[valentine]

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=4718857&categoryid=2459788

Why is ESPN even talking about this? There are a couple of good white players in the NBA. Because it’s a black league- they call racism?

Come on, White players are given chances and they crushed some GM’s.

[JNixonParticipant]

I think that you just take the best players available. McAlarney has a sweet jumper, one of the best shooters I’ve ever seen, but he would be a terrible defender even if he tried his hardest at the NBA level. That’s why he’s not a player in the L, he’s too big a liability on D because he’s too slow and unathletic.

[QHaynes20]

Thank you.

I mean…Adam Morrison was a top 5 pick. J.J. Redick was a lotto pick. These guys failed.

Hinrich was a top 10 pick, Collison was a top lotto pick. Come on

[MagikKnickParticipant]

Simply put, White players have failed when given the opportunity

Joe Alexander
Adam Morrison
JJ Redick
Luke Jackson
Robert Swift
Kris Humphires
Nick Collison
Luke Ridnour
BJ Mullens

All white lottery picks, that have disappointed expectation…..
The jury is still out for some of them, but future isnt looking too bright

So, to say that “white players havent been given the opportunity” is not a legit arguement

[thunderforthewinParticipant]

BJ mullens given the opportunity????

you must crazy hes got like 48 mins court time this whole season, and is now in the dleague

the words when he was drafted was long term project, so its stupid to expected results immediatly

[MagikKnickParticipant]

“The jury is still out for some of them, but future isnt looking too bright”

Do people ever read the entire thing I write?

[RalwarezParticipant]

Simply put:

White players, who passed when given the opportunity:

Dirk Nowitzki
Tony Parker
Manu Ginobili
Jason Kidd
Hedo Turkoglu
Andrea Bargnani
Steve Nash
Andris Biedrinsh
Chris Kaman
Andrei Kirilenko
Kevin Love
Omri Casspi
Rudy Fernandez
Jose Calderon
etc. etc. etc.

vs black players who failed given the opportunity:

Michael Olowokandi
Jordan Hill
Patrick O´Bryant
Sean May
Joey Graham
Shaun Livingston
Josh Childress
TJ Ford
Dajuan Wagner
Kwame Brown
Eddie Griffin
Rodney White
Darius Miles
Keyon Dooling
Jonathan Bender
etc etc etc

Does´nt matter what color you are, if you have what it takes, then you´re on board. It´s simple as that.

[MagikKnickParticipant]

White Players =/= International Players

[B-ball fanParticipant]

I think any stigma there is comes from the media and fans, not from teams. As has been pointed out, many white American players have been given possibly a better chance than they deserved. Teams want to win. The media and fans always characterize white players as unathletic and poor defensively. And that is often true and justified. ESPN shouldn’t gripe about this. White Americans aren’t at a disadvantage.

[JNixonParticipant]

The vast majority of the players you listed where international Ralwarez

[gregoden08Participant]

International is a race?

[Meditated StatesParticipant]

is good. Chase Budinger would have gone real soon if he was not white, but the american white players have not turned out to be much more than servicable not superstars. I do think Love is legit and Chase got hurt by being white though. Let a brother have his hops, and J, and come out of Zona go 40 something in the draft. It would not happen. ESPN should shut the @#%* up with this topic 4 real though. Its corny

[THUNDERstruckParticipant]

and if you take the ratio of white players drafted early to the ratio of black players that were drafter early the figures are more staggering

what i mean is like say example – in 3 years 36 black players drafted in the lottery versus the 9 white guys
(assuming there are no international players drafted)
if the past correlates with these drafts at all about 32 of those black guys will become serviceable NBA players as where about 1 or 2 of those white guys would. its not racism its just the GMs i think would rather take athletism over a lot of things. and white guys are usually more fundamental while black guys are more athletic

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

So, MagikKnick, White doesnt describe the color of your skin???

If Dirk isnt white, what is he??

Here is another question:
Since white guys from different countries arent “white,” are guys like Tony Parker, Leandro Barbosa, Mikle Peitrus, black?? Or are they just Foreign??

If they are “black” then you have a double standard. Please dont think I am calling you out or anything, because Im not. I am just using you as an example. Please dont let this turn into something ugly.

[Bryant24Participant]

I mean basketball shouldnt be about race if u can go out their and do good work for your team and help them when it shouldnt matter what color that person is its not the black player faults its the gm’s who draft the player they think can help their team if that player is black then they are black its 2009 not 1963 get off that.

[MagikKnickParticipant]

@8thDeadlySins i understand what your saying with that

But in the video that QHaynes posted, they count White different from International

So…i thought we were all still basing it off of that

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

Ok. My fault. I just feel like it is a double standard. Ya know what Im saying?? IDK about where you live, but where Im from, black and white is pretty much gone. Its a thing of the past. However, I attend a historically black school where all the administration seem to be partial to black students. If you look at our basketball team, I am the “token” white guy on the team. In that regard, I am constantly harassed by the new freshman about being the only white guy. It doesnt bother me because I lead the team in scoring and assist. I am one of the few white players to make it at the school. My point in bringing in my school is, the coach and that administration, the black ones, always comment on me being the only white person around. It is okay for them to do that. It is accepted by the community and the school. The double standard here is if it were a white school that constantly hazed a black player, it would be on sportscenter.

Back to the post, I would still like an answer. Are those players black or international??

[Meditated StatesParticipant]

Topic was about white american players. so thats what most of us were going off of. Yes guys like Dirk are white I mean dude from Germany so he’s white lol kidding. They are black international players. Again the ESPN topic today was talking about white american players.

[Bryant24Participant]

i learned this in history class my teacher told me when america had the slave trade they dropped africans everywhere cuba,europe,all over the world thats why u might assume they are black like when tony parker first came to the league i thought he was black but he isnt u got him michael pietures and players like al horford who are not from the united states but look black like i have cuban in me so when people see me they think im black but im half.

[Meditated StatesParticipant]

Bryant24

[MagikKnickParticipant]

Your 100%, completely understand

But as for the Parker, Barbosa, Peitrus thing, I dont know…
I mean “international” isn’t a race,
in France….a white american wouldnt be known as “international”, he’d be known as American
So, I guess we call them wherever they’re from..
Parker is French
Barbosa is Brazilian
and Peitrus is Guadalopouian(sp?)

…im not sure though, what would you call them?

[Meditated StatesParticipant]

A hatian is Black. Got news for you 2. Dominican republic is connected to Hati so depending on what side your raised on will determine your language spoke. So guys like David Ortiz are black rather they want to admit it or not. Race is your color not your nationality. Nationality would be German 4 Dirk Race for Dirk is white.

[MagikKnickParticipant]

So Tony Parker is what? And Anderson Varejao?

I think it has to be deeper than “black or white”, but you cant call them “international”

[Bryant24Participant]

Im sayin when slaves where briught from africa they where dropped off everywhere so thats why u got people like sammy sosa david ortiz,tony parker, Barbosa, Peitrus, because slaves got shipped everywhere african slaves werent only in united states. I made the top greade in my us hisrtory class I swear to god i know what im talkin about. So what do u consider Usain Bolt is he black? Cause all jamaicans look black

[Bryant24Participant]

Im sayin when slaves where briught from africa they where dropped off everywhere so thats why u got people like sammy sosa david ortiz,tony parker, Barbosa, Peitrus, because slaves got shipped everywhere african slaves werent only in united states. I made the top greade in my us hisrtory class I swear to god i know what im talkin about. So what do u consider Usain Bolt is he black? Cause all jamaicans look black

[Bryant24Participant]

i didnt mean to post the same thing twice

[MagikKnickParticipant]

So you see it as just black or white?

Is ‘hispanic’ or ‘latino’ a race? If you dont think so, What is Carlos Arroyo?

[Meditated StatesParticipant]

Is black to me. Hale Berry has a white mother but she Black to me. Thats what she look like. Jamaica is the country he is from jamaican is his nationality. His race is Black yes he black

[Bryant24Participant]

Yea scout4real is do u see it as black or white then what are indians are they black because they have very dark skin

[Meditated StatesParticipant]

Arroy is Brown yeah thats how I see him

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

I got ya. I just feel like, someone said it earlier, it isnt 1969 anymore. This is 2009. We are supposed to be past the racial thing. I feel like, where Im from, white people are supposed to be past it but black people can say what they want. Ya know, in anatomy, the black human body is identical to the white human body. There is no clear reason that, historically, black people are better athletes. IMO, that is why white player dont always make it. It is a league of athletes now. If you dont have speed, vert, or both, it is a hard road ahead of you. As young children, well where im from, white players are stressed to work on fundamentals and shooting because if you cant do that, and you are white, good luck. I have teammates that dont know anything about basketball, about defensive schemes, and have some of the worst shooting form known to man. They are only on the team because they were track stars in HS. They can fly down the court and rip the rim off. If, as children, everyone was told they are the same. Not that black/white/asian/hispanic whatever, are better at something, this stigma would go away. I thought I was a terrible athlete until I was about 17 years old. I never tried to dunk or fly down the court because I was told I would never keep up. When I finally did it, and worked on it, the gap between me and my more athletic friend shrunk dramatically. Now, in college, I can keep up with everyone we have played and every now and again, I put one down. BTW, im only 6 feet tall. So, all im saying is, where I grew up, it was different. I feel like that is still how it is to most GMs. If you look at them, they are all older and from a different generation. They may never admit it, but they still have a stereotype of every race somewhere in their head. When we, our generation, starts becoming the group leading the bunch, look for the racism and discrimination to disappear from america.

[Meditated StatesParticipant]

They are from Asia and yeah their brown

[Meditated StatesParticipant]

Call em like I see em and color mean nothing at all to me don’t care what people see. My moms is native american look like Pocahontas, but I am dark skinned like my dad real dark so I am Black period. I accept it no big deal who cares

[MagikKnickParticipant]

Ok, How about Joe Alexander….hes a really athletic white guy, and hes struggling to play for the Bucks…

[ummm…LooneyParticipant]

8th. That last post was great and you are 10000% right man.

[Bryant24Participant]

Yeah i agree 8thdeadlysin said it perfect the league is dominated but athletes so if u arent athlete u aint goin to dominate no matter your skin color and i said that 1969 thing.

[Bryant24Participant]

Joe alexander is athletic but he dont hold defense and shoots to much and he got potential him and chase budinger i see breaking that stereotype

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

Joe is a very raw athlete. He didnt get much of a chance last year because what he brings to the table is exactly what Jefferson did for the team. This year he has a torn hamstring and has yet to play a game because of it. He, like I said earlier, is very very raw. There are tons of athletes that never make it. Him being white is just a coincidence. He, like Julian Wright, like Gerald Green, like James White, like lots of great athletes, need lots of coaching and the right team. Dont give up on Joe just yet. People kept giving Gerald Green chance after chance to prove something and when he couldnt do it, he was no longer signed. He kept getting chances because, like posted earlier, he is a great athlete in a league of athletes.

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

I agree 100% with you rtbt and thats what I was trying to say. You are better with words than I am. IDK who took a point from ya but they are stupid. +1 for you.

[MagikKnickParticipant]

I liked this discussion, very good ‘debate’, need some more quality discussions on this forum like that

[rtbtParticipant]

I’m still amazed by people who don’t understand the difference between culture/nationality and race. But I’ll talk more about that in another message.

In America, black kids grow up idolizing NBA and NFL players so an extremely large percentage play basketball and football and very often excel in those sports. In light of that, it’s no surprise to me that a significant majority of players in both leagues are black. But ask yourself how many American black kids excel at soccer? The answer is very few. You might ask the same question about tennis, gymnastics, hockey, swimming, ice skating, and/or possibly baseball.

If you watch the summer Olympics every 4 years, you will see the high jumpers leaping to astronomical heights, such as 7 feet 9 inches, that are mind blowing. But do you notice that approximately 90% of the world’s great high jumpers are white? Do you ever watch the gymnasts flying through the air, leaping and doing things that defy gravity and almost every one of them is white? But the stereotype that white guys can’t jump is prevalent because of basketball.

This brings me back to my main point, you can’t judge the athletic world solely on the NBA and NFL that are so popular here in America. Culture and opportunity are critical in funneling young guys into certain types of sports.

People assume that only black guys are great athletes. Very often, the number one complaint against white basketball players is the allegation that they aren’t athletic, sometimes that’s true and sometimes it isn’t. But it definitely is a bias. How many times have you heard white guys described as unathletic and they won’t make it in the NBA because they can’t play defense? How often do you hear black guys described in that manner?

The reality is that a fair number of NBA players don’t put forth a major effort on the defensive end of the court and many of them are black. The point here is that we shouldn’t be judging players based upon their race, everyone should be judged using the same set of rules. But unfortunately stereotypes often play a significant factor in player assessments.

[llperez]

for the most part, white players are not as athletic as black players. That’s not racist or biased, that’s just how it is. Basketball is a sport that requires a lot of athleticism thus you don’t have as many white players. In the end though, if a guy can ball teams will give them a look and i don’t think race is an isue in the nba as far players getting a fair chance. If you can ball, you will play.

[llperez]

for the most part, white players are not as athletic as black players. That’s not racist or biased, that’s just how it is. Basketball is a sport that requires a lot of athleticism thus you don’t have as many white players. In the end though, if a guy can ball teams will give them a look and i don’t think race is an isue in the nba as far players getting a fair chance. If you can ball, you will play.

[itsOvaParticipant]

I aint a racist person, but I’ll point one think out
every race have strengths and weaknesses, saying that black players is better than white players is not untrue, but it is really stupid to make that comparison. What about the coaches? How many good black coaches are there in the NBA? How many good white coaches? What would players be without coaches? Would MJ, SHAQ, Kobe, win those championships without Phil?
I’ll just stop here before I piss people off.
My point is, NBA is not all about the players, its like a community, like a machine, like a puzzle, you need different pieces, and each race contribute equally to make the NBA what it is.
Beside, dont forget the dude who invented this game, he is white, the commissioner, he is white. Color dont matter, as long as they are here for the right reason.

[DWadeBIWParticipant]

i believe they were talking mostly about white American players

[JoeWolf1]

First of all, I think Andrea Bargnani is white and Micheal Petrius is black. They are both international players, but I don’t think you can make the arguement that white international players fit into a different category. That being said, if you are talking about American white players then most definatly they are less represented and often less athletic than American black players. However, I think if you are going to look at now compared to 8 years ago American white players are more represented in the NBA than in 2001. Steve Nash won 2 MVP’s and I know he is from Canada, but he went to college 4 years in the US. American white players such as Love, Budinger, C. Anderson, Hinrich, Hawes, Reddick, Collison, and quite a few other players play important roles for their teams. Are pretty much all of the major super stars black? yes. Do black players tend to be better athletes? yes. But I have noticed more white American players entering the NBA than in the past years. But in the end does it matter? Its an interesting topic to compare and debate about, but I don’t care if Kirk Hinrich goes for 30 or Derek Rose as long as my team wins.

[quincey hodges]

as far as the high jump and the other sports..the reason why the guys who do that jump so high is because they work on jumping there whole career. thats what there sport is about..jumping high so they work on there leg muscles. if a white guy were a basketball player and worked on there legs like the white guy that does high jump im pretty sure he would be flying and dunking in basketball like a black player but he doesn’t. when i was growing up playing basketball and as i watch my nephew and friends kids i see how the white kids mostly work on shooting jumpers and the black kids work on trying to dunk and handles. i pretty much feel for the most part we are born on equal terms (with a couple exceptions) but what we work on as we grow up starts to show when we get a certain age. a white kid that works on shooting jumpers by the time he gets to hs ends up being a pretty good jump shooter while the black kid that works on dunk ends up having bounce when he gets to highschool. theres exceptions of course but what you work on tends to determine what you can do later in life. take football for example. alot of black qb in hs run more or just as much as they pass where as alot of white qb’s throw more then they run. when they get to the nfl the qb that has worked on passing most of his life is the better passer where as the qb that has run most of his life becomes the better runner. same thing with the dunkers,shooters, ball handlers in basketball

[quincey hodges]

along the same lines as what i was saying.most black kids growing up dont try to play soccer,hockey,tennis,swimming,high jump. so there are gonna be a low number of success stories with sports like that because the majority of black kids dont try to play it or learn it. ..more white guys play it so more white guys are gonna succeed in it

[JoeWolf1]

Yeah, I was a high jumper and there were very few black high jumpers. It really goes both ways, i got into it because I could jump pretty well, and with training I got a lot better, I agree with Quincey though, it’s just whether you do it or not, I saw Melvin Sanders who played for OSU and the Spurs for a little bit high jump 7’1” in the Kansas State track meet in 99′ and I also saw a 5’10” white guy from a town of 1,500 people high jump 7’3/4”. Its case by case, if you have the right genetics no matter what your race and you want to put in the time and effort you can be very good.

[rtbtParticipant]

One has to be very careful when making that type of generalization. If you say “blacks are better athletes” than someone can use the same logic and say “whites are smarter than blacks”. Do you really want to open that door?

Now getting back to the point of my earlier post in this thread. Almost all of the best American black athletes go into the major sports of basketball or football, so one develops the impression in this country that only blacks are great athletes.

For white kids, they frequently live in many parts of the country where basketball, unlike urban areas, is a minor sport. Therefore, white kids usually go into minor American sports such as soccer, gymnastics, tennis, swimming, ice hockey, high jumping, etc. So when you watch gymnastics, soccer, hockey, tennis, swimming, high jumping, etc. you’ll see that the great athletes are almost always white.

The next time you watch white guys jumping so high that they defy gravity during the gymnastics competition or the high jump in the Olympics, think about my argument above.

Separate Note to “The8thDeadlySin”: Thanks for the kind words.

[Michael.S.Participant]

rtbt, i agree. black people arent born better athletes like some suggest.

[quincey hodges]

are americans view any more narrow then a european country who only play one sport?..i think americans have a broader view then alot of other countries. you look at the olympics and amercans compete in all (i think if not then damn near) all sports. i see alot of other countries who dont have people competing in many events and that dont even have the sport in there country

[rtbtParticipant]

I think Americans have a narrow view of who is and isn’t a great athlete because our two most popular sports are football and basketball. I know baseball is also popular but people don’t seem to think baseball players are great athletes.

[llperez]

im not saying anything crazy when i suggest that most blacks are better athletes then whites. Look around the nba. Look around the nfl. Look around sprinters in the olympics. Look around college bball and football ( 2 sports that require more athleticism then baseball or most other sports). I am white, and I grew up in southern cal where i was a minority and the only white player on a 15 man bball squad my senior year. And the other guys were, for the most part, more athletic. You all acting like that is some crazy or racist bias are being silly. And I disagree with quincey saying that we are born equal but black athletes work on dunks while white guys work on jumpers. I’ve seen countless white guys play sports their whole life and then get out ran or out jumped by a black guy who barely plays. It has also been scientifically proven that black athletes tend to build muscle easier while storing less fat and they have more fast twitch fibers in their legs. That is fact. It ain’t racist and this has nothing to do with bias. If you look around the sports landscape and can’t see that whites are genrally not as athletic as blacks then you are in denial or something.

[rtbtParticipant]

One has to be very careful when making that type of generalization. If you say “blacks are better athletes” than someone can use the same logic and say “whites are smarter than blacks”. Do you really want to open that door where many so called scientific studies allegedly proved whites are smarter?

Making those kind of general comments about groups of people can be dangerous.

[tylerleeftwParticipant]

it all depends man….

[QHaynes20]

How did I get -5 on the 1st 2 post?

It’s the honest truth…not alot of white players had success in the past…10-12 years.

Sorry, also looking for the next ” White Hope” is not helping.

[gatorheelsParticipant]

I wonder why there are never any White players that are in the mold of someone like an Anthony Randolph or John Henson, etc…? You never see any long athletic versatile white players.  At least I haven’t seen that in college basketball from what I can remember.  

[llperez]

rtbt, blacks being more athletic has been talked about for decades if not centuries, so I don’t think I’m saying anything crazy or crossing any lines. Also, unlike suggesting whites are smarter then blacks like you are doing, there really is nothing to be offended by when saying blacks are more athleitc. I seriously doubt white, asian, hispanic people are gonna lose sleep over that. It’s not insensitive to anyone at all. Now saying someone is smarter, that is offensive and a down right insult, so regardless if it’s true or not, there is no room for it in a basketball chat site. But if you honestly think that white people are just as athletic, then you can feel that way. Meanwhile black athletes will contintue to dominate track and field events like sprinting and jumping, they will continue to play rb, wr, db positions in the nfl and they will routinely be the best atheltes in the nba.

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

Gator, IMO, it goes back to how they were raised. The big, white, players were told they need to bulk up and really hit the boards hard because they werent athletes. Look at Dirk. He is long, fairly athletic when he was younger. Imagine if he had played college ball. Or Bargani. I think its how people perceive races. Like I had said in a post before, the white human body is anatomically exactly the same as the black human body.

[llperez]

not true deadlysin. I read a big study on blacks vs whites athleticly, and two advantages the black athlete has is that they have more fast twitch muscle fibers. Don’t ask me exactly what that is, but apparently it is what you use to change directions and explode with speed or hops. Also, blacks build muscle easier while retaining less fat. Again, not seeing why people would be offended by this stuff. It’s not like it’s a negative to be less athletic or more athletic. Athleticism is a b ig part of sports, but not everything. Put Nash and Nate Robinson on a court together, and I’ll take nash anyday.

[JoeWolf1]

I have heard that arguement, perez, and I’m not sure if it is a proven fact or a theory. Either way, I think blacks probably produce more elite athletes as far as speed and jumping ability go, a lot of top white athletes are big strong guys who are more athleteic than a lot of the black population without being able to jump out of the gym such as Bogut, Hansbrough, Harangody, Harpring, and others. To be in the NBA is such a genetic chance combined with years of practice and the state of mind to get it all together and for certain as is evident by the black to white ratio in the NBA and NFL that black American men fit that criteria more than white American men, but a lot of people don’t realize that Kirk Hinrich has a 33.5” max vert and Tyler Hansbrough’s is 34” these so called “bottom teir” white athletes are better basketball players than 99% of the population and although they can’t slap the top of the backboard like Dwight Howard doesn’t mean they are un athletic.

[llperez]

joewolf, never said they were “unathletic” far from it. Anyone in the nba is gonna be athletic. Also, there are many white players who are more ahtletic then black players. There are lots of things to take into consideration with how players grow and develope and play. But if you take a look at the majority of athletes who are different races like asian, white, or hispanic, black athletes tend to be more athletic. Just playing sports my whole life, I’ve seen it first hand.

[JoeWolf1]

I know you didn’t, perez, that wasn’t directed at you. As I said in my post I agree that black americans fit the athletic criteria more than white men, I too have seen it first hand, but I feel there is still a stigma that white players are unathletic, I was just saying there are different types of athletic, a guy who has a 28” vert and can bench 330 pounds is athletic, just like a guy who has a 42” vert no matter if its comparint Matt Harpring to Vince Carter or Joey Dorsey to Joe Alexander

[llperez]

rtbt, i hear what you are saying. But I like to think that people on here are responsible enough to not get carried away with it. To me, it’s no big deal at all to say that blacks tend to be more athletic then whites. Being too affraid to even discuss such minor topics as that only leads to people holding everything inside because they are too afraid to offend someone. That leads to racial tension as well. To me, there is big difference between discussing a persons iq or finances or social status based on race as oppsed to athletics.

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

No. Im studying to be a doctor my man. The human body is the same across the board. Some individuals have different fast and slow twitch muscles but not an entire race. That is just crazy. It is a theory, not a fact.

[llperez]

i have read that some races are naturally shorter/taller, have more/less body hair, develop muscle faster/slower, store more/less fat, have muscle fibers different then other races, larger head sizes. These are all things that have been studied and reported by scientists. You are telling me that all those studies and scientists are wrong? There is zero difference in body types from any races?

[rtbtParticipant]

what you said is crazy or anything you stated is so outlandish that I don’t understand where you’re coming from, because I do. However, when you say racial grouping is OK for something benign, such as sports, then you open the door wide for people to use the same exact logic for evil. You lose the moral ground because now people can utilize the very same logic you did to claim whites are mentally superior to blacks. It’s a very dangerous, slippery slope.

[llperez]

rtbt, i understand what you are saying, but you are talking about races developing and evolving over milions of years. Who knows where we all originated from, but man kind spread out across the world and evolved based largly on where they are from. So there is some differences genetically in races. For example, and these are things I have read in the past, people from africa don’t have as much body hair or hold fat as easily because it is hotter and there is less need for warmth. Asians developed larger eye lids it is believed to help keep snow from colder climates out of their eyes. I know that sounds strange, but that is how life evolves over millions of years. I’m gonna have to stop talking about this though because this has nothing to do with basketball and I don’t want to get into this discussion any deeper on here.

[rtbtParticipant]

Almost all of the best American black athletes go into the two major popular sports of basketball or football, so one develops the impression in this country that only blacks are great athletes. When Americans reference great athletes they usually single out corner backs, wide receivers, point guards, high flying forwards etc. But that’s only a small part of the universe of athletics.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, when the summer Olympics roll around you see the world’s best high jumpers leaping to astronomical heights such as 7 feet 9 inches and almost all of them are white.

When you watch gymnastics you see white guys leaping off the mat to mind boggling heights as they defy gravity. In the pools, you see white swimmers breaking one world speed record after another.

In the Winter Olympics you see white guys literally flying in speed skating or coming down a mountain at 85 mph.

There are great athletes in a wide variety of sports, many of which aren’t very popular here in America, so we shouldn’t be to quick to make those kind of judgments I’ve seen in this thread because there’s a lot more to the world of sports than basketball and football.

[llperez]

I haven’t seen the high jumps in olympics, but i have seen sprinters, and triple jumps and long jumpers and those all seem to be won by black athletes. Sking, while a sport, is not a test of ones athletic ability. It’s a skill/endurance sport. Swimming is another skill/endurance sport. I’ve seen big fat guys lift weights and throw the shot put. When I talk athleticly gifted, I think ability to run/jump/explode or change direction.

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

Size is a different thing because of natural selection. Those it usually isnt a race that has those differences, its usually people from a select region. If you notice, people are getting taller all around the world. Do you know why? Because height is something that lots of people see as attractive. “Tall, dark, and handsome” is something that people find attractive. The dark refers to skin pigmentation causing the person to tan well. Subconsciously, we see that as a sign of fertility and thats what makes us attracted to that person. The handsome refers to a strong jawline and a symmetrical face and body. All of these are signs of someone being a fertile mate. Do you ever wonder why men like big boobs, or a nice butt, or nice long legs, full lips, ect?? Its because we see those things as attractive or signs of a good mate. Here is an example:

In a primitive tribe, there are 2 classes of people. Hunters and gatherers. In a particular tribe, tribe a, the 2 best hunters in the village are short brothers with big ears. Every week, they bring home a kill to feed their tribe. Naturally, the women of the tribe are going to find them more attractive because of their success. They will want their offspring to be successful as well so they seek out the brothers for mates. After a long long time, what do you think most of the men in that village, baring a few exceptions are going to look like? They will probably be shorter men with larger ears.

In another primitive tribe, there are 2 classes of people. Hunters and gatherers. In this tribe, tribe b, the 2 best hunters are brothers that are very bulky, dark complected, and have small ears. Just like in the first tribe, they bring home a kill every week. What do you think, after a long time, the men of this village are going to look like?? Bulky, dark, and small ears.

I hope you understand what I am saying. Size can differ but the anatomy of the body is the same. Sure some people from a tribe in Africa are going to be tall but its because they think tall=successful. See what Im saying?? That being said, in America, we see great athleticism as a sign of someone being successful at sports. If you are born with it that is amazing, if not then try something else. Sure black people seem to be more athletic, and they may be born with it, but it can be gained by anyone if they work at it. We, as a nation, seem to still see black, white, red, yellow, ect, as a difference in ability and it simply is not true. They human body is anatomically the same across the board except for a few cases. If you look at most athletes, their parents were athletes. It is natural selection. People who are athletes often find athleticism to be attractive. Just like smart people often find intelligence attractive. Hence, most athletes mate with athlete, most smart people mate with smart people. How often do you see a child with a mother that is 400 pounds and a father that is 400 pounds turn out to be an olympic sprinter?? Im gonna go ahead and say it will happen very very very rarely. I hope you understand what I am saying here.

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

If you dont understand, look at some of Darwin’s work. His theory of evolution is a good place to start.

[llperez]

sin-i’m well aware of darwins theories and you are just beating around the issue. You say there are zero differences between races in terms of how the body typically develops. I pointed out studies where the body develops differently depending on the race. I’m well aware this has to do with evolution and such, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

It isnt race may man. I just said it a regional thing. I know plenty of black people who cannot build a bit of muscle and are slow as smell. On the other hand, I know lots of white guys who can lift for a couple weeks and gain 10 pounds. It is more of a regional thing than it is a race thing. It could have alot to do with diet, hygiene, training as a child, and just plain old good luck with the genes.

[JNixonParticipant]

When people say that blacks are better athletes, I believe they mean in terms of running and jumping. You know, things like that. Figure skating and hockey and golf etc etc involve little to no ability to really show an explosive ability to run and jump. I’m in no way trying to down one race or another, but it’s widely known that blacks are better at things were they run and jump most times, while whites are better at things were they get to show things that involve skill alot of times. That’s why blacks make good RB, DB’s and WR’s in football, and whites make good QB’s, Linemen,and Kickers/Punters…

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

So, are you saying that black people are better at things that come natural and white people are better at things that require work?? That makes it sound like you are saying white people are smarter than black people.

[llperez]

rtbt-you’re right, which is why i said i’ll leave out high jumping since i don’t watch it. As for gymnastics, my guess is not too many black people compete in those events so of course the top people are gonna not be black.

sin-you can not seperate region and race. The evolution process does not take place within few hundred years. Yes, over the last 5 centuries, people have been moving all over the world and the whole climate aspect is not as emphasized. But when you look at the millions of years of humans evolving from 3 foot tall ape like creatures to what we have today, black people were developed in africa, white people in europe, asians in asia, and so on. These “races” are one with their up bringing. You can’t just say it’s not about race it’s about where they are from becasue that is the same thing. Races developed due to location and climates around the world. And society is not becoming taller becasue it “looks better” Man kind has been getting taller for millions of years because of eating habits and such that effect muscle/bone growth as well breeding habits.

[JNixonParticipant]

They are better at skill things and things that require attention to detail,while black athletes are better at things that require alot of athleticism and speed.

[rtbtParticipant]

I can’t imagine two sports where explosiveness is as critical as it is in high jumping and gymnastics. When the best athletes in the world leap 7 ft 9 inches off the ground, it is an extremely explosive sport and almost beyond incredible watching a human being jump so high.

When the world’s best gymnasts leap mind boggling heights and do all kinds of flips that defy gravity, they are relying on explosiveness.

Most of the world class elite athletes who rely on explosiveness and jump so high in these two sports are white guys.

Another sport that comes to mind is volleyball.

There are sports other than football and basketball that require jumping and explosiveness.

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

Haha. Ok. This is a pointless argument. Im not going to set here and try to explain to you something you have no clue about. I have spent the last 4 years studying all about this kind of thing. You seem to know what you have seen on the discovery channel and heard in psychology class. For the sake of letting you hold on to your ego, because it seems as if that you cant admit you might even be slightly wrong or even attempt to learn something new, I will say you are right. You are correct about everything. Every race has a different anatomical structure. Black people are more athletic than white people, white people can only do things that are either on ice or that involve wearing tights, asians are the smartest, indians are the dumbest. Your right.

[llperez]

haha, we were having a discussion and it is obvious you got hurt like a little girl because now you need to go with the personal insults and stuff. Grow up kid.

[The8thDeadlySinParticipant]

Your right. Im sry. BTW, what makes you think I am a kid and when did I insult you?

[rtbtParticipant]

Llperez22, I was an anthropology major in college and I can say that purely from a scientific point of view, there is only one race, the human race. Everyone on the planet is part of the same human species as there are no specific biological differences in the world of science.

Having said that, over time we’ve come to accept from a social vantage point that there are 4 racial groups, Caucasians, Asians, blacks, and Indians. But there is really no scientific basis for that because there is no scientific way to always definitively state who is part of a specific group. For example, if someone has a white father and a black mother, are they white or black? Of course in America they are considered black but that is a social definition, it isn’t a scientific definition. Why are they considered black when one of their parents is white? There is no good answer.

[rtbtParticipant]

iguodala9 said, “That’s why blacks make good RB, DB’s and WR’s in football, and whites make good QB’s, Linemen,and Kickers/Punters…”

The statement above is one of the points I’ve been trying to make. Americans understandably use basketball or football as their standard for judging great athletes. In other parts of the world where those two sports aren’t dominate, great athletes go into different sports. Some of them turn into elite high jumpers, volleyball players with 40 inch verticals, and/or gymnasts who defy gravity as they leap incredible heights and do things with their bodies that make you ask if you actually saw what you think you saw.

All of the skills mentioned above require explosiveness and most of them are dominated by white athletes, just as black athletes dominate football and basketball in America.

[JNixonParticipant]

But it’s used in a different light..in the sports you named the athletes us special skates or surfaces to show off their explosiveness. In football and basketball, they use regular shoes and play on surfaces that have very limited enhancements to the players athleticism. I doubt that any skater can run as fast or jump as high as a basketball or football playing athlete if they are on a surface that has little to no effect on how fast they can move or how high they can jump…or if they are wearing tennis shoes or cleats

[JNixonParticipant]

The argument that gymnasts are as athletic as football and basketball players isn’t legit either, as they use surfaces and skates that allow them to jump and skate on something that gives them leaping and speed advantages.

Volleyball players are athletic. I agree with this.

Think of it this way, the better athletes in football and basketball would be great at just about any sport that is played on a normal surface or with normal shoes. The same thing cannot be said for gymnasts and most other sport you mentioned, except maybe volleyball.

[rtbtParticipant]

There are volleyball players with 40 inch verticals who wear sneakers just like basketball players. High jumpers soar as high as 7 feet 9 inches off the ground possibly wearing spikes. It really doesn’t matter what kind of shoes they wear, I have no idea how any human being can jump 7 feet 8 or 9 inches off the ground.

So what does this have to do with the equipment?

I think gymnasts are barefooted, but they still defy gravity and leap to heights that make my jaw drop.

I don’t buy your argument in the previous message.

[quincey hodges]

well of course you cant use the sports you said rtbt because alot of blacks dont even try to play it. you have to use sports where alot of whites and alot of blacks compete in. and swimming high jump soccor just isnt one of them. you cant get a accurate measurement when there is one black guy to every ten white guy playing that particular sport.

answers.com
As a race, blacks have more muscle mass, especially in the lower back, glutes and thighs. But there is more to that explanation also. There are two types of muscle fiber “slow twitch” and “fast twitch”. Slow twitch fibers are slower but are better for endurance activities. Fast Twitch fibers activate quickly and are good for jumping and sprinting, but are not good for endurance activities. The average person has a 50/50 mix of fast and slow twitch muscle fibers in their body, but of course this ratio will vary from individual to individual, depending on genetics, and the effects of long term training.

Blacks of West African descent have predominantly fast twitch fibers in their body. The body composition of fast twitch fibers in this group is as much as 90% to even 100% fast twitch fibers. Ergo, this is why so many blacks are great jumpers and sprinters.

But what about the Kenyan and Ethiopian long distance runners you may ask? These blacks have a good deal of muscle mass as well, and long legs. But these blacks are of East African descent and do not have the predominantly fast twitch fibers in their body as the blacks of West African descent. And because of their lifestyle growing up in East Africa (long distance running, high grain and cereal diet) have developed slow twitch endurance fibers as a long term result of their lifestyle and training.

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