[Scott42444Participant]

Anyone who watched the Bulls vs Knicks games heard it non-stop from Van Gundy and Mike Breen, but it was just a microcosm of both franchises this afternoon.  The Knicks have talent, enough talent to make the playoffs in a terrible Eastern Conference, and the superstar (playing the best basketball of his career) that most NBA analysts believe is a prerequisite for NBA success.  The Bulls are once again without their superstar, they also traded a 2-time All-Star, and they were led in scoring today by a mid-season castoff acquired from the free agent scrap heap.  The two teams represent two of the largest markets in the NBA (#1 and #3, I believe) and have had many hard fought battles over my lifetime that always draws media attention.  Anyone watching the game can clearly tell which team is interested in winning by any means neccesary and which team would be ecstatic (even though they aren’t eliminated from postseason play) to just end the season today so they can clean out their lockers and fly to a resort for vacation.  If I were a Knicks fan, I would be disgusted with almost every player wearing a Knicks uniform and if I were a potential free agent to be, I would be calling my agents on the way to the airport letting them know I will be interested in playing meaningful basketball next season.  Besides Amare and Carmelo, I couldn’t find anyone on the Knicks that deserved any playing time today.  Hell, Jimmer Fredette was signed for the minimum after being released from his previous, non-playoff team that used a lottery pick on him, and he recieved a standing ovation when he entered the game in garbage time from the United Center crowd.  His new teammates, and Bulls starters who all played over 30+ minutes today, were on their feet screaming when he made a 17 foot jumper with the game already in hand.  The Bulls have a 25-year old former MVP that will (in theory, barring his 3rd major injury) be rejoining the starting lineup to begin next season.  He might be a lesser player than he was, but by all accounts his surgeries were successul and repaired all the damage that was done.  Of course, he will be an injury waiting to happen everytime he takes the court, but it wouldn’t be unheard of for him to regain superstar form.  The Bulls have (more than likely) 2 picks in the 2014 NBA Draft, they own the rights to all of their own picks moving forward, the right to swap draft slots in the 2015 NBA Draft with the Cavaliers (if the Cavs make the playoffs, which they will be aggressive in trying to acheive), another 1st rounder from Sacramento if they are outside the Top 10 over the next 4 seasons (which is likely), and the rights to the most dominant player in European basketball.  The Knicks have ZERO room to manuever under the salary cap, they do not own the rights to their own pick in the 2014 draft, and they owe another pick to the Toronto Raptors due to the terrible trade they made for the underperforming Andrea Bargnani.

 

My question is this, for a player like Carmelo Anthony (and other free agents to be in the next couple of seasons), does any of the above matter?  Do players notice these things when they watch national games?  Carmelo will be 30 next season and said that he doesn’t care about "max money" (although it remains to be seen if he means that), he only cares about putting himself in the right situation to possibly win an NBA Championship.  Do players factor any of these things into their decision making?  Sometimes I feel that NBA players don’t see the big picture.  I don’t blame the New York born Anthony for wanting this, but sometimes players seem to be drawn to the THOUGHT of winning in a certain city over the realistic possibility of winning.  Sometimes the front office and coaching of a franchise looks to me (from the outside, as a fan, looking in) like a lost cause but sometimes players don’t seem to notice.  Do they get sold on great sales pitches during their free agency period?  The Bulls have had an impossible time signing Top Tier free agents since Jordan left in 1998, despite over the top marketing pitches from their past 3 general managers.  I like the city I was born, raised in, and currently live in but I could see myself moving someday.  This winter has been brutal and I wouldn’t mind living in a state that is 50+ degrees right now opposed to 10.  But, New York is similar weather-wise, too.  What am I missing?  I know the Bulls are frugal, but it seems as if some of the championship focused superstars (like Miami’s Big 3, for example) are willing to work with the team’s salary cap situation to ensure they are more competetive.  

What do you guys think?  Do I have my Bulls colored Kool Aid flowing a little too much?  I personally believe the Bulls are, at best, a hard fought 2nd round exit this year.  I do believe that they can be a legit contender if they use their 2 draft picks well this year and sign one of the top available free agents this year.  Carmelo being at the top, but bringing European MVP Mirotic and ALSO someone like Lance Stephenson or Gordan Hayward into the fold would also suffice.  Am I nuts?  I always thought that saying a team plays with "heart" was a dumb cliche that sportscasters used to try to make the game more interesting when they are broadcasting 2 talentless teams.  But, this is becoming a pattern for the Bulls.

The difference between the 2 teams today really opened my eyes.  I just can’t believe that professional basketball players could be so different with their effort level when they are closely matched (possibly even the Knicks have MORE) in regards to talent.

 

 

 

 

 

[Scott42444Participant]

 One other quick point I wanted to make.  Anyone who watched the Bulls vs Knicks game saw the definition of "High Basketball IQ" when watching Joakim Noah play.  He has an ugly shot and doesn’t have any real go-to moves.  He dribbles well for a center, but not THAT well.  He doesn’t slam home emphatic dunks everytime, instead he kind of has weird body contortions and flips the ball in.  But, he was pretty dominant in the game today.  It’s hard to really say someone who had 13 points, 14 assists, and 12 rebounds is dominant (although triple-doubles are an awesome feat) when just looking at the stat line.  But, that dude is good.  He really just makes everyone better and is a personification of the terms, as I said, "High Basketball IQ" and "Makes players around him better".  It’s sometimes hard, especially when reading about possible draft prospects and international players (especially since it’s a different style of basketball and harder to see as many games), to understand how guys are so valuable when their stats don’t jump out at you.  It’s when you are watching a center contest a shot, grab a rebound, dribble (awkwardly) coast-to-coast, and make a ugly, contorting layup that you can realize when a guy is just a "basketball player".

[burgessfourParticipant]

Although the Knicks are probably as talented as the Bulls the records are what they are. To me the difference is the Knicks see no reason to be optimistic about their future as a team. Their cap is screwed and there’s no help coming via the draft. The Bulls for the most part want to be there. They know they could be a lot better with a healthy D. Rose, plus they’ll likely have 2 mid-first round picks in the draft. They’re pretty good as they are, and could be a lot better next year. They want to be a part of it, who wouldn’t want to be a winner in Chicago (I’m a Sixers fan). They also play some hard D. You don’t have to be a great player to play great D, you just have to want to.

[Scott42444Participant]

I feel that the Bulls are in good shape, but they NEVER land the top free agents.  When they do land them, they have to overpay for them.  Carlos Boozer is a really good player who brings a dimension to the Bulls that nobody can replicate (up until Taj Gibson’s play recently), but he is paid too much for what he brings.  Maybe you have experienced this as a Sixers fan, too.  I think that is why Sam is going 100% all-in on the draft, because he doesn’t trust free agency.  It’s just seemed silly to me that when guys like Carmelo, Dwight Howard, and now even Kevin Love are rumored to be available Chicago isn’t considered a viable option.  I know for a fact that Howard said he would not sign an extension if he were traded to the Bulls and Carmelo wouldn’t give a yes or a no before he was traded to the Knicks (his only real desired destination).  I know that every guy has a different opinion of where they want to live, raise a family, pay taxes, etc. just like every American citizen does.  But, these guys say they are interested in winning championships and I would think that the Bulls have a roster just begging for a star to put them in the championship conversation.  I am not in LOVE with Chicago, especially in the winter, but it is the 3rd largest city in America and a major market.  It also is a great sports town and Bulls fans have helped the Bulls lead the NBA in total attendance in the years AFTER Jordan left (which has been 15 some odd years, now).  I was just wondering if anyone has heard (outside of Illinois) any reasons why the Bulls are not a desired destination.  As far as competant front offices go, the Bulls actually play in the largest market (besides the Los Angeles Lakers) compared to San Antonio, Boston, OKC, etc.  Just looking for insight.  Thanks.

 

[Scott42444Participant]

I feel that the Bulls are in good shape, but they NEVER land the top free agents.  When they do land them, they have to overpay for them.  Carlos Boozer is a really good player who brings a dimension to the Bulls that nobody can replicate (up until Taj Gibson’s play recently), but he is paid too much for what he brings.  Maybe you have experienced this as a Sixers fan, too.  I think that is why Sam is going 100% all-in on the draft, because he doesn’t trust free agency.  It’s just seemed silly to me that when guys like Carmelo, Dwight Howard, and now even Kevin Love are rumored to be available Chicago isn’t considered a viable option.  I know for a fact that Howard said he would not sign an extension if he were traded to the Bulls and Carmelo wouldn’t give a yes or a no before he was traded to the Knicks (his only real desired destination).  I know that every guy has a different opinion of where they want to live, raise a family, pay taxes, etc. just like every American citizen does.  But, these guys say they are interested in winning championships and I would think that the Bulls have a roster just begging for a star to put them in the championship conversation.  I am not in LOVE with Chicago, especially in the winter, but it is the 3rd largest city in America and a major market.  It also is a great sports town and Bulls fans have helped the Bulls lead the NBA in total attendance in the years AFTER Jordan left (which has been 15 some odd years, now).  I was just wondering if anyone has heard (outside of Illinois) any reasons why the Bulls are not a desired destination.  As far as competant front offices go, the Bulls actually play in the largest market (besides the Los Angeles Lakers) compared to San Antonio, Boston, OKC, etc.  Just looking for insight.  Thanks.

 

[burgessfourParticipant]

Although the Knicks are probably as talented as the Bulls the records are what they are. To me the difference is the Knicks see no reason to be optimistic about their future as a team. Their cap is screwed and there’s no help coming via the draft. The Bulls for the most part want to be there. They know they could be a lot better with a healthy D. Rose, plus they’ll likely have 2 mid-first round picks in the draft. They’re pretty good as they are, and could be a lot better next year. They want to be a part of it, who wouldn’t want to be a winner in Chicago (I’m a Sixers fan). They also play some hard D. You don’t have to be a great player to play great D, you just have to want to.

[Scott42444Participant]

 One other quick point I wanted to make.  Anyone who watched the Bulls vs Knicks game saw the definition of "High Basketball IQ" when watching Joakim Noah play.  He has an ugly shot and doesn’t have any real go-to moves.  He dribbles well for a center, but not THAT well.  He doesn’t slam home emphatic dunks everytime, instead he kind of has weird body contortions and flips the ball in.  But, he was pretty dominant in the game today.  It’s hard to really say someone who had 13 points, 14 assists, and 12 rebounds is dominant (although triple-doubles are an awesome feat) when just looking at the stat line.  But, that dude is good.  He really just makes everyone better and is a personification of the terms, as I said, "High Basketball IQ" and "Makes players around him better".  It’s sometimes hard, especially when reading about possible draft prospects and international players (especially since it’s a different style of basketball and harder to see as many games), to understand how guys are so valuable when their stats don’t jump out at you.  It’s when you are watching a center contest a shot, grab a rebound, dribble (awkwardly) coast-to-coast, and make a ugly, contorting layup that you can realize when a guy is just a "basketball player".

[usfballerParticipant]

 Plain and simple. This is a guy who broke up a dynasty because he wasn’t willing to pay Phil Jackson to come back. This same man said (prior to the White Sox winning the Series) that he would gladly trade all 6 of his NBA championships for one World Series ring. And he’s the same guy who said "Organizations win championships, not players."  

No one respects a man who in the 3rd largest market is making cash dump trades (Lo Deng, Kyle Korver) or letting assets walk because we are to cheap to pay them (Asik and every member of every bench mob they put together). 

As long as Reinsdorf is still owner, the Bulls will continue to struggle landing any major free agents. 

[usfballerParticipant]

 Plain and simple. This is a guy who broke up a dynasty because he wasn’t willing to pay Phil Jackson to come back. This same man said (prior to the White Sox winning the Series) that he would gladly trade all 6 of his NBA championships for one World Series ring. And he’s the same guy who said "Organizations win championships, not players."  

No one respects a man who in the 3rd largest market is making cash dump trades (Lo Deng, Kyle Korver) or letting assets walk because we are to cheap to pay them (Asik and every member of every bench mob they put together). 

As long as Reinsdorf is still owner, the Bulls will continue to struggle landing any major free agents. 

[terrancebowerParticipant]

Jerry Krause made the comment about organizations winning championsips.

[terrancebowerParticipant]

Jerry Krause made the comment about organizations winning championsips.

[Scott42444Participant]

 Yeah, it could have something to do with Reinsdorf.  I give him more credit than most though, I actually think he’s the 2nd best owner in Chicago Sports history.  Of course, there are some really bad owners like Comiskey, Bill Wirtz, and the Tribune Company as major owners so there isn’t a lot of competition.  He gets a lot of flack for being frugal but I don’t know if it’s earned.  It started with Scottie Pippen, but the real story is (and Scottie admits this, too) that Scottie wanted a long term contract.  Reinsdorf told him that it was a REALLY bad idea because the league was changing and he would be grossly underpaid but Scottie just wanted the long term security.  Once a guy signs a deal though, he is going to hold him to it.  Same with MJ, but when it came time to pay him he did.  Until Kobe this year, MJ had the highest paying TWO seasons in history.  Kobe now has #2, but MJ is still #1 with $33 million PLUS in 1998.  That was over 15 years ago.  Reinsdorf is loyal, which kind of always combined him with Krause (case in point, the organizations win championships quote).  That was a strange situation too because Krause was a GM when the league was a league of TEAMS, but oversaw the Jordan Bulls when the league started to become a league of STARS.  He wasn’t prepared for players to obtain so much power over a team’s fortunes.  But Reinsdorf is loyal to his guys.  When Wade was a free agent (prior to the Big 3 signing with Miami) he said that the Bulls aren’t loyal to their players, which is still a reputation that they hold.  But it actually couldn’t be further from the truth.  Reinsdorf with the Sox has Kenny Williams as GM (now VP of Ops), Guillen, Robin Ventura, Chris Singleton, Hawk Harrelson, etc. as part of the organization.  The Bulls have Paxson, Cartwright, Wennington, Stacey King, B.J. was a scout, Randy Brown is a scout, Pete Myers was a coach (actually a head coach for a couple games).  They pay Scottie Pippen to sit courtside even though he bad mouthed the organization for years after he left.  

As far as the luxury tax, I agree with Reinsdorf when he says that he is willing to pay the tax for a contending team.  The Bulls paid it last year because they thought they had a chance and WERE going to pay it this year but when Rose got hurt again they felt it was stupid to pay it.  It DOES hurt the team’s chances at adding pieces, beyond just the actual monetary penalties towards the organization.  But you are right, the perception is that the Bulls had to dump some salary in order to even have permission to use the amnesty on Boozer (if they want to) in the off-season.  They saved enough money to get the green light.

The free spending owners of the league don’t really equal wins all the time though, either.  Yes, Dallas won a title but their owner uses the team as a toy versus a business so I can understand how Cuban is able to spend money the way he does.  If I am a player, I don’t care.  But the Bulls were the first NBA team to have elite facilities like the United Center (when it opened), the Berto Center for practice (put in the suburbs because so many of the players lived out that way), a special private plane that was pimped out for taller players and rich millionaire athletes.  They were one of the first teams in professional sports to have these things.  They haven’t done anything like that lately that has made news but they do get somewhat of a bad reputation.

Krause was more of a problem with Phil Jackson than Reinsdorf, although Reinsdorf stuck with Krause WAY too long out of loyalty.  Hell, Phil Jackson had problems with the Buss family for awhile and he was sleeping with one of them.  Lots of egos in the NBA.

But, fair reputation or not, you are probably right.  There is a general perception that the ownership and front office aren’t willing to go that "extra mile" to push a team over the top.

 

  

 

 

[Scott42444Participant]

 Yeah, it could have something to do with Reinsdorf.  I give him more credit than most though, I actually think he’s the 2nd best owner in Chicago Sports history.  Of course, there are some really bad owners like Comiskey, Bill Wirtz, and the Tribune Company as major owners so there isn’t a lot of competition.  He gets a lot of flack for being frugal but I don’t know if it’s earned.  It started with Scottie Pippen, but the real story is (and Scottie admits this, too) that Scottie wanted a long term contract.  Reinsdorf told him that it was a REALLY bad idea because the league was changing and he would be grossly underpaid but Scottie just wanted the long term security.  Once a guy signs a deal though, he is going to hold him to it.  Same with MJ, but when it came time to pay him he did.  Until Kobe this year, MJ had the highest paying TWO seasons in history.  Kobe now has #2, but MJ is still #1 with $33 million PLUS in 1998.  That was over 15 years ago.  Reinsdorf is loyal, which kind of always combined him with Krause (case in point, the organizations win championships quote).  That was a strange situation too because Krause was a GM when the league was a league of TEAMS, but oversaw the Jordan Bulls when the league started to become a league of STARS.  He wasn’t prepared for players to obtain so much power over a team’s fortunes.  But Reinsdorf is loyal to his guys.  When Wade was a free agent (prior to the Big 3 signing with Miami) he said that the Bulls aren’t loyal to their players, which is still a reputation that they hold.  But it actually couldn’t be further from the truth.  Reinsdorf with the Sox has Kenny Williams as GM (now VP of Ops), Guillen, Robin Ventura, Chris Singleton, Hawk Harrelson, etc. as part of the organization.  The Bulls have Paxson, Cartwright, Wennington, Stacey King, B.J. was a scout, Randy Brown is a scout, Pete Myers was a coach (actually a head coach for a couple games).  They pay Scottie Pippen to sit courtside even though he bad mouthed the organization for years after he left.  

As far as the luxury tax, I agree with Reinsdorf when he says that he is willing to pay the tax for a contending team.  The Bulls paid it last year because they thought they had a chance and WERE going to pay it this year but when Rose got hurt again they felt it was stupid to pay it.  It DOES hurt the team’s chances at adding pieces, beyond just the actual monetary penalties towards the organization.  But you are right, the perception is that the Bulls had to dump some salary in order to even have permission to use the amnesty on Boozer (if they want to) in the off-season.  They saved enough money to get the green light.

The free spending owners of the league don’t really equal wins all the time though, either.  Yes, Dallas won a title but their owner uses the team as a toy versus a business so I can understand how Cuban is able to spend money the way he does.  If I am a player, I don’t care.  But the Bulls were the first NBA team to have elite facilities like the United Center (when it opened), the Berto Center for practice (put in the suburbs because so many of the players lived out that way), a special private plane that was pimped out for taller players and rich millionaire athletes.  They were one of the first teams in professional sports to have these things.  They haven’t done anything like that lately that has made news but they do get somewhat of a bad reputation.

Krause was more of a problem with Phil Jackson than Reinsdorf, although Reinsdorf stuck with Krause WAY too long out of loyalty.  Hell, Phil Jackson had problems with the Buss family for awhile and he was sleeping with one of them.  Lots of egos in the NBA.

But, fair reputation or not, you are probably right.  There is a general perception that the ownership and front office aren’t willing to go that "extra mile" to push a team over the top.

 

  

 

 

[Scott42444Participant]

 Now I feel like a jerk talking negaitve about Reinsdorf.  One of his sons just passed away today.  Condolences to the Reinsdorf family.  His other son Michael Reinsdorf is actually stepping up into the role of running the Bulls, so we might see a subtle shift in philosophy.  If it’s as amazing of a change as Bill Wirtz to Rocky Wirtz of the Blackhawks they might win the next 20 titles.

[Scott42444Participant]

 Now I feel like a jerk talking negaitve about Reinsdorf.  One of his sons just passed away today.  Condolences to the Reinsdorf family.  His other son Michael Reinsdorf is actually stepping up into the role of running the Bulls, so we might see a subtle shift in philosophy.  If it’s as amazing of a change as Bill Wirtz to Rocky Wirtz of the Blackhawks they might win the next 20 titles.

[Author]

Posts