[WhodunitParticipant]

Its a lengthy post but it goes against the notion that most pundits are putting out there.

 

 We keep hearing Kevin Love needs to be gotten in order to Contend RIGHT NOW! How even if we have to trade Wiggins and Bennett we should do it. I disagree with all of that.

First off, its beyond me why they had to trade a pretty good back-up center in Tyler Zeller and why the didnt try to dump an Alonzo Gee($3m) or Carrick Felix($1m) or Scotty Hopson($1.4m) instead?  Also why’d they have to give up a 2016 1st rounder to boot in tandem with a desirable asset like Zeller? I’d really like an explanation on that if someones got one.

So, whats the rush Cleveland??? Why do we need to sell everything in order to try and win a ring Next year? The way I see it: The whole 2014-15 season is a laid back and developmental season for the Cavs and the LBJ-back-in-wine/gold-tour. They’ll probably still manage to win 50+games cuz lebron is that great and the city/team spirit is that high and the east is that bad. Why not let this be Lebrons return year where hes celebrated for being back and takes it easy, hell HE’S BEEN TO 4 STRAIGHT FINALS GAMES WHILE BASICALLY CARRYING all of the luggage known as the Heatles for this whole past season and alot of 2013 as well. He needs rest. His body needs rest, his mind does to. We do not wanna burn out the candle that is Lebron before we’re actually ready to start winning rings. Cleveland coaches need to start putting him on the TIm Duncan plan starting next season, it’ll be his 12th year. Which is more like his 14th year with all the games he’s played and all the minutes he’s logged carrying his sorry teams. Put him on a 34min/game restriction starting next year, he doesnt need another MVP in his trophy case, thats not the objective anymore, preservation is key. Let the young pups handle the bulk of the load while he fills in whatever is lacking. Let the team lose, dont send LBJ in to try to save the game every night. His 60+ Win teams from his first go-round were found out to be hollow and irreflective of that win percentage when it came to what matters most- the playoffs. They lost every year because if lebron wasnt lebron then they weren’t even worth 20wins as a team. Let the guys step up  into their natural roles, figure out who is best for what. This brings me to the next point…

Given that i dont think the Cavs should be trying to win it all next year and should basically take it easy to see what they have while allowing Lebron to rest up and sorta take a year off, they should be in no rush to trade any of their young potential-laden pieces on rookie contracts. Eff the notion of trading for Kevin love or whoever else for right now. Put all these guys on the floor with Lebron and see which guys click and which guys will eventually stick. Everyone on that team will have a new role now that the King is Back, let those roles form organically while you evalutate the long term potential of all these pieces. Plus the New Coach Blatt has to set up a new system for the team, its gonna take him maybe 2-3 years until he eventually figures out the right system and fit for his guys. Remember, its a copycat league, San Antonio just won because its sytem was impeccable at the right time. More teams will follow suit. Lebron is the perfect starting piece for any system. And they say the new coach is an offensive genius so let him try and make a system that fits his players talents. Im guessing its gonna be close to Miami’s "Space and Pace". They have the players for "Pace" right now but their missing the shooters need to "Space" effectively.

So by the end of the season management will have an idea who the keepers are and who they should be trying to trade. (btw, i cant wait to see Lbj use Wiggins in all sorta ways) (also btw, does anyone else find it funny that the Cavs basically drafted the past two #1 overall SF picks thinking they’d replace their Lost King only to see him return the same year?). Now knowing which guys to keep, which to let go and which guys fit ur system sets you up pretty well to sign a free agent big man in 2015, im thinking Marc Gasol.

I dont know why the Cavs would trade away their young assets just to get Love when they could realistically sign him next year when he’s a free agent and keep their young assets and draft picks as well!! Chances are even if you get him this year you wont win it all and or even make it to the Eastern Finals, it takes time and chemistry, especially with a bunch of young guys, new coach and exhausted Lbj So all this talk of "your gonna have to give up something nice to get something nice back" is pure stupidity and very short-sighted thinking. Dont players wanna come play with Lbj now, even though it is in Cleveland? Im sure they’ll be able to entice some pretty good players every year now, cuz Lbj is fun to play with and is the player that gives them the best shot at a ring.

 

Its really great to have Lebron Back in Ohio. I know he’s a changed man now but I missed the team camaraderie he had when he was in Cleveland the first go round with the Silly stuff like taking fake pictures on the court or the Harlem shake video in 2013 or the videobombing. Alot of the fun was missing this past year with the Heat. Bosh even said as much. Lbj is a kid at heart and truly has fun out on the court with his teammates, which is what its all about and the reason Ohio loves him.

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ghost01Participant]

 I know people have accused me of being a Wiggins hater in the past, but I am legitimately not sure what they should do here.

The T Wolves shouldn’t accept any deal without Wiggins, first of all. But the Cavs really have to decide. Love is still fairly young, and it just seems logical since LeBron is 30 to go with the known commodity. Get the guy in his prime, win right away, don’t worry about what happens with Wiggins.

But I would be lying if I said I’m not intrigued to see what Wiggins would do on THIS team. 

[Ghost01Participant]

 I know people have accused me of being a Wiggins hater in the past, but I am legitimately not sure what they should do here.

The T Wolves shouldn’t accept any deal without Wiggins, first of all. But the Cavs really have to decide. Love is still fairly young, and it just seems logical since LeBron is 30 to go with the known commodity. Get the guy in his prime, win right away, don’t worry about what happens with Wiggins.

But I would be lying if I said I’m not intrigued to see what Wiggins would do on THIS team. 

[phwillParticipant]

is intriguing.  Right now I’m guessing their starters would be Kyrie, Wiggins, Lebron, Thompson and Varejao. If they brought Kevin Love in, would they move Varejao to the bench and start Love at center to go a bit smaller and spread the floor?  Bennett looked good in summer league and I’m wondering if he could eventually be a better fit at the 4, But Thompson is a Rich Paul client, and I’m guessing Lebron will have a lot of leverage on the decision whether Thompson sticks around when he hits FA next summer. 

I agree with the strategy that you wait on Love, because ultimately if he wants out to Cleveland, the Cavs leverage only gets better leading up to this year’s trade deadline. If Cleveland could get away with Waiters, Thompson and either the Grizzlies or the Heat’s pick next year, they would be set up so well for the next few years.  I’m aware that would be a lopsided trade in terms of fair value, but just like Lebron in this FA period, Love is going to have all the leverage the closer we get to next summer.  

 

  

[phwillParticipant]

is intriguing.  Right now I’m guessing their starters would be Kyrie, Wiggins, Lebron, Thompson and Varejao. If they brought Kevin Love in, would they move Varejao to the bench and start Love at center to go a bit smaller and spread the floor?  Bennett looked good in summer league and I’m wondering if he could eventually be a better fit at the 4, But Thompson is a Rich Paul client, and I’m guessing Lebron will have a lot of leverage on the decision whether Thompson sticks around when he hits FA next summer. 

I agree with the strategy that you wait on Love, because ultimately if he wants out to Cleveland, the Cavs leverage only gets better leading up to this year’s trade deadline. If Cleveland could get away with Waiters, Thompson and either the Grizzlies or the Heat’s pick next year, they would be set up so well for the next few years.  I’m aware that would be a lopsided trade in terms of fair value, but just like Lebron in this FA period, Love is going to have all the leverage the closer we get to next summer.  

 

  

[NeggedNoelSaric]

agreed with op
why throw away the eggs just to eat the bacon? its way better to have both.

if you can out right sign him what the point of sacrificing to acquire him. All you have to do is remain patient.

[NeggedNoelSaric]

agreed with op
why throw away the eggs just to eat the bacon? its way better to have both.

if you can out right sign him what the point of sacrificing to acquire him. All you have to do is remain patient.

[DCParticipant]

 Really like your vision and your ideas here but there are some flaws in what you are proposing…

1) How do you convince a 4 time MVP who has ambitions of being the GOAT to "take a year off" at 29? He’ll never be any better physically than he is right now so a year to figure it out is a waste of his talents and skill.  I don’t see James agreeing on this path.

2) With the max contracts of James and Irving on the books and the rookie deal of Wiggins it would be impossible to create the cap space required to sign Love without trading/renouncing everyone else on the roster.  If they really want Love , the best way to get him is via trade or sign and trade during free agency 2015.

3) They did trade Alonso Gee to New Orleans for a 2nd rounder.  Salary dump required to fit James under the cap.

4) Which Eastern Conference team is going to stop the Cavs from making it to the finals? Heat? Unlikely even if they somehow signed Melo to form a new big 3 (you heard it here 1st). Pacers? They need to keep Stephenson to have a chance and given the roumors Hibbert is being shopped, it seems a retool May be in progress. Chicago? Another team that depends on Melo signing for them.  Not sure Gasol would be enough for them to top the Cavs.

You are totally right on Lebron being back in Cleveland, this move gave most fans a new 2nd favourite team to watch as well as new sub-plots (LBJ’s 1st game back in Miami etc) and generally rekindled interest in the 2014/15 season which was beginning to look like Miami v Western Conference again.

Can’t wait to see how it unfolds.

[DCParticipant]

 Really like your vision and your ideas here but there are some flaws in what you are proposing…

1) How do you convince a 4 time MVP who has ambitions of being the GOAT to "take a year off" at 29? He’ll never be any better physically than he is right now so a year to figure it out is a waste of his talents and skill.  I don’t see James agreeing on this path.

2) With the max contracts of James and Irving on the books and the rookie deal of Wiggins it would be impossible to create the cap space required to sign Love without trading/renouncing everyone else on the roster.  If they really want Love , the best way to get him is via trade or sign and trade during free agency 2015.

3) They did trade Alonso Gee to New Orleans for a 2nd rounder.  Salary dump required to fit James under the cap.

4) Which Eastern Conference team is going to stop the Cavs from making it to the finals? Heat? Unlikely even if they somehow signed Melo to form a new big 3 (you heard it here 1st). Pacers? They need to keep Stephenson to have a chance and given the roumors Hibbert is being shopped, it seems a retool May be in progress. Chicago? Another team that depends on Melo signing for them.  Not sure Gasol would be enough for them to top the Cavs.

You are totally right on Lebron being back in Cleveland, this move gave most fans a new 2nd favourite team to watch as well as new sub-plots (LBJ’s 1st game back in Miami etc) and generally rekindled interest in the 2014/15 season which was beginning to look like Miami v Western Conference again.

Can’t wait to see how it unfolds.

[WhodunitParticipant]

 1) You make a great point. How to convince LBj that this is the right way to go? Well you tell him straight up. All these guys are pups and will need to blend in with a brand new coach in a brand new system. We’re building for the long haul here not just for the 2yrs you signed up for so far. We expect you to last another 6 years at least. But we need to preserve you in order for you to last that long. THat means limiting your minutes and developing your teammates so that they may reach close to your level of genius. (Referencing Bill Simmons article here basically stating that a superstar like LBJ needs running mates who see the game the same way he does. Like what Lbj had with Wade the first 2-3 years with all those alley-oops.) Lbj is no longer gonna be be able to carry the whole team on his back like he did in his early days. Plus and more importantly his young teammates need to grow and develop and learn from thier mistakes and get a lot of playing time. You cant expect Wiggins to reach his ceiling if he gets cornered into a role of "hey, guard the best perimeter guy, get rebounds and be there for alley oops when we need you". THats a disservice to his potential. Ditto for all the rest.

The same goes with all the other players. They have a new coach who actually knows offense and is NOT Mike Brown and his non-existent offense. They need to mesh. THis only happens if they are given time and oppurtunites to fail and try again with a new coach and new LBJ. Plus im sure LBJ wouldn’t mind taking it easy after brwaking his back carrying Miami this last year. And im predicting an injury to LBJ that keeps him out for a while. NOT WISHING one on him but his health record is almost non-human. Maybe his luck breaks this year. Hope not tho. The plan to take it easy on LBJ’s minutes this year is a plan for the future. We know what LBJ is, but we have no idea what anybody else is, take it easy on Lbj and see what they have and what are the keepers and ones to get rid of.

 

2) Well with the new cba and salary cap expected to go up from $63m to $80m in a couple years who knows what will happen. Plus like i said if you dont like one of the players who you currently have trade him this offseason or even at the trade deadline. That is most likely Waiters and maybe Bennett, thats close to $10m. But you need to see what  they are first and foremost. Also Lbjs deal is only for 2yrs. The cap space will be there

3) ok, didnt know that, his name and salary was still listed as current on shamsports.com

4) Well no team exactly stands out right now as the leader in the East. But like i said, does it matter if the Cavs make it to the finals and lose again? or lose in the Eastern Finals? Would that be considered a "good and successful season" when the ONLY objective is to win rings. Let lbj go easy. Cleveland knows what it has in lbj. But regardless of how bad the East is i think the Cavs still make it to the 3-4 seed at least and the 2nd round. Nothing but rings counts anymore, a finals appearance is a drain on Lbj once again. Yes maybe the young guys benefit from a deep playoff run but they need to be thrown in the water and either sink or swim with SOME help from lbj, not a full-on rescue mission everytime. This plan is for the long term, not moral victories.

 

[WhodunitParticipant]

 1) You make a great point. How to convince LBj that this is the right way to go? Well you tell him straight up. All these guys are pups and will need to blend in with a brand new coach in a brand new system. We’re building for the long haul here not just for the 2yrs you signed up for so far. We expect you to last another 6 years at least. But we need to preserve you in order for you to last that long. THat means limiting your minutes and developing your teammates so that they may reach close to your level of genius. (Referencing Bill Simmons article here basically stating that a superstar like LBJ needs running mates who see the game the same way he does. Like what Lbj had with Wade the first 2-3 years with all those alley-oops.) Lbj is no longer gonna be be able to carry the whole team on his back like he did in his early days. Plus and more importantly his young teammates need to grow and develop and learn from thier mistakes and get a lot of playing time. You cant expect Wiggins to reach his ceiling if he gets cornered into a role of "hey, guard the best perimeter guy, get rebounds and be there for alley oops when we need you". THats a disservice to his potential. Ditto for all the rest.

The same goes with all the other players. They have a new coach who actually knows offense and is NOT Mike Brown and his non-existent offense. They need to mesh. THis only happens if they are given time and oppurtunites to fail and try again with a new coach and new LBJ. Plus im sure LBJ wouldn’t mind taking it easy after brwaking his back carrying Miami this last year. And im predicting an injury to LBJ that keeps him out for a while. NOT WISHING one on him but his health record is almost non-human. Maybe his luck breaks this year. Hope not tho. The plan to take it easy on LBJ’s minutes this year is a plan for the future. We know what LBJ is, but we have no idea what anybody else is, take it easy on Lbj and see what they have and what are the keepers and ones to get rid of.

 

2) Well with the new cba and salary cap expected to go up from $63m to $80m in a couple years who knows what will happen. Plus like i said if you dont like one of the players who you currently have trade him this offseason or even at the trade deadline. That is most likely Waiters and maybe Bennett, thats close to $10m. But you need to see what  they are first and foremost. Also Lbjs deal is only for 2yrs. The cap space will be there

3) ok, didnt know that, his name and salary was still listed as current on shamsports.com

4) Well no team exactly stands out right now as the leader in the East. But like i said, does it matter if the Cavs make it to the finals and lose again? or lose in the Eastern Finals? Would that be considered a "good and successful season" when the ONLY objective is to win rings. Let lbj go easy. Cleveland knows what it has in lbj. But regardless of how bad the East is i think the Cavs still make it to the 3-4 seed at least and the 2nd round. Nothing but rings counts anymore, a finals appearance is a drain on Lbj once again. Yes maybe the young guys benefit from a deep playoff run but they need to be thrown in the water and either sink or swim with SOME help from lbj, not a full-on rescue mission everytime. This plan is for the long term, not moral victories.

 

[JCliff24Participant]

 As an athlete unless my team is mathematically eliminated from a playoff race I would never take it easy and not think about winning it all. You work your entire life to get to the NBA, are in category to win 50+ games with only a handful of teams and you don’t want to try and win? Go play checkers.

[JCliff24Participant]

 As an athlete unless my team is mathematically eliminated from a playoff race I would never take it easy and not think about winning it all. You work your entire life to get to the NBA, are in category to win 50+ games with only a handful of teams and you don’t want to try and win? Go play checkers.

[Bmore_DCParticipant]

This is a tough one. I may be looking too much into it, but did you guys read Lebrons letter? He mentioned how he was excited about helping some of the young guys develop (waiters, etc.) but never mentioned Wiggins name. I thought that was a little strange considering he was the #1 pick this year. 

Of course a Waiters, Bennett, Thompson, and picks sounds like a better deal. But if you could just trade Wiggins and some other salary filler to make it work, i might wanna keep Waiters. I think his game will compliment this roster with his shooting and play making.  

I know everyone is saying Wiggins will be the defensive stopper needed, and im a HUGE wiggins fan. But isnt his position similar to Lebrons? I think i would take this lineup:

Irving/Waiters/LBJ/Love/AndyV 

over this lineup:

Irving/Wiggins/LBJ/Thompson/AndyV

YES Wiggins is a nice prospect but if youd rather have him than Love, then where is the scoring coming from on this team?

[Bmore_DCParticipant]

This is a tough one. I may be looking too much into it, but did you guys read Lebrons letter? He mentioned how he was excited about helping some of the young guys develop (waiters, etc.) but never mentioned Wiggins name. I thought that was a little strange considering he was the #1 pick this year. 

Of course a Waiters, Bennett, Thompson, and picks sounds like a better deal. But if you could just trade Wiggins and some other salary filler to make it work, i might wanna keep Waiters. I think his game will compliment this roster with his shooting and play making.  

I know everyone is saying Wiggins will be the defensive stopper needed, and im a HUGE wiggins fan. But isnt his position similar to Lebrons? I think i would take this lineup:

Irving/Waiters/LBJ/Love/AndyV 

over this lineup:

Irving/Wiggins/LBJ/Thompson/AndyV

YES Wiggins is a nice prospect but if youd rather have him than Love, then where is the scoring coming from on this team?

[KHAM83Participant]

You’re absolutely right, as great a prospect Wiggins is, you have to trade for the known commodity in Love. And the perceived need for Love, you may need to just give in to Minnesota’s demands. Wiggins, Bennett, picks are a steal for Minnesota and no way they turn it down. 

Irving/Waiters amazing shooting around Lb, Love/Verajo. Thompson can be your first big off the bench backing up both the 4 and 5. Delanova first guard backing up both the 1 and 2. 

 

 

[KHAM83Participant]

You’re absolutely right, as great a prospect Wiggins is, you have to trade for the known commodity in Love. And the perceived need for Love, you may need to just give in to Minnesota’s demands. Wiggins, Bennett, picks are a steal for Minnesota and no way they turn it down. 

Irving/Waiters amazing shooting around Lb, Love/Verajo. Thompson can be your first big off the bench backing up both the 4 and 5. Delanova first guard backing up both the 1 and 2. 

 

 

[drpg913Participant]

I don’t even think you need to give them any picks in that deal. 

[drpg913Participant]

I don’t even think you need to give them any picks in that deal. 

[drpg913Participant]

All this not trading Wiggins for Love reminds me of LeBrons first go around in Cleveland when they didn’t want to Trade JJ Hickson for Amare Stoudamire  which in retrospect just sounds idiotic. If you can get another top 10-15 player in his prime then why wouldn’t you? This seems like the exact same mistake they made the first go around. If the Bulls do get Gasol then they have to be consider the favorite in the east assuming Rose remains healthy and the Pacers can keep lamce or upgrade him/hibbert.

[drpg913Participant]

All this not trading Wiggins for Love reminds me of LeBrons first go around in Cleveland when they didn’t want to Trade JJ Hickson for Amare Stoudamire  which in retrospect just sounds idiotic. If you can get another top 10-15 player in his prime then why wouldn’t you? This seems like the exact same mistake they made the first go around. If the Bulls do get Gasol then they have to be consider the favorite in the east assuming Rose remains healthy and the Pacers can keep lamce or upgrade him/hibbert.

[GrandmamaParticipant]

You just put JJ Hickson on the same level as Wiggins.  Obviously Wiggins is only a rookie, but he’s got the upside to be a superstar.  Hickson never had that same upside.

 

They definitely should NOT trade Wiggins under any scenario.  If at the very least he can develop into a 16-18 ppg scorer mixed in with elite defending, then the Cavs are set up very nicely for multiple championships.  They have the best player in the world and a top 10 PG who still has room for improvement.  Minnesota isn’t in any position to demand players, not when every team knows they can’t resign him.

 

Like I said before, Minnesota will get about the same return that Orlando got for Howard.  They aren’t getting Wiggins, so don’t get your hopes up Wolves fans….and if you guys do by some miracle snag Wiggins, then consider yourselves extremely lucky.

[drpg913Participant]

I’m not comparing the players I’m comparing the situations. At that point in JJ Hicksons career he was considered a project. He showed some promise and they were thinking he would develop into a real player. Amare was already a proven star who had been to the conference finals and was on a team that won 50+ games. In this case Wiggins is a project with some promise and Love is a proven player.

Also the Cavs are looking to add somebody with a big name because you don’t add Mike Miller for a rebuild and if you’re Mike Miller you don’t want to take less to join a rebuild. 

[drpg913Participant]

I’m not comparing the players I’m comparing the situations. At that point in JJ Hicksons career he was considered a project. He showed some promise and they were thinking he would develop into a real player. Amare was already a proven star who had been to the conference finals and was on a team that won 50+ games. In this case Wiggins is a project with some promise and Love is a proven player.

Also the Cavs are looking to add somebody with a big name because you don’t add Mike Miller for a rebuild and if you’re Mike Miller you don’t want to take less to join a rebuild. 

[GrandmamaParticipant]

You just put JJ Hickson on the same level as Wiggins.  Obviously Wiggins is only a rookie, but he’s got the upside to be a superstar.  Hickson never had that same upside.

 

They definitely should NOT trade Wiggins under any scenario.  If at the very least he can develop into a 16-18 ppg scorer mixed in with elite defending, then the Cavs are set up very nicely for multiple championships.  They have the best player in the world and a top 10 PG who still has room for improvement.  Minnesota isn’t in any position to demand players, not when every team knows they can’t resign him.

 

Like I said before, Minnesota will get about the same return that Orlando got for Howard.  They aren’t getting Wiggins, so don’t get your hopes up Wolves fans….and if you guys do by some miracle snag Wiggins, then consider yourselves extremely lucky.

[ExumInfernoParticipant]

First off, its beyond me why they had to trade a pretty good back-up center in Tyler Zeller and why the didnt try to dump an Alonzo Gee($3m) or Carrick Felix($1m) or Scotty Hopson($1.4m) instead? Also why’d they have to give up a 2016 1st rounder to boot in tandem with a desirable asset like Zeller? I’d really like an explanation on that if someones got one.

I will have a try at that.  The Nets wanted Jack, and with little to send out they traded away Thornton.  So Thornton’s salary had to go somewhere and few teams had space available or trade exceptions big enough.  Zeller and the pick were the price for moving out Thornton.  Thornton would have been better for Boston than Jack as well, as Thornton only has one season to go on his contract, although it is bigger than Jack’s for that season.  Gee and Hopson are both supposed to be traded to, one to Charlotte and one to New Orleans.  

Cleveland move out a pick, which should be around 28, and a center who is young but not someone ready to start next to LeBron, and maybe the Cavs get the room to sign LeBron plus they get the veteran center Haywood plus they may end up with Austin Rivers or Ajinca.

 

 

[ExumInfernoParticipant]

First off, its beyond me why they had to trade a pretty good back-up center in Tyler Zeller and why the didnt try to dump an Alonzo Gee($3m) or Carrick Felix($1m) or Scotty Hopson($1.4m) instead? Also why’d they have to give up a 2016 1st rounder to boot in tandem with a desirable asset like Zeller? I’d really like an explanation on that if someones got one.

I will have a try at that.  The Nets wanted Jack, and with little to send out they traded away Thornton.  So Thornton’s salary had to go somewhere and few teams had space available or trade exceptions big enough.  Zeller and the pick were the price for moving out Thornton.  Thornton would have been better for Boston than Jack as well, as Thornton only has one season to go on his contract, although it is bigger than Jack’s for that season.  Gee and Hopson are both supposed to be traded to, one to Charlotte and one to New Orleans.  

Cleveland move out a pick, which should be around 28, and a center who is young but not someone ready to start next to LeBron, and maybe the Cavs get the room to sign LeBron plus they get the veteran center Haywood plus they may end up with Austin Rivers or Ajinca.

 

 

[Author]

Posts