[European BallerParticipant]

Evangelos Mantzaris is the starting point guard of Olympiacos, one of the biggest clubs in the Euroleague. A club that currently has the 7th biggest budget in Europe and is on its way to making the last 8 of the competition.

Playing behind Mantzaris, is Acie Law, a 4 year NBA rotation player, and former FIRST round NBA draft pick.

Mantzaris is a 6-5 point guard.

He is athletic and he is a lockdown defender. He is actually in all honesty a much better defender than Rubio is, and Rubio is being endlessly praised for being one of the best defending point guards in the NBA. Well, Mantzaris is actually a much better defender at the one than Rubio is.

Mantzaris has won everything to win in Europe at the junior national team levels. He also won a youth club championship in Greece, being named the MVP.

At the age of a college junior, he was the best player on Peristeri, a club in the Greek League, which is one of the best leagues in Europe.

Recently, Mantzaris played head to head against Panathinaikos point guard Dimitris Diamantidis. Diamantidis was last year, Euroleague DPOY, All-Euroleague First Team, Euroleague MVP, Euroleague Final Four MVP, Euroleague champion, Greek DPOY, All-Greek League, Greek League MVP, and Greek champion. He won ALL those awards last season.

So, playing against a guy that is considered universally as one of the best players in Euroleague history (Diamantidis) was Mantzaris just this last week.

 

All Mantzaris did was totally outplay Diamantidis. TOTALLY outplay him and lead Olympiacos to the win over Panathinaikos. Mantzaris completely outplayed Diamantidis head to head throughout the entire game. For comparison sake, last year in the Euroleague playoffs, Diamantidis abused and dominated Rubio so bad that it was painful to watch.

Earlier in the year, Mantzaris played against Deron Williams in a tournament and held him to 2 points in the 20 minutes that he defended him.

All of this, and yet, Evangelos Mantzaris is not on the 2012 mock draft list.

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

"Rubio is being endlessly praised for being one of the best defending point guards in the NBA."

When was this?

[European BallerParticipant]

Every single time you watch Timberwolves game. Every single time you go to a Rubio thread at realgm.com Every time ESPN talks about him.

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

Perhaps you should stay on realgm.

[aamir543Participant]

Rubio is being hyped a lot, but no one praises his defensive ability.

And Euro Baller, Evan might be one hell of a defender, but does he have the overall game and potential that teams are looking for? I think he might be in this sites Inernational rankings, but the competition is so tough already, I mean holding Deron Williams to 2 points is a great feat in itself, however I trust talent evaluatiors enough that they get the best talent, but if he really is a great defender, than he’ll find his way into the league one way or another.

And remember, it’s hard to have so many Euro guys in the mock, so just look at the international rankings for you’re references.

[European BallerParticipant]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5qnbi_tCEU

Mantzaris is #17 in red. Notice the defense he plays on one of the greatest European players to ever live, Diamantidis (#13 in green).

[SwatLakeCityParticipant]

Give it up European Baller. This is getting ridiculous. Honestly, did you join this site only to promote international players and get them into the NBA? If so, your cause and determination is admirable but maybe there’s a reason why these international "stars" are not included in the NBA draft. If you look at past drafts, there have been a ton of international players who were drafted but turned out to be nothing. It turns out that there skills were better suited for the international game. That may seem hard for you to believe, but here is a fact the NBA is different than International ball. The NBA plays a different brand of basketball than International leagues do. So different that stars on International leagues can’t make it in the NBA and would be better off if they stayed in the international league that they came from.

I give this site tremendous praise for finding which international players can make it in the NBA, and which cannot. Maybe you should start looking into reasons (on your own, not by asking us so "experts") why they aren’t in any mock drafts before you go endorsing them as potential draft snubs. Be humble about it, realize that you are not an NBA scout, realize that this site may very well be smarter than you are as to which international stars can make it in the NBA.

[European BallerParticipant]

Every single time I watch a Wolves game, they are praising Rubio’s defense.

You are wrong about these NBA "talent evaluators".

Look at these European players:

Theo Papaloukas

Dimitris Diamantidis

Ioannis Bourousis

Ramunas Siskausas

These players could have all been big stars in the NBA. Not a single one of them was even drafted. And there are many such more examples like this. I am just listing the ones from the last recent times.

These "talent evaluators" don’t know anything about European players at all. Absolutely nothing.

How can all the Greek players like Jankovic, Mantzaris, Sloukas, Pappas, Papanikoloau not be in any mock drafts, when they are key rotation players in one of the best leagues in Europe? A level much higher than the NCAA.

 

Do you realize that there have been several NCAA players that went in the draft that were cut from the Greek league just in recent years? Look at the team Jankovic plays on. He is a year younger than Diebler, and just as important, if not more so to the team. So how come Diebler is good enough to be drafted and not Jankovic?

Sloukas and Mantzaris play ahead of an NBA PG on their team and are not good enough to be drafted?

Papanikolaou when he was 19 years old, Danny Ferry and Daryl Morey saw him play and both said at age 19 he would be a starting small forward in the NBA then. At age 21 he is not in a mock draft?

Pappas is the most ridiculous one of all. He was hands down the best player in Europe at the under-20 championship and I know for a fact that many scouts in Spain for the ACB league were saying he was one of the biggest talents they had seen in the last 25 years in Europe. He’s not even on the mock drafts.

There is no way in hell that this can happen if this is simply based on how good the players are and whether or not "they can play in the NBA". All of them would be big stars in the NCAA.

You don’t believe me. Explain it please. Kalin Lucas and Matt Howard were both cut from Olympiacos this year because they were not good enough to stay on the team. Lucas and Howard, among the best players in the NCAA just last year…………were cut from Olympiacos because they could not meet the basic standards of the team.

Sloukas, Mantzaris, Papanikolaou are all key rotation players on Olympiacos, and would be college seniors now, yet none of them can be on a mock draft? There is an obvious agenda here on the part of these draft sites and the NBA.

[Future_Scout]

 not to praise rubio on D, but he does lead the league in steals, which is no easy task

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

Future_Scout

Steals and blocks don’t necessarily mean someone is a good defender.

Mike Conley is a very close second, only .04 away, and nobody says Conley is a good defender.  Not saying you said Rubio is a good defender but I’m simply saying those stats are extremely misleading. 

[European BallerParticipant]

You see. You guys act like you know so much about the NBA and I know nothing about it. But, you don’t even seem to know that they are constantly saying Rubio is a great defender during the games he is playing in. Which means i am actually watching more NBA than you are.

 

 

[aamir543Participant]

^By "they" are you reffering to the guys on the T-Wolves local brodcast that say anything and everything?

As a fan of the Warriors, the guys that call the game just praise Curry and Ellis the whole time. Those homers will say anything.

[scbe2223Participant]

 Has anybody ever reached -1000 points?

[European BallerParticipant]

Yes. They also have said things like "Rubio was 3 time Euroleague champion" which is a lie, and "Rubio was 3 time Euroleague MVP", which is also a lie, in many of the games.

Even though none of this is true, they keep saying it over and over, and even they put up graphics to this. They actualy will show these graphics listing his "resume" or "accomplishments" and they will show on the screen things like "3 time Euroleague champion" and "3 time Euroleague MVP", both of which are totally false and untrue.

But for sure most Americans watching the games are believing it is true.

[Future_Scout]

TOL 23… i know they stls don’t exactly translate to good defense that’s why i said, "not to praise rubio on D but…".

when you take a look the top steal leaders, you got top defensive guys. it is no easy task!

[aamir543Participant]

^The record is-24,000 by as a matter of fact.

Well, the truth is that Rubio is a below average defender for now, and most articles and segments I’ve seen on ESPN and TNT praise his offensive game, but acknowlegde that he is a terrible defender.

And Olympicos is a highly regarded team in Europe, and I’m sure scouts are there watching games.

If Daryl Morey siad that Papanikoaou would become a starter in the league, than he must be a talented fellow, but from the couple minutes of video I’ve seen, he seems like primarily a spot up shooter, and he is on the international prospects list, he is infact 7th on the 1990 list on this site, and I’m sure there is a logical reason for which he is not in the mock, and remember, it is very hard to project international players in mocks. But there is a very good chance that by June Papanikoaou will indeed by in the mock, and as we witnessed this past draft, teams are more content drafting relatively unknown international prospects, as evidence by David Kahn picking Tanguy Ngombo.

[Mr. 19134Participant]

Well that was interesting a highlight video on a European player showing nothing but man to man defense.

And for the record Rubio is considered by ESPN the best defending rookie PG since Jrue Holiday.

And EuroBaller if these guys would be good in the NBA trust that GM’s want them on their team but it’s so hard to tell whose game will translate sometimes.  Not only that you have the contract situations which is the biggest problems.  Some of these guys are owned by their European cluns with no opt out clause.  And now thanks for Fran Vasquez you have teams afraid they’re gonna draft a player and him not ever come over.  Like really what is up with Vasquez that was a dirtbag move he owes the Magic atleast one damm year.

And finally their are only 60 picks in the NBA Draft.  I’d be interesting to see you make a mock tho of European players only and then we could see how that translates to the actual mock.  And every year there are picks in the 2nd round of the draft that nobodie’s heard of so sometimes you can throw rankings out the window.  Like who was that guy the Lakers drafted last year?  He’ll probably never play in the league.  And I still can’t figure out how Pape Sy got drafted.  

Also if a player if playing on a Greek team he is obviously not an NBA player.

[Future_Scout]

 well im guessing your not counting shumpert as a pg then

[Mr. 19134Participant]

If that dude can hit 3’s and defend as well as you say the Spurs will draft him no worries.

And he’s right that Rubio is getting praised for his defense and he should he’s been really good defensively.  Heres an article about how Rubio shut down Jeremy Lin and his PNR offense with stats to proove it as Lin was shut down by Rubio the entire game and shot like 3-12 when being defended by Ricky.  http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/36780/rubio-contains-lin-in-pick-and-roll-offense

David Thorpe had this to say about Rubio in his rookie watch:http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/RookieWatch-120126/nba-biggest-rookie-surprises

"Rubio’s shooting woes are evident, and he’s so focused on making the great pass that he tends to miss easier plays and thus risks unnecessary turnovers, but there’s no denying his impact on both sides of the ball.

Consider this: Rubio is already a better defender than Russell Westbrook, Rose, Evans and Wall were when they were rookies — by a mile. He might even be better on defense than they are now (more data will give us that answer). He’s someone offenses have to account for when handling the ball against the Wolves. That alone is shocking to those who think power and speed are defensive requirements in the NBA. Rubio’s length, feel and willingness to "muck things up" go a long way on defense."

 

[European BallerParticipant]

My point is, why do they simply not draft the best players that are available when it comes to the European players? It simply makes no sense. They draft about 90% of the best NCAA players available, there are always guys that slip through.

But with the European players they draft maybe 10% of the best ones…….and it’s not an issue of only 60 picks. I am saying they will draft European players that might not even be in the top 500 best players in Europe and I am NOT exagerrating. This happens every year it seems.

This is just very strange and bizarre.

And how they can often take a European player in the draft is not even in a first club, but in a youth squad. Playing something like high school basketball, while a guy that is playing minutes in the Euroleague (like NBA for Europe) is not even drafted.

It’s very strange. And if you look 5 years down the road, the player they drafted is a total nothing. Even they will draft a player in the first round or even lotto sometimes that was never even considered a good player in Europe at any level. Guys that maybe one day 10 years later MIGHT be in a mid sized Euroepan club, going with high NBA draft picks.

On the other hand, some guys that were top players in youth ages in Europe did not get drafted, and 10 years later were stars in Euroleague and with their national teams.

Combine this with the fact that the NBA teams have all this info and know fully well that these picks they are making are NOT ever panning out and that the guys they are passing on are often becoming very good players – it really is odd. It is like they are absolutely ON PURPOSE choosing to not draft most of the best European players.

Then on top of this they turn around and MAKE UP LIES, outright LIES, that I see repeated in this forum over and over, about how "all the best European players get drafted" and "all European players that can play in the NBA get drafted". This is absolutely crazy talk. I would say 1 out of 50 European players that can play in the NBA get drafted, and maybe even less.

But the whole NBA fan abse will swear to the absolute utmost that any player in Europe that could play in the NBA was drafted and that any player in Europe that was not drafted "isn’t good enough to play in the NBA".

Then to simply deny this with claims that are totally untrue, like, "Europeans just don’t know whose game will translate" and all this other complete BS really is extremely fishy.

To anyone that knows basketball, understands basketball, and closely follows European basketball and the NBA, and NCAA, the way the NBA chooses not to draft so many god European players is extremely strange and fishy.

And believe me, I have just about 6 months ago taked to an NBA scout in Europe that played in NCAA, worked for an NBA team in the office, and now works as a scout in Europe. He told me the same thing. He said there are so many guys right now in Europe can start in the NBA and the NBA teams all know it and would absolutely refuse to even ever consider offering them a contract and/or drafting them because that is all part of NBA marketing and procedure.

They only want to make the game in Europe appear in a way that suits their marketing antics. So I am not the only one just imagining this. This came straight from an NBA scout’s own mouth.

[NbanflguyParticipant]

European Baller, go away!

By the way, Rubio has been a pleasant surprise on defense this year. He actually is a very solid defender and will only get better.

[HaleParticipant]

 I’ve seen Rubio praised for his D quite a few times. It was definitely exaggerated at times (said he was locking up D-Rose) but he is still a good defender. His anticipation is incredible, he moves his feet well and he has good length. If an average defender in the NBA is a 7, Rubio is probably an 8-8.5.

[GronounoursParticipant]

 You’re not always wrong, but basically I’d say you suffer from a very common disease : confirmation bias.

When you notice a good European player, you start looking for positive data and comments and you build a case not as a scout, but as a lawyer. 

I didn’t want to spend too much time on a BB question (there are more intersting topics in life), so I just picked Pappas. I see on DraftExpress that "Certainly not an NBA prospect due to his physical limitations, Pappas can surely forge himself a fine career in Europe, despite being an early bloomer" (Sept. 2009). Hardly a top-tier NBA prospect it seems.

If a player is really good (really), has a NBA-friendly game and wants to play in the NBA, don’t worry, he’ll end up in the NBA.

[andyV17Participant]

Euro Baller  just shut the fuck up

[Mr. 19134Participant]

 He does make a great point that the NBA will draft players sometimes that have neither no business being drafted, will never make it to the NBA, and suck in Europe.  I don’t get that either.  But I think a lot of that has to do with contracts and situations.  Sometimes these GM’s reach and try to get a diamond in the rough who can help the team immediatly because he has an opt out clause and take him.  A lot of the better players in Europe aren’t drafted simply because they have no opt out clause or if they do it’s like 5 years away.  Remenber it took Splitter like 4 years to finally be drafted and even after he was it took another 2 or 3 years before he was allowed to even play.

Then you got the shady politics of that Tanguy Ngombo incident.  Does anybody know this story?  The Wolves took who they thought was a hidden 21 year old forward playing in Qatar who did look like he gonna be really good in the NBA with some potential only to find out the next day he’s really 27 and wasn’t even eligible to be drafted and has no potential.

[JunkYardDogParticipant]

 european game and nba game are not the same. They don’t need players with the same strengths and weeknesses. You can be successfull in EL and underperform in NBA, you can be great in NBA and awfull in EL. Physical attributes, athletic abilities needed to play are very different from a league to another. Even if the gap is being less and less visible.  

europeanballer say papaloukas, diamantidis, bourousis, siskausas would have been "nba big stars". Are you a medium who can see life in other dimensions ?….

I have been a long fan of bourousis telling several times in this forum during the last 2 years, some nba teams should look at him. But you can’t tell you’re sure that those guys would have been successfull if…. I doubt papaloukas could have been a major key on an nba success.

[So raspyParticipant]

ask NBA scouts, they’re mostly the ones these analysts get their info from. I’m sure they have some reason for you, I doubt they just haven’t heard of these guys or hate euro players

[JoeWolf1]

 Being better than Acie Law only means that he’s better than a guy who is considered a bust in the NBA and a career 3rd point guard.  You capitalized FIRST round pick, but if you’re using Acie Law as your measuring stick of 1st round talent, then sir, you have a flawed system.

If an NBA 1st rounder is playing in Europe after a 3 or 4 year NBA career, they usually couldn’t hack it.

[GrandmamaParticipant]

Quit feeding the Euro Troll!!!

[FastAndFuriousParticipant]

Again?

Man you posting about all these foreingers on a random basketball message board is not going to get them anymore exposure lol

[aamir543Participant]

I just watched the video he posted, and although Mantzaris is a good defender, and has great on-ball pressure, but the reason he is able to do that is because he has great help defense, and let me tell you, the scheme that the red team had was great. Mantzaris didn’t need to stay with or in front of #13, he just had to close off his left, and the pressure would come imeadiatly everytime a shot went up. To me, his D had more to do with effort than skill, which is still great, but it doesn’t tell me that he can come to the NBA and lock down Rose or Paul. Everyone kept praising Lebron for defending DRose in the Playoffs, and although I do agree that Lebron is one of the top 5 perimeter defenders in the league, part of the scheme was to put a ton of on ball pressure, and force him to go down the middle where Joel Anthony, Haslem/Bosh, and DWade were all waiting for him. Not that Lebron didn’t or couldn’t do a great job, but in these certain situations it’s all about the help D being there, and when the help is there, it makes it alot easier for the defender to put pressure on the ball handler.

[European BallerParticipant]

Gronounours:

You’re not always wrong, but basically I’d say you suffer from a very common disease : confirmation bias. When you notice a good European player, you start looking for positive data and comments and you build a case not as a scout, but as a lawyer. I didn’t want to spend too much time on a BB question (there are more intersting topics in life), so I just picked Pappas. I see on DraftExpress that "Certainly not an NBA prospect due to his physical limitations, Pappas can surely forge himself a fine career in Europe, despite being an early bloomer" (Sept. 2009). Hardly a top-tier NBA prospect it seems. If a player is really good (really), has a NBA-friendly game and wants to play in the NBA, don’t worry, he’ll end up in the NBA.

 

What "physical limitations"? Explain it please. or do you just take what some moron wrote at draftexpress.com to be true gospel without you actually knowing if it really is true?

A 6-5 212 point guard, with a 6-8 wingspan, as he was measured at the last draft camp, that often dunks the basketball in games……….in a a highly physical pro league, where defense is the most emphasized part of the game. Where there is hand checking allowed, where there is no such thing as a no defensive 3 seconds rule…….., where two 6-10 and up guys are usually packing the paint area on defense all game long,

In other words, where it is MUCH HARDER to score in the paint, and get to the rim and get into the lane than it is in the NBA………

Please kindly, explain to me just exactly what these "physical limitations" are. Go ahead and frame your "argument" in your best "lawyer" spin.

[aamir543Participant]

^To be a successful point guard in the NBA, you either need to have "The Eye", meaning great court vision(See: Nash, Lin, and Rubio), or you need to have elite athleticism and speed which allows you to get to the basket virtually at will(See: Rose, Westbrook, Wall) Or you need to have a deadly jumpshot which you can pop from almost anywhere at any given time, but that alone isn’t enough(See: Curry, Augustine, Fredette).

From the videos you have posted, The guys seem to have a great jumpshot, but they don’t seem to have any one on one abilities at all, and al though they can get into the paint, they have average athleticism. There are only a few excpetions as to guys with below average athleticism but can still finish at the bucket, such as Nash and Lin, but both play in an offense which give them a lot of freedom and are great coming off the high pick and roll. Not many guys are as smart as Lin and Nash are.

All in all, it is very difficult to be a solid point guard in the league, and there are many things you have to be able to do to have your game translate to the NBA.

[European BallerParticipant]

Pappas has all kinds of one to one moves. He’s a pure scorer.

Explain to me then if what you say is true, how come Spanoulis was benched in the NBA?

 

Extremely fast, very athletic, unreal first step, off the charts one to one game, back then with hops (38 inch vertical then), unlimited shooting range, great shooter from mid range, long range, off the dribble, off the pull up, in transition, on the catch and  shoot, very quck, could get into the lane at will, one of the best finishers of any guard in the world, ecellent court vision, can run the pick and roll to perfection…………

If you had to compare him to an NBA player, he is like a rich man’s Jeremy Lin, or at the very least a prime version of Sarunas Marciuolionis. Every single attribute you describe, all 3 categories, in spades.

Yet, sat on the bench all year in Houston.

Sorry, but none of these explanations add up. Because they all fail to be a proper explanation, the instant they are put under any sort of examination whatsoever.

If these things are true, Spanoulis should have been an all star every year in the NBA. Instead he never got off the bench with the Rockets. So evidently, there was some other reason why his coach chose not to play him. The excuses that the NBA uses just do not add up.

With Pappas, I cannot imagine any scenario whatsoever where he would not be drafted if he was American.

And while you mention what point guards must have to be drafted, then why would Sloukas not be drafted? Sloukas is what you call a lights out shooter. So he should fall under your Curry and Jimmer category. Being a lights out shooter, 6-3, at the point guard position. But he’s never to be seen on these mocks anywhere.

I think players like Mantzaris, Papanikoloau, and Jankovic would definitely be drafted if they were American. So there is a clear bias. I’m just talking about Greek players, never mind all other such caes of European players from other countries. But, all these excuses that come from the NBA side can be applied to them (even though if they were Americans people would be praising them right now).

But, it makes ZERO sense for Pappas and Spanoulis. Pappas’ game is more suited to NBA by far, and Spanoulis’ game is 100% tailor made pure NBA all the way. He is almost like a fish out of water in the Euroleague. Every single things about his game is purely suited to the NBA style. He went there and sat on a bench all year. I am sorry, but the reasons (excuses) given do not add up.

Just like it never has made any sense at all as to why Navarro was not used properly in the NBA. It’s like insane. The guy that is 2nd best Spanish player ever – miles better than guys like Rubio and Fernandez, amd Marc and then could ever hope to be, and was not even thought of as anything by Memphis. Wellt he excuse of not being able to shoot cannot add up.

[HaleParticipant]

"Extremely fast, very athletic, unreal first step, off the charts one to one game, back then with hops (38 inch vertical then), unlimited shooting range, great shooter from mid range, long range, off the dribble, off the pull up, in transition, on the catch and shoot, very quck, could get into the lane at will, one of the best finishers of any guard in the world, ecellent court vision, can run the pick and roll to perfection"

Just going off of this, you’d think he was prime Kobe.

[European BallerParticipant]

D’Antoni, McMillian, Coach K – all of them said that Spanoulis was in the top 5 best players in the world.

 

He is not Kobe, but he is not far from that level either.

[JunkYardDogParticipant]

 "Extremely fast, very athletic, unreal first step"

just that…. spanoulis is not that. He’s a great player but he’s not that.

what would be the point for the nba to avoid a greek player to play and perform ? there is a strong greek community in the usa…. so an audience… so an economic potential. Why the hell the nba won’t use that like they did for other players (ming, lin, even gasol, parker) ?

some players are better suited to the nba than others… and some players are better used by coaches who know their job. that’s all…

[European BallerParticipant]

Just that..it’s not true. You mention Parker. Did you know that Tonry Parker said to Greg Popovich that they really needed to keep Spanoulis? Did you know that? Parker has been playing against him since they were 18 years old in national team tournaments.

From Tony Parker’s own advice to Popovich was that Spanoulis is the best point guard he has ever played against. Spanoulis can beat Team USA basically all by himself………But, we are to believe that he is not good enough to play in the NBA……….

Sorry, it does not add up.

Navarro can average 35 points a game against the Lakers, yet "cannot play in the NBA". Rudy Fernandez is about 1/10 as good of a player as Navarro is, and has been a 6th man on NBA playoff teams.

"the game is different", "some player’s games don’t translate", blah blah blah

It’s total bull shit. I saw Kobe in Greece telling all the people at the park that Spanoulis was a great player by NBA standards. One guy told him Spanoulis isn’t good enough for the NBA and Kobe was like "man, Spanoulis is a great player, he’s a GREAT player." He should know because he played against him in the Olympics.

But he’s "not good enough to play in the NBA".

Sorry, but there is definitely something that the NBA has against certain European players. That’s it.

[JunkYardDogParticipant]

why spanoulis didn’t play ? THINK OF THAT…..

spanoulis is not a pg at all and is 6"4…. that brings you matchup problems in D.

Especially when the pg that year was rafer alston (6"2) and they already played with luther head (6"3) for 2 years and tried to develop him as a starter. 

The team was winning 52 / 30 and the coach was van gundy (the real one not mario bros).

[European BallerParticipant]

I think Spanoulis is no way in hell 6-4. He is 6-2 to 6-3 in shoes at most.

Spanoulis is a true combo guard. He is what the old European coaches call "universal player". This means a guard that can play 100% as a point guard or shooting guard on offense or defense, in any team, in any system.

It means a purely interchangeble guard.

 

In NBA it means, too stupid or lacking in skills to play point guard, and too small to play shooting guard.

In the case of Spanoulis, it means he is a universal guard. He is able to play 1 or 2 interchangeably on both sides of the court.

Why do you think he is always signed to teams that use a 3 guard rotation, or that if they didn’t, his coach starts using it? Maroussi, Panathinaikos, Olympiacos, Greek antional team – all could use the Yugoslav 3 guard system because Spanoulis is a European style universal combo guard.

So again, that reason makes no sense. Spanoulis is 100% point guard/100% shooting guard both offense and defense. It’s a universal skill set both ways.

He’s not an NBA style combo guard. Two entirely different things. have you seen an Olympiacos game recently? Spanoulis starts, or comes off the bench, he runs the offense, he runs pick and roll, he moves off the ball and plays as a two, he sets the offense from the top of the key, he runs off screens and picks, he is used as a primary ball handler, he guards the point, he guards the two, he guards the 3 even, sometimes he even guards in the low post against 4s…………

He is a universal European (Yugoslav) style combo guard. If you can remember players in the past, like Giannakis or Marciulionis, or from American perspective, Jerry West. That kind of combo guard. Not NBA kind of combo guard.

[JunkYardDogParticipant]

if something is biased here this is your opinion on greek prospects…

and you find wrong answers (racism or some BS like that) to a good question : why some great european players don’t succeed in the nba ?

and I repeat what would be the point for the nba to avoid a greek player to play and perform ? there is a strong greek community in the usa…. so an audience… so an economic potential. Why the hell the nba won’t use that like they did for other players (ming, lin, even europeans gasol, parker, kirilenko) ?

[European BallerParticipant]

So, you have no argument. You cannot counter anything I say. All you do is make up some nonsense excuses, and then some more.

Why would the NBA? ???

Why did Yao Ming tell Chinese media that the NBA was purposely reffing him differently to make sure he could not succeed and become the best player in the NBA? He said that it was because they did not want a Chinese player to take the marquee of the NBA.

 

His own words. From the biggest cash cow in NBA history (even made more money for NBA than Jordan did).

I don’t know………why indeed?

You call wondering aboutt hings that make no sense and do not add up as "bias". When what you are doing is making up excuses that do not add up and never once answer any of the inconsistincies.

Players can shine against Team USA (Spanoulis/Navarro) a team of 12 NBA all stars, yet "cannot play in the NBA".

The Heat have 3 players than can be on Team USA and are expected to win a title. They could not stay within 50 points of Team USA. But then, if a player from Spain or Greece has a great game or games against the actual Team USA, the one that would annilhaite the Heat, even leads his team to beat them…….."not good enough to play in the NBA".

Right, makes a lot of sense.

[aamir543Participant]

Look, if Spanoulis was really one of the 5 best players in the world, than he would have gotten PT with the Rockets, plain and simple, if a guy is really that good, than no coach would bury him on the bench(except maybe Don Nelson if you get on his bad side).

I will agree with you about Juan Carlos Navaro. That guy could flat out ball. I remember him in Memphis thinking that he should start over Conley, have no clue what happened to him, but remember with some foreign guys, they’d rather be stars back home than be role players here, but Navaro was the real deal, he could absolutely stroke it from downtown.

I feel that if Navaro had come over earlier, when he was 22, it would have done wonders as far as his development, and I have no doubt he would have become a Ginobili type player.

 

[JunkYardDogParticipant]

 as you said about spanoulis "He’s not an NBA style combo guard."… that’s why I told he’s a great player not an great nba player.

"he guards the two, he guards the 3 even, sometimes he even guards in the low post against 4s"…. yes in europe NOT in the nba where he could hardly guard a 2 and where it brings more matchup problems (less zone D, more iso on O). Spanoulis couldn’t play 100% at 2 (especially in D).

Spanoulis is effective in a greek team where he is one of the 2 best option…. OK…. in houston he was playing alongside YAO MING and TRACY MCGRADY….. do you think they needed a scoring combo guard ?…. 

 

[European BallerParticipant]

Doug Collins was being asked on his thoughts about Spanoulis. I heard his comment clear as day from how he answered it.

Someone aksed him something like, "why do you think Spanoulis was not good enough to play in the NBA".

Doug Collins said something like:

"I don’t know what Jeff ‘s [Van Gundy] problems were with Spanoulis in Houston. But I can just tell you that Spanoulis is one hell of a player and he is as tough and competitive a player as I have ever seen, and I really like his game. I was talking to Team USA’s coaches, Mike [D’antoni], Coack K, and Nate MicMillan, and they all said that after doing the scouting on Greece, that they were really impressed with Spanoulis.

I don’t know what Jeff really thinks of him, I would have to talk to Jeff about it. But I can tell you this, those Team USA coaches have an immense amount of respect for his game and what he can do and pretty much the entire US game plan is based on how can they stop Spanoulis, because if they just let him play his game, he might beat them."

I am paraphrasing from memory, but this is basically what was said. Personally, I trust the word of Doug Collins more than fans on a basketball forum, when it comes to whether or not Spanoulis can play in the NBA.

[aamir543Participant]

Ok, sure Spanoulis can play in the NBA, let’s say Van Gundy made a big mistake, but why didn’t he latch onto a team afterwards and dominate then? I believe all of these people that you’re quoting, howeverif there was so much love for him, why didn’t teams chase him after he left the Rockets, or try to trade Spanoulis for some spare change? I’m assuming that he didn’t give teams a chance to do so, and prefered to go back home, and can you please tell me whether Navaro is out of the league because he wanted to go back to Spain, or because no one wanted him?

[JunkYardDogParticipant]

…so stop posting hear….?

if you dislike so much nba game and nba coaches who don’t let greek players dominate the game cause they are racist…. why do you want nba teams to draft every f*cking greek player ????

you should hope them to stay in greece and help pana or olymp’ to win EL…. no ?

[aamir543Participant]

Ok, but my question is that after his stint in Houston, why didn’t teams come tearing down to his house if he was so good? If he was really regarded so highly by D’Antoni, why didn’t he try to get him in Phoniex to back up Nash, or be his successor the way Dragic was suspposed to be.

[European BallerParticipant]

 JunkYardDog:

as you said about spanoulis "He’s not an NBA style combo guard."… that’s why I told he’s a great player not an great nba player.

"he guards the two, he guards the 3 even, sometimes he even guards in the low post against 4s"…. yes in europe NOT in the nba where he could hardly guard a 2 and where it brings more matchup problems (less zone D, more iso on O). Spanoulis couldn’t play 100% at 2 (especially in D).

Spanoulis is effective in a greek team where he is one of the 2 best option…. OK…. in houston he was playing alongside YAO MING and TRACY MCGRADY….. do you think they needed a scoring combo guard ?….

 

 

Spanoulis is great at defending 2’s and 3’s in Euroleague. He’s great at defending 2’s and 3’s in all the FIBA competitions. From all the games I saw in NBA, he was LOCKDOWN defense against NBA 2’s.

So what about Yao and T-mac? It’s 2 players. You are telling me with Rafer, Head, Lucas III Spanoulis deserved no playing time? Rafer Alston was a very nice player, underrated big time. He was helping the Magic to an NBA title, until his dumb coach (another Van Gundy) benched him in the finals.

But, even though he was a very nice player, he is no way in the level of Spanoulis. Spanoulis just flat out a better player. Lucas III and Head? Is it a sick joke? is this the same Lucas that was cut from several teams in Europe, that could not even make in small sized Italian clubs?

is the same Head that is a 6-3 guard that cannot dribble and cannot pass, and can only shoot wide open jumpers? The same Head that tried out for some Spanish clubs and did not even pass the tryout?

Yes, it makes perfect sense, why one of the best European guards of all time, was benched in place of guys that are Eurocup level players. Playing players like Head and Lucas over Spanoulis – Van Gundy must be insane, or he was smoking crack.

[European BallerParticipant]

I have no idea why the NBA wants nothing to do with Spanoulis. This is the point. You keep saying things that are not related like "if he was really so good".

That’s the point, he IS that good. Yet the NBA benched him, and then other than the Spurs, no other teams tried to get him. What I know is, the Warriors and Spurs did try to get him, but they were not interested in offering him anything that would help hsi concerns.

Like, he was benched all year by the Rockets and never even got an explanation why. So he wanted an assurance it would not happen again and the Warriors and Spurs would not give it to him. Why not? An American player of his level would have gotten it.

Besides, you know what Adelman said about Spanoulis? When he took over the Rockets, he watched all the games from the previous season when Van Gundy coached them. He said about Spanoulis just that,

"I watched all the games. I have absolutely no idea as to why he did not play. I have no idea at all. From what I saw he looked good to me. He will play for me."

Then, within a few days he was out of the NBA.

The Spurs wanted him and sent Tony Parker to Greece to meet him and have dinner with him. He was given a note from Popovich, asking him to join the team and Parker wanted him to. But he was already signed in Greece.

That’s that. Never has the NBA made any attempts to get him.

You ask about Navarro……..he owed 10 million euros on his buyout to Barca and he had to go back or pay it. So he requested the MLE for 5 years from NBA teams. No teams offered it. He had to go back because he could not pay the buyout with the little money NBA teams offered.

Meanwhile, Spanish national players that can’t hold Navarro’s jock, Calderon, Rubio, Marc Gasol, Ibaka, Fernandex all get good roles in NBA rotations. And Navarro is "not good enough for the nBA" according to NBA fans.

The NBA fans call Spanoulis "NBA bench scrub". While all he is doing is playing great in the same league that Brandon Jennings, Ricky Rubio, and Ty Lawson struggled in.

[JunkYardDogParticipant]

I’m not JVG…. I just try to understand his decision (a little bit more than just he’s racist he doesn’t like greek players).

I think JVG only wanted to win games, and if he felt alston was better suited to distribute the ball to Tmac and Yao than spanoulis… well that says a lot of what he was thinking of spanoulis as a pg cause alston was not the perfect definition of a "first pass pg".

Right or wrong I don’t give a sh*t. I’m not him. But spanoulis as navarro didn’t spend so much time in the nba whereas the were very talented cause they knew they could be successfull (get playing time, reponsabilities, trust from their coaches) easier if they came back here in europe. Home sweet home….

 

 

[aamir543Participant]

All of the Spanish players you mentioned are good players, I know Navaro is a good player too, and he is a better scorer than all teh guys you mentioned, but still, those  guys are good too.

And Ibaka has great potential, if he expands his offensive game, and continues to improve on D, he looks like he is on his way to be a solid NBA starter along the lines of 13 and 9 with 3 blocks a game.

[r377Participant]

Hey European Baller –

what do you think of Dario Saric ?

[Krypt14Participant]

 Euro baller, some players just do not have the skillset to play effectively in different leagues. Igor Rakocevic has been dominant in Europe the past decade and never stuck in the NBA. Rubio was dominant at European underage competition, but seemed to regress during his time in Barcelona yet now he is thriving in a different league. NBA scouts know better than anyone else who has the ability to succeed in the NBA and if they see a guy who can play they will inform their GM.

Also, did you ever consider that if all these guys are as good as you are saying it might be in their interest to not get drafted and end up signing a 1 year deal which would allow them to get a big pay day sooner like Wes Matthews?

[European BallerParticipant]

NBA scouts don’t know a damn thing.

You mention Rubio……he shoots 37% from teh field and 32% from 3 point line, he is turnover prone, and he is very mediocre at running an offense and pick and roll in the half court. If he ever got to deep in NBA playoffs, like conference finals and up, where teams are actually playing defense, he will be exposed, just like he was in the Euroleague.

Because he cannot shoot, cannot create his own shot, is average play maker in half court, cannot finish, etc.

Rakocevic has never been "dominant" in Europe. What is this nonsense? Igor is a great shooter anbd scorer coming off screens and picks. That is it. He was like Euroleague version of Rip Hamilton, except he never oplayed defense.

If defense lacking Rip Hamilton, is considered "dominant" by you, then you sure have no clue about basketball. With this being said, Rakocevic is like 10 times better player than Eddie House, who stays in NBA for years. So once again, it shows NBA bias and manipulations.

Like, very good offensive player at his prime (bad defender) is "dominant" in Euroleague (untrue), but "sucked in NBA" and "cannot play there because his game did not translate" (wrong).

 

Rakocevic had 43 INCH VERTICAL when he came to the NBA. He is one of the greatest dunkers in the history of European basketball. Yet you are making this nonsense implication that he is noth athletic enough for the NBA, so his game "cannot translate".

More complete BS. And a bunch of made up nonsense, trying to make the Euroelague and its players seem worse than they really are, and trying to make the NBA ann its players seem better than they really are.

[Krypt14Participant]

 I’m sorry, I would have considered 2 all Euroleague teams, 3 Turkish league top scorers, Adriatic league MVP and top scorer and titles in numerous leagues in Europe as being fairly dominant. He played with a number of the top teams in Europe over a 10 year period.

Rubio is by no means perfect, he is turnover prone and not a great scorer…but to suggest he is ‘average’ in the half court and ‘mediocre’ at running the pick and roll is crazy.

If you read my post properly and didn’t jump to conclusions you would have seen that I never said Rakocevic ‘sucked’, I said he never stuck. Also I would appreciate if you could point out to me where I implied where he was not athletic enough to play in the NBA?

Finally, Rakocevic is a Point Guard, and primary ball handler and plays nothing like Hamilton.

 

[European BallerParticipant]

Another NBA fan that knows nothing about European basketball and PRETENDS to be an expert on it. Rakocevic is a shooting guard. He has never in his life been a point guard.

He plays EXACTLY like Rip Hamilton.

 

He has never in his life been anything close to "dominant" in Euroleague. I had to laugh for a good 5 minutes just considering you actually make such a claim as this.If anything, he is one of the most hated players by the fans of every team he played on. 

Do not talk about subjects that you clearly know nothing about.

This is the reason why NBA fans are such rude and arrogant jerks. They go and make insane and ridiculous claims like Rakocevic was "dominant" in Euroleague. And then make completely false and untrue statements like "he is a point guard".

Then, act like the other person calling out their lies is some kind of troll that does not know a thing about basketball. Seriously, NBA fans are so awful.

[Knicksboy42Participant]

 Rubio is one of the best defensive points in the league though TOL.

[aamir543Participant]

Euroballer, chil a bit. I don’t mind you posting because you know your stuff, but first of all, 90% of the posters here do not make claims that upset you, such as that Spanoulis and Navaro cannot play in the NBA. It may be some of  the other ten percent that make claims that upset you.

The fact of the matter is that we can only judge things off of what we’ve seen, and I honestly don’t know much about Spanoulis, so I won’t take into consideration that he was out of hte leageu by choice.

And it is bad luck that Spanoulis didn’t get a job. Think about it, Rashard Mcants can’t even get a job. There are a lot of good American players rotting on NBA benches as it is. Anthony Randolph is very promising, but even he hasn’t gotten his shot yet. If Spanoulis was really good, and had stuck around for just one more season, than he may have gotten his big break, but I don’t believe that the general public of hardcore fans are as ignorant as you propose they are. Now the casual fan and American might be stupid and dignorant enough to think that Rudy is better than Navaro, but not hard core fans like us.

[aamir543Participant]

And Rubio is top 20 in the league in defensive win shares. He might not have been a great Euro League defender, but in the NBA he is able to put great on ball pressure because of the point I was making earlier in this thread about defensive schemes. Rubio goes for the steal and reads the paly well, and he might get beat rather easily, but he doesn’t have to worry about because Love and Pekovic are behind him for the Help D.

[NihochuParticipant]

yo Nba Draft need to freeze this bitches acount

[NihochuParticipant]

Nba draft neeeeeeeed to freeze europeanballer’s account

[European BallerParticipant]

And Rubio is top 20 in the league in defensive win shares. He might not have been a great Euro League defender, but in the NBA he is able to put great on ball pressure because of the point I was making earlier in this thread about defensive schemes. Rubio goes for the steal and reads the paly well, and he might get beat rather easily, but he doesn’t have to worry about because Love and Pekovic are behind him for the Help D.

I am not saying Rubio isn’t a good defender. He is a very good defender. Of course he struggles sometimes on defense, because his lateral speed is not the best. But that is the NBA rules. No nhelp in the lane and no hand checking, and lots of one to one guard play.

Every single point guard in the NBA struggles on defense really, just look at the stats. The NBA rules are a sham and make all these mediocre guards into offensive stars.

Rubio is a very agressive defender, smart on defense, good at getting steals, and can pressure the ball. In the Euroleague, the best part of his game was his defense. Of course there the refs allow hand checking, and he hand checked like no other player. In the NBA, those are fouls, so he can’t get away with it like that.

I’m not saying Rubio is a bad defender. My point was, Rubio is being praised in the NBA circles for his defense. Well, to be honest, while he is a good defender, and yes, I am saying he IS a good defender – I was just explaining that Mantzaris is a much better defender.

Rubio in Euroelague for example, was a very good defender, but he was not locking anyone down. For example, as I said, Diamantidis DESTROYED him last year. Check out the Euroleague playoffs between Barca and Panathinaikos if you dont believe it.

I was just saying, in comparison to Mantzaris. Mantzaris is not just a very good defender, he is locking people down. I mean, totally shutting down Diamantidis, held Deron Williams to 2 points in 20 minutes of guarsing him when they played in a tournament earlier in the year. The guy is locking people down almost always. I can only remember one game this year where he played bad on defense. There was a game, I forget against what team now, they had a small quick point guard and he was getting beat off the dribble.

But other than that, he was pretty much completely shutting down everybody on defense all year long. So my point was just that, if Rubio is getting cred for his defense in the NBA, then it’s odd that Mantzaris cannot even get on a mock draft. Considering, really, this guy might already be a top 5 defender in Euroleague at age 21.

Rubio is a good defender. I wasn’t trying to say he isn’t.

[Krypt14Participant]

 Aamir +1 for your diplomatic opinion here. Also European Baller +1 as well, I wish you would contribute your insight like your last post more regularly. That last post shows your knowledge a lot better than insulting people or claiming some NBA bias against Euros. I’m European by the way.

[aamir543Participant]

"Every single point guard in the NBA struggles on defense really, just look at the stats. The NBA rules are a sham and make all these mediocre guards into offensive stars."

Other than Rondo, yes, most guards struggle mightily on defense. But the reason is because their offensive counterparts are so much better. Plus I think fatigue in an NBA season most heavily affects perimeter defenders’ ability to stay with their man.

 

Guards in the NBA are extremely skilled dribblers, and could get by defenders with ease most of the time. When I say that, I don’t mean breaking someone’s ankles and making them look silly, but just using their quickness to get by them. The reason guards can’t put their head down and charge down the lane is because the help D is there and bad things happen when you try to go through 6’10 giants.

 

Back to my point, some guys don’t even try on D, and some guys just aren’t good at it. Our culture places moe emphasis on offensive skills which is why unfortunatly Defense is overlooked, which is a shame. I wish we had more guys like Bruce Bowen, look your best guy down and hit the corner three.

 

Mantzaris is a really great defender, but if he doesn’t have the offensive game to play in the NBA, or the height to guard multiple positions. He is 6-5, so he can guard the one adn the two, but guys like Bruce Bowen and Shane Battier were able to guard any perimeter player even upto Durant and T-Mac’s height at 6-9, 6-10. Scouts are looking for a complete game, and Mantzris also has be able to take a beating as a defender too.

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