[princejamesParticipant]

Last year I did a mini Scouting Report On Ben Mclemore, in which I called him the most overrated player in the 2013 draft class. I actually like ben and think that he will have a long career as a solid impact player. But in my opinion he was extremely overhyped last year , because he doesn’t possess the elite skill set you look for in an elite level shooting Guard. He’s talented though, and I expect him to grow into a very impactful and solid role player

My Scouting Report on Ben Mclemore From Last Year : March 28, 2013

I’m still not very impressed with the overall skill level of Ben Mclemore – Why?
1. He really is just a good spot-up shooter who can use his athleticism to be a dynamic finisher in the open court with-in fastbreak offensive opportunities
2. His ability to create space on the perimeter with his offensive footwork ( jabsteps, pumpfakes, stepbacks, 1 to 2 dribble pull-up jumpshot, stepfakes, etc ) is just average
3. His shot creating instincts off the dribble is average
4.His ability to create offense for himself against tough defense is just average
5. If he is not making his jumpshot, he starts to become a average and inefficient scorer who really doesn’t have the all-around offensive skill set that will help him score in a variety of ways
6. At times he struggles finishing around the rim against size, length, contact, and athleticism
7. He doesn’t operate efficiently in traffic as a scorer, ball-handler, or finisher
8. To me he will be a solid pro who impacts the game with his spot-up shooting skills, dynamic athleticism in the open court, and solid defensive skills

NBA Comparison: Courtney Lee / Daequan Cook

http://nbadraft.net/forum/most-overrated-player-nba-draft-2013-class
http://nbadraft.net/forum/sorry-guys-im-not-sold-ben-mclemore-elite-level-shooting-guard-prospect

[omphalosParticipant]

 I agree completely and still believe Shabazz will have a better career than McLemore. 

[omphalosParticipant]

 I agree completely and still believe Shabazz will have a better career than McLemore. 

[Jr. ROXASParticipant]

I agree with you, but this would only be true if shabazz gets more burn in the court. I mean, Ben Mclemore gets a lot of playing time for the kings and hasn’t impressed. In one game where shabazz got a ton of minutes he scored 20 ponts in like 22 mins. Mclemore just looks tentative on the court. He misses wide open shots, doesn’t play with aggresiveness and his dribbling is quite shaky.

 Shabazz plays with a lot more heart and aggresiveness and looks like the more NBA ready player in sample time.

[Jr. ROXASParticipant]

I agree with you, but this would only be true if shabazz gets more burn in the court. I mean, Ben Mclemore gets a lot of playing time for the kings and hasn’t impressed. In one game where shabazz got a ton of minutes he scored 20 ponts in like 22 mins. Mclemore just looks tentative on the court. He misses wide open shots, doesn’t play with aggresiveness and his dribbling is quite shaky.

 Shabazz plays with a lot more heart and aggresiveness and looks like the more NBA ready player in sample time.

[KDThunder35Participant]

I disagree.  Ben McLemore got drafted to the worst possible fit team for his skill set.  McLemore is an outstanding shooter (even though his percentages don’t indicate it this year).  He has a score first point guard in Isaiah Thomas, and a bunch of ME first guys on his team (Rudy Gay, DeMarcus Cousins, Marcus Thornton for the majority of the season, and the list continues).  The Kings don’t have one unselfish player on their team in my honest opinion.

McLemore needs a set-up point guard to be effective.  He is not going to be a number 1 scoring option on a good team.  I think he can end up putting up Kevin Martin type of numbers in the right system with the right players that compliment his skill set.  Kyle Korver is not nearly as talented as McLemore, yet he is having a great year for his standards because Jeff Teague is putting him in a position to score (And Jeff Teague isn’t a premeir setup point guard either).  McLemore just needs a better fit than the Kings, and until he gets that fit he will not reach his potential as an NBA player.

As far as Shabazz goes, I don’t think that he can be better than Ben due to the fact his jump shot needs work, ball handling needs work and his passing needs work.  He is an easy cover for defenses because when help side comes over if he beats his man the kid has tunnel vision and won’t make a pass, more than likely ending up with a highly contested shot.  Shabazz has potential, but I don’t think he has those innate skills that make everyone around him better.

 

 

 

 

[KDThunder35Participant]

I disagree.  Ben McLemore got drafted to the worst possible fit team for his skill set.  McLemore is an outstanding shooter (even though his percentages don’t indicate it this year).  He has a score first point guard in Isaiah Thomas, and a bunch of ME first guys on his team (Rudy Gay, DeMarcus Cousins, Marcus Thornton for the majority of the season, and the list continues).  The Kings don’t have one unselfish player on their team in my honest opinion.

McLemore needs a set-up point guard to be effective.  He is not going to be a number 1 scoring option on a good team.  I think he can end up putting up Kevin Martin type of numbers in the right system with the right players that compliment his skill set.  Kyle Korver is not nearly as talented as McLemore, yet he is having a great year for his standards because Jeff Teague is putting him in a position to score (And Jeff Teague isn’t a premeir setup point guard either).  McLemore just needs a better fit than the Kings, and until he gets that fit he will not reach his potential as an NBA player.

As far as Shabazz goes, I don’t think that he can be better than Ben due to the fact his jump shot needs work, ball handling needs work and his passing needs work.  He is an easy cover for defenses because when help side comes over if he beats his man the kid has tunnel vision and won’t make a pass, more than likely ending up with a highly contested shot.  Shabazz has potential, but I don’t think he has those innate skills that make everyone around him better.

 

 

 

 

[Chilbert arenasParticipant]

That being said I would still think the Cavs should have taken him over Anthony Bennett

[Chilbert arenasParticipant]

That being said I would still think the Cavs should have taken him over Anthony Bennett

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

 Before the season started I compared him to Byron Scott.  

 

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

 Before the season started I compared him to Byron Scott.  

 

[MopgrassParticipant]

Considering the 1st year’s players playing right now, I don’t think we can say anyone messed up too bad in the 1st round. I think Otto Porter was the biggest mistake, but the jury’s even out on him too. When he arrived and said he was afraid of how fast everyone moved in the NBA, I hit my head against the computer screen.

[MopgrassParticipant]

Considering the 1st year’s players playing right now, I don’t think we can say anyone messed up too bad in the 1st round. I think Otto Porter was the biggest mistake, but the jury’s even out on him too. When he arrived and said he was afraid of how fast everyone moved in the NBA, I hit my head against the computer screen.

[thatdude44Participant]

Do you guys think they would have gotten better staying another year in college? I think the media hypes these kids up so much to the point they start believe there own hype. Nothing wrong with believing in your self but there is this little thing called reality and reality is these kids are good but not ready for that leave of competition every night…. in practice, let alone other NBA players in a game…

[thatdude44Participant]

Do you guys think they would have gotten better staying another year in college? I think the media hypes these kids up so much to the point they start believe there own hype. Nothing wrong with believing in your self but there is this little thing called reality and reality is these kids are good but not ready for that leave of competition every night…. in practice, let alone other NBA players in a game…

[For_Never_EverParticipant]

I said he’ll be a athletic Rip Hamilton with defense. I still stand by that. Also everyone that was picked ahead of him other then Victor haven’t proven anyhing. We gotta give that draft at least another year to really see how things shake out, and the guys that haven’t played at all or barely an extra year on that.

[For_Never_EverParticipant]

I said he’ll be a athletic Rip Hamilton with defense. I still stand by that. Also everyone that was picked ahead of him other then Victor haven’t proven anyhing. We gotta give that draft at least another year to really see how things shake out, and the guys that haven’t played at all or barely an extra year on that.

[rileymcshea3Participant]

 He is also on the Kings, who did nothing with Jimmer. The kings will always believe in inefficient scorers that don’t play team ball, kinda like a bunch of JR Smiths. They are like the anti-spurs, but I still like McLemore and his potential. Has such a nice shot that will only get better with repetition. IMO he is in the mold of that Klay Thompson/Bradley Beal type SG that scores without the ball and compliments there PGs.

[rileymcshea3Participant]

 He is also on the Kings, who did nothing with Jimmer. The kings will always believe in inefficient scorers that don’t play team ball, kinda like a bunch of JR Smiths. They are like the anti-spurs, but I still like McLemore and his potential. Has such a nice shot that will only get better with repetition. IMO he is in the mold of that Klay Thompson/Bradley Beal type SG that scores without the ball and compliments there PGs.

[Jester87Participant]

I didn’t like McLemore that much and I thought he was overrated: Ray Allen comparison used to drive me crazy and I never saw superstar potential, at best fringe all star. Nevertheless, I expected something more, Sacramento was supposed to be a nice setting for him: ok, maybe not the best culture, but with many scorers and guys able to create offense he just has to operate off the ball and work as a shooter off screens and on spot ups.  On paper it looked like the perfect task for him, and he’s got a lot of playing time and has been able to play through his mistakes. But his shot hasn’t been as accurate as expected, his basketball IQ has looked pretty low (but that was not a surprise) and he looked so lost on defense that Malone had to remove him from the starting lineup for Marcus Thornton (read again and again and realize how bad you have to be on defense to lose your spot to Marcus Thornton because he’s an upgrade over you).

However, as disappointing as he’s been, I wouldn’t give up on him. Of course I’d put all the superstar talks to rest, but those thinking he could’ve been a superstar were just going too far, he doesn’t have that feel for the game or whatever it is and his game has lots of flaws. But his shot is fundamentally sound and I expect him to be able to have better %s especially from deep. His athleticism is such a big gift and, while I think he’ll never be much of a threat creating off the bounce, he has the tools to become effective on straight line drives, attacking close outs and his body strength could improve allowing him to absorb contact and finish better at the rim (though he doesn’t have many moves there). On defense he lacks smarts and awareness, but the effort is there, so I see upside there too. It doesn’t matter how disappointing he’s been, I still think his ceiling his higher than a Courtney Lee and I’d wait to call him a bust. 

[Jester87Participant]

I didn’t like McLemore that much and I thought he was overrated: Ray Allen comparison used to drive me crazy and I never saw superstar potential, at best fringe all star. Nevertheless, I expected something more, Sacramento was supposed to be a nice setting for him: ok, maybe not the best culture, but with many scorers and guys able to create offense he just has to operate off the ball and work as a shooter off screens and on spot ups.  On paper it looked like the perfect task for him, and he’s got a lot of playing time and has been able to play through his mistakes. But his shot hasn’t been as accurate as expected, his basketball IQ has looked pretty low (but that was not a surprise) and he looked so lost on defense that Malone had to remove him from the starting lineup for Marcus Thornton (read again and again and realize how bad you have to be on defense to lose your spot to Marcus Thornton because he’s an upgrade over you).

However, as disappointing as he’s been, I wouldn’t give up on him. Of course I’d put all the superstar talks to rest, but those thinking he could’ve been a superstar were just going too far, he doesn’t have that feel for the game or whatever it is and his game has lots of flaws. But his shot is fundamentally sound and I expect him to be able to have better %s especially from deep. His athleticism is such a big gift and, while I think he’ll never be much of a threat creating off the bounce, he has the tools to become effective on straight line drives, attacking close outs and his body strength could improve allowing him to absorb contact and finish better at the rim (though he doesn’t have many moves there). On defense he lacks smarts and awareness, but the effort is there, so I see upside there too. It doesn’t matter how disappointing he’s been, I still think his ceiling his higher than a Courtney Lee and I’d wait to call him a bust. 

[Rip255]

2013 is the weakest draft class I can remember, so I feel like the kings got reasonably good value at #7 with McLemore. I’d be surprised if he wasn’t a starter in this league for the next 10 years. 

[Rip255]

2013 is the weakest draft class I can remember, so I feel like the kings got reasonably good value at #7 with McLemore. I’d be surprised if he wasn’t a starter in this league for the next 10 years. 

[JoeWolf1]

 You know I’m a Ben supporter, and not everything you said is incorrect, but how is he the most overrated draft pick?

He’s having a better rookie season than, Anthony Bennett, Otto Porter, Alex Len, and Cody Zeller who were all drafted ahead of him?

He hasn’t had a great rookie year, but he’s 5th among rookie scorers, and is shooting .475% this month since Sacramento traded away Thornton to give him more freedom in their rotation. 

He also hasn’t struggled from a finishing standpoint. Ben’s hitting .594% of his shots from 0-3 feet away from the hoop.

I still think Ben will be a a 15-20 ppg scorer in his prime, people get better. He came in a one trick pony who wasn’t a great ball handler, but guys get better. I think Ben will continue to grow, you may not, but I don’t think you can declare yourself right and Ben "Dequan Cook/Courtney Lee" after 64 games for the Kings. 

It’s just too early to pat yourself on the back, IMO, you also said C.J. Leslie was going to be taken in the lottery, and Nate Wolters would have a better career than Trey Burke or MCW. These guys have a lot of basketball ahead of them.

[JoeWolf1]

 You know I’m a Ben supporter, and not everything you said is incorrect, but how is he the most overrated draft pick?

He’s having a better rookie season than, Anthony Bennett, Otto Porter, Alex Len, and Cody Zeller who were all drafted ahead of him?

He hasn’t had a great rookie year, but he’s 5th among rookie scorers, and is shooting .475% this month since Sacramento traded away Thornton to give him more freedom in their rotation. 

He also hasn’t struggled from a finishing standpoint. Ben’s hitting .594% of his shots from 0-3 feet away from the hoop.

I still think Ben will be a a 15-20 ppg scorer in his prime, people get better. He came in a one trick pony who wasn’t a great ball handler, but guys get better. I think Ben will continue to grow, you may not, but I don’t think you can declare yourself right and Ben "Dequan Cook/Courtney Lee" after 64 games for the Kings. 

It’s just too early to pat yourself on the back, IMO, you also said C.J. Leslie was going to be taken in the lottery, and Nate Wolters would have a better career than Trey Burke or MCW. These guys have a lot of basketball ahead of them.

[princejamesParticipant]

I will humble myself and embrace the reality that sometimes I’m right and sometimes I’m wrong, but you have to learn from your mistakes, if you want to continue to grow and mature in ways that ultimately dictates success. So I will make sure in the future that my ability to evaluate and judge potential, upside, and talent will be at an elite level. Guaranteed!!!!!

Also I do not think that Ben Meclemore will be a bust. I just think that his ability to become an elite player is limited because of his lack of an elite skill set. He’s a great athlete, who has the potential to be a great shooter and a talented defender. But he also possesses a very average understanding and a average skill set within very important needed areas that dictate is ability to be a great shooting guard prospect.

Also I still believe Nate Wolters will be the best point guard from the 2013 draft class. Nate has the needed high skill level, high basketball I.Q., and a strong foundation of craftiness & savvy. That will give him the opportunity to develop into a high quality starting NBA point guard with time and experience.

I was completely wrong about CJ Leslie, In the past I compared him to Darius Miles and Earl Clark. Which are correct comparisons in terms of skill and talent. I love CJ Leslie’s Freakish Athleticism, Offensive Upside, and Defensive Versatility. But he is a tweener, he has a low basketball I.Q., and he doesn’t have a skill set that will allow him to play the power forward or small forward positions at high level in the NBA. But I think that he has the potential to still develop into a solid NBA Player, if he’s willing to work on developing the needed skills and understanding that will help him become a solid NBA player

[princejamesParticipant]

I will humble myself and embrace the reality that sometimes I’m right and sometimes I’m wrong, but you have to learn from your mistakes, if you want to continue to grow and mature in ways that ultimately dictates success. So I will make sure in the future that my ability to evaluate and judge potential, upside, and talent will be at an elite level. Guaranteed!!!!!

Also I do not think that Ben Meclemore will be a bust. I just think that his ability to become an elite player is limited because of his lack of an elite skill set. He’s a great athlete, who has the potential to be a great shooter and a talented defender. But he also possesses a very average understanding and a average skill set within very important needed areas that dictate is ability to be a great shooting guard prospect.

Also I still believe Nate Wolters will be the best point guard from the 2013 draft class. Nate has the needed high skill level, high basketball I.Q., and a strong foundation of craftiness & savvy. That will give him the opportunity to develop into a high quality starting NBA point guard with time and experience.

I was completely wrong about CJ Leslie, In the past I compared him to Darius Miles and Earl Clark. Which are correct comparisons in terms of skill and talent. I love CJ Leslie’s Freakish Athleticism, Offensive Upside, and Defensive Versatility. But he is a tweener, he has a low basketball I.Q., and he doesn’t have a skill set that will allow him to play the power forward or small forward positions at high level in the NBA. But I think that he has the potential to still develop into a solid NBA Player, if he’s willing to work on developing the needed skills and understanding that will help him become a solid NBA player

[JoeWolf1]

Yeah, man, were all wrong from time to time. That’s why "look at me! I’m right!" Posts aren’t a good look on anybody. Especially when they’re premature. Don’t you see how playing wait and see with a player you were high on, like Nate Wolters, and stating how you were right about McLemore being overrated ( even though hes out performing 5 of 6 guys drafted ahead of him ) before either player even has a full season under their belt is extremely contradictory?

Anyways, McLemore has not had a great first year, but when a guy is drafted 7th and he’s literally playing better than all but one guy who was drafted ahead if him, it’s hard for me to concede that you were right about him being the most overrated.

 

 

[JoeWolf1]

Yeah, man, were all wrong from time to time. That’s why "look at me! I’m right!" Posts aren’t a good look on anybody. Especially when they’re premature. Don’t you see how playing wait and see with a player you were high on, like Nate Wolters, and stating how you were right about McLemore being overrated ( even though hes out performing 5 of 6 guys drafted ahead of him ) before either player even has a full season under their belt is extremely contradictory?

Anyways, McLemore has not had a great first year, but when a guy is drafted 7th and he’s literally playing better than all but one guy who was drafted ahead if him, it’s hard for me to concede that you were right about him being the most overrated.

 

 

[tuck243Participant]

Dude got negged 21 times for saying he doesn’t think Ben is an elite level 2 guard and you say he’s wrong for bringing it back up.  

FOH dude.  Give him his credit and move on, don’t belittle the man like you guys already did last year for going against the grain.  You bully.

  

[tuck243Participant]

Dude got negged 21 times for saying he doesn’t think Ben is an elite level 2 guard and you say he’s wrong for bringing it back up.  

FOH dude.  Give him his credit and move on, don’t belittle the man like you guys already did last year for going against the grain.  You bully.

  

[JoeWolf1]

 I can’t disagree without being a bully? Don’t we come on this sites to share opinions and argue ones we don’t agree with? As far as I’m concerned you cant create a pat yourself on the back thread half way into a guy’s rookie year, and expect a love fest and everyone to congratulate you and move on.

i think he’s jumping to conclusions. If he’s right in 3 years, I’ll be the first to tell him I was wrong, but this is premature. I’m sorry you’re so put off by this.

[JoeWolf1]

 I can’t disagree without being a bully? Don’t we come on this sites to share opinions and argue ones we don’t agree with? As far as I’m concerned you cant create a pat yourself on the back thread half way into a guy’s rookie year, and expect a love fest and everyone to congratulate you and move on.

i think he’s jumping to conclusions. If he’s right in 3 years, I’ll be the first to tell him I was wrong, but this is premature. I’m sorry you’re so put off by this.

[tuck243Participant]

This season is almost finished.  To your point about debating someone, there is no longer debate going on here.  Its a bunch of opinions and if you don’t agree, you just neg.  The end.  I called you a bully because that’s what you’re doing.  You have a bunch of "followers" on here that will agree with everything you say.  Regardless if its down the line  and you’re completely wrong, they will continue to follow your lead.  Which in turn, end up being a mass mob effect and a guy gets negged because he thought outside the box.  You can feel like its not your fault that people follow you, but its the truth.  I’ve seen it countless times, not only with you but a few other people too.  

 

You can feel like he’s jumping to conclusions about him.  But I also feel like you guys were jumping to conclusions about Paul George’s abilities too.  Currently he’s right and that’s all that matters.  

 

 PS, you don’t need 3 years to tell if someone has "it" or not.  

 

 

 

[tuck243Participant]

This season is almost finished.  To your point about debating someone, there is no longer debate going on here.  Its a bunch of opinions and if you don’t agree, you just neg.  The end.  I called you a bully because that’s what you’re doing.  You have a bunch of "followers" on here that will agree with everything you say.  Regardless if its down the line  and you’re completely wrong, they will continue to follow your lead.  Which in turn, end up being a mass mob effect and a guy gets negged because he thought outside the box.  You can feel like its not your fault that people follow you, but its the truth.  I’ve seen it countless times, not only with you but a few other people too.  

 

You can feel like he’s jumping to conclusions about him.  But I also feel like you guys were jumping to conclusions about Paul George’s abilities too.  Currently he’s right and that’s all that matters.  

 

 PS, you don’t need 3 years to tell if someone has "it" or not.  

 

 

 

[JoeWolf1]

Dude, I don’t even "neg" people. You can paint whatever picture or narrative of me that you want, but it doesn’t make it true. You’re the one picking a fight, not me. I’ve argued countless times with princejames on this very matter, and he’s more than capable of representing himself.

"You guys", "Paul George"? I don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, but this isn’t basketball related, and if you have a problem with me, that’s your problem. You may think you’re playing Robin Hood or something, but I really don’t care. I don’t think anything I said is on this thread is inflammatory or something princejames is incapable of addressing himself.

[JoeWolf1]

Dude, I don’t even "neg" people. You can paint whatever picture or narrative of me that you want, but it doesn’t make it true. You’re the one picking a fight, not me. I’ve argued countless times with princejames on this very matter, and he’s more than capable of representing himself.

"You guys", "Paul George"? I don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, but this isn’t basketball related, and if you have a problem with me, that’s your problem. You may think you’re playing Robin Hood or something, but I really don’t care. I don’t think anything I said is on this thread is inflammatory or something princejames is incapable of addressing himself.

[tuck243Participant]

The first thing I see in his post last year is -21.  You can feel that it’s not your fault, but you have a voice on here.  You don’t have to agree with it, but you do.  So, what I’m saying is your opinion on THIS thread wasn’t needed.  Why? Because currently what he stated about Ben Mac was right.  You can bring up all these other instances of when he was wrong, but CURRENTLY he’s right.

 

And you’re right, its not about basketball.  It’s about what this site has turned into.  You might not neg people, but your followers do.  And I hate them all for it.  I have no issue with you at all, I think your posts are insightful, but you tend to go with what majority of folks are already thinking.  I’m not saying I or anyone else is better at evaluating talent, but once you post in a public place like this site, you will begin to presuade people’s opinions on a player (its already bad enough that career writers use this site for stuff).   I just feel like its no accountablilty on this site (or quite frankly, in sports journalism nowadays).  You can disagree with someone who did his research, with a simple "I disagree" and give a lazy explanation why.  I don’t agree with that ish at all.  And I truly hate the phantom negs without saying anything.  

So, it bothered me when you just tossed aside that he was right by basically saying "you was wrong before too, don’t make a thread telling us how right you are"…  Its not fair to him, he was negged 21 times for what he said last year.  Now that he’s right, you continue to demean him.  It’s BS…  I’m not coming for you, I’m coming for the lack of accountablilty you guys have.  

 

 

 

 

 

[JoeWolf1]

 I feel like you’re misplacing your frustration. I have a history of debating McLemore with princejames, of course I’m going to chime in and argue a counter point. Sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way, but shit, look where we are now, I only post 5-10 times a week and it certainly isn’t spurred to fuel popular opinion or create a swarm of negs towards someone I disagree with. Most of my recent posts are about guys not even on the mock. I’m tired of this back and forth, I don’t feel like I need to defend myself or my posts any longer.

[JoeWolf1]

 I feel like you’re misplacing your frustration. I have a history of debating McLemore with princejames, of course I’m going to chime in and argue a counter point. Sorry if I rubbed you the wrong way, but shit, look where we are now, I only post 5-10 times a week and it certainly isn’t spurred to fuel popular opinion or create a swarm of negs towards someone I disagree with. Most of my recent posts are about guys not even on the mock. I’m tired of this back and forth, I don’t feel like I need to defend myself or my posts any longer.

[tuck243Participant]

The first thing I see in his post last year is -21.  You can feel that it’s not your fault, but you have a voice on here.  You don’t have to agree with it, but you do.  So, what I’m saying is your opinion on THIS thread wasn’t needed.  Why? Because currently what he stated about Ben Mac was right.  You can bring up all these other instances of when he was wrong, but CURRENTLY he’s right.

 

And you’re right, its not about basketball.  It’s about what this site has turned into.  You might not neg people, but your followers do.  And I hate them all for it.  I have no issue with you at all, I think your posts are insightful, but you tend to go with what majority of folks are already thinking.  I’m not saying I or anyone else is better at evaluating talent, but once you post in a public place like this site, you will begin to presuade people’s opinions on a player (its already bad enough that career writers use this site for stuff).   I just feel like its no accountablilty on this site (or quite frankly, in sports journalism nowadays).  You can disagree with someone who did his research, with a simple "I disagree" and give a lazy explanation why.  I don’t agree with that ish at all.  And I truly hate the phantom negs without saying anything.  

So, it bothered me when you just tossed aside that he was right by basically saying "you was wrong before too, don’t make a thread telling us how right you are"…  Its not fair to him, he was negged 21 times for what he said last year.  Now that he’s right, you continue to demean him.  It’s BS…  I’m not coming for you, I’m coming for the lack of accountablilty you guys have.  

 

 

 

 

 

[For_Never_EverParticipant]

 Paul George is a Star in the league. He is tasked to defend the other team best player and still be the focal point of the offense. He was killing it in the begining of the season and is kinda in a coast mode or slump right now, but he still does everything else. Imagine if he had the mind set lets say James Harden only to score and not play a lick of defense at all. James Harden has all the phyical tools to be a defender but chooses not to care about that side of the game. Harden was a good defender in college and likely HS. Paul George has some of scottie defense abilities and some of McGrady offense.

[For_Never_EverParticipant]

 Paul George is a Star in the league. He is tasked to defend the other team best player and still be the focal point of the offense. He was killing it in the begining of the season and is kinda in a coast mode or slump right now, but he still does everything else. Imagine if he had the mind set lets say James Harden only to score and not play a lick of defense at all. James Harden has all the phyical tools to be a defender but chooses not to care about that side of the game. Harden was a good defender in college and likely HS. Paul George has some of scottie defense abilities and some of McGrady offense.

[tuck243Participant]

I have no issues with Paul George at all,  I like the way his game has progressed.  But honestly, he has a long way to go before you can call him a superstar.  This is the first time he has averaged over 20+ points in his career and I have never seen him dominate on defense to be labeled a superstar defender either.  

I just feel like its very lazy for people to make certain assumptions about one particular player when his numbers doesn’t equate to being that great.  Paul George plays on a team that plays TEAM defense first.  He and Lance is able to guard wing players without getting dominated by them, while Roy Hibbert cleans up what they can’t stop.  The greatest thing about basketball is, it normally evens out anyway.  Rasheed Wallace’s "The ball don’t lie" can be an example here.  Basketball is a complex sport and you have to go through steps before you reach a certain point.  You can’t skip those steps because it will always come back to hunt you.  LeBron James and his lack of a post game for majority of his career is an example here.  With Paul George, he hasn’t done anything but score very well the beginning of the season.  The rest of his career he has shown flashes, but he wasn’t a superstar at all.  I was seeing things like "he’s better than Melo" some people even dared to say he’s going to be better than KD.  I get it though.  Similar to what you are seeing with Joakim Noah in Chicago now.  The Pacers have the best record, so one particular player is the main reason for their success.  The truth is for the Pacers, everyone has improved and they are playing as a team.   For the Bulls, they are just rebounding and playing defense.  Superstars aren’t born superstars until the playoffs, I can’t begin to describe to you how important that is.  You can’t skip these steps man.

  

[princejamesParticipant]

Realistically Paul George is a 2nd or 3rd option on a very good team, because he really doesn’t have the special abilities needed to carry a team on his back to win a championship like Micheal Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille Oneil, or Hakeem Olajuwon. To me he is really a complementary player who fits perfectly in a scheme that’s focused on unselfish offensive execution with-in team play and the utilization of strong team defensive concepts where each player holds their self accountable for missed assignments. For example: he would fit perfectly on a team like the san Antonio spurs. Where each player are coached by Greg Popovich to use their abilities in ways that complement and make those around them better

Paul may not be a superstar, but he is definitely an all-star quality type of player. Paul George actually reminds of a mix between Rudy Gay and Trevor Ariza. In which he has the scoring skills and physical tools of an Rudy Gay, but he also has the defensive instincts, intangibles, and playmaking skills of an Trevor Ariza

[MkadozaParticipant]

 I’m sorry. Paul George is a 1st option on a top 5 team that was one game away from beating the Heat in 7. 

 You mentioned 4 of the top 15 players ever, as a comparision for George, and all 4 have pretty much finished their careers. And you’re saying what a 23 year old doesn’t have? He’s a knockdown shooter from almost every range, and a shutdown defender, team defensive concepts or not (See Jimmy Butler for a similar player defensively) I dont think your too far off with your Rudy Gay/Ariza combo, but if you took both of their best attributes, and combined them in a 23 year with as good physical tools, would that say "Superstar" to you? How many wings out side of Carmelo, Lebron, Durant and Harden are better offensively? Are any of them really better defensively at this point?

[MkadozaParticipant]

 I’m sorry. Paul George is a 1st option on a top 5 team that was one game away from beating the Heat in 7. 

 You mentioned 4 of the top 15 players ever, as a comparision for George, and all 4 have pretty much finished their careers. And you’re saying what a 23 year old doesn’t have? He’s a knockdown shooter from almost every range, and a shutdown defender, team defensive concepts or not (See Jimmy Butler for a similar player defensively) I dont think your too far off with your Rudy Gay/Ariza combo, but if you took both of their best attributes, and combined them in a 23 year with as good physical tools, would that say "Superstar" to you? How many wings out side of Carmelo, Lebron, Durant and Harden are better offensively? Are any of them really better defensively at this point?

[princejamesParticipant]

Realistically Paul George is a 2nd or 3rd option on a very good team, because he really doesn’t have the special abilities needed to carry a team on his back to win a championship like Micheal Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille Oneil, or Hakeem Olajuwon. To me he is really a complementary player who fits perfectly in a scheme that’s focused on unselfish offensive execution with-in team play and the utilization of strong team defensive concepts where each player holds their self accountable for missed assignments. For example: he would fit perfectly on a team like the san Antonio spurs. Where each player are coached by Greg Popovich to use their abilities in ways that complement and make those around them better

Paul may not be a superstar, but he is definitely an all-star quality type of player. Paul George actually reminds of a mix between Rudy Gay and Trevor Ariza. In which he has the scoring skills and physical tools of an Rudy Gay, but he also has the defensive instincts, intangibles, and playmaking skills of an Trevor Ariza

[For_Never_EverParticipant]

Yeah, saying superstars arent born they are made in the playoffs makes perfect sense with Paul George not being a star.  

[For_Never_EverParticipant]

Yeah, saying superstars arent born they are made in the playoffs makes perfect sense with Paul George not being a star.  

[tuck243Participant]

I have no issues with Paul George at all,  I like the way his game has progressed.  But honestly, he has a long way to go before you can call him a superstar.  This is the first time he has averaged over 20+ points in his career and I have never seen him dominate on defense to be labeled a superstar defender either.  

I just feel like its very lazy for people to make certain assumptions about one particular player when his numbers doesn’t equate to being that great.  Paul George plays on a team that plays TEAM defense first.  He and Lance is able to guard wing players without getting dominated by them, while Roy Hibbert cleans up what they can’t stop.  The greatest thing about basketball is, it normally evens out anyway.  Rasheed Wallace’s "The ball don’t lie" can be an example here.  Basketball is a complex sport and you have to go through steps before you reach a certain point.  You can’t skip those steps because it will always come back to hunt you.  LeBron James and his lack of a post game for majority of his career is an example here.  With Paul George, he hasn’t done anything but score very well the beginning of the season.  The rest of his career he has shown flashes, but he wasn’t a superstar at all.  I was seeing things like "he’s better than Melo" some people even dared to say he’s going to be better than KD.  I get it though.  Similar to what you are seeing with Joakim Noah in Chicago now.  The Pacers have the best record, so one particular player is the main reason for their success.  The truth is for the Pacers, everyone has improved and they are playing as a team.   For the Bulls, they are just rebounding and playing defense.  Superstars aren’t born superstars until the playoffs, I can’t begin to describe to you how important that is.  You can’t skip these steps man.

  

[princejamesParticipant]

JoeWolf1 you in particular are too high on Ben Mclemore, you think he has the potential to be an elite player, when it’s extremely obvious that he doesn’t possess an elite skill set. As of today Wednesday March 12, 2014. My talent evaluation of Ben Mclemore is completely correct. he will be a solid pro who impacts the game with his spot-up shooting skills, dynamic athleticism in the open court, and solid defensive skills. And because he can’t create offense for himself at a high level. He will get a majority of his points from running the floor for dunks and lay-ups, cutting to the rim for dunks and lay-ups, receiving passes that lead to spot up jumpers, and making jump-shots coming off screens and pin-downs. He will not be a bust, but he will be a solid and impactful player who’s valuable and efficient if he is used the right way based on his skill level. And thank you tuck243 for defending my expression of integrity ( meaning: values or virtues connecting with honesty, truthfulness and accuracy of one’s actions )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL_3Hd42gQM

[princejamesParticipant]

JoeWolf1 you in particular are too high on Ben Mclemore, you think he has the potential to be an elite player, when it’s extremely obvious that he doesn’t possess an elite skill set. As of today Wednesday March 12, 2014. My talent evaluation of Ben Mclemore is completely correct. he will be a solid pro who impacts the game with his spot-up shooting skills, dynamic athleticism in the open court, and solid defensive skills. And because he can’t create offense for himself at a high level. He will get a majority of his points from running the floor for dunks and lay-ups, cutting to the rim for dunks and lay-ups, receiving passes that lead to spot up jumpers, and making jump-shots coming off screens and pin-downs. He will not be a bust, but he will be a solid and impactful player who’s valuable and efficient if he is used the right way based on his skill level. And thank you tuck243 for defending my expression of integrity ( meaning: values or virtues connecting with honesty, truthfulness and accuracy of one’s actions )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL_3Hd42gQM

[JoeWolf1]

Solid and impact full is fine, I just think there is no way, right now, he’s the most overrated player in this class…especially since the 1st pick is playing like he is ( I’m not counting him out long run ).

[JoeWolf1]

Solid and impact full is fine, I just think there is no way, right now, he’s the most overrated player in this class…especially since the 1st pick is playing like he is ( I’m not counting him out long run ).

[Jester87Participant]

Yep but many easy fast break attempts in that data. He’s shooting 23.4% on drives according to SportVU data on nba.com, so he definitely has problem finishing and eye test match that (and by the way he shoots 50.7% on 0-5 feet attempts which is well beyond league’s 55% average). He lacks creative moves, can’t create separation off the dribble so his close shots are usually heavily contested and he is too thin right now. I don’t think it’s going to be that big of a problem in the future, he definitely has the potential to become better, mostly because he could get stronger and he’s incredibly athletic, but his problem finishing have definitely hurt him this season.

[Jester87Participant]

Yep but many easy fast break attempts in that data. He’s shooting 23.4% on drives according to SportVU data on nba.com, so he definitely has problem finishing and eye test match that (and by the way he shoots 50.7% on 0-5 feet attempts which is well beyond league’s 55% average). He lacks creative moves, can’t create separation off the dribble so his close shots are usually heavily contested and he is too thin right now. I don’t think it’s going to be that big of a problem in the future, he definitely has the potential to become better, mostly because he could get stronger and he’s incredibly athletic, but his problem finishing have definitely hurt him this season.

[Taylor Gang MikeParticipant]

 just watch… him and Ray are gonna be a really good backcourt for the future

[Taylor Gang MikeParticipant]

 just watch… him and Ray are gonna be a really good backcourt for the future

[drpg913Participant]

Not the Best start but Sacremento couldn’t be a great place to play as a rokie. If you watch the film he doesn’t get the ball in the spots that maximize his ability. Boogie almost never passes out of the double team to him and Rudy and Isaih Thomas barely pass period. The Kings are just Pathetic in general and their players don’t complment  each other basketball or personality wise.

[drpg913Participant]

Not the Best start but Sacremento couldn’t be a great place to play as a rokie. If you watch the film he doesn’t get the ball in the spots that maximize his ability. Boogie almost never passes out of the double team to him and Rudy and Isaih Thomas barely pass period. The Kings are just Pathetic in general and their players don’t complment  each other basketball or personality wise.

[tbest23Participant]

The rookie plays for the Kings. Not too many SG’s would flourish in their current system no matter how proficient they are. Unless they’re a solid vet that is OK demanding the ball from the mercurial black hole that plays underneath the rim.

[tbest23Participant]

The rookie plays for the Kings. Not too many SG’s would flourish in their current system no matter how proficient they are. Unless they’re a solid vet that is OK demanding the ball from the mercurial black hole that plays underneath the rim.

[A Real Canadian MountieParticipant]

 I agree with your points on B-mac’s lack of 1-on-1 scoring ability and his suspect handle, but he’s averaging almost 8 points a game (which is good in comparision to most of the 2013 draftees) and his efficiency has been picking up since a little after the All-Star break.

 

He’s certainly no Ray Allen, but i’d seriously like to know how the 7th pick in the draft is overrated in comparision to the 1st overall pick averaging 4.1 points on even worse efficiency. Or how mclemore is overrated compared to otto porter and alex len? He was hyped in the 2013 draft because there was almost no one to really get excited over in the lottery at that time. And while he hasn’t lived up to the lofty expectations, he definetly hasn’t been the biggest dissapointment from the 2013 draft

 

The rookie season isn’t even over yet. Let’s chill on the overrated talks untill the season ends at least. Gotta save something for the off-season.

[A Real Canadian MountieParticipant]

 I agree with your points on B-mac’s lack of 1-on-1 scoring ability and his suspect handle, but he’s averaging almost 8 points a game (which is good in comparision to most of the 2013 draftees) and his efficiency has been picking up since a little after the All-Star break.

 

He’s certainly no Ray Allen, but i’d seriously like to know how the 7th pick in the draft is overrated in comparision to the 1st overall pick averaging 4.1 points on even worse efficiency. Or how mclemore is overrated compared to otto porter and alex len? He was hyped in the 2013 draft because there was almost no one to really get excited over in the lottery at that time. And while he hasn’t lived up to the lofty expectations, he definetly hasn’t been the biggest dissapointment from the 2013 draft

 

The rookie season isn’t even over yet. Let’s chill on the overrated talks untill the season ends at least. Gotta save something for the off-season.

[TRACYSPOONParticipant]

I have watched this guy play for the Cavs, and he is very talented.  He should be starting for them, or at least with some team in the NBA.  Him and Kyrie don’t get along, but you can’t deny that the kid can flat out ball!!!!!!!!!!!! Reminds me of a young D-wade.  Fearless!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TRACYSPOONParticipant]

I have watched this guy play for the Cavs, and he is very talented.  He should be starting for them, or at least with some team in the NBA.  Him and Kyrie don’t get along, but you can’t deny that the kid can flat out ball!!!!!!!!!!!! Reminds me of a young D-wade.  Fearless!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Though I really do not find your scouting report to necessarily be totally omnipotent in reporting why this is so. Not to mention your calling him the "most overrated player in the 2013 Draft" kind of stood out more than anything in your description of his game, much less his comparison. It is one thing for him not to be elite, another thing for him to live up to your expectations and I still very much believe he has a chance to well surpass your comparisons for him. 

Will admit right now, you seem to be right about him not being "elite", though guessing you’re not right about much more than that. If you really wanted to "humble" yourself, than why not just go over every bold prediction you made in this thread?:

http://nbadraft.net/forum/bold-predictions-years-rookie-class

That way you are indeed pointing out, "that sometimes I’m right and sometimes I’m wrong", rather than pretty much saying "look how right I was about a guy having a subpar rookie season as a 7th pick in a draft full of disappointing rookie seasons!" A lot of your points about Ben were as him either being the #1 prospect or pick in the draft. His going #7 makes the "most overrated" thing a lot more difficult. 

It is the guys rookie season. He is not playing well, yet I am not completely giving up on him possibly developing to at least not be a bad 7th pick. Michael Carter-Williams, Trey Burke and Giannis Antetokounmpo are certainly looking good, some may even point to Tim Hardaway Jr., Steven Adams and Mason Plumlee. However, of the guys chosen before him, can you really say anyone besides Victor Oladipo has played much better than he has? To me, that is not screaming overrated. You can be happy with your success, just think you using the "long term" argument with JoeWolf about Nate Wolters and than crowning yourself right about this is kind a double standard.

@tuck: Dude, I know you love call out threads and gloating:

http://nbadraft.net/forum/gloating-it-time

Some people do not love them. Especially when their is at least some debate involved as to how "right" the person really was. It would be one thing if it were just about him being an elite SG prospect, though there were other things said that made it a tad more than about just that. I think JoeWolf said nothing wrong in his posts and to call him a bully just seems to have very little to it.

He did not call him names or use your classic "FOH", which I would view as being much more aggressive than anything in his posts. Call me part of his cult and a neg troll, though the fact he wrote out a response rather than just negging him and moving on seems to completely go against that theory. I think that debate is a huge part of coming here and some people take constructive criticism and respectful disagreement as "hating". It is all in how you look at it, much like how one looks at being negged.

It is just kid of insulting to say someone is responsible for a guy getting negged, especially when you say "you tend to go with what majority of folks are already thinking." Well, that is what a writer does. Just because you do not agree with it or it is the popular opinion, it does not mean he does not provide a different and refreshing viewpoint. While it may not have been the intention of princejames to elicit an emotional response, that is usually what happens in a post that is meant to pat yourself on the back.

Princejames, you at least seem to have a good attitude regarding learning from mistakes and even in your triumphs. Just think this is still definitely debatable and maybe it would have been good to go over everything rather than just point out how right you were in one particular instance. Especially when this seems to be a case where this bold statement seemed to be more about Ben McLemore being called "the most overrated player in the 2013 Draft Class." To me, that is more what one had to explain than his being elite as a rookie. Have seen a lot of posts here about people already doing a "redraft" and calling people busts. As someone who has followed a lot of Drafts over the years, a lot can change after ones rookie season. Look up peoples redrafts one year after a draft. Not always spot on. So, congrats on his not looking elite, just think the jury is out on his being incredibly overrated considering where he was taken.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Though I really do not find your scouting report to necessarily be totally omnipotent in reporting why this is so. Not to mention your calling him the "most overrated player in the 2013 Draft" kind of stood out more than anything in your description of his game, much less his comparison. It is one thing for him not to be elite, another thing for him to live up to your expectations and I still very much believe he has a chance to well surpass your comparisons for him. 

Will admit right now, you seem to be right about him not being "elite", though guessing you’re not right about much more than that. If you really wanted to "humble" yourself, than why not just go over every bold prediction you made in this thread?:

http://nbadraft.net/forum/bold-predictions-years-rookie-class

That way you are indeed pointing out, "that sometimes I’m right and sometimes I’m wrong", rather than pretty much saying "look how right I was about a guy having a subpar rookie season as a 7th pick in a draft full of disappointing rookie seasons!" A lot of your points about Ben were as him either being the #1 prospect or pick in the draft. His going #7 makes the "most overrated" thing a lot more difficult. 

It is the guys rookie season. He is not playing well, yet I am not completely giving up on him possibly developing to at least not be a bad 7th pick. Michael Carter-Williams, Trey Burke and Giannis Antetokounmpo are certainly looking good, some may even point to Tim Hardaway Jr., Steven Adams and Mason Plumlee. However, of the guys chosen before him, can you really say anyone besides Victor Oladipo has played much better than he has? To me, that is not screaming overrated. You can be happy with your success, just think you using the "long term" argument with JoeWolf about Nate Wolters and than crowning yourself right about this is kind a double standard.

@tuck: Dude, I know you love call out threads and gloating:

http://nbadraft.net/forum/gloating-it-time

Some people do not love them. Especially when their is at least some debate involved as to how "right" the person really was. It would be one thing if it were just about him being an elite SG prospect, though there were other things said that made it a tad more than about just that. I think JoeWolf said nothing wrong in his posts and to call him a bully just seems to have very little to it.

He did not call him names or use your classic "FOH", which I would view as being much more aggressive than anything in his posts. Call me part of his cult and a neg troll, though the fact he wrote out a response rather than just negging him and moving on seems to completely go against that theory. I think that debate is a huge part of coming here and some people take constructive criticism and respectful disagreement as "hating". It is all in how you look at it, much like how one looks at being negged.

It is just kid of insulting to say someone is responsible for a guy getting negged, especially when you say "you tend to go with what majority of folks are already thinking." Well, that is what a writer does. Just because you do not agree with it or it is the popular opinion, it does not mean he does not provide a different and refreshing viewpoint. While it may not have been the intention of princejames to elicit an emotional response, that is usually what happens in a post that is meant to pat yourself on the back.

Princejames, you at least seem to have a good attitude regarding learning from mistakes and even in your triumphs. Just think this is still definitely debatable and maybe it would have been good to go over everything rather than just point out how right you were in one particular instance. Especially when this seems to be a case where this bold statement seemed to be more about Ben McLemore being called "the most overrated player in the 2013 Draft Class." To me, that is more what one had to explain than his being elite as a rookie. Have seen a lot of posts here about people already doing a "redraft" and calling people busts. As someone who has followed a lot of Drafts over the years, a lot can change after ones rookie season. Look up peoples redrafts one year after a draft. Not always spot on. So, congrats on his not looking elite, just think the jury is out on his being incredibly overrated considering where he was taken.

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