[AderitoParticipant]

I actually wasn’t going to bother with this, because I already realize if your opinion doesn’t agree with the consensus, that you’ll get criticized or insulted but I could care less simply because i’m bored.

 

Dirk Nowitzki has proven time after time that he’s one of the upper top 15 most IMPACTFUL players to play this game yet he continues to be underrated because people will say "player A is the more "complete" player so he’s automatically better" when in fact that’s not always the case. Dirk’s not a great defender. He never was, and never will be, but understand, I weigh IMPACT heavier than "completeness".

The Mavs were a dreadful franchise during the 90s, then ever since Dirk became an allstar/ all nba performer, they won 50 games a season for 11 straight seasons, plus the playoffs. The only players to accomplish this were Tim Duncan, Bill Russell, and Magic Johnson. They each had at least two all nba/ allstar performers (Manu, Parker, Robinson, Cousy, Havlicek, Kareem, Worthy, etc) PLUS solid role players, while Dirk spent his prime years (04-11) doing it with solid role players WITHOUT the two side stars.

In 2006, Dirk Nowitzki took a team to the finals that had no business being there just judging by the roster alone. Howard and Terry were his best players, but after that, Dampier was his starting center, Harris was a 2nd year PG, and the rest of his players consisted of an older Stackhouse, Diop, Adrian Griffin, Darrell Armstrong, and Keith Van Horn. In fact, the Spurs team that the Mavs beat that year had a better supporting cast surrounding Duncan, plus Dirk had a sprained ankle during the series.

In 2007, Dirk led the Mavs to 67 wins. But the key thing about that, is Dirk also led the NBA in PER, and had the second highest plus/ minus rating (how far the teams production drops when Dirk sits, to when he plays) in the ENTIRE NBA. That proves there is no near 70 win team in NBA history that was that heavily dependent on one player.

Lastly, in 2011, the Mavs team went 2-7 when Dirk got injured, and with him the SAME team won an NBA title. Which player in NBA history has ever made that large a difference for a CHAMPIONSHIP team? Dirk spent his entire prime years leading his team to 50-67 wins, with 2 finals appearances with supporting casts that consisted of a mixture of good-average-mediocre role players. The one time he was surrounded by role players that played defense, he won a title, defeating teams that were more stacked, had home court advantage, and or favorites.

Dirk’s one of the 10 most clutch, pressure game, big game playoff performers the league has ever seen: -Career elimination games: 28.7ppg, 11.7rpg, 49%fg, 39%3pt, 89%ft (Basically a 50/40/90 in big games, that’s insane). -NBA Record 14 30+ point elimination games (no player accomplished this).

-One of 5 players in NBA history to win a title without a second allstar player.
-One of 3 players in NBA history to make 2 finals without a second All Nba Performer.
-Ranked 10th in all-time-scoring -First European player in the starting five of an All-Star-Game: 2007
-One of two players in the NBA with 150 three-pointers and 100 blocks in a single season: 2001
-One of only four players with an NBA Playoff career average of 25 ppg and 10 rpg (25.9 ppg, 10.3 rpg, May 5, 2012)
-One of six members of the 50–40–90 club: 2007
-One of eleven players to have been NBA Champion, NBA regular season MVP, NBA Finals MVP and a 10× NBA All-Star
-One of only three players to surpass the mark of 1,000 in both three-pointers and blocks for the career
-One of only nine players to surpass the marks of 25,000 in points and 9,000 in rebounds for the career

1.) With all this said, imagine his career if he played with allstars, superstars, all nba players like other greats.

2.) Despite all of this, there are still people who will say Dirk doesn’t belong in the top 5 PF’s or 15 player of all time, KG and Duncan are miles better, and he’s "not complete" enough. C’mon now… you have to be able to win a title without a second star player to be considered "miles" better than Dirk. Dirk’s the 2nd best PF to play the game, and an upper top 15 all-time player in a fair rating system.

[King CaluchaParticipant]

Well… I wouldn’t put him there, but sure one could make a case for him. I do not think it’s a crime… it’s debatable at least.

[King CaluchaParticipant]

Well… I wouldn’t put him there, but sure one could make a case for him. I do not think it’s a crime… it’s debatable at least.

[mcbaileyParticipant]

 So…not only do you think that he’s a top 15 player, but you think he’s in the UPPER top 15? You’re factoring in his one championship waaaay too heavily.

[mcbaileyParticipant]

 So…not only do you think that he’s a top 15 player, but you think he’s in the UPPER top 15? You’re factoring in his one championship waaaay too heavily.

[theballerwayParticipant]

Its the other side of the ball that might cloud peoples view of him as a player. He just doesnt have that defensive reputatiuon to match his scoring brilliance.

Based on production from a pts and rebounds he compares favorably though. Also been winning for a good while now.

Definately debateable but the ‘all-time’ list is long. In the Modern era though definately top 15

[theballerwayParticipant]

Its the other side of the ball that might cloud peoples view of him as a player. He just doesnt have that defensive reputatiuon to match his scoring brilliance.

Based on production from a pts and rebounds he compares favorably though. Also been winning for a good while now.

Definately debateable but the ‘all-time’ list is long. In the Modern era though definately top 15

[Jr. ROXASParticipant]

 Wellhe did play in some super stacked teams in the early 2000’s. Especially that team in the early 2000’s where they freakin Antawn Jamison from the bench. Then you got their own version of big three with finley and nash and him. Even with the departure of Nash or Jamison Cuban ALWAYS seems to make it up with guys such as Terry and Stackhouse.

 Seriously those Mavs teams in the 2000’s were stacked. I don’t think Dirk really lacked that much help. Good points and effort on your write-up though. Always had Dirk in my top 3 fave players list haha.

[Jr. ROXASParticipant]

 Wellhe did play in some super stacked teams in the early 2000’s. Especially that team in the early 2000’s where they freakin Antawn Jamison from the bench. Then you got their own version of big three with finley and nash and him. Even with the departure of Nash or Jamison Cuban ALWAYS seems to make it up with guys such as Terry and Stackhouse.

 Seriously those Mavs teams in the 2000’s were stacked. I don’t think Dirk really lacked that much help. Good points and effort on your write-up though. Always had Dirk in my top 3 fave players list haha.

[AderitoParticipant]

Nowitzki’s defense has always been criticized since he’s been in the league (unfairly, since he was an above-average defender in his prime, but I digress), but this season he’s been more than adequate. Even though Dallas has one of the worst defenses in the league, little of that has to do with Nowitzki – who isn’t a defensive anchor by any means, but was thrust into the role due to lack of depth. Dallas was lacking of a consistent center has Carlisle was relying heavily on Nowitzki. Even though he lacks the athleticism and quickness that many steadfast defenders rely on, Nowitzki is still a long, big body, with crafty hands – all of which allows him to guard players one-on-one and in the post effectively by interrupting their shots with his length (ranked 4th in the league in defending the ISO, and 27th in defending the post). He’s also an incredibly cerebral defender, relying heavily on his instincts, scouting reports, and basketball IQ to succeed on the defensive end.

[AderitoParticipant]

Nowitzki’s defense has always been criticized since he’s been in the league (unfairly, since he was an above-average defender in his prime, but I digress), but this season he’s been more than adequate. Even though Dallas has one of the worst defenses in the league, little of that has to do with Nowitzki – who isn’t a defensive anchor by any means, but was thrust into the role due to lack of depth. Dallas was lacking of a consistent center has Carlisle was relying heavily on Nowitzki. Even though he lacks the athleticism and quickness that many steadfast defenders rely on, Nowitzki is still a long, big body, with crafty hands – all of which allows him to guard players one-on-one and in the post effectively by interrupting their shots with his length (ranked 4th in the league in defending the ISO, and 27th in defending the post). He’s also an incredibly cerebral defender, relying heavily on his instincts, scouting reports, and basketball IQ to succeed on the defensive end.

[RUDEBOY_Participant]

very hard to place dirk in the top 15 when legends like dr j.,olajuwon,jerry west and oscar robertson are considered just outside the top 10..dirk wont be replacing any of those guys…nor will he be ranked ahead of kobe,duncan or lebron, all 3 might be in the conversation for top 10 one day..

…28-45 i think is dirk’s range…

[RUDEBOY_Participant]

very hard to place dirk in the top 15 when legends like dr j.,olajuwon,jerry west and oscar robertson are considered just outside the top 10..dirk wont be replacing any of those guys…nor will he be ranked ahead of kobe,duncan or lebron, all 3 might be in the conversation for top 10 one day..

…28-45 i think is dirk’s range…

[AderitoParticipant]

from the players that played in 2000´s I think that Only Lebron, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq were better than him…. For the all time list I thnk that the guys who above him are: -Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -Wilt Chamberlain -Magic Johnson -Michael Jordan -Bill Russell -LeBron James -Shaquille O’Neal -Oscar Robertson -Tim Duncan -Larry Bird -Kobe Bryant -Jerry West -Hakeem Olajuwon -Karl Malone

[dcaseParticipant]

I would have Elgin Baylor, Barkley, and Dr J. ahead of him as well.

[AderitoParticipant]

Dirk vs Dr.J = http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/e/julius_erving_vs_dirk_nowitzki.htm Dirk vs Barkley = http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/b/charles_barkley_vs_dirk_nowitzki.htm Dirk vs Elgin Baylor = http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/b/elgin_baylor_vs_dirk_nowitzki.htm

[AderitoParticipant]

Dirk vs Dr.J = http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/e/julius_erving_vs_dirk_nowitzki.htm Dirk vs Barkley = http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/b/charles_barkley_vs_dirk_nowitzki.htm Dirk vs Elgin Baylor = http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/b/elgin_baylor_vs_dirk_nowitzki.htm

[dcaseParticipant]

I would have Elgin Baylor, Barkley, and Dr J. ahead of him as well.

[AderitoParticipant]

from the players that played in 2000´s I think that Only Lebron, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq were better than him…. For the all time list I thnk that the guys who above him are: -Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -Wilt Chamberlain -Magic Johnson -Michael Jordan -Bill Russell -LeBron James -Shaquille O’Neal -Oscar Robertson -Tim Duncan -Larry Bird -Kobe Bryant -Jerry West -Hakeem Olajuwon -Karl Malone

[AderitoParticipant]

Its sad when you see the “American Experts” ranking guys like Scottie Pippen, Jason Kidd, John Stockton, Allen Iverson, Dwyane Wade, Steve Nash and others above him only because he is not american. like the SLAM 500 Greatest NBA Players of All Time that ranked Dennis Rodman, Gary Payton and some others above him 😀

[kazamParticipant]

 You do realize Steve Nash is Canadian, right?

[kazamParticipant]

 You do realize Steve Nash is Canadian, right?

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

Its sad when you see the “American Experts” ranking guys like Scottie Pippen, Jason Kidd, John Stockton, Allen Iverson, Dwyane Wade, Steve Nash and others above him only because he is not american.
———————————————————————————————

That’s where you’re completely off base. It’s fine if you choose to mention Dirk as a top 15 player all time on your list but to dismiss guys like Stockton, Pippen, Kidd etc and say that they only get placed ahead of him because they’re American is ridiculous.

Stockton was one of the greatest passers all time, one of the greatest ball hawks of all time, and a highly efficient scorer and defender.

Kidd was a dominant passer, rebounder and defender who also developed into an adequate long range shooter in his career, he always had an immediate and powerful impact on every team he played for.

Pippen was the greatest perimeter defender in NBA history, was a terrific passer and was also a very good scorer when given the opportunity to do so.

There are plenty of other players I would place over Nowitzki on an All-Time list; Moses Malone, Bob Petit, Elgin Baylor, Dr J, Rick Barry, John Havlicek, Isiah Thomas, Bob Cousy. I would probably place other guys like David Robinson, Elvin Hayes, Kevin Garnett, Charles Barkley, Dwyane Wade, Walt Frazier just a notch above him as well, although I can realistically see an argument for Nowitzki over some of them.

I would put Nowitzki as a borderline top 30, definite top 35 player all time.

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

Its sad when you see the “American Experts” ranking guys like Scottie Pippen, Jason Kidd, John Stockton, Allen Iverson, Dwyane Wade, Steve Nash and others above him only because he is not american.
———————————————————————————————

That’s where you’re completely off base. It’s fine if you choose to mention Dirk as a top 15 player all time on your list but to dismiss guys like Stockton, Pippen, Kidd etc and say that they only get placed ahead of him because they’re American is ridiculous.

Stockton was one of the greatest passers all time, one of the greatest ball hawks of all time, and a highly efficient scorer and defender.

Kidd was a dominant passer, rebounder and defender who also developed into an adequate long range shooter in his career, he always had an immediate and powerful impact on every team he played for.

Pippen was the greatest perimeter defender in NBA history, was a terrific passer and was also a very good scorer when given the opportunity to do so.

There are plenty of other players I would place over Nowitzki on an All-Time list; Moses Malone, Bob Petit, Elgin Baylor, Dr J, Rick Barry, John Havlicek, Isiah Thomas, Bob Cousy. I would probably place other guys like David Robinson, Elvin Hayes, Kevin Garnett, Charles Barkley, Dwyane Wade, Walt Frazier just a notch above him as well, although I can realistically see an argument for Nowitzki over some of them.

I would put Nowitzki as a borderline top 30, definite top 35 player all time.

[AderitoParticipant]

Just go to http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/b/rick_barry_vs_dirk_nowitzki.htm and compare him with any off those player hahahaha

[AderitoParticipant]

Just go to http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/b/rick_barry_vs_dirk_nowitzki.htm and compare him with any off those player hahahaha

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

Uggh, that’s the problem with talking about something you don’t know…those NBA stats are misleading because Barry played 4 years of his prime dominating the ABA (averaging between 27.7 and 34 PPG each year). He also missed an additional year of his prime due to a contract dispute, when he was 23 and was coming off a season where he had averaged 35.6 PPG and 40.8 PPG in the NBA finals.

Nowitzki has made 4 first team All-NBA selections is his career, Barry was a 5 time All-NBA first teamer AND a 4 time All-ABA first teamer. Barry started off his career as a terrific scorer close to the basket and an excellent rebounder, after a major knee injury in his mid 20s he became more of an outside player and a very good passer. He was also a fantastic ball hawk although the league didn’t keep track of steals until he was 29.

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

Uggh, that’s the problem with talking about something you don’t know…those NBA stats are misleading because Barry played 4 years of his prime dominating the ABA (averaging between 27.7 and 34 PPG each year). He also missed an additional year of his prime due to a contract dispute, when he was 23 and was coming off a season where he had averaged 35.6 PPG and 40.8 PPG in the NBA finals.

Nowitzki has made 4 first team All-NBA selections is his career, Barry was a 5 time All-NBA first teamer AND a 4 time All-ABA first teamer. Barry started off his career as a terrific scorer close to the basket and an excellent rebounder, after a major knee injury in his mid 20s he became more of an outside player and a very good passer. He was also a fantastic ball hawk although the league didn’t keep track of steals until he was 29.

[AderitoParticipant]

Did you know that the 18-Year Old Dirk Nowitzki scored 52 Points against Scottie Pippen…

[AderitoParticipant]

Did you know that the 18-Year Old Dirk Nowitzki scored 52 Points against Scottie Pippen…

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

I heard that Charles Barkley anecdote last year…obviously that’s impressive regardless of the fact that good storytellers like Barkley tend to exaggerate things, but you’re kind of missing the point about my post. My point was that while it’s reasonable to have Nowitzki higher than Pippen it’s ridiculous to assume that anyone that rates Pippen higher does so out of some American bias

For the record I do have Nowitzki higher than Pippen on my all time list. My list of “other guys” I have rated higher was meant to be a response to your earlier list of only 14 players you consider better.

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

I heard that Charles Barkley anecdote last year…obviously that’s impressive regardless of the fact that good storytellers like Barkley tend to exaggerate things, but you’re kind of missing the point about my post. My point was that while it’s reasonable to have Nowitzki higher than Pippen it’s ridiculous to assume that anyone that rates Pippen higher does so out of some American bias

For the record I do have Nowitzki higher than Pippen on my all time list. My list of “other guys” I have rated higher was meant to be a response to your earlier list of only 14 players you consider better.

[AderitoParticipant]

Its sad when you see the “American Experts” ranking guys like Scottie Pippen, Jason Kidd, John Stockton, Allen Iverson, Dwyane Wade, Steve Nash and others above him only because he is not american. like the SLAM 500 Greatest NBA Players of All Time that ranked Dennis Rodman, Gary Payton and some others above him 😀

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

 John Stockton is the NBA’s all time assist and steals champ.  Also played great defense and helped the Jazz to back to back Finals appearances.  Also a gold medal in 1992 although he didn’t play much.

He was the greatest pass-first point guard in history, but he was still a great shooter and a solid scoring option.

 

 

 

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

 John Stockton is the NBA’s all time assist and steals champ.  Also played great defense and helped the Jazz to back to back Finals appearances.  Also a gold medal in 1992 although he didn’t play much.

He was the greatest pass-first point guard in history, but he was still a great shooter and a solid scoring option.

 

 

 

[tuck243Participant]

I don’t think there’s a debate to be had.  We don’t even need to go into his defense, but what about his rebounding?  Dirk has NEVER averaged 10 boards a game in his career (name one top 5 PF that didn’t?).  We’re talking about a 7′ feet, long armed man.  For all his scoring prowess, he has consistently come up short with great supporting casts throughout the years.   You mention KG, but forgot to add that Dirk has played with more All-Stars consistently (BTW I LOATHE KG).  I love Dirk and still think he’s a Top 5 PF today, but let’s be real here, he’s not better than KG career wise. 

You mentioned how "clutch" Dirk is, but majority of his career people called him soft.  Like that 67 games season you pointed out.   Maybe the biggest upset in NBA history happened in the first round of that year.  Or how he allowed D Wade to snatch a Finals from him.  Every player have their faults, but you better be damn sure you also point out the miscues since you decided to make an argument about how great Dirk is.  Especially when you have better two way players at the same position.   Are at least guys that can rebound hell…

 

[tuck243Participant]

I don’t think there’s a debate to be had.  We don’t even need to go into his defense, but what about his rebounding?  Dirk has NEVER averaged 10 boards a game in his career (name one top 5 PF that didn’t?).  We’re talking about a 7′ feet, long armed man.  For all his scoring prowess, he has consistently come up short with great supporting casts throughout the years.   You mention KG, but forgot to add that Dirk has played with more All-Stars consistently (BTW I LOATHE KG).  I love Dirk and still think he’s a Top 5 PF today, but let’s be real here, he’s not better than KG career wise. 

You mentioned how "clutch" Dirk is, but majority of his career people called him soft.  Like that 67 games season you pointed out.   Maybe the biggest upset in NBA history happened in the first round of that year.  Or how he allowed D Wade to snatch a Finals from him.  Every player have their faults, but you better be damn sure you also point out the miscues since you decided to make an argument about how great Dirk is.  Especially when you have better two way players at the same position.   Are at least guys that can rebound hell…

 

[AderitoParticipant]

The 2006 final was rigged we all know that.

Dirk has put a franchise on his back for 14 years. Kobe had Shaq. Then Gasol and Bynum. Duncan had Parker and Ginobli. MJ had Pippen. LeBron had Wade and Bosh. Pierce had KG, Allen and Rondo. Dirk had Tyson Chandler(not all star), a old Kidd (not all star) and a good bench. Just look at the 2005-2006 Mavericks. Outside of Dirk there was, Devin Harris, Erick Dampier, Desgana Diop, Keith Van Horn, Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse, Josh Howard, Marquis Daniels. Without Dirk, that team would be just flat out awful, but with Dirk, he nearly lead them to a championship (Rigged for Miami). If Dirk had just one other star player throughout his entire career, he would have several rings.

You ignored that since Dirk is a perimeter 7 footer, teams have tried to go small against him and lost their size and rebounding advantages, which is what happened to the Lakers in 2011, and the Spurs in 2006 when they played Dallas in the playoffs. Dirk’s floor spacing also creates better passing lanes for his PG’s. Check the numbers of any PG Dirk has played with, and you’ll see their career low turnovers were when they played with Dirk. When Dirk was injured this season the Mavs were 27th in most turnovers, and ever since he returned they’re 7th.

[AderitoParticipant]

The 2006 final was rigged we all know that.

Dirk has put a franchise on his back for 14 years. Kobe had Shaq. Then Gasol and Bynum. Duncan had Parker and Ginobli. MJ had Pippen. LeBron had Wade and Bosh. Pierce had KG, Allen and Rondo. Dirk had Tyson Chandler(not all star), a old Kidd (not all star) and a good bench. Just look at the 2005-2006 Mavericks. Outside of Dirk there was, Devin Harris, Erick Dampier, Desgana Diop, Keith Van Horn, Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse, Josh Howard, Marquis Daniels. Without Dirk, that team would be just flat out awful, but with Dirk, he nearly lead them to a championship (Rigged for Miami). If Dirk had just one other star player throughout his entire career, he would have several rings.

You ignored that since Dirk is a perimeter 7 footer, teams have tried to go small against him and lost their size and rebounding advantages, which is what happened to the Lakers in 2011, and the Spurs in 2006 when they played Dallas in the playoffs. Dirk’s floor spacing also creates better passing lanes for his PG’s. Check the numbers of any PG Dirk has played with, and you’ll see their career low turnovers were when they played with Dirk. When Dirk was injured this season the Mavs were 27th in most turnovers, and ever since he returned they’re 7th.

[TallmanNYCParticipant]

I don’t believe the 2006 finals was rigged. However I will agree that the refs of those games settled on a concept of defensive fouls that basically made it impossible to guard D Wade. Based on the way they called those games, he went to the line about a dozen times per game and basically became unstoppable. The defender couldn’t even be near the guy as he went to the basket or else it became a shooting foul.  

[TallmanNYCParticipant]

I don’t believe the 2006 finals was rigged. However I will agree that the refs of those games settled on a concept of defensive fouls that basically made it impossible to guard D Wade. Based on the way they called those games, he went to the line about a dozen times per game and basically became unstoppable. The defender couldn’t even be near the guy as he went to the basket or else it became a shooting foul.  

[AderitoParticipant]

Kevin Garnett’s title run : 20.4 ppg 10.5 rpg
Dirk Nowitzki’s title run : 27.7 ppg 8.1 rpg

Career Playoff numbers :

Garnett: 19.6 ppg 11.1 rpg in 105 games
Nowitzki :25.9 ppg 10.4 rpg in 124 games

They have faced each other in 02.
Garnett : 24 ppg (42.7%) 18.6 rpg
Nowitzki : 33.3 ppg (53.4%) 15.6 rpg

Nowitzki has better resume as well.

[AderitoParticipant]

Kevin Garnett’s title run : 20.4 ppg 10.5 rpg
Dirk Nowitzki’s title run : 27.7 ppg 8.1 rpg

Career Playoff numbers :

Garnett: 19.6 ppg 11.1 rpg in 105 games
Nowitzki :25.9 ppg 10.4 rpg in 124 games

They have faced each other in 02.
Garnett : 24 ppg (42.7%) 18.6 rpg
Nowitzki : 33.3 ppg (53.4%) 15.6 rpg

Nowitzki has better resume as well.

[HitsterParticipant]

 To sit down and figure out where a guy like Dirk would be on an all time list is fairly hard. My first reaction was that he would be borderline top 15. We all fairly much agree on the guys who are in the top 10 but what order they are in is another story entirely. The further down you go the more subjective it becomes as more players come into consideration.

You have to weigh up Dirk’s lack of elite defensive game against his unique scoring skillset, he has one of the best shooting ranges for a big man ever. Other big guys have scored heavier than Dirk but few if any have had his range. If we were talking purely offensive game Dirk would be a very strong top 15 contender but we have to judge his all round game.

His stats speak for themselves – 10th on the all time points list and likely to go higher, the most prolific 3 point shooting big probably in NBA history, the greatest European NBA player ever. When considering the greatest European player ever Sabonis immediately springs to mind alongside Dirk. 

We can make a strong case for Dirk but we could make a strong case for any number of players.

Having thought about this a bit more I’d put Dirk within the Top 30 easily, possibly top 20 but top 15 may be a stretch.

 

 

 

 

[HitsterParticipant]

 To sit down and figure out where a guy like Dirk would be on an all time list is fairly hard. My first reaction was that he would be borderline top 15. We all fairly much agree on the guys who are in the top 10 but what order they are in is another story entirely. The further down you go the more subjective it becomes as more players come into consideration.

You have to weigh up Dirk’s lack of elite defensive game against his unique scoring skillset, he has one of the best shooting ranges for a big man ever. Other big guys have scored heavier than Dirk but few if any have had his range. If we were talking purely offensive game Dirk would be a very strong top 15 contender but we have to judge his all round game.

His stats speak for themselves – 10th on the all time points list and likely to go higher, the most prolific 3 point shooting big probably in NBA history, the greatest European NBA player ever. When considering the greatest European player ever Sabonis immediately springs to mind alongside Dirk. 

We can make a strong case for Dirk but we could make a strong case for any number of players.

Having thought about this a bit more I’d put Dirk within the Top 30 easily, possibly top 20 but top 15 may be a stretch.

 

 

 

 

[AderitoParticipant]

he is one of the best pure shooters off all time…

[AderitoParticipant]

he is one of the best pure shooters off all time…

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

 He compares pretty well to ANYBODY but there are just so many greats now.  Used to be TOP FIVE, then TOP TEN, now its TOP FIFTEEN basically.

Jordan, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Bird, LeBron, Oscar, Duncan, and Hakeem is a heck of a top ten.  Then top 15 you add guys like Jerry West, Moses Malone, Stockton, Karl Malone, and then maybe Elgin Baylor to round out the Top 15.  You could also argue for Dr. J, Hondo, Sir Charles, and some other guys.

Now that I think about it, Dirk compares very, very favorably to Elgin Baylor — a guy who used to be on everyone’s top ten list.  Elgin had tons of points and boards and several finals appearances — but no titles.  

Dirk can score and he has also had a lot of career rebounds.  Dirk is a better shooter, just a nudge behind Bird (or possibly even better).  Then he has the title, the regular season MVP award and the Finals MVP trophy.  Another guy higher on many lists would be Dr. J.  Ok, Dr. J has one MVP as does Dirk, but Dirk ALSO has a Finals MVP trophy.  

A little higher up the food chain you have Karl Malone who racked up the stats as the Dan Marino of power forwards.  Two MVP’s but no titles.  Dirk has one of each.  

Let’s see where Dirk finishes in terms of raw stats.  He could move up incrementally, solidly into the top 15 maybe.  If he wins ANOTHER title, then he could be in discussion for the TOP TEN.

Ok, Moses Malone put up a TON of stats, he has a few MVP trophies, and was the alpha dog on that famous ’83 Sixers championship team.  But, did he really affect the history of the game more than Dirk?  

It would be great for Dirk’s career if he could win another title, or even get back to the Finals.  Even an All Star Game MVP would help.

Other than that, he can stay healthy, play into his early forties, and continue to rack up the stats.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

 He compares pretty well to ANYBODY but there are just so many greats now.  Used to be TOP FIVE, then TOP TEN, now its TOP FIFTEEN basically.

Jordan, Magic, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Bird, LeBron, Oscar, Duncan, and Hakeem is a heck of a top ten.  Then top 15 you add guys like Jerry West, Moses Malone, Stockton, Karl Malone, and then maybe Elgin Baylor to round out the Top 15.  You could also argue for Dr. J, Hondo, Sir Charles, and some other guys.

Now that I think about it, Dirk compares very, very favorably to Elgin Baylor — a guy who used to be on everyone’s top ten list.  Elgin had tons of points and boards and several finals appearances — but no titles.  

Dirk can score and he has also had a lot of career rebounds.  Dirk is a better shooter, just a nudge behind Bird (or possibly even better).  Then he has the title, the regular season MVP award and the Finals MVP trophy.  Another guy higher on many lists would be Dr. J.  Ok, Dr. J has one MVP as does Dirk, but Dirk ALSO has a Finals MVP trophy.  

A little higher up the food chain you have Karl Malone who racked up the stats as the Dan Marino of power forwards.  Two MVP’s but no titles.  Dirk has one of each.  

Let’s see where Dirk finishes in terms of raw stats.  He could move up incrementally, solidly into the top 15 maybe.  If he wins ANOTHER title, then he could be in discussion for the TOP TEN.

Ok, Moses Malone put up a TON of stats, he has a few MVP trophies, and was the alpha dog on that famous ’83 Sixers championship team.  But, did he really affect the history of the game more than Dirk?  

It would be great for Dirk’s career if he could win another title, or even get back to the Finals.  Even an All Star Game MVP would help.

Other than that, he can stay healthy, play into his early forties, and continue to rack up the stats.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

I’ll assume that the omission of Shaq and Kobe in your top 15 was just an honest mistake…

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

I’ll assume that the omission of Shaq and Kobe in your top 15 was just an honest mistake…

[CU.LIONSParticipant]

Why do posters/fans keep putting players like Jerry West, Baylor, Pettit up high on all-time lists when I am betting NO ONE actually seen them play. There are only so many high light videos/film on these players. And they played WAY back when the NBA was much smaller and far less competitive.

Too much “blind nostalgia” on players from the past.

As for Dirk, it is really hard to place players from 10-20. There are so many close calls. IMO Dirk can be anywhere between 15 and 25

[CU.LIONSParticipant]

Why do posters/fans keep putting players like Jerry West, Baylor, Pettit up high on all-time lists when I am betting NO ONE actually seen them play. There are only so many high light videos/film on these players. And they played WAY back when the NBA was much smaller and far less competitive.

Too much “blind nostalgia” on players from the past.

As for Dirk, it is really hard to place players from 10-20. There are so many close calls. IMO Dirk can be anywhere between 15 and 25

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

Why do posters/fans keep putting players like Jerry West, Baylor, Pettit up high on all-time lists when I am betting NO ONE actually seen them play. There are only so many high light videos/film on these players. And they played WAY back when the NBA was much smaller and far less competitive.
——————————————————————————————————

I might not have seen them play but my dad did, plenty of people who watched the NBA in the 60s are still around.

I actually think it’s more ridiculous that people nowadays rate guys like Wilt, Russell and the Big O so highly while contradictory dismissing players like Petit, Cousy, Havlicek for playing in an inferior era. Those guys dominated the same eras that the previous three did but consistently don’t get the same level of respect.

Obviously tactics and physical body types have evolved but you can only realistically judge players when compared to their own eras. If Lebron James had played in the 50s and 60s he would probably be much smaller without a workout regime and nutritionist and would probably have a different skillset to boot

Also the NBA being smaller would actually make it more competitive…increased teams water down the overall talent level

If you are interested in seeing a few games of these players they are available, for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA8l1Jr7jwc

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

Why do posters/fans keep putting players like Jerry West, Baylor, Pettit up high on all-time lists when I am betting NO ONE actually seen them play. There are only so many high light videos/film on these players. And they played WAY back when the NBA was much smaller and far less competitive.
——————————————————————————————————

I might not have seen them play but my dad did, plenty of people who watched the NBA in the 60s are still around.

I actually think it’s more ridiculous that people nowadays rate guys like Wilt, Russell and the Big O so highly while contradictory dismissing players like Petit, Cousy, Havlicek for playing in an inferior era. Those guys dominated the same eras that the previous three did but consistently don’t get the same level of respect.

Obviously tactics and physical body types have evolved but you can only realistically judge players when compared to their own eras. If Lebron James had played in the 50s and 60s he would probably be much smaller without a workout regime and nutritionist and would probably have a different skillset to boot

Also the NBA being smaller would actually make it more competitive…increased teams water down the overall talent level

If you are interested in seeing a few games of these players they are available, for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA8l1Jr7jwc

[BrentSuriaga01Participant]

 You talked about how underrated dirk was yet you never realized that tim duncan is more underrated. 

[BrentSuriaga01Participant]

 You talked about how underrated dirk was yet you never realized that tim duncan is more underrated. 

[TenSecondTomParticipant]

The argument that "if you don’t have Nowitzki in your top 10-15-20 you have American bias" is pure garbage considering the fact that in 2013, Euroleague players ranked Nowitzki as the no. 5 european player of all-time behind Petrovic, Parker, Sabonis, and Bodiroga. What I will say about Nowitzki is that he is the best big-man shooter of all-time and I don’t think that will change for the foreseeable future. Another positive is that he dominated his way to an NBA championship. With that being said, I don’t think he cracks the top 15 just based on all-around talent (stats can be manipulated to make any kind of argument), and I believe that he is the 4th best European player of all-time behind Petrovic, Sabonis, and Parker.

[AderitoParticipant]

Petrovic, Parker, Sabonis, and Bodiroga higher than Dirk…. enough internet for today

[TenSecondTomParticipant]

hoopshype.com/articles/sierra/drazen-petrovic-the-top-european-player-ever-according-to-eurobasket-players

Professional European Players seem to think so, and I’m sure they’ve studied the games of all these players more than anyone here. Only 2 of 38 Eurobasket players picked Dirk as the Best European Player of All-Time. Half of them put Petrovic in the top 2. Parker was named the best Euro by the most players at 10.

 

 

[TenSecondTomParticipant]

hoopshype.com/articles/sierra/drazen-petrovic-the-top-european-player-ever-according-to-eurobasket-players

Professional European Players seem to think so, and I’m sure they’ve studied the games of all these players more than anyone here. Only 2 of 38 Eurobasket players picked Dirk as the Best European Player of All-Time. Half of them put Petrovic in the top 2. Parker was named the best Euro by the most players at 10.

 

 

[AderitoParticipant]

Petrovic, Parker, Sabonis, and Bodiroga higher than Dirk…. enough internet for today

[TenSecondTomParticipant]

The argument that "if you don’t have Nowitzki in your top 10-15-20 you have American bias" is pure garbage considering the fact that in 2013, Euroleague players ranked Nowitzki as the no. 5 european player of all-time behind Petrovic, Parker, Sabonis, and Bodiroga. What I will say about Nowitzki is that he is the best big-man shooter of all-time and I don’t think that will change for the foreseeable future. Another positive is that he dominated his way to an NBA championship. With that being said, I don’t think he cracks the top 15 just based on all-around talent (stats can be manipulated to make any kind of argument), and I believe that he is the 4th best European player of all-time behind Petrovic, Sabonis, and Parker.

[HaleParticipant]

He’s not top 15 so this thread is pointless.

[HaleParticipant]

He’s not top 15 so this thread is pointless.

[HitsterParticipant]

 The greatest European player ever sub thread is perhaps more interesting, I could not honestly put Tony Parker ahead of Dirk even if he has won 4 titles. If we did that then Tony Parker would be by default within the top 20 to 30 NBA players ever and although he is a superb player I could not put him that high but I would say he’d certainly be in the top 5 European ever.

Drazen Petrovic died tragically young just as he was reaching his peak what he might have done over the next 5 or so years in the NBA will always be one of the great what ifs.

Sabonis would be top 2 in any Euro list I’d compile and I think Pau Gasol could be a contender to round out any top 5.

 

 

[HitsterParticipant]

 The greatest European player ever sub thread is perhaps more interesting, I could not honestly put Tony Parker ahead of Dirk even if he has won 4 titles. If we did that then Tony Parker would be by default within the top 20 to 30 NBA players ever and although he is a superb player I could not put him that high but I would say he’d certainly be in the top 5 European ever.

Drazen Petrovic died tragically young just as he was reaching his peak what he might have done over the next 5 or so years in the NBA will always be one of the great what ifs.

Sabonis would be top 2 in any Euro list I’d compile and I think Pau Gasol could be a contender to round out any top 5.

 

 

[TenSecondTomParticipant]

In regards to the "Best Euro of All-Time" argument, you cannot only look at NBA stats. Petrovic was averaging 34 PPG in 40 minute games at one point in Europe. Complete domination that won’t be matched most likely. And this was before his prime… All you have to do is watch the tape on Sabonis and it’s clear that he was a better player than Dirk. He did the exact same things Dirk could do plus he was the best passing big of his time besides maybe Divac, AND he was a rebounding monster. As for Parker, he beats Nowitzki in championships (the second best thing Dirk has going for him), he has led his country, and has orchestrated the top basketball team over the last decade and a half. That is why I put Nowitzki as the 4th best Euro of All-Time. 

[TallmanNYCParticipant]

Parker is great. But him winning championships one a team with Duncan, Ginobli and Leonard is not some sort of trump card. Dirk’s prime is better than Parker. Both are very good, but Dirk is a better foundation for an NBA team.  

[TallmanNYCParticipant]

Parker is great. But him winning championships one a team with Duncan, Ginobli and Leonard is not some sort of trump card. Dirk’s prime is better than Parker. Both are very good, but Dirk is a better foundation for an NBA team.  

[TenSecondTomParticipant]

In regards to the "Best Euro of All-Time" argument, you cannot only look at NBA stats. Petrovic was averaging 34 PPG in 40 minute games at one point in Europe. Complete domination that won’t be matched most likely. And this was before his prime… All you have to do is watch the tape on Sabonis and it’s clear that he was a better player than Dirk. He did the exact same things Dirk could do plus he was the best passing big of his time besides maybe Divac, AND he was a rebounding monster. As for Parker, he beats Nowitzki in championships (the second best thing Dirk has going for him), he has led his country, and has orchestrated the top basketball team over the last decade and a half. That is why I put Nowitzki as the 4th best Euro of All-Time. 

[TallmanNYCParticipant]

But top 15 is a bridge too far. There are just too many great players. I think he might be underrated. Because yes he has been great. And the stats may even undervalue him because of where you gets his high volume and efficient points. He can score from distance at a good efficiency level and out of a fairly rudimentary play (they just toss it to him in the post and it doesn’t really matter if he has deep position or if the defender has pushed him away from the basket). That is in some ways more valuable than, for example, Hakeem because Hakeem needed good post position to score efficiently.  

I’d say Dirk is better than Karl Malone though. I feel he is overrated. At least by folks who think he is in the running for top PF. 

[TallmanNYCParticipant]

But top 15 is a bridge too far. There are just too many great players. I think he might be underrated. Because yes he has been great. And the stats may even undervalue him because of where you gets his high volume and efficient points. He can score from distance at a good efficiency level and out of a fairly rudimentary play (they just toss it to him in the post and it doesn’t really matter if he has deep position or if the defender has pushed him away from the basket). That is in some ways more valuable than, for example, Hakeem because Hakeem needed good post position to score efficiently.  

I’d say Dirk is better than Karl Malone though. I feel he is overrated. At least by folks who think he is in the running for top PF. 

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