaq by the way). He only hit 50% in 1 of those 5 games…and frankly his highest percentage other than the 1 good game was in the 30% range.

But let’s look closer since you "see nothing wrong" with those numbers. 

In the game where Kobe was 10-27 Shaq was 13-16. And this was a trend. In all but 1 game Kobe took more shots than Shaquille O’Neal who shot 60% from the field in that series. And it wasn’t even close. And let me go one step further because shot attempts can’t tell you everything. If you remember; (and if you understand basketball) some of the shots he was taking were horrific type of shots. Falling away from 3 point range over Tyshaun Prince. They weren’t a "good" 20+ shots. They were forced and selfish in nature.

And I will leave you with this quote from Phil who in his book compared Jordan to Kobe. Now you can argue with me…but how can you argue with the man who coached him?

"Jordan was also more naturally inclined to let the game come to him and not overplay his hand, whereas Kobe tends to force the action, especially when the game isn’t going his way. When his shot is off, Kobe will pound away relentlessly until his luck turns. Michael, on the other hand, would shift his attention to defense or passing or setting screens to help the team win the game."

What does that quote say? Kobe will pound away relentlessly until his luck turns? That says Kobe will just keep shooting until his shot falls which is what he did in the Detroit series.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

[llperez]

Yes, he missed the playoffs just once in his career…I understand that. However, finishing with an 8th seed in the West is something that I have never seen Duncan do. Again; we are picking the top 10…so because of that he gets marked off. He also gets marked off because during one of those years vs. Phoenix….the Lakers had a 3-1 lead and blew it. In that 7th game Kobe again played with an agenda. This time refusing to shoot in the entire 2nd half to prove to people that the Lakers couldn’t win without his scoring. Again; when have you seen or heard of Duncan doing this? You haven’t. I repeat…when we are picking top 10 all things are on the table.

——-Duncan never played without a top 30 player like kobe did those years. And tim has lost a couple times in the first round. Kobe went through a complete rebuilding phase in the middle of his career. Duncan has not had to do that.

 

 

 

Secondly; you claim that he made Brian Cook better. Please show me this. Because I saw Lebron make Mo Williams into an all star. Mo Williams has mostly been a solid starter or back up in his career. In Cleveland he made the all star team. Lebron also got Anderson Verajao a huge contract. Remember how "valuable" Anderson was perceived to be during Lebron’s years? He doesn’t seem so "valuable" anymore does he although he still provides hustle and energy.

So again; you want to provide these examples of guys he made better. I submit to you that he didn’t make them "better". They just benefited from the attention he drew. What’s the difference? Making someone better is an intentional act. Someone benefiting from your existence happens whether you want it to or not

———-Your exact words were "I have never seen a player play WITH kobe and think…man he loks good because of Kobe.", you then proceed to contradict yourself and say "they just benefitted form the attention he drew". So did they look better because of kobe or not? You cant argue both ways. As for actually becoming better players, shaq was an mvp with kobe and had his best years, I already brought up ariza, even nick young was saying just two weeks ago how much he has worked on his game this year because kobe is always riding him. And mo will was never an all-star, he was a replacement one season because his team was near the top of the standings and he looked better because LeBron got him open looks just kobe got all those guys I mentioned open looks and then mo will went right back down to earth a year later. How is that any different then smush, shasha and cook having their best careers with kobe then falling back dow to earth once he isn’t there? Vertajao has looked exactly the same since LeBron left minus some injuries. Larry Hughes’s game went down hill with LeBron.

As for the rest of your comments, KObe Bryant shot 23.6 shots per 48 minutes in 2004 vs Detroit. He shot 22.7 per 48 in 2001, 19.1 in 2002, 29.5 in 2009, 24.6 in 2008 and 26.9 in 2010. Those shot attempts per game were right on par with basically all his finals appearances. I didn’t include 2000 because he was injured in that series. He also shot a much higher shot per 48 in all 3 series then shaq leading up to those 2004 finals. There was nothing about that series to scream agenda where he refused to pass. Keep in mind the pistons were one of the all time great defensive teams and they were constantly doubling shaq. He also turned it over 3 times a game for a guy who should never dribble, hit less then 50% of his ft’s. And speaking of ft’s, shaq shot 11 per game, that’s about an extra 5 fg attemptes you are ignoring right there. In fact not one single rotation player outside of shaq shot 40% from the field, kobe was often forced into tough shots. He couldn’t simply hand it to mentally defeated teammates late in the clock and expect them to make plays. The fact he averaged over 4 assists is not bad at all all things considered.

You have tons of great moments in kobe’s carrer to choose from, and you have ignored all  of them and stated that you will never forget those 2004 finals and that defines him as a player to you. Sounds to me like you just don’t like the guy and have your mind made up.

And kobe has always done more then just shoot to win. Those 15 rebounds and locking up rondo in game 7 of  2010 when his shot wasn’t falling showed his willingness to do much more then just shoot. He has constantly made plays on defense and hit the open man in key situations throughout his career.

[llperez]

Yes, he missed the playoffs just once in his career…I understand that. However, finishing with an 8th seed in the West is something that I have never seen Duncan do. Again; we are picking the top 10…so because of that he gets marked off. He also gets marked off because during one of those years vs. Phoenix….the Lakers had a 3-1 lead and blew it. In that 7th game Kobe again played with an agenda. This time refusing to shoot in the entire 2nd half to prove to people that the Lakers couldn’t win without his scoring. Again; when have you seen or heard of Duncan doing this? You haven’t. I repeat…when we are picking top 10 all things are on the table.

——-Duncan never played without a top 30 player like kobe did those years. And tim has lost a couple times in the first round. Kobe went through a complete rebuilding phase in the middle of his career. Duncan has not had to do that.

 

 

 

Secondly; you claim that he made Brian Cook better. Please show me this. Because I saw Lebron make Mo Williams into an all star. Mo Williams has mostly been a solid starter or back up in his career. In Cleveland he made the all star team. Lebron also got Anderson Verajao a huge contract. Remember how "valuable" Anderson was perceived to be during Lebron’s years? He doesn’t seem so "valuable" anymore does he although he still provides hustle and energy.

So again; you want to provide these examples of guys he made better. I submit to you that he didn’t make them "better". They just benefited from the attention he drew. What’s the difference? Making someone better is an intentional act. Someone benefiting from your existence happens whether you want it to or not

———-Your exact words were "I have never seen a player play WITH kobe and think…man he loks good because of Kobe.", you then proceed to contradict yourself and say "they just benefitted form the attention he drew". So did they look better because of kobe or not? You cant argue both ways. As for actually becoming better players, shaq was an mvp with kobe and had his best years, I already brought up ariza, even nick young was saying just two weeks ago how much he has worked on his game this year because kobe is always riding him. And mo will was never an all-star, he was a replacement one season because his team was near the top of the standings and he looked better because LeBron got him open looks just kobe got all those guys I mentioned open looks and then mo will went right back down to earth a year later. How is that any different then smush, shasha and cook having their best careers with kobe then falling back dow to earth once he isn’t there? Vertajao has looked exactly the same since LeBron left minus some injuries. Larry Hughes’s game went down hill with LeBron.

As for the rest of your comments, KObe Bryant shot 23.6 shots per 48 minutes in 2004 vs Detroit. He shot 22.7 per 48 in 2001, 19.1 in 2002, 29.5 in 2009, 24.6 in 2008 and 26.9 in 2010. Those shot attempts per game were right on par with basically all his finals appearances. I didn’t include 2000 because he was injured in that series. He also shot a much higher shot per 48 in all 3 series then shaq leading up to those 2004 finals. There was nothing about that series to scream agenda where he refused to pass. Keep in mind the pistons were one of the all time great defensive teams and they were constantly doubling shaq. He also turned it over 3 times a game for a guy who should never dribble, hit less then 50% of his ft’s. And speaking of ft’s, shaq shot 11 per game, that’s about an extra 5 fg attemptes you are ignoring right there. In fact not one single rotation player outside of shaq shot 40% from the field, kobe was often forced into tough shots. He couldn’t simply hand it to mentally defeated teammates late in the clock and expect them to make plays. The fact he averaged over 4 assists is not bad at all all things considered.

You have tons of great moments in kobe’s carrer to choose from, and you have ignored all  of them and stated that you will never forget those 2004 finals and that defines him as a player to you. Sounds to me like you just don’t like the guy and have your mind made up.

And kobe has always done more then just shoot to win. Those 15 rebounds and locking up rondo in game 7 of  2010 when his shot wasn’t falling showed his willingness to do much more then just shoot. He has constantly made plays on defense and hit the open man in key situations throughout his career.

[ThepessimestParticipant]

Interesting rebuttal….

Yes, he missed the playoffs just once in his career…I understand that. However, finishing with an 8th seed in the West is something that I have never seen Duncan do. Again; we are picking the top 10…so because of that he gets marked off. He also gets marked off because during one of those years vs. Phoenix….the Lakers had a 3-1 lead and blew it. In that 7th game Kobe again played with an agenda. This time refusing to shoot in the entire 2nd half to prove to people that the Lakers couldn’t win without his scoring. Again; when have you seen or heard of Duncan doing this? You haven’t. I repeat…when we are picking top 10 all things are on the table.

Secondly; you claim that he made Brian Cook better. Please show me this. Because I saw Lebron make Mo Williams into an all star. Mo Williams has mostly been a solid starter or back up in his career. In Cleveland he made the all star team. Lebron also got Anderson Verajao a huge contract. Remember how "valuable" Anderson was perceived to be during Lebron’s years? He doesn’t seem so "valuable" anymore does he although he still provides hustle and energy.

So again; you want to provide these examples of guys he made better. I submit to you that he didn’t make them "better". They just benefited from the attention he drew. What’s the difference? Making someone better is an intentional act. Someone benefiting from your existence happens whether you want it to or not.

Lastly, you defend Kobe’s 2004 finals performance. This is how I know you are caping up for Kobe and cannot see the game for the game. You are seeing it through the lens of a fan. Kobe Bryant was nothing short of selfish and into his own world. These are observations by his very own coach Phil Jackson; not me. But let’s provide further proof.

versus Detroint Kobe put up the following shooting performances:

10-27

14-27

4-13

8-25

7-21

So in 3 of the 5 games Kobe launched over 25 shots (while playing with Shaq by the way). He only hit 50% in 1 of those 5 games…and frankly his highest percentage other than the 1 good game was in the 30% range.

But let’s look closer since you "see nothing wrong" with those numbers. 

In the game where Kobe was 10-27 Shaq was 13-16. And this was a trend. In all but 1 game Kobe took more shots than Shaquille O’Neal who shot 60% from the field in that series. And it wasn’t even close. And let me go one step further because shot attempts can’t tell you everything. If you remember; (and if you understand basketball) some of the shots he was taking were horrific type of shots. Falling away from 3 point range over Tyshaun Prince. They weren’t a "good" 20+ shots. They were forced and selfish in nature.

And I will leave you with this quote from Phil who in his book compared Jordan to Kobe. Now you can argue with me…but how can you argue with the man who coached him?

"Jordan was also more naturally inclined to let the game come to him and not overplay his hand, whereas Kobe tends to force the action, especially when the game isn’t going his way. When his shot is off, Kobe will pound away relentlessly until his luck turns. Michael, on the other hand, would shift his attention to defense or passing or setting screens to help the team win the game."

What does that quote say? Kobe will pound away relentlessly until his luck turns? That says Kobe will just keep shooting until his shot falls which is what he did in the Detroit series.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

[ThepessimestParticipant]

I find it funny for those who talk Kobe over Duncan on the basis of "winning". With all due respect to Kobe and Duncan; BOTH have won. But when I evaluate winning I look at consistency. I don’t think Duncan has ever been on a team that went to the lottery. I also feel like Duncan plays with the agendy of winning and not accumulating stats or proving his "individual greatness". Because of Duncan’s unselfishness and greatness the Spurs have been able to continue winning even after Duncan left his prime because he does not demand that in order to win I have to get mine. That mentality was at the root of the problem last year with Dwight and Kobe and that team finishing as a 7th seed. Kobe basically told Dwight I’m going to continue getting my 30….figure out a way to contribute on your own. Poor leadership (yes I know Dwight can pout, etc. but this is the 3rd big man that left LA not liking to play with Kobe). This is something very small but also very important when you are ranking players in that top 10.

And I think people confuse excitement with greatness. Was Kobe really greater than Duncan? Was he really more skilled than Duncan as someone said above me? Or was he just more fun to watch because his game was more pleasing to the eye? And does Duncan play the game to win as opposed to trying to get 25-30 every night? Two different things.

When Kobe had to be the guy after Shaq left he really struggled to get his team to win. He got stats but the losses piled up. And although I will admit he didn’t play with great talent; as a supposed top 5 all time great (by some of you’lls standards) in his prime the thing that stood out the best is how he never made anyone better. His way of solving problems was to simply do it himself.

I have never seen a player play WITH Kobe and think…man he looks good because of Kobe or this team over-achieves because of Kobe’s leadership. Never.

I’ve seen Lebron do it in Cleveland with the Ira Newble’s and Eric Snow’s and Sasha Pavlovic’s of the world.

I saw Duncan do it on those Spurs’ teams that didn’t have much offensive fire power and everyone knew he was getting the ball yet the Spurs still were there at the end.

Kobe? I saw Kobe get his stats and then demand the Lakers go get him help or he would leave. 

Last but not least… I will never forget watching the 2004 NBA Finals: LA vs. Detroit and watching Kobe essentially sabotage the Lakers beating the Pistons because of his personal agenda. I will never forget that series. Kobe refused to pass and his only agenda was to prove "HIS" point…whatever point that was. And it got the Lakers beat.

Again….. losing is one thing but losing because of your selfishness and arrogance matters.

Give me Duncan.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

[dcaseParticipant]

Another forum related to top five players of all time and yet several peoples lists do not include Oscar Robertson in the top 5.  There is no way Larry Bird was a better player than the Big O.  It is as if basketball didn’t exist prior to the 80s.  The Big O is arguably the best all around player to ever play.  He was good/great in every facet of the game.  Averaging a triple double in a season will never be achieved again! 

[dcaseParticipant]

Another forum related to top five players of all time and yet several peoples lists do not include Oscar Robertson in the top 5.  There is no way Larry Bird was a better player than the Big O.  It is as if basketball didn’t exist prior to the 80s.  The Big O is arguably the best all around player to ever play.  He was good/great in every facet of the game.  Averaging a triple double in a season will never be achieved again! 

[goldie92689Participant]

 1. MJ

2. KAJ

3. Russell

4. Wilt

5. Magic

6. Bird

7. Shaq

8.Hakeem

9. Oscar

10. Duncan

11. Dr. J

12. Lebron

13. Isaiah

14. Frazier

15. Kobe? 

 

I am going to be negged but really isn’t this arguable? Kobe has a top 10 career but would you take him ahead of any of these players. And we havent spoken about the Barkleys and Wests. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[goldie92689Participant]

 1. MJ

2. KAJ

3. Russell

4. Wilt

5. Magic

6. Bird

7. Shaq

8.Hakeem

9. Oscar

10. Duncan

11. Dr. J

12. Lebron

13. Isaiah

14. Frazier

15. Kobe? 

 

I am going to be negged but really isn’t this arguable? Kobe has a top 10 career but would you take him ahead of any of these players. And we havent spoken about the Barkleys and Wests. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dcaseParticipant]

You are correct……It is arguable.  I am sure a case can be made for each of the guys you have on your list (however some of them wouldn’t be that strong).  IMO Bird is too high and Oscar is way too low. I would like to hear the argument why Dr. J, Isaiah and Frazier are ranked above Kobe.  Why would any of them be ranked ahead of guys like Jerry West and Elgin Baylor (probably the most underrated player in NBA history)?

[dcaseParticipant]

You are correct……It is arguable.  I am sure a case can be made for each of the guys you have on your list (however some of them wouldn’t be that strong).  IMO Bird is too high and Oscar is way too low. I would like to hear the argument why Dr. J, Isaiah and Frazier are ranked above Kobe.  Why would any of them be ranked ahead of guys like Jerry West and Elgin Baylor (probably the most underrated player in NBA history)?

[NYK2010Participant]

No way Dr. J, Frazier and Isiah are better than Kobe or are top 15 players.

Shaq 7th and Duncan 10th but Duncan was a better defender, rebounder and could guard Pfs and Center.

Didn’t even talk abou the free throws, pick n rolls, jump shot difference.

[NYK2010Participant]

No way Dr. J, Frazier and Isiah are better than Kobe or are top 15 players.

Shaq 7th and Duncan 10th but Duncan was a better defender, rebounder and could guard Pfs and Center.

Didn’t even talk abou the free throws, pick n rolls, jump shot difference.

[Author]

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