[high floorParticipant]

Hi, I was wondering if any Indiana Pacer fans (or Frank Vogel fans in general) could provide some insight to his specific style of play on the offensive end? I know he doesn’t play with a ton of pace, and that he’s a more defensive minded HC…. but offensively speaking does he like a spread offense, pick n’ roll/pick n’ pop heavy, motion offense, high post, 1 in-4 out… etc?

The main reason for my inquiry revolves around his use of Elfrid Payton, as Orlando’s front office seems dead-set on giving PG Elfrid Payton minutes & the chance to succeed this season. Last year, Scott Skiles ran a motion offense that just did not mesh well at all with Payton’s style of play. Payton is not a shooter, and shooters succeed the most in an NBA motion style offensive system. Payton needs a high usage & numerous opportunities to get buckets close to the basket in order to score somewhat effectively. Elfrid Payton also needs to create in the pick n’ roll, and utilize his craftiness of getting into the paint & dish to cutters/open shooters when the shot isn’t there.

Anyone on here familiar with Vogel’s specific style of offense?

[GBeeParticipant]

 Wasn’t the Pacers’ offense, or lack of improvement offensively one of the main reasons why Vogel wasn’t brought back?  I remember seeing a stat that showed that the Pacers only finished top 20 in points possession once during his tenure, and that was during the lockout shortened season.

From what I’ve seen Vogel’s offense lacks structure.  He’s MUCH more of a defensive oriented guy who instills toughness, but his offense lacked structure.  There’s far more 1 on 1, iso and basic junk offense than a Skiles type offense, relying more on creating offense from defense than from straight up half court execution.  In a word I’d call his offense generic.  Maybe that’s more to Payton’s style but what angle are you asking this question from? Do you care  about what’s good for the Magic’s offense as a whole or do you just care about Payton’s numbers?  They are not one in the same.  Heck, maybe you’re just a fantasy owner who has Payton in a dynasty league.  

 In any case, unless he overhauls his offensive philosophy or has someone on his staff to serve as an OC, the Magic are going to have to rely on internal player improvement as opposed to offensive improvement via his system. Initial word coming from Vogel is that he’s an adapatable guy and will coach to his personnel as opposed to fitting them in a system, which sounds like typical new coach speak, but if thats the case, then we cant really look at how the Pacers were designed offensively.  There could be some philosophical changes, like looking to run more and playing more uptempo given the roster makeup, but I’m guessing in the halfcourt he’ll have the same tendencies (again, unless he hands OC duties to someone else).

 

[high floorParticipant]

I just want Orlando to succeed, and was interested in how Vogel’s offenses would tie into Payton’s game. 

It’s a point guard driven league, and even though I’m skeptical of Payton’s ability to lead an NBA offense I think Vogel needs to structure something to Elfrid’s strengths… especially since the Front Office really wants to justify giving up an additional 1st rounder for him via that 2014 draft deal for Dario Saric. Or just trade him.. of which I actually had a trade idea that I was thinking about starting another thread on involving Phoenix. But I’m not sure Orlando would do it since they seem prepared to sink or sail with Payton’s ship at all costs. 

[GBeeParticipant]

 There are a lot of good point guards in the league but I wouldn’t say it’s a PG driven league.  Just look at the best offense in the league.  Even if Steph Curry is the best player on the team, their offense is not PG driven.  They start their offense with multiple players, from different spots on the floor.  A lot of other teams are starting to do that as well.  It’s a less predictable approach and IMO allows offense to flow more freely.

I’m not even sure what Elfrid’s strengths in the half court are.  Until he improves as a shooter, opposing defenders can go under everything to the point of not even respecting his mid-range game which can make the 2 man game a waste of time. I just looked at Payton’s numbers last year as a PnR handler and they were pretty awful.  So how do they design an offense around that? Instead of catering to one player’s strengths (which PnR isn’t even a strength of EP’s), they should cater the offense around the team’s strengths which at this juncture would be Vucevic post ups, 2 man game…the latter I could see Fournier being more of a threat than Payton.  Ibaka’s presence should help Payton a bit with the added spacing, but I think flat 1-4’s or even 5 outs would benefit him more than PnR.

Bottom line for Payton is that he has to improve as a shooter, otherwise  there really is no such thing as catering to his strengths in the halfcourt.  Also, an organization structuring its offense around an offensively weak player in order to justify drafting him sounds like a recipe for failure. If that truly is their direction then they are incompetent.

 

 

[ChewyParticipant]

 was because Larry Bird has a philosophy that players turn deaf to coaches after 2-4 years. So he needs to change the coaches to keep the players responding.

I personally don’t agree with that, but he does, and The Legend calls the shots for the Pacers. 

Magic got a great coach due to this philosophy, but I don’t know specific details about his coaching style.

 

 

[GBeeParticipant]

 First result on a quick google search was the SI article of which this site won’t allow me to link, so I’ll just post a quote.

" Bird didn’t opt to move on from Vogel because of a lost playoff series or disappointing regular season. This was a choice made in service of offensive improvement—a stated goal that Bird has maintained in his regular evaluations of the team. "

  Bird wanted to see improvement offensively and it just didn’t happen under Vogel. They even tried to adapt, playing smaller, pushing the ball more. They experimented with George at the 4, they were slightly above average in terms of pace ( faster than they have played previously under Vogel), they were top 10 in transition possessions and points, yet their offense was still horrible (25th overall) because their halfcourt offense sucked.

 

 

[ChewyParticipant]

“This goes back a long time ago,” Bird said, reminding us that he knows what he knew. “I’ve seen it. And after a certain number of years, it’s time to make a move, and that’s how I feel.”

“Just the history. I’ve been around the history of the game for a lot of years. My experience has been, good coaches leave after three years. I played for Bill Fitch and I’ve seen it happen firsthand. I’ve talked to Red Auerbach on the subject a lot. We had K.C. Jones for five years. Nicest man I ever met. And they let him go. And we were having success.”

Bird believes in letting the coach go after 2-4 reguardless of the success (or lack of success) the team has. Quotes for an article in the Indystar.

 

 

[GBeeParticipant]

 If they showed any progress offensively I don’t think this would’ve been a narrative. It’s not like they kept the same group for the duration of his tenure.  There was a big roster overhaul from ’14 to ’15 so its not like its the same core group of players who were getting sick of hearing the same voice. There were 9 new players.  They tried to change their philsophy offensively playing a more "modernized" uptempo game, even some small ball and they were still terrible offensively. That had way more to do with it than the players suffering from coach fatigue.

[BennyLogParticipant]

 Im not too familiar with his style but going off what you said i think they would be best suited as a fast break style team scoring off of turnovers and iso with Vuc and fournier and pick and role with payton. They have the guys to run the floor especially gordon and hezonja and great passing with payton and hezonja. If they stop the break iso vuc in the post or pick and roll and hope payton devolops a respectable jumper

[high floorParticipant]

I agree. I think Orlando needs to play in transition quickly to best utilize Payton’s playmaking ability and athleticism. Fournier, Ibaka and Hezonja (who I think is going to get 25+ minutes this year) need to be on the floor alot with Payton so he can have competant shooters to kick the ball out to on the break. Aaron Gordon can throw down some oops from the wing when there’s an opening. 

As for the half-court, I would like to see a two man pick n’ roll/pick n’ pop game with Vucevic. But Payton needs to start connecting on 35% from three for when Vucevic has to throw it back out to him when facing a double team.  

If Biyombo & Ibaka are sharing the floor with Payton, I think Elfrid needs to apply intense pressure on the ball & play the passing lanes. He can afford to go for steals with those 2 shot blocking studs on the front-line. That’s how they’ll get into transition a lot within that lineup on the floor

[Anton123Participant]

 The current roster has plenty of shooting

PG Payton (Augustin)

SG Fournier (Watson)

SF Green/Gordon (Hezonja)

PF Ibaka (Gordon/Green)

C Vucevic (Biyombo)

This is no Miluakee with MCW, Orlando should be able to make up for Payton’s lack of shooting ability and he should have a better season. Also Fournier, Hezonja, Gordon, Ibaka – are all players who are better when the offence is created for them, so there sure is a role for Payton.

Vogel had George Hill who isn’t much of a PG, so it’s hard to say what he’ll do with a true PG like Payton, but the pieces are there for Elfrid to succeed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

To be honest, Vogel’s offense sucks. It wasn’t until last season that the Pacers made any kind of offensive improvement when it came to spacing, ball movement, shooting, getting out in transition, etc. *To be fair*, just like Vogel would say… It depends on the personnel he has on the roster. However, I just feel like his teams weren’t coached well offensively. Poor screening, guys getting in the way of each other at times… 

The Pacers were a team that won due to rebounding, defense and just making it an ugly grind game. Offensively, it was dumping the ball into West or letting PG do his thing majority of the time. Last season was the first season the Pacers looked decent moving the ball side to side. He tried to tinker with going small putting Miles at the 4, but eventually went back to a big lineup putting Turner at the 4.

During his introduction conference with the Magic he talked about expanding on the improvements he made the last season with the Pacers offensively. I’m interested to see what he does. 

 

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