[SubZeroParticipant]

A question I had going into the Finals was, does KLove actually help your team win games? Not talking about random regular season games and 1st round games, I mean the big games. Games they’re playing right now, or would be playing against OKC, San Antonio, or LAC. It seems to me that when it comes down to it, he’s very much a negative player when it counts. He can shoot and rebound, but he can’t really pass and gives up way more points than he earns you.

I might be alone here, but it seems that Cleveland is better off without him.

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

 Absolutely!

 

Signed,

The Golden State Warriors

 

 

 

 

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

 Absolutely!

 

Signed,

The Golden State Warriors

 

 

 

 

[zcnumerounoParticipant]

As of right now, I don’t think so. He’s a nice stretch 4 who can rebound, but he is prone to cold spells, as we’ve seen from these Finals, and he’s a turnstile defensively…

One-dimensional players get exposed in big games, and he’s getting exposed, especially on D. Hindsight is 20/20, but the Cavs really should’ve kept Wiggins, who’s looking like a two-way stud.

[zcnumerounoParticipant]

As of right now, I don’t think so. He’s a nice stretch 4 who can rebound, but he is prone to cold spells, as we’ve seen from these Finals, and he’s a turnstile defensively…

One-dimensional players get exposed in big games, and he’s getting exposed, especially on D. Hindsight is 20/20, but the Cavs really should’ve kept Wiggins, who’s looking like a two-way stud.

[machu46Participant]

I don’t know where the idea that Love can’t pass comes from.  His passing is almost undoubtedly a strength IMO.  Sure, he contributes to winning.  It’s just that Golden State is a much better team than Cleveland is.  I think it’s pretty difficult to argue that an efficient scorer giving you 18ish along with good rebounding and passing while also giving you a good +/- is a negative player.

[machu46Participant]

I don’t know where the idea that Love can’t pass comes from.  His passing is almost undoubtedly a strength IMO.  Sure, he contributes to winning.  It’s just that Golden State is a much better team than Cleveland is.  I think it’s pretty difficult to argue that an efficient scorer giving you 18ish along with good rebounding and passing while also giving you a good +/- is a negative player.

[Make’Em Say UGHParticipant]

During last night’s game the cast highlighted how Livingston hasn’t taken a single 3 during these playoffs. How he remained himself at all times through his career (even during the dark times) and plays to his strengths.

It’s been stated before, but I see the exact opposite when I look at Kevin Love. His game has been marginalized to the point of no return. Hard to imagine when he was once considered one of the best PF’s in the game. I always revert back to one game in particular when neither Blake or Deandre could stop him….clearly not the same guy now. Sad because I was a huge fan.

I remember the summer Love dropped alot of pounds and added 3 point shooting to his repertoire. Ironic, because it seems these days thats the only part of his game.

 

[doubledribblerParticipant]

I think the worst part of his game was when he started shooting too many 3s. There was nothing wrong with adding to his game, but he became less efficient once he went from about 2-3 a game to 5-6. As a big with the ability to score all over the floor, you lose some of your ability to rebound when you spend a lot of time away from the basket and you lose the ability to draw fouls and get to the line. It’s the same thing that I hate about what the Hawks have tried to do with Horford.

I still don’t fault the Cavs for making the trade for him and I wouldn’t fault a team like the Celtics from taking a chance on him if they can’t land anyone. Everyone knew he was bad on defense, but he was a great rebounder and offensive player. Everything with him right now is mental, but maybe he needs to go elsewhere. Hopefully he’s not broken, but there is an issue when your coaches, all your teammates, fans, and even you, always talk about your confidence. It’s like everyone is trying to be his psychologist. It’s easier for people to accept you being up and down when all your are is a 6th man or role player, but it’s not the same when you are seen as a cornerstone.

Just to be clear, these comments have nothing to do with the Cavs getting beat. Year one you cut guys a break because they are adjusting. Year two and he looks about the same. He seems to have greater highs and lows on the court this year and he’s not doing anything consistently. If this is what you are getting from him, you are better off with a Channing Frye or Ryan Anderson.

 

 

[doubledribblerParticipant]

I think the worst part of his game was when he started shooting too many 3s. There was nothing wrong with adding to his game, but he became less efficient once he went from about 2-3 a game to 5-6. As a big with the ability to score all over the floor, you lose some of your ability to rebound when you spend a lot of time away from the basket and you lose the ability to draw fouls and get to the line. It’s the same thing that I hate about what the Hawks have tried to do with Horford.

I still don’t fault the Cavs for making the trade for him and I wouldn’t fault a team like the Celtics from taking a chance on him if they can’t land anyone. Everyone knew he was bad on defense, but he was a great rebounder and offensive player. Everything with him right now is mental, but maybe he needs to go elsewhere. Hopefully he’s not broken, but there is an issue when your coaches, all your teammates, fans, and even you, always talk about your confidence. It’s like everyone is trying to be his psychologist. It’s easier for people to accept you being up and down when all your are is a 6th man or role player, but it’s not the same when you are seen as a cornerstone.

Just to be clear, these comments have nothing to do with the Cavs getting beat. Year one you cut guys a break because they are adjusting. Year two and he looks about the same. He seems to have greater highs and lows on the court this year and he’s not doing anything consistently. If this is what you are getting from him, you are better off with a Channing Frye or Ryan Anderson.

 

 

[Make’Em Say UGHParticipant]

During last night’s game the cast highlighted how Livingston hasn’t taken a single 3 during these playoffs. How he remained himself at all times through his career (even during the dark times) and plays to his strengths.

It’s been stated before, but I see the exact opposite when I look at Kevin Love. His game has been marginalized to the point of no return. Hard to imagine when he was once considered one of the best PF’s in the game. I always revert back to one game in particular when neither Blake or Deandre could stop him….clearly not the same guy now. Sad because I was a huge fan.

I remember the summer Love dropped alot of pounds and added 3 point shooting to his repertoire. Ironic, because it seems these days thats the only part of his game.

 

[DukeDaSquadParticipant]

 Lebron overachieves with bad players and underachieves with good players. Its the story of his career. Regardless of Love’s play this series, the cavs had/have no chance against the Warriors

[doubledribblerParticipant]

I don’t really see that. He didn’t have great teams in Cleveland. There was a thing on ESPN that ranked the finals teams and he had the worst two teams to make the finals. The only series where he was the favorite was against the Mavs. I think that was the healthiest Wade was with Lebron and the most dynamic that Bosh was during that time. The problem is you round out that roster with Mike Bibby who hadn’t been good in years and Joel Anthony. Lebron was historically awful that series, Dirk was on fire, and Carlisle made all the right adjustments, and it still made it to 4-2. I would say that the Warriors and Spurs would have been favored over them this year. Cavs would have been favored over anyone else. It was a 4 team race all year long and the 3rd and 4th teams had to be on point to take it from the other two.

[doubledribblerParticipant]

I don’t really see that. He didn’t have great teams in Cleveland. There was a thing on ESPN that ranked the finals teams and he had the worst two teams to make the finals. The only series where he was the favorite was against the Mavs. I think that was the healthiest Wade was with Lebron and the most dynamic that Bosh was during that time. The problem is you round out that roster with Mike Bibby who hadn’t been good in years and Joel Anthony. Lebron was historically awful that series, Dirk was on fire, and Carlisle made all the right adjustments, and it still made it to 4-2. I would say that the Warriors and Spurs would have been favored over them this year. Cavs would have been favored over anyone else. It was a 4 team race all year long and the 3rd and 4th teams had to be on point to take it from the other two.

[DukeDaSquadParticipant]

Youre disagreeing with my post, but your basically supporting the statement that I made…

[DukeDaSquadParticipant]

Youre disagreeing with my post, but your basically supporting the statement that I made…

[sixersman111Participant]

The sixers with iverson were the worst team ever to make a finals.  I would only take 2 players from that team other than iverson.

[sixersman111Participant]

The sixers with iverson were the worst team ever to make a finals.  I would only take 2 players from that team other than iverson.

[GBeeParticipant]

 Agreed. Marginalized players appear devalued.  Love is being marginalized and is almost exclusively being utilized as a floor spacer, which is not the only dimension he has offensively. He’s a good passer who you can run cutters off of, he’s a selective, but good post player (.98 ppp in post up situations, 83rd percentile in the league), has a mid-post face up jumper and he’s still a very good offensive rebounder.  Camp him on the 3 point line and you eliminate all those other aspects of his game.  For his sake, he should’ve never re-signed with the LeBrons.  He never fit in stylistically or in terms or personality. In a better structured, less generic, less LeBron-centric offensive system, Love would be a bigger contributor offensively.  Defensively, he has to be hidden though.  With their current construction, Mozgov would’ve been a better fit next to Love but Moz isn’t Lebron’s boy and his buddies didn’t just give him an undeserved contract.

[GBeeParticipant]

 Agreed. Marginalized players appear devalued.  Love is being marginalized and is almost exclusively being utilized as a floor spacer, which is not the only dimension he has offensively. He’s a good passer who you can run cutters off of, he’s a selective, but good post player (.98 ppp in post up situations, 83rd percentile in the league), has a mid-post face up jumper and he’s still a very good offensive rebounder.  Camp him on the 3 point line and you eliminate all those other aspects of his game.  For his sake, he should’ve never re-signed with the LeBrons.  He never fit in stylistically or in terms or personality. In a better structured, less generic, less LeBron-centric offensive system, Love would be a bigger contributor offensively.  Defensively, he has to be hidden though.  With their current construction, Mozgov would’ve been a better fit next to Love but Moz isn’t Lebron’s boy and his buddies didn’t just give him an undeserved contract.

[DukeDaSquadParticipant]

 Lebron overachieves with bad players and underachieves with good players. Its the story of his career. Regardless of Love’s play this series, the cavs had/have no chance against the Warriors

[SeattleSuperChronicsParticipant]

 If love isn’t hitting 3s he’s worthless 

[SeattleSuperChronicsParticipant]

 If love isn’t hitting 3s he’s worthless 

[nill650Participant]

 The warriors have done an excellent job of containing him, he does’nt look at all like the player he has been for the majority of the post season.

jumping to the conclusion that he sucks is devaluing the quality of GSW defense on him thus far.

he is a double double machine as 3rd option. he had always been a liability on defense, but has improved tremendously against the average ec playoff rosters, but against GSW no opposing team can be a liability on defense as a unit or they will make you pay… hell thats why in addition to highly questionable GSW favored officiating so far in this series, the warriors get double teamed by the cavs , the cavs accomplish thier goal of shutting down high % shooters, and leave a average shooter open and i mean wide open…and he delivers. 

The Cavs have no chance in this series if they cannot defend without double teaming, and to do that requires so much energy even more than we have seen thus far in losing efforts and they still need to increase their offensive production from thier bench.

GSW probably looks like thev’e won the finals before it even bagan thanks to league driven officating and mafia controlled outcomes. That is about to change.

[nill650Participant]

 The warriors have done an excellent job of containing him, he does’nt look at all like the player he has been for the majority of the post season.

jumping to the conclusion that he sucks is devaluing the quality of GSW defense on him thus far.

he is a double double machine as 3rd option. he had always been a liability on defense, but has improved tremendously against the average ec playoff rosters, but against GSW no opposing team can be a liability on defense as a unit or they will make you pay… hell thats why in addition to highly questionable GSW favored officiating so far in this series, the warriors get double teamed by the cavs , the cavs accomplish thier goal of shutting down high % shooters, and leave a average shooter open and i mean wide open…and he delivers. 

The Cavs have no chance in this series if they cannot defend without double teaming, and to do that requires so much energy even more than we have seen thus far in losing efforts and they still need to increase their offensive production from thier bench.

GSW probably looks like thev’e won the finals before it even bagan thanks to league driven officating and mafia controlled outcomes. That is about to change.

[MorseWillParticipant]

 Cavs would be far more dangerous with a lineup of…

Kyrie, JR, Wiggins, Lebron and Thompson.

Wiggins defense would be much needed in this small ball series. Everybody will bring up the outside shooting but how about some ball movement and cutting from the Cavs to work and move the defense. I’m a fan of Love but he’s getting exposed at times and I feel Wiggins would’ve been a better piece going forward for the Cavs…

[MorseWillParticipant]

 Cavs would be far more dangerous with a lineup of…

Kyrie, JR, Wiggins, Lebron and Thompson.

Wiggins defense would be much needed in this small ball series. Everybody will bring up the outside shooting but how about some ball movement and cutting from the Cavs to work and move the defense. I’m a fan of Love but he’s getting exposed at times and I feel Wiggins would’ve been a better piece going forward for the Cavs…

[GBeeParticipant]

 In this thread, a couple of posters don’t realize that Wiggins has actually been a sht defender in the league so far.

He would not have provided more help than Love on either end.  Long-term is a different story, but just in terms of contributing to the goal of getting a chip these past couple of years? Nope.

 

[GBeeParticipant]

 In this thread, a couple of posters don’t realize that Wiggins has actually been a sht defender in the league so far.

He would not have provided more help than Love on either end.  Long-term is a different story, but just in terms of contributing to the goal of getting a chip these past couple of years? Nope.

 

[Helo1324Participant]

 Im not making excuses for Love…but has it not occured to anyone that it is the poorly constructed offense that has bogged Love down ?  You can’t completely blame Kev because the Cavaliers play mostly ISO heavy offensive sets anytime the going gets tough….sure they were moving the ball and shooting it well in the Easter Conference leading up to this….but its easy to play that way when the competition isn’t close to your level and you’re up 20…..THIS has always been Lebron’s issue and is why he is about to be 2-4 in the Finals all time…..the Miami teams even struggled with this at times….they just had enough talent to get over the hump anyway….look at Dallas, Spurs twice and now the Warriors….they all had/have supreme ball movement within their offense and elite level coaching.  IMO LBJ has always tried to dictate too much of what sets are run as opposed to conceding (and possibly just never playing for) a high level coaching staff…..the question is, is that because he hasn’t had the opportunity to play for one, or has his nature kept those coaches away and/or from blossoming….

[Helo1324Participant]

 Im not making excuses for Love…but has it not occured to anyone that it is the poorly constructed offense that has bogged Love down ?  You can’t completely blame Kev because the Cavaliers play mostly ISO heavy offensive sets anytime the going gets tough….sure they were moving the ball and shooting it well in the Easter Conference leading up to this….but its easy to play that way when the competition isn’t close to your level and you’re up 20…..THIS has always been Lebron’s issue and is why he is about to be 2-4 in the Finals all time…..the Miami teams even struggled with this at times….they just had enough talent to get over the hump anyway….look at Dallas, Spurs twice and now the Warriors….they all had/have supreme ball movement within their offense and elite level coaching.  IMO LBJ has always tried to dictate too much of what sets are run as opposed to conceding (and possibly just never playing for) a high level coaching staff…..the question is, is that because he hasn’t had the opportunity to play for one, or has his nature kept those coaches away and/or from blossoming….

[BiggysmallsParticipant]

 Love needs to be in a system where there isn’t a defined "first option" or "second option"

Cleveland has that. He’s the defined "third option" and it basically feels like the Cavs will draw up a play for him once every four or five times down the floor so that they feel like they are at least trying. That’s not his strength. 

He’s a good outside shooter, but he was an offensive force in MN because of his ability to hit the offensive glass, score on the post, pass at the high post and then hit 3-pointers. He was lethal in transition using drag screens for 3s. He’s a catch and shoot guy in Cleveland and he can’t get into any rhythm doing that. 

On top of that, he’s not a good defender so his lack of offense looks worse. 

If the Cavs want to use him right, he can give them 20-22 points on 14 or so shots, but they seem to want him to be a better version of Channing Frye and just space the floor…which he’s not. 

 

 

 

 

[BiggysmallsParticipant]

 Love needs to be in a system where there isn’t a defined "first option" or "second option"

Cleveland has that. He’s the defined "third option" and it basically feels like the Cavs will draw up a play for him once every four or five times down the floor so that they feel like they are at least trying. That’s not his strength. 

He’s a good outside shooter, but he was an offensive force in MN because of his ability to hit the offensive glass, score on the post, pass at the high post and then hit 3-pointers. He was lethal in transition using drag screens for 3s. He’s a catch and shoot guy in Cleveland and he can’t get into any rhythm doing that. 

On top of that, he’s not a good defender so his lack of offense looks worse. 

If the Cavs want to use him right, he can give them 20-22 points on 14 or so shots, but they seem to want him to be a better version of Channing Frye and just space the floor…which he’s not. 

 

 

 

 

[holefillers1Participant]

 You can put Kyrie on that list right next to Love.  Lebron needs all around players, stars in fact…not a PG, SG and C that can’t defend.  

[holefillers1Participant]

 You can put Kyrie on that list right next to Love.  Lebron needs all around players, stars in fact…not a PG, SG and C that can’t defend.  

[losnopesosParticipant]

The real culprit here is giving a player so much control over the team.  Yes, Lebron is a great player.  So he wants to trade an unreal athlete for a pudgy, under the rim short PF.  He gets a good coach fired, and so far the move hasn’t paid off because they were 1-1 last year.  

I understand players wanting to control more about the process, but managing basketball and playing are two unrelated things (case in point the GOAT, MJ).  Lebron will demand that Love is traded after relegating him to the three point line and putting a landmine in his career path.  Then he’ll ship JR Smith off, and then give Shumpert away for peanuts.  The story ends with Lebron begging and pleading to join the Dubs after he sets the NBA record for most consecutive finals losses.

[losnopesosParticipant]

The real culprit here is giving a player so much control over the team.  Yes, Lebron is a great player.  So he wants to trade an unreal athlete for a pudgy, under the rim short PF.  He gets a good coach fired, and so far the move hasn’t paid off because they were 1-1 last year.  

I understand players wanting to control more about the process, but managing basketball and playing are two unrelated things (case in point the GOAT, MJ).  Lebron will demand that Love is traded after relegating him to the three point line and putting a landmine in his career path.  Then he’ll ship JR Smith off, and then give Shumpert away for peanuts.  The story ends with Lebron begging and pleading to join the Dubs after he sets the NBA record for most consecutive finals losses.

[HitsterParticipant]

 With the money that the Cavs are paying K-Love, they need to play more to his strengths and not just see him as a glorified stretch 4. If they just wanted a 3 point shooter option at PF then play Frye or make a move for Ryan Anderson etc.

K-Love was never on a winning season at the T-Wolves and at the Cavs he is on the same team as LBJ so it is hard to judge how much he contributes to a winning team compared to his peers.

 

[holefillers1Participant]

 It’s a tough role for Love. He gets bumped out to the three point line like Bosh did.  

[holefillers1Participant]

 It’s a tough role for Love. He gets bumped out to the three point line like Bosh did.  

[HitsterParticipant]

 With the money that the Cavs are paying K-Love, they need to play more to his strengths and not just see him as a glorified stretch 4. If they just wanted a 3 point shooter option at PF then play Frye or make a move for Ryan Anderson etc.

K-Love was never on a winning season at the T-Wolves and at the Cavs he is on the same team as LBJ so it is hard to judge how much he contributes to a winning team compared to his peers.

 

[BKGingerSnapParticipant]

I remember when the Love trade first happened, Chris Bosh basically said (I’m paraphrasing), "It’s really difficult to play with Lebron and Kevin will have to completely adjust his game". I definitely think that’s been the case. A few things to note.

Due to Lebron’s size and athletisicm, Lebron team’s have always wanted to spread the floor so he can drive to the rim and kick out and create and do ridiculous Lebron things.

1. This has forced Love into a difficult situation because it means, the offense does not run through him as it did in Minnesota. 

2. Love is forced to either try play the 5 where he just will get absused defensively or play stretch 4 which hurts his rebounding numbers, as he is a technique and box out rebounder instead of a athletisicm/crash the borads rebounder.

3. While everyone assumes Kevin Love is a really good 3pt shooter cause he’s white and put up huge numbers in Minnesota, He actually only shot above 38% from 3 once in his career and on the cavs has shot 36.7% and 36% from 3 these past 2 seasons. He’s not the sharp shooter people think he is. 

This is why I would absolutely try and pursue Love if I was the Celtics. Getting traded would light a fire under his ass too. 

 

 

[BKGingerSnapParticipant]

I remember when the Love trade first happened, Chris Bosh basically said (I’m paraphrasing), "It’s really difficult to play with Lebron and Kevin will have to completely adjust his game". I definitely think that’s been the case. A few things to note.

Due to Lebron’s size and athletisicm, Lebron team’s have always wanted to spread the floor so he can drive to the rim and kick out and create and do ridiculous Lebron things.

1. This has forced Love into a difficult situation because it means, the offense does not run through him as it did in Minnesota. 

2. Love is forced to either try play the 5 where he just will get absused defensively or play stretch 4 which hurts his rebounding numbers, as he is a technique and box out rebounder instead of a athletisicm/crash the borads rebounder.

3. While everyone assumes Kevin Love is a really good 3pt shooter cause he’s white and put up huge numbers in Minnesota, He actually only shot above 38% from 3 once in his career and on the cavs has shot 36.7% and 36% from 3 these past 2 seasons. He’s not the sharp shooter people think he is. 

This is why I would absolutely try and pursue Love if I was the Celtics. Getting traded would light a fire under his ass too. 

 

 

[theballerwayParticipant]

He took the Chris Bosh role. Love was never a 2 way monster but playing with Lebron has these effects.

Hopefully Lue or Lebron, whoevers coaching lol can find some better spots for him. Even if its durinng the moments when Lebron has the ball.

– Just to point out how difficult it is to build a team around Lebron just think how much fun a team would have trying to do that with simmons who is not half a bron.

[theballerwayParticipant]

He took the Chris Bosh role. Love was never a 2 way monster but playing with Lebron has these effects.

Hopefully Lue or Lebron, whoevers coaching lol can find some better spots for him. Even if its durinng the moments when Lebron has the ball.

– Just to point out how difficult it is to build a team around Lebron just think how much fun a team would have trying to do that with simmons who is not half a bron.

[A Lil EnglishParticipant]

To answer the question about Love, Cleveland with a shoot first PG like Irving and Lebron who can play well from the elbow is not a great fit unless he is shooting lights out from outside. Minnesota with Ricky Rubio catering for him was a better fit to get good production out of him.

 

[A Lil EnglishParticipant]

To answer the question about Love, Cleveland with a shoot first PG like Irving and Lebron who can play well from the elbow is not a great fit unless he is shooting lights out from outside. Minnesota with Ricky Rubio catering for him was a better fit to get good production out of him.

 

[OhCanada-Participant]

 Love has been terrible in these Playoffs. Let’s be honest for the Cavs the postseason started on Toronto. In the 8 games vs. Toronto and GSW he has averaged. 14-ppg, 6-rpg, 2-apg while shooting 41% fg and 42% 3pt. This is not good no matter what. I don’t care where he plays offensively he should be playing better basketball. He gets benched and criticized for very good reasons. Just doesn’t seem into the Lebrons show.

[OhCanada-Participant]

 Love has been terrible in these Playoffs. Let’s be honest for the Cavs the postseason started on Toronto. In the 8 games vs. Toronto and GSW he has averaged. 14-ppg, 6-rpg, 2-apg while shooting 41% fg and 42% 3pt. This is not good no matter what. I don’t care where he plays offensively he should be playing better basketball. He gets benched and criticized for very good reasons. Just doesn’t seem into the Lebrons show.

[A Lil EnglishParticipant]

But (other than the holefillers guy) we can give Kyrie a pass despite shooting 33.3% so far this series and 1 for 7 from 3???

[A Lil EnglishParticipant]

But (other than the holefillers guy) we can give Kyrie a pass despite shooting 33.3% so far this series and 1 for 7 from 3???

[Author]

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