[qDizzle32Participant]

In recent years, more of the elite foreign prospects from overseas have been moving to the states to play prep school ball or are coming directly to colleges. Last year if Alex Len would have stayed in Europe, he most likely wouldn’t have been a Top 5 pick. Joel Embiid’s stock looks pretty good for next year, if he would have went pro in Spain rather than coming to the states, he wouldn’t be known as much that way. Canadians too but the difference for them is that the Top Canadian prospects have been coming to the states for years, they’ve just had more success recently with players such as Andrew Wiggins, Anthony Bennett and Tristan Thompson. Georgios Papagiannis and Ben Simmons already have a lot of hype as High School Juniors. I find the new trend being a good thing because its making college basketball more fun to watch and it lets the NBA teams know more about the top prospects. Imagine how much more exciting college basketball would be to watch if Jonas Valanciunas, Dario Saric, Giannis Antekoumpo, Mario Hezonja and Dennis Schroeder came to the states and picked colleges. Hopefully in the near future, more of the top foreign prospects will continue to come here.

[HitsterParticipant]

If an international player has ambitions of making the NBA at the earliest opportunity then I can understand them looking to do a year in college as it gives them a much higher profile and allows them to be watched more closely. However playing in the NCAA will mean match ups against likely draft rivals and this can send a player’s draft stock either way. So being a lesser known European quantity can work both ways in the draft. Teams will have monitored these players and whilst they may be hesitant to take a plunge on this type of player higher up the draft, it only needs one GM to like him and see something in him for him to get drafted.

Players from other countries coming to the US to play HS ball is another matter and would probably be done by players who have the NBA as their main goal and with Europe as a second option.

[HitsterParticipant]

If an international player has ambitions of making the NBA at the earliest opportunity then I can understand them looking to do a year in college as it gives them a much higher profile and allows them to be watched more closely. However playing in the NCAA will mean match ups against likely draft rivals and this can send a player’s draft stock either way. So being a lesser known European quantity can work both ways in the draft. Teams will have monitored these players and whilst they may be hesitant to take a plunge on this type of player higher up the draft, it only needs one GM to like him and see something in him for him to get drafted.

Players from other countries coming to the US to play HS ball is another matter and would probably be done by players who have the NBA as their main goal and with Europe as a second option.

[SiggyParticipant]

Being trained as pros, playing and practicing vs grown men or playing inferior America HS ball and (maybe) participating in AAU ball? I think they’d be better off continuing their development overseas if they’re already in a pro junior/cadet system as teens. If they want to come over for college, I don’t have a problem with that, but already being in a pro system there could be amateurism concerns (like Kanter.)

Scouts travel everywhere and have their ear to the streets all over the globe. If a player is intriguing enough, they will find them.

I don’t understand Papagiannis’ decision at all. He was already on scouts’ radars. Why willingly go play vs inferior competition?

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Plus, Papagiannis is talented. However, he is also a kid. Plus, the US is glamorous. Lets face it, I used to believe European kids played basketball all day and did not go to school. Well, they do, they also are much more open about having "agents" and people around them at a younger age. When you look at it from a basketball stand point, I can understand your position of "not understanding his decision at all" (paraphrasing, your almost exact words).

Though, Sig, if you look a little deeper, think you do get it. I am not sure how you are built, though I do know you are a smart guy and know there are indeed a number of ways to get into the league. Yes, talent will be found. Still, is that always a guarantee of a high draft choice? Plus, was it not your dream to play at the NCAA level? Maybe it was Papagiannis’. Plus, he gets to be a kid, go to school, maybe have a bit of a social life before becoming part of the machine.

One thing you do not want to happen is have a kid start to look as basketball as being more work than fun at a young age. I do not know Papagiannis’ mental state, from everything I hear he seems pretty driven. Still, you get guys like Darko Milicic and Niko Tskitishvili, those were guys who were part of the machine and one has to wonder if that did something to burn out their desire? Just a thought.

Honestly, it is a guilty pleasure of mine to see guys come to the States and go up against these guys domestically. I personally believe Dario Saric was a top 5 level recruit in 2012 and would have loved to see what he did in college. Think Enes Kanter not getting a chance was a crying shame, plus while sitting out certainly did not provide the same amount of preparation that playing pro would have, he is a case that looks to not be a complete failure in the least. I see the benefit of staying and going up against grown men, yet I also believe that their are benefits to coming over and playing domestically.

Scouts will find you if you’re talented, but if they do not have to look as hard, it does not necessarily hurt. People did not get to scout Giannis Antetokoumpo as closely as they could have. If he had played domestically, maybe he goes even higher than 15? Certainly looks like he should have. Know you were high on him, just also know you were one of the first to point out the Greek All-Star Game MVP was Brent "Air Georgia" Petway. Also know your concern over the undisciplined play in the AAU, yet again, they are kids. Plus, you have camps where you can be challenged, learn new things. Not to mention, doubt this stops Papagiannis’ involvement with the Greek International team in the summer. I have to say, think you saying you do not understand his decision at all comes purely from a basketball standpoint, when life before pro basketball is rarely JUST that.

[King CaluchaParticipant]

Giannis Antetokoumpo may be the only case in which level of competition could have been a concern, but it’s not like he wasn’t scouted: He was… heavily. Several teams sent scouts too see this guy play, so they pretty much knew what they were getting.

“Plus, was it not your dream to play at the NCAA level? Maybe it was Papagiannis”
This is the only point I agree with. It only makes sense if playing college basketball is a dream for the kids. In most cases, this young players would be better off staying in a pro league.

[King CaluchaParticipant]

Giannis Antetokoumpo may be the only case in which level of competition could have been a concern, but it’s not like he wasn’t scouted: He was… heavily. Several teams sent scouts too see this guy play, so they pretty much knew what they were getting.

“Plus, was it not your dream to play at the NCAA level? Maybe it was Papagiannis”
This is the only point I agree with. It only makes sense if playing college basketball is a dream for the kids. In most cases, this young players would be better off staying in a pro league.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Plus, Papagiannis is talented. However, he is also a kid. Plus, the US is glamorous. Lets face it, I used to believe European kids played basketball all day and did not go to school. Well, they do, they also are much more open about having "agents" and people around them at a younger age. When you look at it from a basketball stand point, I can understand your position of "not understanding his decision at all" (paraphrasing, your almost exact words).

Though, Sig, if you look a little deeper, think you do get it. I am not sure how you are built, though I do know you are a smart guy and know there are indeed a number of ways to get into the league. Yes, talent will be found. Still, is that always a guarantee of a high draft choice? Plus, was it not your dream to play at the NCAA level? Maybe it was Papagiannis’. Plus, he gets to be a kid, go to school, maybe have a bit of a social life before becoming part of the machine.

One thing you do not want to happen is have a kid start to look as basketball as being more work than fun at a young age. I do not know Papagiannis’ mental state, from everything I hear he seems pretty driven. Still, you get guys like Darko Milicic and Niko Tskitishvili, those were guys who were part of the machine and one has to wonder if that did something to burn out their desire? Just a thought.

Honestly, it is a guilty pleasure of mine to see guys come to the States and go up against these guys domestically. I personally believe Dario Saric was a top 5 level recruit in 2012 and would have loved to see what he did in college. Think Enes Kanter not getting a chance was a crying shame, plus while sitting out certainly did not provide the same amount of preparation that playing pro would have, he is a case that looks to not be a complete failure in the least. I see the benefit of staying and going up against grown men, yet I also believe that their are benefits to coming over and playing domestically.

Scouts will find you if you’re talented, but if they do not have to look as hard, it does not necessarily hurt. People did not get to scout Giannis Antetokoumpo as closely as they could have. If he had played domestically, maybe he goes even higher than 15? Certainly looks like he should have. Know you were high on him, just also know you were one of the first to point out the Greek All-Star Game MVP was Brent "Air Georgia" Petway. Also know your concern over the undisciplined play in the AAU, yet again, they are kids. Plus, you have camps where you can be challenged, learn new things. Not to mention, doubt this stops Papagiannis’ involvement with the Greek International team in the summer. I have to say, think you saying you do not understand his decision at all comes purely from a basketball standpoint, when life before pro basketball is rarely JUST that.

[goldie92689Participant]

These kids coming over and playing at top high school programs is not playing with inferior talent. They’re not going to local high schools and playing against 6-3 centers. All the top prospects are playing at top high school programs. These programs may as well be Jr NBA teams.

[SiggyParticipant]

Inferior compared to pros? I’d say yes.

[SiggyParticipant]

Inferior compared to pros? I’d say yes.

[goldie92689Participant]

These kids coming over and playing at top high school programs is not playing with inferior talent. They’re not going to local high schools and playing against 6-3 centers. All the top prospects are playing at top high school programs. These programs may as well be Jr NBA teams.

[KDThunder35Participant]

I understand the concern of playing in a inferior talent pool, especially when comparing high school basketball to professional leagues overseas.

However, the NBA trends in terms of drafting players. There was the high school player frenzy when 8-10 high schoolers got selected every year. Then there was the trend where Euro players were being selected over proven college players just based off of a workout. Now the trend is grabbing the best freshman from college, the one-and-dones. I think it’s smart for Euro-players to come over at this point in time to showcase their talents consistently and become more accessible to more scouts in person. Get into a good college and prove they can play against the most hyped American college players.

[KDThunder35Participant]

I understand the concern of playing in a inferior talent pool, especially when comparing high school basketball to professional leagues overseas.

However, the NBA trends in terms of drafting players. There was the high school player frenzy when 8-10 high schoolers got selected every year. Then there was the trend where Euro players were being selected over proven college players just based off of a workout. Now the trend is grabbing the best freshman from college, the one-and-dones. I think it’s smart for Euro-players to come over at this point in time to showcase their talents consistently and become more accessible to more scouts in person. Get into a good college and prove they can play against the most hyped American college players.

[SiggyParticipant]

Being trained as pros, playing and practicing vs grown men or playing inferior America HS ball and (maybe) participating in AAU ball? I think they’d be better off continuing their development overseas if they’re already in a pro junior/cadet system as teens. If they want to come over for college, I don’t have a problem with that, but already being in a pro system there could be amateurism concerns (like Kanter.)

Scouts travel everywhere and have their ear to the streets all over the globe. If a player is intriguing enough, they will find them.

I don’t understand Papagiannis’ decision at all. He was already on scouts’ radars. Why willingly go play vs inferior competition?

[NickWayne87Participant]

and in alot of cases it will be….they’ll build more draft buzz coming in and dominating over here as opposed to falling in line on a pro team in obscurity.

[NickWayne87Participant]

and in alot of cases it will be….they’ll build more draft buzz coming in and dominating over here as opposed to falling in line on a pro team in obscurity.

[SiggyParticipant]

Prospects don’t have to give up their childhood to be part of a junior team. They still go to school and they still have friends from their age group. The difference is that they receive professional training and play vs better competition than HS and prep ball. Furthermore, if kids were concerned about being kids they wouldn’t be trying to declare as pros ASAP.

Gaining more hype is a plus for playing in the States. I have no argument against that. Even HS kids can start building their brand early. But if building a brand isn’t as important, they don’t need to play in the States to attract attention from NBA decision makers.

I really don’t care about seeing players develop before my eyes. That’s a selfish reason for advocating for more players coming here. I just don’t think they should turn down a better situation to develop as a player for an inferior one. Imagine if American kids had the same opportunity here. Playing against and with the best players of their state, vs the best players from other states. Playing with and against older, more mature players who know how to play the game better. No scrubs, no cupcake teams who have no business being in the same gym as them. More emphasis on skill building and learning the game as opposed to just playing a large number of games. If good enough, having the opportunity to play for a senior pro team at the age of 16-17. Not to mention they get PAID??? To me, the way that players are developed in Europe during their teenage yrs is ideal. If anything, I wish American players were more willing to train abroad, but I don’t see that happening since they tend to be wary and ignorant of things that aren’t American.

[SiggyParticipant]

Prospects don’t have to give up their childhood to be part of a junior team. They still go to school and they still have friends from their age group. The difference is that they receive professional training and play vs better competition than HS and prep ball. Furthermore, if kids were concerned about being kids they wouldn’t be trying to declare as pros ASAP.

Gaining more hype is a plus for playing in the States. I have no argument against that. Even HS kids can start building their brand early. But if building a brand isn’t as important, they don’t need to play in the States to attract attention from NBA decision makers.

I really don’t care about seeing players develop before my eyes. That’s a selfish reason for advocating for more players coming here. I just don’t think they should turn down a better situation to develop as a player for an inferior one. Imagine if American kids had the same opportunity here. Playing against and with the best players of their state, vs the best players from other states. Playing with and against older, more mature players who know how to play the game better. No scrubs, no cupcake teams who have no business being in the same gym as them. More emphasis on skill building and learning the game as opposed to just playing a large number of games. If good enough, having the opportunity to play for a senior pro team at the age of 16-17. Not to mention they get PAID??? To me, the way that players are developed in Europe during their teenage yrs is ideal. If anything, I wish American players were more willing to train abroad, but I don’t see that happening since they tend to be wary and ignorant of things that aren’t American.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Though in some cases, it may very well be true. It is also a giant adjustment to culture, language and it is indeed hard work. I think that is partly the reason Khadeem Lattin came back. As valuable as it is getting experience with pro coaching and training, it is not the same as being a high school kid in the States. That way, you learn the culture and language here, it could probably make the transition less stressful down the line as far as that is concerned.

Siggy, I agree that it is a selfish reason. That is why I called it a "guilty pleasure" rather than a "justified pleasure". I feel these kids should be getting paid and the system here sucks. However, it seems to be an ingrained tradition and I am guessing most GMs and scouts still watch a lot more NCAA games than Euroleague, ACB, ABA Liga, A1 Greek League, etc. Think at 19, even in Europe, that is kind of when being a kid tends to end for a high level prospect. Before than, I think people sort of like doing so.

Andrew Wiggins honestly would have been completely fine staying in high school for 2014. Truly believe that. Would it make any sense from a basketball standpoint? Not really. He is ready for that level and it more than likely would not help his development as a player much to once again kill kids not close to as talented. However, would he like to be a kid, maybe have one more year to do so while waiting for his one year of college and than enter the 2015 Draft? Think he would have loved it.

That is part of the culture early entry has created. Could you see Shaq spending three years in college now? He would have been a definite one and done. Guess that is what guaranteed rookie contracts led to. Beyond this, though, I agree with you in a way, yet feel you are being a bit too harsh as far as having your "no apparent comprehension" (paraphrasing, this time actually doing so). Plus, if you are getting paid, dude, you are not going to be eligible for college. It is a bull$hit rule, just one that might lead a kid to come play in the United States if they would like to play for a NCAA program.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Though in some cases, it may very well be true. It is also a giant adjustment to culture, language and it is indeed hard work. I think that is partly the reason Khadeem Lattin came back. As valuable as it is getting experience with pro coaching and training, it is not the same as being a high school kid in the States. That way, you learn the culture and language here, it could probably make the transition less stressful down the line as far as that is concerned.

Siggy, I agree that it is a selfish reason. That is why I called it a "guilty pleasure" rather than a "justified pleasure". I feel these kids should be getting paid and the system here sucks. However, it seems to be an ingrained tradition and I am guessing most GMs and scouts still watch a lot more NCAA games than Euroleague, ACB, ABA Liga, A1 Greek League, etc. Think at 19, even in Europe, that is kind of when being a kid tends to end for a high level prospect. Before than, I think people sort of like doing so.

Andrew Wiggins honestly would have been completely fine staying in high school for 2014. Truly believe that. Would it make any sense from a basketball standpoint? Not really. He is ready for that level and it more than likely would not help his development as a player much to once again kill kids not close to as talented. However, would he like to be a kid, maybe have one more year to do so while waiting for his one year of college and than enter the 2015 Draft? Think he would have loved it.

That is part of the culture early entry has created. Could you see Shaq spending three years in college now? He would have been a definite one and done. Guess that is what guaranteed rookie contracts led to. Beyond this, though, I agree with you in a way, yet feel you are being a bit too harsh as far as having your "no apparent comprehension" (paraphrasing, this time actually doing so). Plus, if you are getting paid, dude, you are not going to be eligible for college. It is a bull$hit rule, just one that might lead a kid to come play in the United States if they would like to play for a NCAA program.

[tabone1Participant]

It’s not a new trend. Plenty have done it before. Just off the top if my head:

Sarunas Jasikevicius
Marc Gasol
Robertas Javtokas
Juan Fernandez
Robert Archibald
Linas Kleiza
Enes Kanter
Ioannis Papapetrou
Amadeo Della Valle

[tabone1Participant]

It’s not a new trend. Plenty have done it before. Just off the top if my head:

Sarunas Jasikevicius
Marc Gasol
Robertas Javtokas
Juan Fernandez
Robert Archibald
Linas Kleiza
Enes Kanter
Ioannis Papapetrou
Amadeo Della Valle

[Author]

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