[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

Cleveland wasn’t the good team people thought they are. All they had was one of the greatest small forward of all time. One of the greatest PLAYERS of all time.

Shaq only got about 20 minutes per game so it’s obvious he cant play for long periods of time. How was he suppose to keep up with Dwights 35mpg?

Mo Williams, what was all the hype with this guy? Why do people think he choked in the playoffs? You can’t choke if you really aren’t that good, you’re just playing your average game. He came off a 12ppg 42%FG shooting season when he went to CLE and everyone was so excited for him.. Idk why.

Antawn Jamison, I have nothing bad to say about this guy. I actually thought this addition would lead them to the finals. He’s a 20-8 guy that doesn’t mind taking the backseat to anybody. He’s a low maintenance player but he’s very confident.. Problem is, he’s going to be 33 this summer.. How was he ever going to be a solid 2nd option for a player who still has 8-10 good years left in him? Jamison obviously only has about 2 good years. Maybe.

Zydrunas came back after a month vacation only to play 8 mpg?

Varejao is overpayed.

Moon was a good addition and did exactly what was expected of him.. play a couple of minutes here and there and score here and there.

Parker shot 43% but lets face it, nobody expected him to average more than 8ppg so he basically did his job.

The Celtics were KG-less last year and he nearly made it to the Conf Finals as they lost to the Magic after a 4th Qtr meltdown. The C’s are a playoff team without KG. They are a playoff team w/KG and no Pierce. If they lose Ray Allen and have Pierce and KG, they’re still a playoff team.

The Lakers are still a playoff team without Kobe. Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Artest.. You can’t tell me that’s not a playoff team.

The Magic without Dwight are still a playoff team. Especially in the East. You bring in Marcin Gortat who can easily be a 8-10 guy and he spreads the floor a bit more.

The Cavs without LeBron ARE NOT A PLAYOFF TEAM. Who’s going to be their offensive leader? Jamison? At 33? A team that has a 33yr old Jamison as their best player and Mo Williams as their 2nd option. Isn’t a good team.

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

….Cleveland without LBJ is a playoff team.

Plus, Noone wants to say it so I will:

When The Main 4 for Boston is all healthy…noone has beaten them.

Let’s give Boston more credit and stop blaming Cleveland.

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

Yeah I’m not taking anything from Boston.. I even stated that they nearly made the Conf Finals without KG.

Cleveland without LBJ is not a playoff team.

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

Yes, Cleveland is a playoff team.

Mo Williams, Antwan Jamison could lead this team to a 6-8 seed. The offense would be different however.

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

If a team like the ’06 Wizards were 40-42 with players like:
Antawn Jamison 19.8ppg – 8.0rpg
Gilbert Arenas 28.4ppg – 6apg
Caron Butler 19.1ppg – 7.4rpg

Now a team like this will make the playoffs?
Mo Williams
Antawn Jamison
Anderson Varejao

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

PRE-LeBron

Mo Williams: 12ppg 42%FG shooting
Jamison: 20ppg, 6rpg

their 2 best players are probably the 2 worst defenders at their position among starters.

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

The East is weak. Your also not realizing that some players would get more PT and would have to factor in different ways

– J.J. Hickson would get more PT. He could be a 16-8 player with more PT
– Anthony Parker is a shooter. He could average 9-12
– Moon could average 8-12
– West could average 8-14

You have to take some of these other players in account as well.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Williams/Gibson/Telfair
Parker/West
Jamison/Moon
Varejao/Hickson
Shaq/Illguaskas

That’s a playoff team.

[McWinningParticipant]

Defense. Moon, and Varajao, and West are all great defenders, as well as Shaq, this team is loaded with role players, and have two good scorers in Williams, and Jamison who arent selfish. I think they get the eighth seed.

[McWinningParticipant]

Lol Williams averaged over 17 points, and 6 assists before Lebron. Hes a decent second option.

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

Shaq isn’t going back to CLE..

He wanted to win another ring to top Kobe.. You really think he’s going to waste another year on a team he knows won’t win?

I’m not buying the Hickson stuff.

Another thing you guys have to take into account is that, nobody on this team can really create their own shot, aside from Jamison.. And pulling up for 30 footers isn’t creating your own shot, I’m talking to you Mo Williams.

Most of this guys did well because LeBron was getting double or tripled and that left some guys open.

[McWinningParticipant]

Parker, and Hickson would do well too, i think they both would be double figure scorers.

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

Mo was a 17ppg guy on a team that went 28-54

[McWinningParticipant]

Jamison was a consistant 20 point scorer before, and Williams would go back to what his numbers were before he cam to Cleveland, maybe more around 17 6 3 1.5 shooting 48% from the field, thats very good for a guard, hes a legit second option.

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

Mo Williams is not a number two. He’s a #3.

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

William? A legit 2nd option? Did you guys watch him at all this season/post season?

Problem with Jamison is, he’s a horrible defender. At SF or PF, he’s a horrible defender.

Easily one of the worst defensive teams without LeBron.. Aside from West and Moon.

I don’t consider Varejao a defender, he’s a flopper.

[McWinningParticipant]

Seriously the offense they run is completely through Lebron hes not given a real chance, and this isnt playoffs, they would lose in the first round.

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

They don’t even run an offense.. It’s just, give it to LeBron and play off him. lol

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

That’s the problem. That’s why Cleveland’s offense is so stagnant. LeBron is as creative offensively as Mike Brown is. We just don’t see it since he’s such a freak athlete.

That’s why I keep saying LeBron needs to improve his game and stop being so ball dominant/dependent on isolations. He needs to work on moving without the ball, catching and shooting, one and two dribble pull ups, his post/in between game, etc. I think this would make him easier to play with and surround with quality players.

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

What makes you think

Fisher
Shannon Brown?
Artest
Gasol
Bynum

Odom
and who else?? DJ MBenga? Farmar? Luke Walton? Vujajic? Morrison?

This team has good depth in the front court with Gasol, Bynum, and Odom. But that’s about it. We all know Gasol can’t carry a team by himself… I don’t think Bynum can take on too much more of a scoring role.. And there is no bench. Don’t underestimate how helpful a deep bench is.

This team would be a bottom-seeded playoff team.

No too much different than the Cavs.

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

Fisher
Artest
Odom
Gasol
Bynum

That’s a line-up that would probably be the biggest team in the league and Gasol is a legit 1st option on any team. Artest has a couple of 20ppg seasons under his belt. Odom can easily be a 16-10-6 guy. Bynum will someday be the franchise player of this laker team, 4-6 years from now.

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

Artest can’t guard SG’s anymore… Odom at SF gives you limited range.. There is ZERO bench involved in that team other than Shannon Brown– None of those guys are young enough or healthy enough to take on really big minutes( as in almost the whole game)..

Artest is an ineffecient scorer–he shouldn’t score over 20 and he probably would struggle to at this point in his career. Bynum SOMEDAY will be a franchise player in 4-6 years.. someday is the key term their…

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

And you didn’t say anything about Gasol.. He’s a solid 1st option and that team is a playoff team. Even in the west. of course they would be 6-8 but stilla playoff team.

[MrAnalyst]

Williams/Gibson/Telfair
Parker/West
Jamison/Moon
Varejao/Hickson
Shaq/Illguaskas

That is not a playoff team.
That team would go about 28-54. They would be no better than the Wizards this year when they had Jamison. Hell, that lineup is honestly one of the worst in the league how can you guys think that is a playoff team? Jamison isn’t going to get anymore than 18 and 8. Williams might score a little more without LeBron, but it would only be because he took way way more shots and his field goal percentage would be awful. Parker at the 2? Not near a solid starting 2. Varejao is a good bench/energy guy ala Robin Lopez, not a starting 4. But with him and Hickson, that would not be a bad power forward rotation. Than at center, they are awful. Shaq gets 20 minutes a game, are you gonna throw in a washed up Illgauskas for 28? Get real people, this team would be lucky to win 25-30 games.

[MrAnalyst]

“Mo was a 17ppg guy on a team that went 28-54”
If LeBron left, I bet that would be exactly what he would be again. 17ppg but the Cavs go 28-54. Hahaha soooo true.

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

hahaha
MrAnalyst

i agree

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

When Pau was the #1 option his team won 26 games.

For the Cavs:

West and Parker can both score 12-13 PPG
Mo Williams can score 17-18 PPG
Jamison can score 20 PPG

It mostly depends on how good u think Hickson can be.. As a starting Center, in 25 MPG he averaged 11 and 7… If he was the full-time starter you’d have to expect he’d average about 35 MPG which would be about 14-15 PPG and 9-10 RPG..

With Shaq coming in playing 15-20 minutes a night, big Z coming in for about 10-15 and Varejao getting PT(to the tune of about 9 points, 8 rebounds) this team has some depth you also have to look at Jomario Moon, Boobie Gibson, and Leon Powe

This teams starting line-up is worse than the Lakers without Kobe— But this team is much deeper.

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

shaq is not coming back.. and big z plays like 8 mpg, what makes you think he’s going to play 15 when he’s another year older?

[MrAnalyst]

I think the Lakers would still be able to win 45-50 games without Kobe. Gasol is a lot better than on the Grizzlies and he didn’t have Bynum (NBA’s biggest center that still has agility and athleticism), Odom (NBA’s most versatile PF), and Artest (NBA’s best perimeter defender, look how he played Durant). This team would still be good and win 45-50 as opposed to the Cavs 25-30 without LeBron.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

@MrAnalyst

Oh you’re crazy as hell if you think the Lakers would be able to win 50 games without Kobe. You’re basically saying that having Kobe this season was only worth seven more wins since the Lakers went 57-25.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

BUT you’re saying LeBron was worth an extra 31 victories (Cleveland went 61-21 this season)? LOL… Kobe worth 7 victories, while LeBron is worth 31??? You must be a Cavs fan because that’s just an ignorant statement.

[MrAnalyst]

I am not a fan of either team. It’s clear as day that the Lakers could have won more than 57. They were waiting for the playoffs to play their best basketball. You can’t just make up false statistics like I am saying Kobe is worth 7 games and LeBron 31. It is a different situation. I mean are you saying since the Lakers won less games than the Cavs, the Cavs they are that many games better? Clearly the Lakers are better, reguardless of the regular season record. I definitely think LeBron is worth more games, maybe ten more than Kobe, but it is clearly a different situation. The Lakers have a good lineup and still would without Kobe. The Cavs have a bunch of role players, and without LeBron they would have no leader, or go to guy. Jamison is not a go to guy. They may have a decent bench still, but you need atleast one go to guy. Gasol is better than Jamison. Bynum and Odom might even be better. And Artest, who would be the Lakers 4th best option, is a better player than Mo Williams. It is just a different situation, but yes LeBron is definitely worth more to his team than Kobe. If LeBron leaves, Cleveland better start hoping for good luck with the lottery balls.

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

What does this have to do with next year? We’re talking about this past season how they would’ve done without LeBron who knows what the team will look like next year so you can’t even compare it

And btw Big Z averaged 20 MPG a this year

[MrAnalyst]

It is ignorant to put words into people’s mouth like you did, not to state your opinion like I did.

[MrAnalyst]

It is ignorant to put words into people’s mouth like you did, not to state your opinion like I did.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

@MrAnalyst

I’m just going off of what you said:

– “I think the Lakers would still be able to win 45-50 games without Kobe.”

– “Cavs 25-30 without LeBron.”

The Lakers went 57-25 this year, while the Cavs went 61-21. Do the math. Judging by the highest number, that means you’re saying that Kobe was only worth seven extra victories this year, while LeBron was worth an extra 31. LeBron is NOT 24 victories better than Kobe.

What this boils down to is that the Cavs are definitely better than a 30 win team in the Eastern Conference without LeBron.

[MrAnalyst]

Okay than you are saying that the Cavs are better than the Lakers this year. Gotcha.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Judging by what? Record or opinion? Because based on record… The Cavs went 61-21 compared to the Lakers 57-25. They also beat the Lakers both times this year and earned homecourt advantage throughout the playoffs. Those are facts.

[MrAnalyst]

Like I said, it is a different situation. If Kove was on the Cavs this year, I can see them winning 50 games, without him, 25. So that makes Kobe worth 25 games in that situation. Like I said, it is a different situation. A great player impacts a bad team more than he does a good team. Clearly the Lakers are worth more than 57 games and clearly the Cavs are worth less than 61. You can not just base all your arguments off of statistics all the time. Throw LeBron on the Nets next year, I bet they win 45 games, like 30 some more than this year. Throw him on the Mavs, they probably win 65 at the max, which is like 10 more games. It is a different situation and like I said, a great player alters the number of wins on a bad team, way more than a good team. For instance, if you go to a 62 win team, you can only change the team by 20 games, and clearly no one will go undefeated ever. If you go to a 12 win team, you can change it by 70. It is not comparable.

[MrAnalyst]

Okay well if you want to go by statistics all the time than, yes you are right, the cavs are better than the lakers, even though they are watching the playoffs and the lakers are playing in them right? Clearly the lakers were holding it in for the playoffs.

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

After he came back, he had 8mpg.

that’s after a month vacation.. now imagine how bad he’ll be after like 2-3months vacation

[SpencerIsHawesome2Participant]

That’s not even true.

When he came back he averaged OVER 20 MPG for the last 11 games in the regular season.

In the playoffs his minutes were reduced but that was not because he couldn’t do it. It’s because A) Mike Brown is an idiot B) Brown was trying to play match-ups

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

PG – Mo Williams/Daniel Gibson/Sebastian Telfair
SG – Anthony Parker/Delonte West
SF – Antawn Jamison/Jamario Moon
PF – JJ Hickson/Anderson Varejao/Leon Powe
C – Shaquille O’Neal/Zydrunas Illgauskas

If you don’t think that team could at least compete for an 8th playoff seed in the East, you’re just crazy. That team is deep. They could get through the regular season with a .500 record.

[MrAnalyst]

The Raptors (9th seed) would have no problem winning more games than that team.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

My team, the Indiana Pacers won 32 games. That Cleveland team is AT LEAST 8-10 games better than the Pacers.

Toronto only won 40 games this year. I think Cleveland minus LeBron James could win 40-42 games. The difference between Cleveland and Toronto is defense. Cleveland would still be a good defensive team without LeBron. Losing LeBron would hurt, but it’s not like they’d all of the sudden start giving up 106 points like Toronto did this season.

Like I said… You can win 41 games and make the playoffs in the East. Cleveland minus LeBron would be in competition for an 8th seed.

[adamsdankParticipant]

Either way you look at it Cleveland without Lebron is a bad team. This East is not a very strong conference. There are three top tier teams right now: Orlando, Boston and Cleveland. The other 12 teams in the East are bad. None of them, the way their rosters are right now, can even dream of competing for a title in the next five years. So you are right ButlerBulldogs thery could slip into that 8th seed. You know what that makes them?? Bad at basketball.

[Tobe BryantParticipant]

And this is why the Cavs are sitting at home today!!!! One player being worth EVERYTHING to a TEAM is a recipe for disaster. That means that there aren’t anymore quality players who can carry te load if the STAR is injured or isn’t there. The Lakers, Suns, Magic, and Celtics all succeed because they don’t need their STAR to go crazy for points every night! They have good enough compliments to the star that can step off and beat you while you focus on the primary objective.

[MrAnalyst]

That’s why the Lakers would go for about 45 without Kobe and the Cavs about 30 without LeBron.

[KevinDurantRocksParticipant]

lost vince carter and struggled as much as they did losing lebron james would be alot worse

[kanyedabestParticipant]

its funny i just got in a argument with my friend about this and i was saying really when u compare rosters of suns, lakers, magic, celtics… even hawks, the cavs roster is dog shiit. I HATE LEchoke but his team wasnt the greatest. You know what they say MO ( williams) MONEY, MO PROBLEMS

[knicksfan7Participant]

I agree with butlerbulldogs about lebron learning how to play w/o the ball and being less dependent on iso’s. The expectations on Lebron are ridiculous, I wasn’t born until MJ’s 7th season, but I can’t imagine MJ had anywhere near the pressure and expectations Lebron had from the day he first stepped on to the court. Personally, Lebron needs to figure out what position he should play, and master it. I don’t care if it’s PG or SF, he needs a position to stick to, learn it, and then be great at it. If he wants to be a big PG like Magic, then let him. I think what Lebron needs is if he continues to be a ball dominant player is the following kind of starting 5.

Him at the PG
An undersized combo guard who is a shooter (stephen curry type)
A versatile small forward who can guard shooting guards
A good defensive 4 with strong low post moves
A legit 7′ at the center position with good basketball playing abilities.

This would allow the PF and C to guard PF’s and C’s. The SF would guard the opposing team’s SG, the SG would guard the opposing team’s PG, and Lebron would defend the opposing team’s SF. This would allow for balance on both ends of the court. Cleveland had no balance on the court, the defense was good because Mike Brown is a defensive minded guy. I do believe if Mike Brown were to coach elsewhere or a Lebron-less Cavs he would lead them to the playoffs, but nothing more. Lebron seriously needs Phil Jackson a guy that would demand a lot out of him, and make him be better than ever. He would not put up with lebron’s antics.

[JNixonParticipant]

Cleveland would compete for the 8th seed. But they would likely be on the outisde looking in. Their roster without Lebron is a pretty weak roster.

Varejao without Lebron isn’t anywhere near a starting C.

J.J. Hickson is nowhere near a 16 and 8 player. He’s not very talented offensively at all, he just plays with energy. He’s maybe a 11 or 12 ppg player at absolute best. He would rebound and defend decent though. But not anything special.

Mo Williams is too inefficient to function as a 1st option or a 2nd option with someone like Antwaan Jamison. He’s also not a true PG.

Anthony Parker is nowhere near a double digit scorer as of now. He’s basically a spot-up shooter and a good defender against big and physical wings.

Any team with Antwaan Jamison as it’s 1st option is not going to be a playoff team. It also hurts that Jamison is a bad defender.

I agree with Mr. Analyst, D3Wadeisbetter and everyone who says the Cavs would be a bad team without Lebron. Nothing about that team seems successful lol.

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

knicksfan7
Who’s the good defensive 4? Jamison? Did you even watch KG this series?
Mo Williams is NOT stephen curry type, curry actually passes the ball and drives it in and plays defense.
A legit 7footer? Who 40yr old ilgauskas? shaq isn’t going back to CLE get it through your head

[knicksfan7Participant]

D3Wade, I am saying that is what Lebron needs in order to succeed, never did I say it was Jamison because Jamison got worked by KG. KG looked like KG of old.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

The Milwaukee Bucks
Record 46-36

Brandon Jennings/Luke Ridnour/Royal Ivey
John Salmons/Jerry Stackhouse/Charlie Bell
Carlos Delfino/Luc Richard Mbah A Moute
Ersan Illyasova
Andrew Bogut/Kurt Thomas/Dan Gadzuric/Primoz Brezec

vs

The Cleveland Cavs minus LeBron

Mo Williams/Daniel Gibson/Sebastian Telfair
Anthony Parker/Delonte West
Antawn Jamison/Jamario Moon
JJ Hickson/Anderson Varejao/Leon Powe
Shaquille O’Neal/Zydrunas Illgauskas

If that Bucks team could make the playoffs, I don’t see why this Cavs team couldn’t.

[JNixonParticipant]

The Bucks have defenders who aren’t true liabilities offensively, a true PG, and an All-NBA Center. Also, they have players that can play winning basketball because they know their role. They also are more efficient than the players on Cleveland for the most part.

Mo Williams and Antwaan Jamison have both proven that they can’t be productive and win at the same time if they are 1st or 2nd options. Golden State was garbage back when Jamison was their 1st option, and Milwaukee was garbage when Mo Williams was their 2nd option.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

The Bucks have solid defenders, but other than Luc Richard Mbah A Moute… Who’s the “true” defender on their team? And Mbah A Moute is somewhat of an offensive liability.

Jennings is a true point guard, but he shot 37% and only averaged 5.7 assists this season. Mo isn’t a true point guard, but he had better shooting percentages accross the board and averaged close to the same amount of assists (while not being the team’s primary ball handler).

I disagree with what you said about Jamison. He has proven that he can be the 2nd option and win at the same time. The Wizards made the playoffs four consecutive years with Jamison as their 2nd option. I could say the same thing about John Salmons. The Kings were terrible while he was the 1st/2nd option.

Those Bucks teams weren’t good with Mo Williams. Andrew Bogut wasn’t the player that he is now. He struggled on and off with injuries and inconsistency. Mo was a good player with the Bucks and his numbers are basically the same now as they were then.

[JNixonParticipant]

I said Antwaan Jamison played for a garbage Golden State team as a 1st option. The 2nd option statement was about Mo Williams, who was never apart of a successful team as a 2nd option for the Bucks.

John Salmons, Ilyasova, Delfino, Bogut, and Mbah a Moute are all above average defensive players. Mbah a Moute is the only one who didn’t average double figures if I’m not mistaken. Mbah a Moute was the only bad offensive player.

John Salmons was apart of a successful Bulls team as a 1st/2nd option though, and he was the 1st option for the Bucks this season, so his success on the Kings was probably related to a lack of talent on that team, not because he wasn’t a winning player. You bringing up his playing for the Kings is now rendered irrelevant.

Jennings shared duties with Ridnour as well. That accounted for a good deal of his assist total being lower. Ridnour and Jennings is better than Williams and West/Gibson/Telfair. The Bucks had true PG’s, and the Cavs had no true PG’s besides Telfair, who rarely sees action. The Bucks have better PG play.

The point is, the Bucks are a better team than a Lebron-less Cavs. Bogut wasn’t the player he is now, but he is an All-NBA player currently, and a lot of that can be attributed to Jennings and even Ridnour. Mo Williams isn’t the playmaker Ridnour or Jennings is and has never really been.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

You sound kind of hypocritical. You said that me bringing up Salmons’ playing days with the Kings is now rendered irrellevant, but you’re bringing up Jamison and Mo’s playing days with the Warriors and Bucks. How does that make any kind of sense? And Salmons was NOT the first option on the Bulls. Ben Gordon was.

You also sound hypocritical saying that Salmons’ limited success on the Kings was due to a lack of talent, while not giving that same treatment to Jamison who played on a young and inexperienced Warriors squad. Those teams weren’t bad because of Jamison.

I also don’t agree with you about Mo. He was the 2nd option for Miwaukee in only two of the four years he played for them. In 2006-2007 both Michael Redd and Andrew Bogut struggled with injuries. In 2007-2008, the team just wasn’t good.

I just disagree with you. I’m done with it though.

[JNixonParticipant]

Salmons time with Sacto was irrelevant because he played the same role, actually he was a 1st/2nd option with both Milwaukee and Chicago and both of those teams made the playoffs. That was directed to you saying that you could bring up Salmons not being a good 2nd option because he played for the Kings. He had the same role, probably an even bigger role actually, on a winning team, so therefore your point about him not being a 2nd option on a winning team is irrelevant.

Mo Williams and Antwaan Jamison (especially), aren’t getting younger or improving, so the Cavs wouldn’t be a winning team if those 2 are your best players. Jamison has carried a selfish rep for his whole career, and was apart of why the Warriors weren’t good. He’s not supposed to be the best player on a team, if that team wants to be a contender. A truly good 1st option can make a team competitive at least, even with a lack of talent. Mo Williams has also never been a winning player when he’s a featured weapon. And he wouldn’t have been even if Redd and Bogut were healthy.

[stanford hoops]

i said it before and ill say it again. while all you bandwagon jumpers kept trying to tell me the cavs are the best team because of what they did in the regular season and because they beat the laker sint he regular season, they were gonna win the title while i continued to say they would be lucky to get past the magic and they arent better then the celtics come playoff time. alot of people laughed and said boston was finished and rondo is ov errated and blah blah while i continued to say the playoffs are a different animal. I guess for now on some of ya’ll will understand the regular season is alot different then the playoffs for many different reasonsi and that the lakers are built more for the playoffs.

I like lebron but ive been saying this every year that his team just isnt good enough. mo williams can score in the regular season but playoffs seem to bring his game down. plus hes a scoring pg and doesnt make players better. antwan can score but his defense sucks. shaq is what 50 now? parker,west,moon. the lebron one on 5 works in the regular season but isnt quite the same in the playoffs when teams adjust every game.

now as far as the lakers without kobe. We still would be a playoff team and yes artest can check SG although i wouldnt want him doing it all season i would be comfortable with him doing it in the playoffs

SPENCER odom can put up 15 plus without kobe
artest 15
gasol 20 plus
bynum 15 plus
also you do know Gasol lead the grizz to the playoffs 3 different times SPENCERHAWES

[llperez]

it goes both ways. On one side, no the cavs are not that great. Lots of teams would be better then the cavs if they had lebron. On the other side, if lebron is truly at kobe/jordan status, then he defenitely had enough talent around him to compete for a title. So no, the cavs are not that great a team. but dont think for one second that excludes lebron and act like he did everything an MVP is suposed to do.

[stanford hoops]

my thing is what more do people want lebron to do?..he had a very nice triple double the other night. his team just isnt as good as the other teams. its that simple. jordan couldnt lead the bulls to a title till he was 27. kobe couldnt before getting gasol. no player can do it if there team just isnt better then the other teams. cleveland isnt as good as orlando,lakers,bosotn just like the bulls werent as good as the celtics and pistons for a minute and how the lakers werent better then phx or the spurs. if lebron scored 35 his team still wasnt gonna beat bosotn this year or orlando last year because his team just isnt as good as those teams

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

@stanford hoops

I was definitely one of those people who said Rajon Rondo wasn’t as great as some people thought. I mean, I thought he was a top ten point guard… Just not a top five point guard. Can you blame me though? I mean, he’s playing with three first ballot Hall of Famers. I had to see more from him. He proved me wrong though. He’s the truth. The best player and MVP of the Celtics.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

That wasn’t a winning triple double though Quincey. He also had nine turnovers and didn’t shoot well from the field. He was passive, scared to take a jumpshot in the first half and was committing bad turnovers.

He also didn’t show any fire or leadership. He gave up. He deserves criticism for that.

LeBron’s supporting cast isn’t as good as Orlando’s, Boston’s or LA’s, BUT… They were good enough for him to at least get them to the Finals. I mean, they had everything he needed.

[llperez]

stanford hoops, i agree in that i never had the cavs advancing and it is not all on lebron. But dont act like he did everything he could. He did everything he could if he was a really good player. Not if he is the best player on the planet and in jordan’s company. Thats why he is being ridiculed. Is it fair? maybe not. But thats what comes with the territory of being crowned the best.

[stanford hoops]

i dont see how people could see that from last year when he was killing int he playoffs or by watching and see how well he sets up players. i seen this and he’s not even one of my favorite players. people just get blinded by the flash or hype of other point guards instead of really watching the game and the players skills. i used to do that when i was younger when watching stockton and malone untill i really started to watch there game. most people dont REALLY watch.

[stanford hoops]

so what more do you think he should have done then?..get 35 instead of 27..20 rebounds instead of 19? 15 ast instead of 12?…you can only do so much when you arent a real good shooter and the other team is cutting off the lanes. as well as youre second option only putting up 13ppg shooting horrible and youre 3rd option stinking it up while getting draged up and down the court by rondo. and while youre playing great defense on paul p who is no slouch hisself….i mean really what more can he do?..a big triple double isnt enough..he needs a quadruple double?… like i said before jordan was the best player before and he couldnt get the bulls to the title either because one man cant do it alone. his teammates werent good enough either

[JNixonParticipant]

Rondo is unbelievably good at everything. Except shooting. And even his shot is not as bad as most make it out to be. I’ve always been a Rondo fan, and I thought he was the best PG in the East. I still do. He’s just not quite the scorer Rose is, but he’s not far off either. He’s just so unselfish he doesn’t (have to) look for his shot as much as Rose does.

[llperez]

you are too consumed with stats. Lebron is the absolute king if we go by stats, i agree. but there is more to winning then stats. If you watched games 5 and 6 and honestly thought he looked like an mvp trying to lead his team, then i dont know what to tell you. And it had nothing to do with stats.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

They don’t call him “Video Game James” for no reason. He’s the King of putting up great stats, but we all know stats don’t tell the whole story.

[stanford hoops]

in game 5..no..not at all..in game 6 yes.. he was forcing the action and trying to lead his team but with the teammates he had as well as not being a real threat with his jumper and with the defenses collapsing on him what more could he do?…people say he should have done more yet no one can say what more he could do. he took more shoots. he passed out of double teams and tried to go through double teams. he forced the issue and was patient. not even the greatest players can do it all the time. I remember watching jordan and seeing how he hurt his team int he playoffs taking too many shoots and forcing the issue when they lost to boston. he played no worst then lebron did in his last game but like james he was limited by teammates and the fact that his jumper wasnt very dependable then. Even my favorite player kobe back when we lost to phx. except his was worst because he just literally gave up in game 7 of that series

[stanford hoops]

just funny how people are killing him for things he cant control. and yeah jordan used to be just mr stats guy as well and couldnt lead his team far either. people seem to forget jordan wasnt always the champion. he used to be in the same boat except he was selfish. he also didnt have the teammates to win just like lebron and losing to better teams. now im not saying lebron is jordan but i am saying all this bandwagon jumping as far as putting all the blame on him makes no sense. especially since hes still only 25?? jordan couldnt do it at 25 either

[llperez]

stanfordhoops, i agree in the first quarter of game 6 he looked possesed and did everything he could the only knock was that he had no faith in his jumper. He litteraly ran away from open jumpers. As the game went on, he seemed to lose confidence as his team went south. But the whole time I was sitting there thinking “okay, they are within single digits, he is gonna say give me the ball and get out of my way. We both know we have seen kobe in that spot countless times. But it never came with lebron. I specifically remember him passing to verajao 15 feet from the rim and mean muggin him when he turned it over. He passed to guys who were not in position to make plays.

Was lebron great? yes. Was he the best in the league and did he do everything he could? no.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

That was only Jordan’s 2nd season in the leauge when they played against Boston in the playoffs. And that Jordan team really wasn’t any good. They were the 8th seeded team. This is LeBron’s 7th season and he was on a Cavs team that won 61 games… 66 games last season.

[llperez]

and one reason i give lebron crap is because i saw kobe absolutely dominate the league and he got nothing but sh.it for it because he didnt win. He put up 35.5ppg and made first team defense and still finished 4th in mvp voting behind dirk and didnt even make top 5 mvp voting on a lot of guys lists. So no, as a fan, im not gonna feel sorry for lebron taking criticism when his team doesnt win.

[stanford hoops]

thats just one example..i can name a couple of others. jordan was also 27 in his 7th season and lebron is 25. and came in the leauge out of hs. i dont think anyone expected him to lead them to a title in his first 2 years. and lebron has lead the team to the title game before his 7th season correct? and what does winning all those games mean?…its regular season not the playoffs…other teams sit players, players dont play through certain injuries nor play real hard all the time in the regular season. not to mention teams adjust alot better when they are playing against the same team in a series. also whos the hoarce grant or scottie pippen on lebrons team in his 7th season?..mo williams?….antwan jamison?..come on now the bulls then and the cavs now arent even close to comparable. too many people are getting on lebron for one real reason and thats because some people and the media are calling him the king and MVP

also with kobe in those spots its easier because he doesnt need to get in the lane all the time to do damage. he can hit the three or midrange consistantly….also you name 2 games that you say lebron hasnt stepped up..kobe has 2 and more games where you can say the same thing(before gasol got there) and just like i used to tell people then, what do you expect for him to do with smush parker and lamar odom as his 2 side kicks. people jumped all over kobe as well even though he couldnt do it by himself

[llperez]

And let me get this hater comment out there. When im a dad and i tell my kid to watch old NBA players, im gonna point out kobe’s post moves, jordan’s foot work, nash’s off hand, birds toughness. What am i gonna say about lebron? be bigger and jump higher?

I also want to point out that lebron is still great and one day, possibly very soon, he will have the critics shutting up. it is very easy to take shots right now. He deserved his mvp awards and has more coming. But in the meantime, i dont like seeing him being crowned with sh.it

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

I just think LeBron is a little overrated.

– Inconsistent jumpshot
– Relies too much on the three-point shot, which is Fool’s Gold
– No post game and below average post footwork
– No go-to move
– No mid-range or in between game
– Doesn’t move well without the ball in his hands
– He doesn’t catch and shoot well
– Not confident enough with the one or two dribble pull up

He needs the ball in his hands too much, which stagnates the offense. The ball stops moving from side to side and it just makes the team’s offense predictable. LeBron may get his assists, but they’re not always the good ones.

[stanford hoops]

i think he’s overrated when people talk about the most skilled. as far as player i dont. shaq could be put in the same catagory in his prime as well because he couldnt shoot. horrible pick and role defense, horrible foul shooting, below average foot work etc. but he still dominated. nothing lebron does is a problem untill his team loses. if he’s on a better team and winning with these same abilities no one is complaining like when jordan started winning. the other day i watched some tapes with one of my family members about how all these fans and nba people talked about how jordan was overrated because all he could do is score and make highlight plays but couldnt lead his team to a title even thugh they didnt take into account he didnt have a real good team and the teams at the time( boston,det) just had a better team from top to bottom. at the time jordan didnt have post moves or a consistant midrange and no deep ball. he was a ball stopper and didnt do alot when he didnt have the ball in his hands. people just tend to forget that lebron is 25. just entering his prime. hes done so much at such a young age that expectations are alot higher then what they should be because he’s so good and he gets better every year. i still have him below wade,melo,kobe as far as skilled scorers though because just like shaq did , he gets most of his because of his physical abilities

[DanEboyParticipant]

Stanfordhoops….nice to see you back and battling again. I think the Celtic D frustrated him to the point where he just tried to force the action and ended up making bad plays. He let them get inside of his head and took him out of his game.

He should remember that game and learn from it.

[stanford hoops]

i agree with you 100 percent llperez as far as telling the kids what to watch and how he shouldnt be crowned by some of the fans and media like he has been. my point is that even though he deserves some of the blame because the star player always gets the blame he doesnt deserve most of it because one player cant do it all. no one is getting on his teammates mo and antwan who played much worst againsty boston then they did during the regular season. they didnt step up there games at all, instead there games got worst. so if lebron is playing as well or better during the series while his teammates are playing much worst then they play during the regular season then what do you think is gonna happen when they play a good team with very good players who play great team basketball and all or most of them are stepping up there games more in the series then what they do in the regular season?

[llperez]

i agree about jamison for sure. He looked like a straight scrub in game 6. 2-10 shooting and no d on KG. That dude should be more then a role player, he needs to get taken to task for his play.

[stanford hoops]

with all that said i still have kobe as the bets in the leauge although i agree lebron deserved the mvp

I also said this 3 years ago on here and still agree with it..” as talented as lebron is i just dont see that it thing in him like i see in jordan and kobe. that “i have my foot on youre neck but now im gonna put more pressure on it till youre neck breaks”….

i Actually see that in wade though and i know durant is young and i can be wrong but i dont see it in him either

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Shaq is a little different because he didn’t have the ball in his hands so much. He didn’t have the ball for majority of the shot clock.

I’ve come to question whether or not LeBron actually makes his teammates better. I mean, I know he’s a great teammate and loves to pass first, but I’m talking about his style of play. He’s too ball dominant. The ball just stops moving and the offense goes stagnant. That style of play may get you through the regular season, but not the playoffs.

LeBron is only 25, but this is his 7th season and he still doesn’t have a go-to move. He still doesn’t have very good footwork in the post or a good post game. Did you watch him trying to post up Tony Allen? He has no in between game. No mid-range game.

LeBron is the greatest freak athlete in the history of sports and has amazing court vision, but ugh about the rest of his game.

[DanEboyParticipant]

Wade is the second best finisher in the game. If Kobe wins another title this year, I think this is going to be that turning point for LeBron. If the fact that Kobe keeps winning titles and how his team got embarrassed by the Celtics doesn’t ignite that fire, nothing will.

One thing for sure, I think he needs a change of scenery.

[stanford hoops]

lol..ive been argueing with people on here about that.. bron doesnt have a real good post game. but i think if you give lebron kobes teammates or howards or paul p and he has a ring or 2 already. now if he gets on a very good team like those and still doesnt get a ring then its awhole different ball game

i recall jordan not having a set go to move at 25. he had some moves he did but not a very strong go to move. then again he didnt have to because he could score without it at ease because of that will of his….this is a reason i say kobe isnt on his level yet

to the older people who remember the bulls and jordan. after he won that first title every year did you really doubt that the bulls would win it? ( ill accept if you doubted just a lil against the knicks) because i didnt. i had zero doubt they win and they would dominate and jordan would dominate

now im a laker fan i like kobe and the lakers and always have them favored but i dont have that same feeling with them as the bulls or kobe as i did with jordan. there is more doubt with the lakers and kobe

[llperez]

well, thankfully the NBA will let me watch my lakers again on monday after a week of waiting. Suns are in for a rude awakening. I just want to give a shout out to John Hollinger. He said the thunder would push the lakers to 7 and might win. he then said the jazz would win the series, but later changed his mind becasue apparently okur made the differnce in the series. now he is picking the suns in 6. I hate that guy. And celtics win tomorrow although the magic will win the series.

[stanford hoops]

yeah i think lebron needs to go to a new team with better players around him. i dont think its a turning point just yet because of how young he is. he still has plenty of time. this is a reason i dont jump on wade ( not the age thing) because his team just isnt that good. i think melo deserves more blame then those 2 because he clearly has more talent around him

[stanford hoops]

not just John..there were many people on here doubting our lakers. they became okc fans over night and thought we would lose to them and then there were the utah fans and some bandwagon guys….but we can take it back further during the regular season when a bunch of people had dallas taking us out and/or denver. i wonder where all those people are at now?..i remember talks of that young rookie for dallas dropping buckets on us in the playoffs as well.

[DanEboyParticipant]

The only time I doubted the Bulls and Jordan was that last series against Utah. I don’t think the Bulls would have won the following year. People seem to forget that after MJ hit that shot against Russell, Stockton had a chance to win it with a 3. It clanked off the rim.

[stanford hoops]

i had no doubt then either. no matter how close the games were. jordan would have found a way to win. the only way they lose after that year was injuries or father time

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

I never had any doubt in Jordan. I always thought he’d find a way to win… That he’d never let the Bulls lose.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

I’ve never felt that way about LeBron. I feel it with Kobe, but definitely not on the level I felt it with MJ.

It makes me appreciate Jordan even more. Even when the Pacers took the Bulls to seven games and were leading by double figures in game seven… I KNEW Jordan wasn’t going to let his team lose.

[DanEboyParticipant]

And to think he didn’t need a dominant big man or a point guard. They surrounded him with the perfect supporting cast.

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