[frogmanParticipant]

With the Superbowl tomorrow and Peyton looking for his second ring in his third superbowl after winning his 5th MVP I was wondering what you value more when deciding the GOAT.

I am of the opinion Peyton is the greatest QB of all time just on the eye test as well as the stats he has to back it up whether he wins this one or not.  Just how I believe Lebron is at the very least the 2nd best basketball player I have ever seen (Not including Wilt or Russell or anyone from that era as I have never seen them play a real game).

But watching NFL Game Day Deion Sanders and Kurt Warner stated that regular fans like me don’t understand how much winning is the biggest thing for them when determining the all-time players.  Deion even said he didn’t even take John Elway seriously till he went back-to-back at the end of his career.

I have been seeing various people say Tom Brady is better than Peyton because he has 3 rings even though Brady has much inferior stats and had much more help in his career than Peyton had at the Colts.

So my questions to you guys is what do you value more stats/eye tests or rings, and how many rings do you need to be considered the GOAT?  And if not Peyton who is the greatest QB of all time?

 

 

 

 

[llperez]

you have to be an intelligent fan with the ability to view each player individually regardless of rings or not. I don’t follow football well enough to give an accurate opinion on who is the goat. But I know I don’t think flacco deserved 22 mill per because he won a ring. And I sure as hell don’t think Russell Wilson is somehow a top 15 qb just because the seahawks made the superbowl.

[frogmanParticipant]

 Russell Wilson is easily a top 15 QB.

[frogmanParticipant]

 Russell Wilson is easily a top 15 QB.

[llperez]

you have to be an intelligent fan with the ability to view each player individually regardless of rings or not. I don’t follow football well enough to give an accurate opinion on who is the goat. But I know I don’t think flacco deserved 22 mill per because he won a ring. And I sure as hell don’t think Russell Wilson is somehow a top 15 qb just because the seahawks made the superbowl.

[HaleParticipant]

In football you are only 1/11 players on one side of the ball. In basketball you are 1/5 and play both offense and defense so the rings argument should be slightly more important for a basketball players career. However, I’m more of the opinion that winning rings are more of an "icing on the cake" kind of deal. Dan Marino was definitely better than John Elway ever was. Brett Favre won one ring and Aikman/Bradshaw won quite a few and I’d say they were two tiers below him. I’d take Manning over Brady without thinking about it. Before LeBron got his rings he was still a far better player than tons of stars who’d won some. It just sucks that the media think rings are the most important thing which is why Elway gets top 10 QB ever talk, Aikman made the Hall of Fame as a glorified game manager and why Eli Manning will likely make the Hall despite being completely mediocre.

[TallmanNYCParticipant]

 I’d go a lot stronger than that for football. During a normal football game the QB has about 40 teammates play meaningful and significant minutes. During 55% of the game (defense and special teams) the QB isn’t even on the field. Also, football, of all the major sports, is, I believe, most influenced by the coaching staff.  It is silly to throw Rings that heavily into the discussion. 

[TallmanNYCParticipant]

 I’d go a lot stronger than that for football. During a normal football game the QB has about 40 teammates play meaningful and significant minutes. During 55% of the game (defense and special teams) the QB isn’t even on the field. Also, football, of all the major sports, is, I believe, most influenced by the coaching staff.  It is silly to throw Rings that heavily into the discussion. 

[HaleParticipant]

In football you are only 1/11 players on one side of the ball. In basketball you are 1/5 and play both offense and defense so the rings argument should be slightly more important for a basketball players career. However, I’m more of the opinion that winning rings are more of an "icing on the cake" kind of deal. Dan Marino was definitely better than John Elway ever was. Brett Favre won one ring and Aikman/Bradshaw won quite a few and I’d say they were two tiers below him. I’d take Manning over Brady without thinking about it. Before LeBron got his rings he was still a far better player than tons of stars who’d won some. It just sucks that the media think rings are the most important thing which is why Elway gets top 10 QB ever talk, Aikman made the Hall of Fame as a glorified game manager and why Eli Manning will likely make the Hall despite being completely mediocre.

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

But watching NFL Game Day Deion Sanders and Kurt Warner stated that regular fans like me don’t understand how much winning is the biggest thing for them when determining the all-time players. Deion even said he didn’t even take John Elway seriously till he went back-to-back at the end of his career.
————————————————————————————

The funny thing is that I don’t really think winning is the biggest thing when determining the all-time players EXCEPT at the QB position.

I’ve never seen Emmitt Smith (3 titles) or Franco Harris (4 titles) rated on the same level as Jim Brown, Walter Payton (1 title each) or Barry Sanders (no titles).

Anthony Munoz is often regarded as the greatest OT of all time (and Walter Jones is up there too) and neither of them ever one a single title. John Hannah is widely considered the greatest OG of all time and Dwight Stephenson is often considered either the best or second best C of all time and neither of them won a title. Dick Butkus is considered by some as the best defensive player of all time and he never won a title. Reggie White is considered the greatest DE of all time with 1 title and the guys universally considered the #2 and #3 (Deacon Jones and Bruce Smith) never won a championship. LT is usually considered the best OLB in history even though Jack Ham and Ted Hendricks are great players with four Superbowls each to Taylor’s two.

QBs are often held to a different standard than the other positions because they have the ball in their hand every offensive snap and are often seen as the leaders of their team. But that standard may not be entirely fair.

For the record I think Johnny Unitas is still the greatest QB of all time even though I never saw him play. What he did as a play-caller and passer in an era much more difficult passing wise than the modern game is immensely impressive. It’s hard to keep stats in perspective between different eras because the current era is so passing heavy but Manning is probably the greatest QB I’ve ever seen play (going back to about 1987). I’d probably put Joe Montana and Brett Favre above Tom Brady, and I’d put Elway and Steve Young near Brady’s level with Drew Brees and Dan Marino just behind.

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

But watching NFL Game Day Deion Sanders and Kurt Warner stated that regular fans like me don’t understand how much winning is the biggest thing for them when determining the all-time players. Deion even said he didn’t even take John Elway seriously till he went back-to-back at the end of his career.
————————————————————————————

The funny thing is that I don’t really think winning is the biggest thing when determining the all-time players EXCEPT at the QB position.

I’ve never seen Emmitt Smith (3 titles) or Franco Harris (4 titles) rated on the same level as Jim Brown, Walter Payton (1 title each) or Barry Sanders (no titles).

Anthony Munoz is often regarded as the greatest OT of all time (and Walter Jones is up there too) and neither of them ever one a single title. John Hannah is widely considered the greatest OG of all time and Dwight Stephenson is often considered either the best or second best C of all time and neither of them won a title. Dick Butkus is considered by some as the best defensive player of all time and he never won a title. Reggie White is considered the greatest DE of all time with 1 title and the guys universally considered the #2 and #3 (Deacon Jones and Bruce Smith) never won a championship. LT is usually considered the best OLB in history even though Jack Ham and Ted Hendricks are great players with four Superbowls each to Taylor’s two.

QBs are often held to a different standard than the other positions because they have the ball in their hand every offensive snap and are often seen as the leaders of their team. But that standard may not be entirely fair.

For the record I think Johnny Unitas is still the greatest QB of all time even though I never saw him play. What he did as a play-caller and passer in an era much more difficult passing wise than the modern game is immensely impressive. It’s hard to keep stats in perspective between different eras because the current era is so passing heavy but Manning is probably the greatest QB I’ve ever seen play (going back to about 1987). I’d probably put Joe Montana and Brett Favre above Tom Brady, and I’d put Elway and Steve Young near Brady’s level with Drew Brees and Dan Marino just behind.

[NYK2010Participant]

 Brady is better than Manning and I can give you many stats to prove it.

Brady has a better winning pct. in the playoffs and regular season.

He’s made 5 SB’s and Manning has made 3.  Also Manning started the 1st game from his rookies season and has played in 15 seasons.  Brady started in his 2nd season after a couple of games and has played 12 seasons.  Manning has better weapons around him just look at the Colts WRs & TEs Harrison, Wayne both HOF players.  Dallas Clark was a stud receiving TD too.  At RB he had Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James and on defenese he had Pro Bowl pass rushers Freeney and Mathis.  Secondary he had Bethea, Bob Sanders the latter won DPOY.  In 05 &07 the Colts had the 2nd best defense in pts allowed and Manning failed to get to the AFC Title game.  In Denver he’s had Decker, Thomas, Welker, Julius Thomas and Moreno they scored the most pts in the regular season.  In the playoffs they don’t crack 30 pts and get destroyed by the Seahawks in the SB.

Meanwhile Brady wins 3 SBs with no name WRs and TEs.  Everyone wants to say it was the defense which is wrong.  They gave up the tying TD to the Rams with 2 mins left, gave up a 4th qtr go ahead TD to the Panthers, blew 2 4th qtr leads in the last 2 mins to the Giants or else he’d have 5 rings.  Also Brady has lost his All Pro Tight End the last 3 years in big games due to injury.  Manning has all his WRs, TEs, RBs healthy.

Manning is under .500 in the playoffs while Brady is 18-8.

As for regular season goes when Brady had an All Pro WR in Moss he put up 50 TDs and he plays in Massachusetts.  Manning played in a dome for 13 yrs and is a horrible cold weather QB.  Manning threw a pick 6 in his 2nd SB and another pick 6 yesterday.  He has what 4 INTs in 3 SBs while Brady has 1 INT in 5 SBs.  Head to head Brady has beating Manning 10 times in 15 games.  Neither QB can run or scramble but Brady has more rushing TDs in big spots and is obviously better than Manning.  Stats are nice but when you are basically running your offense and loaded with weapons you will put up a lot of pts. If you put Aaron Rodgers behind Denver’s OL with those weapons guaranteed he puts up sick numbers too same goes for any elite QB.  Anyway with all those record breaking stats he won 13 games just 1 more than last year.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 .

Also when you say Marino is better than Elway what are you basing that on.

Elway had teams with horrible defense and made 5 Super Bowls and won 2.  Marino could never beat the Bills in a big spot and lacked success in the playoffs.  Of course he threw it he played in Miami and he was the offense much like Manning.  

 

 

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

Having a better winning % is not necessarily an indicator of a better player or QB. Do you consider Otto Graham the greatest QB in football history? Do you think Terry Bradshaw is better than Dan Marino, Fran Tarkenton or Dan Fouts?

You’re trying to make it seem like Brady had no help winning his SBs while Manning has had all the help in the world. Truth is they’ve both had their share of talent. The Patriots defense and ST had a lot to do with their superbowl wins. In 2003 they allowed the Panthers to have a big game but they allowed the fewest points in the regular season carrying the team to a 14-2 record and home field advantage throughout the playoffs. In 2001 you criticize the defense for allowing the Rams to score a TD with 2 mins left instead of crediting them with holding one of the greatest offenses in NFL history to 17 points. In 2004 they held the Eagles to 21 points and forced 4 turnovers after finishing second in the league in points allowed

In the last several years the Pats defense hasn’t been great and despite Brady having lots of targets and putting up great stats they haven’t won a SB in 9 years. So really both QBs prove how difficult it is to win a SB without a top defense.

Here’s the simple truth of the matter – offensive weapons help good QBs to put up elite numbers, Manning has had top weapons most of his career while Brady has only had top weapons since about 2007. However top defenses help QBs win Superbowls, Brady had top defenses at the start of his career while Manning only had a top defense in 2005 and 2007. Yes Manning had an awful game last night but he still would have had to put up about 35 points against Seattle’s dominant defense in order to pull off a win (taking into account the safety and the int return that was on him).

It’s not about the stats, a lot of it is about the eye-ball test. Manning throws the deep ball better than Brady, the intermediate ball better than Brady, has better accuracy, has a stronger arm, has the quickest release I have ever seen and calls his own plays at the line of scrimmage more than any other QB of the modern era.

And finally I don’t say Marino is better than Elway, you seem to have misread that

[NYK2010Participant]

 You obviously don’t watch the NFL if you think Manning has a stronger arm than Brady.

Neither throws a good deep ball now but Brady’s % are great under 10 yds better than Mannings.

Also Manning had a top 5 defense in 2012 if comparing them at least get the numbers right.

Look at the wins from 07-12 for Brady when he’s the offense he’s had a great numbers and win % too.

Defense lost him 2 leads in the last 2 mins of 2 SBs or else no one would be talking about this even.

You failed to mention the Pats defense giving up 29 pts to the Panthers in 03 or 34 to the Colts in 06.

Its not like they were the Steel curtain defense and last I checked Brady had game winning drives in 2 SBs.

Meanwhile Manning has 2 pick 6s and the only SB he won the opposing QB threw 2 picks in the 4th qtr.

 

 

 

[NYK2010Participant]

 You obviously don’t watch the NFL if you think Manning has a stronger arm than Brady.

Neither throws a good deep ball now but Brady’s % are great under 10 yds better than Mannings.

Also Manning had a top 5 defense in 2012 if comparing them at least get the numbers right.

Look at the wins from 07-12 for Brady when he’s the offense he’s had a great numbers and win % too.

Defense lost him 2 leads in the last 2 mins of 2 SBs or else no one would be talking about this even.

You failed to mention the Pats defense giving up 29 pts to the Panthers in 03 or 34 to the Colts in 06.

Its not like they were the Steel curtain defense and last I checked Brady had game winning drives in 2 SBs.

Meanwhile Manning has 2 pick 6s and the only SB he won the opposing QB threw 2 picks in the 4th qtr.

 

 

 

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

Having a better winning % is not necessarily an indicator of a better player or QB. Do you consider Otto Graham the greatest QB in football history? Do you think Terry Bradshaw is better than Dan Marino, Fran Tarkenton or Dan Fouts?

You’re trying to make it seem like Brady had no help winning his SBs while Manning has had all the help in the world. Truth is they’ve both had their share of talent. The Patriots defense and ST had a lot to do with their superbowl wins. In 2003 they allowed the Panthers to have a big game but they allowed the fewest points in the regular season carrying the team to a 14-2 record and home field advantage throughout the playoffs. In 2001 you criticize the defense for allowing the Rams to score a TD with 2 mins left instead of crediting them with holding one of the greatest offenses in NFL history to 17 points. In 2004 they held the Eagles to 21 points and forced 4 turnovers after finishing second in the league in points allowed

In the last several years the Pats defense hasn’t been great and despite Brady having lots of targets and putting up great stats they haven’t won a SB in 9 years. So really both QBs prove how difficult it is to win a SB without a top defense.

Here’s the simple truth of the matter – offensive weapons help good QBs to put up elite numbers, Manning has had top weapons most of his career while Brady has only had top weapons since about 2007. However top defenses help QBs win Superbowls, Brady had top defenses at the start of his career while Manning only had a top defense in 2005 and 2007. Yes Manning had an awful game last night but he still would have had to put up about 35 points against Seattle’s dominant defense in order to pull off a win (taking into account the safety and the int return that was on him).

It’s not about the stats, a lot of it is about the eye-ball test. Manning throws the deep ball better than Brady, the intermediate ball better than Brady, has better accuracy, has a stronger arm, has the quickest release I have ever seen and calls his own plays at the line of scrimmage more than any other QB of the modern era.

And finally I don’t say Marino is better than Elway, you seem to have misread that

[HaleParticipant]

Peyton Manning 

Regular season-5532/8452 (65.5%) 64964 yards (7.7 YPA) 491 TDs (5.8%) 219 Ints (2.6%) Passer Rating of 97.2

Postseason-572/889 (64.3%) 6589 yards (7.4 YPA) 37 TDs (4.2%) 24 Ints (2.7%) Passer Rating of 89.2

5x MVP, 10x All Pro (7 1st Team)

 

 

Tom Brady

Regular season-4178/6586 (63.4%) 49149 yards (7.5 YPA)  359 TDs (5.5%) 134 Ints (2.0%) Passer Rating of 95.7

Postseason-590/950 (62.1%) 6424 yards (6.8 YPA) 43 TDs (4.5%) 22 Ints (2.3%) Passer Rating of 87.5

2x MVP, 3x All Pro (2 1st team)

 

If you have the gall to say John Elway, a QB who had one more touchdown pass than interceptions 10 seasons into his career is better than Dan Marino because he won more Super Bowl’s you have no right to judge football players ever. Oh and you know that whole Manning sucks in cold weather thing? He nearly won back to back MVP’s playing in Denver, while breaking the TD pass and yardage record. Plus not only did Manning start earlier when it was historically harder to pass, he’s a year older and still way better than Tom Brady is right now.

 

 

[HaleParticipant]

Peyton Manning 

Regular season-5532/8452 (65.5%) 64964 yards (7.7 YPA) 491 TDs (5.8%) 219 Ints (2.6%) Passer Rating of 97.2

Postseason-572/889 (64.3%) 6589 yards (7.4 YPA) 37 TDs (4.2%) 24 Ints (2.7%) Passer Rating of 89.2

5x MVP, 10x All Pro (7 1st Team)

 

 

Tom Brady

Regular season-4178/6586 (63.4%) 49149 yards (7.5 YPA)  359 TDs (5.5%) 134 Ints (2.0%) Passer Rating of 95.7

Postseason-590/950 (62.1%) 6424 yards (6.8 YPA) 43 TDs (4.5%) 22 Ints (2.3%) Passer Rating of 87.5

2x MVP, 3x All Pro (2 1st team)

 

If you have the gall to say John Elway, a QB who had one more touchdown pass than interceptions 10 seasons into his career is better than Dan Marino because he won more Super Bowl’s you have no right to judge football players ever. Oh and you know that whole Manning sucks in cold weather thing? He nearly won back to back MVP’s playing in Denver, while breaking the TD pass and yardage record. Plus not only did Manning start earlier when it was historically harder to pass, he’s a year older and still way better than Tom Brady is right now.

 

 

[NYK2010Participant]

 Yeah he’s great in cold weather outside of the Titans game how many games did he play in cold weather.

He did nothing against the Pats in NE it was all Moreno with over 200 yds rushing and the defense forced 3 turnovers in the 1st half.

Get a clue, Brady was voted most clutch by NFL players too.

Put Manning on the Pats this year and lets seem him sniff 12 wins.

Breaking the yds and TD record means very little.  Next year Brees can break the passing yds record and Denver did play the NFC East the worst conference.  Good luck getting anywhere near 55 TDs next year w/out Decker and having to face the NFC West.

Look at Brady’s numbers when they actually had some weapons and primarily a passing team 07-12 then talk.

Meanwhile the Colts and Broncos w/Manning have always been a passing team basically. 

 

 

 

[NYK2010Participant]

 Yeah he’s great in cold weather outside of the Titans game how many games did he play in cold weather.

He did nothing against the Pats in NE it was all Moreno with over 200 yds rushing and the defense forced 3 turnovers in the 1st half.

Get a clue, Brady was voted most clutch by NFL players too.

Put Manning on the Pats this year and lets seem him sniff 12 wins.

Breaking the yds and TD record means very little.  Next year Brees can break the passing yds record and Denver did play the NFC East the worst conference.  Good luck getting anywhere near 55 TDs next year w/out Decker and having to face the NFC West.

Look at Brady’s numbers when they actually had some weapons and primarily a passing team 07-12 then talk.

Meanwhile the Colts and Broncos w/Manning have always been a passing team basically. 

 

 

 

[NYK2010Participant]

 Brady is better than Manning and I can give you many stats to prove it.

Brady has a better winning pct. in the playoffs and regular season.

He’s made 5 SB’s and Manning has made 3.  Also Manning started the 1st game from his rookies season and has played in 15 seasons.  Brady started in his 2nd season after a couple of games and has played 12 seasons.  Manning has better weapons around him just look at the Colts WRs & TEs Harrison, Wayne both HOF players.  Dallas Clark was a stud receiving TD too.  At RB he had Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James and on defenese he had Pro Bowl pass rushers Freeney and Mathis.  Secondary he had Bethea, Bob Sanders the latter won DPOY.  In 05 &07 the Colts had the 2nd best defense in pts allowed and Manning failed to get to the AFC Title game.  In Denver he’s had Decker, Thomas, Welker, Julius Thomas and Moreno they scored the most pts in the regular season.  In the playoffs they don’t crack 30 pts and get destroyed by the Seahawks in the SB.

Meanwhile Brady wins 3 SBs with no name WRs and TEs.  Everyone wants to say it was the defense which is wrong.  They gave up the tying TD to the Rams with 2 mins left, gave up a 4th qtr go ahead TD to the Panthers, blew 2 4th qtr leads in the last 2 mins to the Giants or else he’d have 5 rings.  Also Brady has lost his All Pro Tight End the last 3 years in big games due to injury.  Manning has all his WRs, TEs, RBs healthy.

Manning is under .500 in the playoffs while Brady is 18-8.

As for regular season goes when Brady had an All Pro WR in Moss he put up 50 TDs and he plays in Massachusetts.  Manning played in a dome for 13 yrs and is a horrible cold weather QB.  Manning threw a pick 6 in his 2nd SB and another pick 6 yesterday.  He has what 4 INTs in 3 SBs while Brady has 1 INT in 5 SBs.  Head to head Brady has beating Manning 10 times in 15 games.  Neither QB can run or scramble but Brady has more rushing TDs in big spots and is obviously better than Manning.  Stats are nice but when you are basically running your offense and loaded with weapons you will put up a lot of pts. If you put Aaron Rodgers behind Denver’s OL with those weapons guaranteed he puts up sick numbers too same goes for any elite QB.  Anyway with all those record breaking stats he won 13 games just 1 more than last year.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 .

Also when you say Marino is better than Elway what are you basing that on.

Elway had teams with horrible defense and made 5 Super Bowls and won 2.  Marino could never beat the Bills in a big spot and lacked success in the playoffs.  Of course he threw it he played in Miami and he was the offense much like Manning.  

 

 

[NYK2010Participant]

Btw Lebron has a ways to go to be the greatest of all time.

By that I mean he just has to do it over a longer period of time.

Obviously Lebron is a complete player can pass, rebound, score, shoot the 3, mid range, post up game, can pass and defend with anyone in the league. He just has to do it in the playoffs more and in the clutch.  He had 2 Finals that weren’t good in 07 & 11 and the 2010 Conf. semis weren’t good either.  However his great regular season play and the last 2 playoff runs have made him an all time great player.

Magic, Bird, Kareem, MJ, Russell, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan all won more rings.  Obviously he won’t get 8 rings but he definitely needs to get 4 to be in the conversation.

I know rings don’t mean everything since guys like Horry won 7 and Kerr 5 and they weren’t HOF players.

If he gets another MVP and Championship he’ll def. move up the list of all time greats.

[NYK2010Participant]

Btw Lebron has a ways to go to be the greatest of all time.

By that I mean he just has to do it over a longer period of time.

Obviously Lebron is a complete player can pass, rebound, score, shoot the 3, mid range, post up game, can pass and defend with anyone in the league. He just has to do it in the playoffs more and in the clutch.  He had 2 Finals that weren’t good in 07 & 11 and the 2010 Conf. semis weren’t good either.  However his great regular season play and the last 2 playoff runs have made him an all time great player.

Magic, Bird, Kareem, MJ, Russell, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan all won more rings.  Obviously he won’t get 8 rings but he definitely needs to get 4 to be in the conversation.

I know rings don’t mean everything since guys like Horry won 7 and Kerr 5 and they weren’t HOF players.

If he gets another MVP and Championship he’ll def. move up the list of all time greats.

[Author]

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