[TRC1991Participant]

Worst start in Knicks history, they run no offense, play no defense, and flat out suck when it comes to chemistry, passing, and everything that’s involved with making a basketball go into the hoop.

Phil Jackson made a mistake with the rookie head coach. Fisher looks lost. 

 

  

[Jr. ROXASParticipant]

 Yup, I don’t get it though with all these recent no experience player to head coach signings. I’d rather have an unknown assistant coach/basketball junkie who had worked their butt off under several head coaches than a player turned coach. I hope this trend won’t continue.

 Where are those guys now like Erik Spoelstra who worked his way up from being a video coordinator working under Pat Riley and who lives and breathes basketball. Gotta give credit where credit is due though for Steve Kerr but he does have a high-caliber coaching staff with him. 

[Jr. ROXASParticipant]

 Yup, I don’t get it though with all these recent no experience player to head coach signings. I’d rather have an unknown assistant coach/basketball junkie who had worked their butt off under several head coaches than a player turned coach. I hope this trend won’t continue.

 Where are those guys now like Erik Spoelstra who worked his way up from being a video coordinator working under Pat Riley and who lives and breathes basketball. Gotta give credit where credit is due though for Steve Kerr but he does have a high-caliber coaching staff with him. 

[B-ball fanParticipant]

As well as knowing your limits.  Jason Kidd, another case of a player going straight from playing to coaching, has been successful largely because he has a great staff and allows experiencedassistant coaches to draw up plays.  And the Bucks’ coaches have implemented rather simple but effective schemes.  The Bucks took 30 games to match their previous season’s win total despite having a quite similar roster.  Yes, Dudley has been an upgrade over Caron Butler, Jerryd Bayless has been and upgrade over Gary Neal and sophomore Giannis has been an upgrade over rookie Giannis, but a huge difference has come in the way the team has moved the ball really well side-to-side and have played aggressive help defense.  

I fear that it was asking a little too much of Derek Fisher to have him come and implement an offense that goes against a lot of the instincts of the players on the roster as a rookie head coach.  Players like Melo, Hardaway, Jr., and Shumpert are not known for being ball-movers.  Their star is not known for his work off-the-ball or for his willingness to pass.  

The Knicks may have been better off installing a simpler offense that placed a greater emphasis on the PnR and spread offense, as that is what the NBA is moving toward and is more easy to install.  Then they could have taken longer to implement Triangle concepts.  Melo is still getting his, but the team is clearly not executing its half court offense well.  

[B-ball fanParticipant]

As well as knowing your limits.  Jason Kidd, another case of a player going straight from playing to coaching, has been successful largely because he has a great staff and allows experiencedassistant coaches to draw up plays.  And the Bucks’ coaches have implemented rather simple but effective schemes.  The Bucks took 30 games to match their previous season’s win total despite having a quite similar roster.  Yes, Dudley has been an upgrade over Caron Butler, Jerryd Bayless has been and upgrade over Gary Neal and sophomore Giannis has been an upgrade over rookie Giannis, but a huge difference has come in the way the team has moved the ball really well side-to-side and have played aggressive help defense.  

I fear that it was asking a little too much of Derek Fisher to have him come and implement an offense that goes against a lot of the instincts of the players on the roster as a rookie head coach.  Players like Melo, Hardaway, Jr., and Shumpert are not known for being ball-movers.  Their star is not known for his work off-the-ball or for his willingness to pass.  

The Knicks may have been better off installing a simpler offense that placed a greater emphasis on the PnR and spread offense, as that is what the NBA is moving toward and is more easy to install.  Then they could have taken longer to implement Triangle concepts.  Melo is still getting his, but the team is clearly not executing its half court offense well.  

[TheArtistPaysthePriceParticipant]

 I actually think it will lend itself to better basketball in the future. Old coaches are slow to change and value players in a different light than there metric stats would lead you. 

These first timers have to rely on metrics because they don’t no what the he!! they are doing, ala Mark Jackson, Derek Fisher and Jason Kidds first year. Remember Kidd was almost laughed out the League but he caught on. Old coaches like Hollins and Byron Scott don’t make have good plans to win games even with all of their knowledge. 

IMO, I hate the weak willed personalities of the Erik Spolstra/Mike Brown/Jacques Vaughn. You can tell they are back room coaches because they could lead a knife outta a wet paper bag. 

 

 

[TheArtistPaysthePriceParticipant]

 I actually think it will lend itself to better basketball in the future. Old coaches are slow to change and value players in a different light than there metric stats would lead you. 

These first timers have to rely on metrics because they don’t no what the he!! they are doing, ala Mark Jackson, Derek Fisher and Jason Kidds first year. Remember Kidd was almost laughed out the League but he caught on. Old coaches like Hollins and Byron Scott don’t make have good plans to win games even with all of their knowledge. 

IMO, I hate the weak willed personalities of the Erik Spolstra/Mike Brown/Jacques Vaughn. You can tell they are back room coaches because they could lead a knife outta a wet paper bag. 

 

 

[CynthiaParticipant]

Yes but Steve Kerr didn’t go straight into coaching right after playing, he’s been an analyst and a GM. He has some well-rounded knowledge of the game as opposed to Fisher who was on an NBA team just last year.

[CynthiaParticipant]

Yes but Steve Kerr didn’t go straight into coaching right after playing, he’s been an analyst and a GM. He has some well-rounded knowledge of the game as opposed to Fisher who was on an NBA team just last year.

[joe2324Participant]

I really hope Fisher isn’t being judged too harshly here. Remember when Doc Rivers started with the Magic, he had a horrible start to his coaching career, but look where hes at now. I think Fisher has a good grasp of the game, hes just surrounded by garbage and being in the NYC market doesn’t help either

[joe2324Participant]

I really hope Fisher isn’t being judged too harshly here. Remember when Doc Rivers started with the Magic, he had a horrible start to his coaching career, but look where hes at now. I think Fisher has a good grasp of the game, hes just surrounded by garbage and being in the NYC market doesn’t help either

[ph90702]

It’s hard to get a good gauge of Derek Fisher’s ability when he coaches in a lousy organization.  You can put whoever you want in the coaches chair, but I have a hard time believing anything will change in New York as long as James Dolan is the owner.

[ph90702]

It’s hard to get a good gauge of Derek Fisher’s ability when he coaches in a lousy organization.  You can put whoever you want in the coaches chair, but I have a hard time believing anything will change in New York as long as James Dolan is the owner.

[BostonCs FanParticipant]

the problem is the personnel there working with. There’s no doubt that the triangle offense when implemented properly is affective. The players they got don’t fit the system. I’m not sure resigning Carmelo was the right thing to do either. The Knicks are stuck with a 30 year old shot jacker that cant do anything on the court but score for 5 years. Melo also got a little bit of kobe in him that being said, aside from the money the knicks can offer I don’t see why any ideal free agent will come to play in NY in the helms of melo

[BostonCs FanParticipant]

the problem is the personnel there working with. There’s no doubt that the triangle offense when implemented properly is affective. The players they got don’t fit the system. I’m not sure resigning Carmelo was the right thing to do either. The Knicks are stuck with a 30 year old shot jacker that cant do anything on the court but score for 5 years. Melo also got a little bit of kobe in him that being said, aside from the money the knicks can offer I don’t see why any ideal free agent will come to play in NY in the helms of melo

[DolanCareParticipant]

I agree that Fisher didn’t deserve a head coaching job without any experience. Like Kidd, he may prove to be a good coach but there needs to be some sort of transition period between ‘Player’ and ‘Coach’. 

That said, it’s unfair to judge Fisher when he’s forced to institute the triangle with this hapless team. The triangle is useless if you don’t have players who can create their own shot or create shots for others. The whole system revolves around taking on single coverage and finding cutters. When you have Cole Aldrich on the low block you have a problem, because there is no way he can take on Robert Sacre 1-on-1 let alone Serge Ibaka. 

Let’s wait to judge Fisher until he gets at least one other star to make the triangle at least plausible…. or maybe with another team all together. 

 

 

 

[DolanCareParticipant]

I agree that Fisher didn’t deserve a head coaching job without any experience. Like Kidd, he may prove to be a good coach but there needs to be some sort of transition period between ‘Player’ and ‘Coach’. 

That said, it’s unfair to judge Fisher when he’s forced to institute the triangle with this hapless team. The triangle is useless if you don’t have players who can create their own shot or create shots for others. The whole system revolves around taking on single coverage and finding cutters. When you have Cole Aldrich on the low block you have a problem, because there is no way he can take on Robert Sacre 1-on-1 let alone Serge Ibaka. 

Let’s wait to judge Fisher until he gets at least one other star to make the triangle at least plausible…. or maybe with another team all together. 

 

 

 

[Ghost01Participant]

 The personnel sucks, but so does the system. If Phil wasn’t his boss, I bet his job would be in jeopardy. But how can Phil fire him for running the triangle?

[Ghost01Participant]

 The personnel sucks, but so does the system. If Phil wasn’t his boss, I bet his job would be in jeopardy. But how can Phil fire him for running the triangle?

[rich.homie.mitchParticipant]

 I don’t think it’s the coaching personnel, Rambis, Cleamons and Keefe are a great staff to be around. Rambis a 17 year coach, served as an assistant under Phil so he knows the Triangle well. Cleamons 23 year coach in the league who has collected 9 rings as a coach. He was an assitant with the Bulls from 90-95 and assistant with the Lakers from 00-2011. He’s been with Phil and has learned the triangle really well too. I don’t think the coaching staff is the problem. If Phil wanted to do this right he should’ve taken over as coach for the Knicks and put Derek as an assistant for a year or two then give him reign of the team.

I think the whole problem comes with the personnel of the roster, and the umfamilitarity with the system. Their defense is also terrible, they ranked 28th in def. effiency. They have guys like calderon who is a terrible defender, hardaway, and melo who has improved but still a weak defender. 

 

 

 

 

[rich.homie.mitchParticipant]

 I don’t think it’s the coaching personnel, Rambis, Cleamons and Keefe are a great staff to be around. Rambis a 17 year coach, served as an assistant under Phil so he knows the Triangle well. Cleamons 23 year coach in the league who has collected 9 rings as a coach. He was an assitant with the Bulls from 90-95 and assistant with the Lakers from 00-2011. He’s been with Phil and has learned the triangle really well too. I don’t think the coaching staff is the problem. If Phil wanted to do this right he should’ve taken over as coach for the Knicks and put Derek as an assistant for a year or two then give him reign of the team.

I think the whole problem comes with the personnel of the roster, and the umfamilitarity with the system. Their defense is also terrible, they ranked 28th in def. effiency. They have guys like calderon who is a terrible defender, hardaway, and melo who has improved but still a weak defender. 

 

 

 

 

[Ny2daDeathOFmeParticipant]

 I Highly doubt he loses his job, this is phils guy but me personally i am not a fan of fisher as a coach for many reasons. This team is better than their record. His adjustments if any is horrible  .

[Ny2daDeathOFmeParticipant]

 I Highly doubt he loses his job, this is phils guy but me personally i am not a fan of fisher as a coach for many reasons. This team is better than their record. His adjustments if any is horrible  .

[JordoParticipant]

I may not like this trend of guys retiring and becoming coaches but let’s not act like the Knicks even have that many pieces for Fisher to work with. I mean they’ve had injuries at every position, even if they were healthy ,they have no one notable outside of Melo. I had the Knicks being medicre before the season, so few injuries and well you have this. Give Fisher a roster of quality guys, high IQ, HEALTHY, no non sense guys then we can put him on the hot seat. Im just not understanding how any coach could squeeze Wins outta this Knicks roster

[JordoParticipant]

I may not like this trend of guys retiring and becoming coaches but let’s not act like the Knicks even have that many pieces for Fisher to work with. I mean they’ve had injuries at every position, even if they were healthy ,they have no one notable outside of Melo. I had the Knicks being medicre before the season, so few injuries and well you have this. Give Fisher a roster of quality guys, high IQ, HEALTHY, no non sense guys then we can put him on the hot seat. Im just not understanding how any coach could squeeze Wins outta this Knicks roster

[TallmanNYCParticipant]

The triangle is something of a problem. First, it is just a problem because the players don’t know it. And these players have to go out and beat NBA teams who often aren’t dealing with a learning curve. Second, the triangle probably isn’t as good an offense as the D’Antonio derivatives based on the pick and role that most of the NBA runs. Yes, teams who have had the best player in the league (the Bulls and the Lakers) have won. But those teams were stacked. And the Lakers ran a lot of pick and roll besides just the Triangle. 

But the main problem is that the team doesn’t have enough good players. This wouldn’t be a 500 team running a standard NBA offense. Not without years of the players getting use to each other. But this team also shouldn’t be in competition for worst team in the league. Melo is good enough and streaky enough that he should be winning a game every week or two just by himself. So if one other guy can have a great game once a week, they should be a 25 to 30 win team. But right now they aren’t even close to that level. 

One more thing about the Triangle. NBA defenses have changed in the last ten years. The rules about impeding the progress of guards has changed. A set of strategies and princples that worked in one decade might not work against current defenses and under current rules. Or even just to keep up with current offenses. I don’t believe the Triangle set up a ton of threes during the Championship runs it had. Maybe the Knicks can’t keep up scoring against teams that set up more three point shots. Winters might be a genius at coaching and strategy, but he came up with the Triangle 30 years ago. It was a different game then. 

 

 

 

 

  

[TallmanNYCParticipant]

The triangle is something of a problem. First, it is just a problem because the players don’t know it. And these players have to go out and beat NBA teams who often aren’t dealing with a learning curve. Second, the triangle probably isn’t as good an offense as the D’Antonio derivatives based on the pick and role that most of the NBA runs. Yes, teams who have had the best player in the league (the Bulls and the Lakers) have won. But those teams were stacked. And the Lakers ran a lot of pick and roll besides just the Triangle. 

But the main problem is that the team doesn’t have enough good players. This wouldn’t be a 500 team running a standard NBA offense. Not without years of the players getting use to each other. But this team also shouldn’t be in competition for worst team in the league. Melo is good enough and streaky enough that he should be winning a game every week or two just by himself. So if one other guy can have a great game once a week, they should be a 25 to 30 win team. But right now they aren’t even close to that level. 

One more thing about the Triangle. NBA defenses have changed in the last ten years. The rules about impeding the progress of guards has changed. A set of strategies and princples that worked in one decade might not work against current defenses and under current rules. Or even just to keep up with current offenses. I don’t believe the Triangle set up a ton of threes during the Championship runs it had. Maybe the Knicks can’t keep up scoring against teams that set up more three point shots. Winters might be a genius at coaching and strategy, but he came up with the Triangle 30 years ago. It was a different game then. 

 

 

 

 

  

[HitsterParticipant]

Phil won titles with the Lakers using the triangle as recently as 2010 but as said above he had the players to do this. At the Bulls he had the best player in the NBA in MJ, Shaq was the dominant big in the NBA during Phil’s 3rd hat trick and had a younger Kobe as running mate, the final titles had a peak Kobe, supported by Pau Gasol and an able supporting cast.

The Knicks have Melo and not a lot else!

I don’t see Phil removing Fisher from the organisation as he appointed him, if Dolan tries to force Phil’s hand then I guess Phil walks and probably sues Dolan for breach of contract. I’d guess Phil has his contract terms fairly nailed down.

The big question could be does Phil become more hands on in the coaching, maybe attending drills even sitting on the bench to observe the coaching team. I don’t know what the rules are about a Team President sitting on the bench but Phil could easily make himself an "Assistant Coach" to get around it.

Or even does Phil take on the coaching role and give Fisher a top Front Office job maybe doing a lot of Phil’s desk duties.

 

[TallmanNYCParticipant]

Phil won’t coach again. Fisher is getting paid a lot and has a long term contract. But Phil is making more money, I think, and basically has a part time job. You can’t tell me that GM of an NBA team is a full time gig. What with one draft a year to work on, plus two or three trades, there is no way it takes 50 to 60 hours a week. And Phil has dispensation that says he can do most of the job from home and that he doesn’t even have to be in New York. Except for the public embarrassement of being part of this Knicks mess, it is a great job. 

So Phil isn’t going to switch to coaching which is a huge time commitment and travel commitment. Especially when he would be paid nothing more than what he is getting paid now. I’m sure he can attend any practice he wants and Fisher will adjust any of the drills to suit Phil if Phil asks. Which is no knock on Fisher, any coach would do that for the Zen Master, especially in regards to the triangle. 

The team is a mess mainly because of the players. Phils one move of getting Calderon was okay. He certainly hasn’t shook things up. I guess he let Chandler go which was a mistake. But Chandler wouldn’t have made these Knicks a playoff team. 

[TallmanNYCParticipant]

Phil won’t coach again. Fisher is getting paid a lot and has a long term contract. But Phil is making more money, I think, and basically has a part time job. You can’t tell me that GM of an NBA team is a full time gig. What with one draft a year to work on, plus two or three trades, there is no way it takes 50 to 60 hours a week. And Phil has dispensation that says he can do most of the job from home and that he doesn’t even have to be in New York. Except for the public embarrassement of being part of this Knicks mess, it is a great job. 

So Phil isn’t going to switch to coaching which is a huge time commitment and travel commitment. Especially when he would be paid nothing more than what he is getting paid now. I’m sure he can attend any practice he wants and Fisher will adjust any of the drills to suit Phil if Phil asks. Which is no knock on Fisher, any coach would do that for the Zen Master, especially in regards to the triangle. 

The team is a mess mainly because of the players. Phils one move of getting Calderon was okay. He certainly hasn’t shook things up. I guess he let Chandler go which was a mistake. But Chandler wouldn’t have made these Knicks a playoff team. 

[HitsterParticipant]

Phil won titles with the Lakers using the triangle as recently as 2010 but as said above he had the players to do this. At the Bulls he had the best player in the NBA in MJ, Shaq was the dominant big in the NBA during Phil’s 3rd hat trick and had a younger Kobe as running mate, the final titles had a peak Kobe, supported by Pau Gasol and an able supporting cast.

The Knicks have Melo and not a lot else!

I don’t see Phil removing Fisher from the organisation as he appointed him, if Dolan tries to force Phil’s hand then I guess Phil walks and probably sues Dolan for breach of contract. I’d guess Phil has his contract terms fairly nailed down.

The big question could be does Phil become more hands on in the coaching, maybe attending drills even sitting on the bench to observe the coaching team. I don’t know what the rules are about a Team President sitting on the bench but Phil could easily make himself an "Assistant Coach" to get around it.

Or even does Phil take on the coaching role and give Fisher a top Front Office job maybe doing a lot of Phil’s desk duties.

 

[HitsterParticipant]

The Knicks core won 54 games in 2013 but last season they did not click and yet again finished below .500.

I had forgotten that Phil had put his long term assistants in place to support Derek Fisher, so they should be the guys stepping up and really trying to drill the triangle into the players whilst Fisher looks at the bigger picture and calls the plays.

Phil let Tyson Chandler move on and got a decent package back, that signalled that the Knicks were going into total rebuild again. We had this in 2008 when they targetted the 2010 FA market and all those moves brought them was one Divisional title and one play off series win. Put that alongside what the 2010-14 Heat did or the Boston big 3 from 2007-2013!

James Dolan was obsessed with getting Melo and probably signed off his huge 5 year extension. The Knicks now have a star player who is 30 years old and who doesn’t suit or yet suit their new playing system. Melo had winning seadons in Denver so George Karl got good results from him, the Knicks need to unlock this somehow.

Also if they did rebuild via the draft then Melo would be past his peak when they are ready to contend.

The Knicks seem to have been in a mess virtually since the end of the Patrick Ewing era so probably need to stick to whatever Phil’s long term plan is. There are good FA’s this summer and they have cap space, are a huge franchise, have Phil doing the recruiting so they could add the right players.

I’d bet Phil will be thinking firstly can these players fit the triangle when he draws up his FA short list. The players on the list may not be the LeBron type superstars Dolan and the Garden fans want but they will hopefully be players who can buy into Phil’s manta and turn the Knicks around.

[HitsterParticipant]

The Knicks core won 54 games in 2013 but last season they did not click and yet again finished below .500.

I had forgotten that Phil had put his long term assistants in place to support Derek Fisher, so they should be the guys stepping up and really trying to drill the triangle into the players whilst Fisher looks at the bigger picture and calls the plays.

Phil let Tyson Chandler move on and got a decent package back, that signalled that the Knicks were going into total rebuild again. We had this in 2008 when they targetted the 2010 FA market and all those moves brought them was one Divisional title and one play off series win. Put that alongside what the 2010-14 Heat did or the Boston big 3 from 2007-2013!

James Dolan was obsessed with getting Melo and probably signed off his huge 5 year extension. The Knicks now have a star player who is 30 years old and who doesn’t suit or yet suit their new playing system. Melo had winning seadons in Denver so George Karl got good results from him, the Knicks need to unlock this somehow.

Also if they did rebuild via the draft then Melo would be past his peak when they are ready to contend.

The Knicks seem to have been in a mess virtually since the end of the Patrick Ewing era so probably need to stick to whatever Phil’s long term plan is. There are good FA’s this summer and they have cap space, are a huge franchise, have Phil doing the recruiting so they could add the right players.

I’d bet Phil will be thinking firstly can these players fit the triangle when he draws up his FA short list. The players on the list may not be the LeBron type superstars Dolan and the Garden fans want but they will hopefully be players who can buy into Phil’s manta and turn the Knicks around.

[Knicks 4 LIFEParticipant]

He is pretty safe for at least 2 years. Everyone knows this team is terrible so what happens this year will only help there future and help fishers ability to lead and learn to become a better XO’s type of coach. Scott Brooks was horrible in his first couple of years until the talent level got better so lets give him some time to develop a coaching style of his own. This year is only about changing the culture of the team strictly. If by year 3-4 things dont get better after acquiring at least a top 5 draft position this coming class, assuming some quality free agents are signed between this year and next year then they will have no excuse to be mediocre.

[Knicks 4 LIFEParticipant]

He is pretty safe for at least 2 years. Everyone knows this team is terrible so what happens this year will only help there future and help fishers ability to lead and learn to become a better XO’s type of coach. Scott Brooks was horrible in his first couple of years until the talent level got better so lets give him some time to develop a coaching style of his own. This year is only about changing the culture of the team strictly. If by year 3-4 things dont get better after acquiring at least a top 5 draft position this coming class, assuming some quality free agents are signed between this year and next year then they will have no excuse to be mediocre.

[Author]

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