[OhCanada-Participant]

Now there are numerous reasons why all of our Mock Drafts are wrong…We dont know who is declaring, we dont know the draft order, sometimes we are just plain wrong within our predictions, but there is one I have sen occurring frequently that I completely disagree with and will show my reasoning towards why.

Many of the mock drafts Ive seen have not been "Best Player Available", but instead have been based on how the mock drafts creator predicts each team selecting.

what I am trying to get at is…If you believe Cleveland would select Kyrie Irving over Derrick Williams with the 1st overall draft pick you are wrong.

I am not even saying that Williams is for sure a better player then Irving, all Im saying is that it does not make sense for Cleveland to select Irving over Williams. This selection has almost as much to do with Baron Davis and Antwaan Jamison then it does with the actual two prospects. Lets take a look at my reasoning.

1-Positional Flexibility and Needs-Cleveland’s strongest position is either PG (Baron Davis and Ramon Sessons), or PF(Antwaan Jamison, J.J. Hickson), with its weakest positions being SG, and SF. Irving, Davis, and Sessions have not proved to have a skillset to play the 2position efficiently at the NBA level, while Jamison has proved able to play the 3 and 4 positions, Hickson has played the 4 and a small 5 for Cleveland (although he is a true 4), and Williams who has been compared to Jamison as far as versatility and skillset goes has proved to have the range and athleticism to be a 3 in the league, (maybe not as efficient as playing the 4 though).

2-Developmental Mentoring-Antwaan Jamison was the posterchild for consistency for the NBA during his stay with the Wizards. He was perhaps the most underrated player in the league during his best days and was a great leader for his team (until Arenas came and messed it all up lol). Jamison and Williams would be able to spend alot of time on the floor together considering they are both hybrid forwards. Baron Davis has had his work ethic questioned lately in his career, although early in his carer he was a fiery competitor and one of the best PG’s in the league at that time. His weight, conditioning, and polish is an annual issue coming into training camp and preseason. It is unlikely that Baron Davis would be a so called "bad influence" on Kyrie Irving, but I am sure that issue would not even be brought up with Jamison and Williams. Him and Kyrie would spend very little time on the court together.

3.Team Contracts- While both contracts are extremely expensive they differ in years remaining. Davis is owed $28-Mil in 2 years, while Jamison is owed $15-Ml in 1 year. Whichever player is drafted by Cleveland would be expected to start immediately and help this team win games, and it would not be wise to bench Baron Davis, for 2 years with that salary. Washington took that risk with Wall and Arenas last year and immediately traded off Arenas for Rashard Lewis (which was a great trade). Unless Cleveland would be able to rade Baron for lets say a Rip Hamilton drafting Irving would make no sense.

4.Cleveland’s Second Lottery Pick-Im sure most people reading this are aware Cleveland obtained the LA Clippers 1st round draft pick this year in the Mo Williams, Baron Davis trade. Before selecting Kyrie Irving people should take notice at 3 PG’s who could very well be available at the time of this picks selection. Many people are not even in full belief that Kyrie Irving is a better player then Kemba Walker or Brandon Knight and those 2 along with Jimmer Fredette could be available for Cleveland to select. Also Alec Burks who maybe able to play a bit of PG coul also be available for Cleveland. As far as wings go Vesely, Jones, and Leonard have nowhere near the same potential as Williams, and other then Vesely also do not project to be as good as Walker, Knight, or Burks in the NBA.

Williams would get more minutes, play a role that needs to be filled for Cleveland, have a chance to become their go to scorer which they need, have a better mentor, and a brighter future for this team. Stop putting Irving first in your mock drafts unless it is best player available and you think Kyrie is best.

[Toronto16Participant]

Isn’t Cleveland trying to trade Baron?

[nateoak10Participant]

 And wasn’t there a report earlier of the Cavs wanting Kyrie?

[Im Your FatherParticipant]

Ok, the Cavaliers suck, point blank. They are in absolutely no position to be drafting based on team needs, and it’s not like they envision Baron Davis as a huge part of their future. They will absolutely be drafting the BPA and a lot of people, my self included, think that that’s Irving. 

[M-DYMESParticipant]

If you dig hard enough you can find a "report" that says whatever you damn near feel nowadays.  With a combo bleachreport, blogs, and writers who will write a whole synopsis on a topic given on word hinting towards a conclusion.  Unless you hear it straight out the horse’s mouth, take everything with a grain of salt.

[OhCanada-Participant]

What our saying is judging by watching NCAA tournament games, and watching Kyrie and Derrick play Kyrie is the clear cut best player available in this draft. Thats just plain wrong.

[goneParticipant]

Since when was Jamison a good mentor he doesnt play defense and floats around the perimeter…I don’t want him mentoring anybody just because he is nice doesnt mean he is a good teacher

[SwatLakeCityParticipant]

 @churchboy, They should be and probably are but no team was willing to take Baron’s contract while he was with the Clippers and they won’t want to know. There is no sympathy and not very many teams will just take on that ugly contract just because they feel sorry and also not many teams want to even have him. The Cavs would still be smart to select to take the reigns once Baron retires but they can get better value than Irving at the first pick. If the Cavs get the first pick then they would be smart to select Derrick Williams with that pick and then with the 8th pick they can go for Kemba Walker or Brandon Knight whichever one is available. But if I were Cleveland I would select Kemba with the 8th pick before I would go for Knight.

I see Knight as a late lottery pick (10-14 range) Kemba is in the mid lottery (6-10 range) to me, the first pick depending on the order should be either Derrick Williams or Kyrie Irving.

I’ve been agreeing with this post for a long time and my mock has already been changed. The Cavs would be smart to not select Irving over Derrick Williams

[OhCanada-Participant]

Sessions and Davis have proved to be able to run the point in Cleveland. They ave no go to scorer, lack in wing players, and lack in scoring in general. What would make them need a playmaker, 3 capable PG’s and have only Jamison at SF for 1 last year. That would be a bad basketball decision in my opinion and y GF is from Cleveland, I feel for this city the way they lost lebron, I hope they make the rght decision here if given the oppurtunity.

[lalailaParticipant]

i think at this point we should discuss who is just a better prospect not who is better fit… remember there is 75% won’t get first pick

[JRdaFilipinoParticipant]

Alright heres my two cents as a supporter for Irving over Williams:

1. Positional flexibility and needs: I would take the risk of the Irving manning the point than the Davis/Sessions duo any day. Also, JJ Hickson is Cleveland’s future 4. Selecting Williams, a player with similar size (both 6-9) and build.. how exactly would that work? Hickson at the 5? Williams? Thats your Center and your power forward both at 6-9. It can be argued that that lineup could work but neither have the savvy to man the middle as an undersized center on a night to night basis.

2. Developmental mentoring: This specific topic is not really a major significance… because who knows what kind of impact Jamison could have on Williams or Davis to Irving… both are seasoned NBA vets, one could even argue that Davis is the better winner, connecting on game winners on numerous occasions as well as taking down a no.1 seed in the playoffs while with the Warriors. 

3. Team contracts: another topic not of major significance because who knows that the Cleveland front office plans to do.. they could trade away Jamison because of his expiring contract yet the same thing could be said for Davis. 

4. Clevelands 2nd lottery pick: Okay, now this is a major point of debate… true, if Cleveland selects Williams they could still end up with a very good point guard prospect in either Kemba, Jimmer or Knight… but heres my thing…. Irvings is simply on a different level than any of those 3 point guards as an overall prospect, Williams on the other hand, in my opinion at least, is on the same boat as other power forwards such as Sullinger, Kanter.. not taking anything away from the sensational season Williams has had but if I missed out of Derrick Williams I wouldnt be that upset knowing I could have Kanter or Sullinger instead.. Irving on the other hand is the TOP point guard prospect.. i am a huge Kemba Walker fan and I’m so happy for him but no way is he a better prospect than Kyrie Irving. I would much rather select Irving and take my changes and hope to land Sullinger or Kanter, or Vessly or Motiujunas would be a nice back up option but no other point guard prospect in this class touches Irving.

[JRdaFilipinoParticipant]

Crap, forgot about Sullinger coming back.. my bad 

[OhCanada-Participant]

I feel if Williams gets drafted by Cleveland he would play a similar roe to Jamison as a hybrid forward and start at SF. Im not in favor of Williams playing SF but still think thats what would happen.

[OhCanada-Participant]

Wouldnt Brandon Knight be a betterfit on this team then Kyrie Irving anyways. Good defender, good scorer, can play off the ball, and play a small SG.

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

If the Cavs go with Williams at 1, they might go with Alec Burks at 8 if he is still there.  My new mock has them taking Jeremy Lamb who is a very solid shooting guard prospect if he decides to declare for the draft.

If the Cavs take Williams then it is probably BGA (best guard available at 8). 

I think that Perry Jones is the real wild card here.  He has a ton of talent and upside, a lot of it might depend on his workouts.  He could go anywhere in the top 10.

 

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

OhCanada! We know you are desperate in your hopes for the Raptors to draft Kyrie Irving. You are dying for the opportunity and want to do everything in your power for it too happen. But, with that being said, do not delusion yourself that Kyrie Irving is probably a fantastic pick for the Cavs. Yes, we know that Baron Davis will be there, and that they have some other options, but so what? Irving blasts them all out of the water, and other than Baron, they could easily be traded or likely could play with Kyrie. The whole Jamison being Williams mentor? Well, while I agree that Antawn was unique and a scoring talent, his defense throughout his career has been incredibly poor (see Garnett, Kevin last years play-offs). Not to mention, he is in the last year of his contract and could be a tradeable asset seeing that he is an expiring contract.

Baron is not a player I would rely on for a rebuilding team, he is hurt constantly and I would not be surprised if he is possibly bough out. In my mind, and I think even your mind (though your Raptorhood may not allow you to admit it for anyone other than Toronto picking first), Kyrie Irving is this draft’s likely top prospect. Cleveland has two picks, and I am starting to get the feeling that Kemba Walker and Brandon Knight are likely gone by their second pick in the draft (likely 8-9th pick). In my mind, Cleveland should go with the best player available, regardless of positional need. They honestly need help at EVERY position, and getting a possible franchise PG is a fantastic start. If you think Williams is a better player, go with him, but you do not at all sound confident ("I’m not in favor of Williams playing SF but still think thats what would happen.").

The reasons Mock Drafts are wrong right now are plentiful, but Irving and Williams going 1 or 2 is probably as good of a start you can get at this point. I think if Cleveland gets the pick, they should and more than likely will take Irving. You take the best player and not a position of need, especially when you can improve at every position like Cleveland. You do this even at 8, where some possible wing players will be available.

Finally, here are some better reasons why Mock Drafts are wrong:

• They try to see which players would fit in best at a need position. It is almost like they start a list from the end rather than the beginning.
• They are more concerned about a certain team getting better than another one, and therefore just hope that player slips to a team of their choice.
• They group everyone in a group of generalizations ("All skinny big guys are like…..", "All Euros are like…..", "All players compared to so and so are like…..")
• They do not have a realistic or educated idea on exactly who is entering the draft at this point
• They assume certain players are going to be reached for due to positional need rather than choosing the best prospect or player available. It happens, just not as often as people seem to have it happening. Just because a team is weak at a position, it does not mean they do not want to improve at a position where they may have some younger players. Trades happen.

[B FreeParticipant]

@ohcanada I have never heard someone say a small SG as a good thing

[OhCanada-Participant]

I would rather the Raptors select Kanter then Irving so please stop it. Minnesota and Sacramento would pick Irving anyways an I think Toronto will end up 5th in the draft lottery. Im not high on Irving but Im very high on Derrick Williams. This has nothing to do with Toronto selecting Kyrie thats just absurd…

[OhCanada-Participant]

• They try to see which players would fit in best at a need position. It is almost like they start a list from the end rather than the beginning.
• They are more concerned about a certain team getting better than another one, and therefore just hope that player slips to a team of their choice.
• They group everyone in a group of generalizations ("All skinny big guys are like…..", "All Euros are like…..", "All players compared to so and so are like…..")
• They do not have a realistic or educated idea on exactly who is entering the draft at this point
• They assume certain players are going to be reached for due to positional need rather than choosing the best prospect or player available. It happens, just not as often as people seem to have it happening. Just because a team is weak at a position, it does not mean they do not want to improve at a position where they may have some younger players. Trades happen.

Seems you are targetting o let me clear some things up…

There is no clear cut number 1 option this year unless you are delusional and believe Irving is the next Chris Paul.

I did not hope any player slips at all unless you are talking about Kanter slipping past Washington. I have Cleveland picking Williams who I think is the best player, Minnesota picking Kyrie because I doubt Rubio plays for them and because he is the 2nd best player, washington picking Jones because they have a void at SF and love athletisism and potential, and Toronto picking Kanter because they have such horrible size.

Im currently arguing that "generalization" in another thread saying that all energy players are alike, and by no means think all Euro’s are alike or I would not have Toronto selecting Kanter. I may think Motiejunas is a bit like Bargnani but that is because he is weak, skinny, tall, not strong enough to get off his post game (yet), and going to be a perimeter oriented player early in his career.

I have a pretty good idea of who is entering the draft although noone will know until the deadline towards declaring is done.

When two players have the same apparent value and neither stands out from the other team need breaks the boundry between which player should be selected. Other things such as simply which player fits in with the team most and we saw this with New jersey last year selecting Favors, Minnesota picking Johnson, and Golden State picking Udoh.

Trades happen…and it is much easier to trade Jamison then iot is to trade Davis.

Come on why are you hating? Really are you that mad I disagree with irving going 1st overall?

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Just trying to go in to the mind of Bonner. Do not take it as such. I do like Irving ahead of Williams though, and do not think that Cleveland’s choice is that easy. I am not targeting you with everything in my list also, that was VERY general. Just was something I noticed from most show and tell mock drafts ("Look at mine", "Mine is the goodest", etc.) posted on here. Sorry if you took it as such, I was making a definite general statement and was not hating. I just thought their might be a little more to your choosing of Williams for Cleveland :). You have to admit, you are quite Raptorscentric, and if I remember earlier in the year, you were dying for them to choose Kyrie. Guess that has changed, my bad, but my stance for Cleveland is the same.

Also, the ability to trade Jamison to me is not a sign for either player. I just think it could be a sign that the wing position may be addressed, and they actually do not have a horrible young front court. Not good, but not as bad as their wing. Guys, when I address something it is not always because I hate you. Really. If I do, than I would let you know. I am not saying that your post was awful or anything, you have an argument, I have one as well. Just thought their might be an ulterior motive, and I guess I was wrong. My bad.

[OhCanada-Participant]

Okay just thought that list was adressed to me because everything else was…I would like the Raps to draft Kyrie but I think Kanter would be nicefor the Raptors team as ell and doubt Irvig will slip past Cleveland, Minnesota, and Sacramento. I also want to see how Bayless plays down the stretch this year, I think he is going to have another big game against New York tonight and should take over that starting PG spot (not saying much). Vesely could also be a very good selection for the Raptors and I think if they draft Perry Jones Jones could become a bust here.

[butidonthavemoney]

Perry Jones would be a mistake for Toronto and as much as I love Jan Vesely, I don’t think he’s a good fit either. I’m a big fan of Kanter, and I do think he would add a missing element to the frontcourt of Toronto.

I also believe that Irving has to be the top pick for anyone besides Washington. He’s a pure point guard with no weaknesses in his game (unless you think he’s injury prone). He’ll provide leadership, defensive intensity, efficient scoring, shooting ability and he’ll make his teammates better. Baron Davis hasn’t proven he can do any of that consistently and Ramon Sessions is a solid backup/fringe starter on a good team, at best.

[HaleParticipant]

Who do you think Washington should draft? I haven’t paid much attention to them and obviously like you said they don’t need a pg.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Also OhCanada, even you admitted that Irving would more than likely be the pick for Cleveland. I am cool with you liking Derrick Williams, but if someone else is the more likely pick for that team, why not put them there? I mean, you might have Derrick Williams higher on your draft board, but that may not mean Cleveland takes him. Come the day you make your Mock Draft for the Draft Contest, are you going to put Williams there out of spite if you think Irving is going to be the pick? That is why I think the title of this thread is very misleading. Also, just because Cleveland has the best odds I am not giving them the first pick just yet. It has been a while since a team with the lowest odds ended up choosing #1. I agree with Ron that Washington is probably the one team that would not take Kyrie #1 though.

[butidonthavemoney]

Washington has to take Derrick Williams if they get the first overall pick. I like his offensive ability next to McGee, and he’ll be able to run a lot of plays with John Wall. Plus, I’ve never been a fan of Andray Blatche.

[OhCanada-Participant]

When did I say they will probally take Kyrie (not excluding the fact that I said it lol). Im saying they wont with this thread. Just my own opinion I guess you guys are entitled to yours and Im entitled to mine. The thing one thing I do love about Kyrie is the fact that he has no glaring weakness. He s not particularly great at anything either but he is a good all around player. With Rose you have turnover and defensive issues, Westbrook has turnover and had shooting issues, even Derrick Williams has position issues and size issues.  That is extremely huge and something that cannot be stressed enough, a player with very little to worry about when you throw him on the court is very rare. Really I think cleveland would pass up on Kyrie and pick Derrick because they need a go to scorer, an athletic player to bring fans in their seats, they lack in the wing position, Davis has contract issues and he has more upside imo. I was going to make a thread asking what people think, and which one they thought would go first,but thought throwing my own thoughts out and starting somewhat of a debate would be more bold ha. Nice to hear your opinions.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Hey man, you are being bold, no doubt, but when you say "I doubt Kyrie will slip past Cleveland, Minnesota and Sacramento", I kind of took that as you conceding. I guess maybe you meant he would not slip past all of those teams, but I took it as you maybe saying that Cleveland would take him. I see where you are coming from with Williams, but I still think that this is not yet a coin toss and that Irving is in the lead. Their are other runners in the race, for sure, but he is looking like the one to beat. 

[kobyzParticipant]

why Cleveland will take Kyrie Irving over Derrick Williams:

at PG position Cleveland have Baron Davis who is not in their future plans and Ramon Sessons who is more suitable to a backup role!
and at PF position Cleveland have J.J. Hickson who is their best talent on the team!

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